Welcome to this forum. I cannot imagine how disappointed you must be after scoping out this amp and learning that it is no longer available.

The SE34I.2 was inspired by the original ZEN design, single ended, dual mono, but with more power than the 2 watt SE84C.

If dual mono is most important to you then a TORII MK III, MINI TORII, or SE84ZTM monoblocks would fulfill this. Or you could have 2 SE84C or ZEN SELECT units wired for mono.

If SET is the most important to you, and you want the same power the SE34I.2 had, a pair of SE84C+ or ZEN SELECT units wired in mono would be as good.

On the other hand, if you are not set on SET, the TABOO with a CSP2+ unit would be a great system.

Fireblade, welcome!

It's news to me that the Integrated is being discontinued. . .that's too bad as I entertain sometimes the idea of having one again someday. There have been several offered here in the last few months and possibly elsewhere, they do come up used for sale as many move from the Integrated to a Torii, or to other amps.

Two other points: the push-pull Torii does NOT sound like a push-pull that you can imagine. It sounds very close to the single-ended Decware sound. There's an nearly model that every now and then shows up that had 12 watts per channel that may be perfect for you.

And there are the mono-d Zen amps to consider, and the excellent Zen Monoblocks. Also, with 95db speakers, you may be able to drive them very well with the Select or the other Zen amps, or the Taboo. I don't quite understand the "degradation due to too many interconnects." It would in fact be just the same amount of interconnects, one per channel, one left, one right. . . . The amps can be set side by side and you shouldn't need any extra length of interconnect.

Anyway, best of luck in your quest. There ARE Decware options, as I'm sure you'll discover when you talk to Steve.

Well, in my opinion, though there are differnces between the triode and pentode modes in Decware amps, and push pull and single ended, they are not as represented in other manufacturers, but in fact differing windows from the same room. I find Decware push pull amps to be quite similar in sound to the triode single ended ones, so I would say that being locked into the idea of the "EL34 SET Class A signature" is in fact limiting oneself considerably.

I also feel that with the efficiency of your speakers (and I know there are other factors such as crossover type) you may well be able to get by with the Zen amps. And I must say, as wonderful as I've found the EL34 amps, the low powered SV83/EL84 amps actually have the potential to be the very best sounding of the Decware amps. The speed of the smaller tube in this circuit makes for amazing detail and soundstage. The EL34 amps I moved to because they offered more power that I needed (at the time speakers with about 91 db  in a large room) and I listen to many different recordings, many of which don't sound that great, and in comparison to the SV83/EL84 amps the EL34 amps are a bit more forgiving and euphonic with lousy source recordings. In fact the SV83/EL84 amps may deliver what you're looking for in the EL34 amps. And when the SV83 tube is used, the Hazen Grid Mod is in effect. . . . These amps also have input gain adjustment and can be used without a preamp.

The "Select" is really an amp that no longer exists, which is now in improved form as the SE84ZS, which page is accessible via the catalog: https://www.decware.com/newsite/SELECT.htm
Why it is not on the tube amp page, I don't know, the SE84ZSM Monoblocks also are only accessible via the catalog page. These amps CAN be run without a preamp quite capably. Preamps do add to the sound, and I had to divest myself of the "adding a preamp and interconnects to the system means sonic degradation" thinking. That may well be true of many makes and models, but not when using the Decware preamps such as the CSP2+ or the ZSTAGE (a reportedly excellent line stage preamp that is more affordable). These preamps really do contribute far more than you imagine you might lose. They're a cut above anything else I've used. If you look in the "articles" Steve writes about the use of a preamp, and I think also in the owner's manual or product page for the preamps.

The real best advice I can give you is to talk to Steve about your system, your room, your musical tastes and equipment tastes and let him advise you. NO ONE knows more about the amps and their implementation than Steve and his advice is SOLID. He's also one of the easiest persons on the planet to talk to. I recommend getting him on the phone when you can!

Thank you Lon and Rivieraranch for your support.  Indeed, found the literature on those. These are essentially cosmetically upgraded versions on the SE84C+.  I think I could live with SE84C+ bridged monos, provided I would not need a preamp and I get around 6 W/c on 8 Ohm speakers.

Apparently, that's the deal with these, according to the Catalog script. Except, my source, a USB/DAC does not have any power (passive), it takes what it needs from the laptop. Therefore, I am not sure if the no-preamplifier advantage applies in this case.

I feel it's still a setback of $255.00 to get essentially the same thing as the ES34i.2+, isn't it?  

Regarding PP vs SETs, I just know it's a lot easier to build a good Class A Triode SET than a similarly successful PP Triode Class A . So, in general, the tradeoff is quality sound for power and bass control. I'm not implying Decware's PP have not been able to pull this through though, which may be the reason of Steve's success.  I just want to ensure the best sound quality I can afford.

Good to hear about the SV3 sonic attributes on the SE84C+.  I guess I will just need to speak to Steve about the options left.  Thanks again guys for your kind assistance.  BTW Lon, I read in one of the threads you are also a biker, good for you. I'm 61, practically retired, but still run a 2009 CBR1000RR (Fireblade) very fast, on weekends.  Good music sound and biking are my two passions.  Take care!

 

So that's where the handle "Fireblade" comes from. Yes, I'm a rider, don't have a car. Won't say I'm a "biker" though as I don't follow the "lifestyle" in any way.

Personally I don't think it's accurate to say those two Zen SE84 amps are "only cosmetic upgrades" to the Zen C+. Each of them use different parts and have improved sonics, that's the consensus among owners. And the Decware push pull sound IS different than any other I've heard. I've had four separate single ended Decware amps. . . but I would still choose my Torii for my use over any of those, that's in my opinion the best amp I've ever had, for many reasons, and I don't feel I lose anything significant over a single ended amp. . . with my speakers and sources.

Your instinct may be right about the need for a preamp. I don't use computer audio, but both Donnie here and I have found that from an iPod there is more gain needed to bring to amp up to volume. If you want to get everything right the first time you may want to consider a preamp, the ZSTAGE or CSP2+ (I don't feel the latter is "colored") and any of the amps. But again, Steve is the best source of compatibility information.

I'm a cruiser the last few decades. My need for speed has slowed down. I've got the perfect bike for my needs now and my knees never get close to the ground. What I like most is long trips, but I'm not a fairing or windshield user, I love the air and grit.

You know, I still think it's possible with 96db speakers one Zen amp would power your speakers, and maybe you could afford a C+ and a ZSTAGE. That would be a fine system! Steve would know.

I'm eager to hear what you decide, hopefully after talking to Steve. Hoping you join the Decware clan soon!

Taboo 2.3 volts for full output

SE34I.2+ 2.5 volts for full output

I personally won't call the latter an integrated because a lot of sources will not drive it to full power (if the specs are correct).

Also, I don't understand why you will not buy one just because it will be discontinued.

Lin

I see, I took it to mean that at some point in the (near?) future it would no longer be available.

I went the other way around, Lon. From a Cruiser (Moto Guzzi, BMW R1200C) to sportsbikes (Fireblade, Kawi, R1, Fireblade again).

I thought about the single SE84C+ with the assistance of a preamp to boost the input gain and overall output of the little guy, but I'm not sure if my 95 dBs will allow that (listening room is small though).

Ha Ha! ... Ride-On Donnie, good points (especially the Van stuff .. hehe!). Good point on the output voltage check on my USB/DAC: 2.25V full scale output.  Apparently barely enough by itself?

opnly_bafld, those specs contradict literature from Steve on this same site, as noted in my previous post.

Regarding your assumption of my resistance to buy the SE34i.2+, its not. I actually tried to buy through the site and the link was disabled. Sent an email and that was the answer I got from Sarah.  

I would love to be able to get my hands on one of those, as per my needs. Furthermore, I think it is such an important niche, I asume Steve will be replacing it with an upgraded version anytime now (maybe prices will go up with an "upgrade")

Again Lon, your suggestion of a single SE84C+ aided by a preamp (has to be the CSP2+, the ZStage is a Kit and I would not touch it!), makes sense. I read Steve mentioning the boosting properties of this preamp on all Decware amps. Is that right?  Take care now ...

A single Zen SE84C+ and a ZSTAGE would be right around $1200. From all I have read here I think that would do great for you.

I am running a ZEN SE84C+ from 94 db efficient speakers with a 2.5 volt source and I can't turn the volume all the way up without the sound level being uncomfortable.

When I run the ZEN with my 89 db efficient speakers and a 2.0 volt source I can turn it all the way up. It is loud enough and the sound has weight and body.

The MINI TORII would have no problem with a 2 volt signal either  

I ran a ZEN up at DECFEST with a ZSTAGE through 89db efficient speakers and it was incredible; the sound had a lot of weight, authority and control.    

Well, just be careful on that Fireblade. I backed off on speeding around because of the danger component. Exactly a year ago I could have been killed when struck from behind by a pickup truck while I was STOPPED waiting to make a left-hand turn.:)

The ZSTAGE is NOT a kit. I guess you were referring to the chassis/box. I agree that the CSP2+ may be a better choice (that huge transformer does something and so does the tube regulation, and you can individually adjust each channel, so you have a very good balance control, and it's BEAUTIFUL) but the ZSTAGE is a fully-assembled fully-realized preamp from the builder.

I really think if you have a small room and aren't partially deaf that with 96db speakers a C+ and a preamp will do you fine. The only real drawback would be if the speakers had a very complex crossover network.

It's time to call Steve!

Hi Lon, thanks for your continued support. I know there are risks involved, as everything in life. I've had my share of accidents (one in particular, out of which I was able to walk away, very fortunate indeed.) But you know, I do it with brains and technique, so I don't take stupid chances. Granted, you may not control the other variables, but that's part of the fun out of it. The adrenaline is such a high!

You are probably right about the CSP2+, it would be great, but I think redundant in my case, and too expensive.  The speakers I'm ordering are 95 dBs (not 96) but according to Steve's suggestions in the site, that puts them right in the middle of the ideal range (94-96).

Sarah indicated Steve would be back from holidays by Jan 3rd, so that's when I will be making my final decision.  Good riding ...

Well, ride carefully as well. I just don't get the high from the speed any longer. Happens. . . age makes changes. I may or may not be older than you.:) Happy trails!

Guys, I had forgotten this and I'm sure you will know the answer:  I usually complement my system with a SUB (Velodyne 60 Watts, decent performance) for the lowest frequencies.  

Now my question is how would I go about connecting it to the SE84C+, as I do not see any SUB OUT in back.  I do not see PRE OUTs either (it does not have a Pre anyway). These connections are RCA (mono or L+R, respectively). Those are about the only ways I have connected my SUB in the past

I know some people hook an extra pair of speaker wires from the power amp's speaker OUT (L+R) and connect them to the SUB's speaker input binders.  My SUB has an active XOver to pre-determine the cut-off frequecy to process only those low frequencies, but I have not used it via speaker terminals, so I'm not sure.

Have you guys done it this way with Decware gear? Could you explain?  Thanks again for your support.  Later ...

Fireblade,
I have my sub hooked up with speaker wire to the high level inputs. Seems to work pretty well plus you get a little "Tube lovin'" from your main amp. I'm thinking about getting real serious with the sub thing and having ZYGI build me a Imperial SO this coming year. That should put a little rumble in my neighborhood.

hi fireblade,  i often use my 84c+ to drive my 95 db efficient audio nirvana 12s. small very irregularly shaped room.  i do use a csp2.  also use a zbox i just got from lon (thank you, lon).  the zbox seems to eat up some output power so i do have to turn up the whole kit and caboodle to keep up loud sounds.  my experience is that the zen is reaching the limit of it's strength without the csp2.....my experience may be being influenced by my unwillingness to turn the zen all the way up.  just me?? so at that point i hook up my pre-owned se34.1 (highly modded by steve to be basically a power amp.  do not know the power output.  just forgot to ask steve.  mystery to me.  just know that decware has started to pull me out of my profound state of audio ignorance......possible suggestion: there is a feature on audiogon  that allows one to  list one's interest in a particular item.  go to the decware section, find the wanteds and proceed.  good luck, don

Fire:

Before buying my little ZEN SE84C+ in October I owned a TABOO and a MINI TORII. I must confess that the SET magic of the little ZEN amp took me by surprise. Not that it is "better" but different in a certain captivating, involving way. For example, I took two weeks off for the holidays and brought the ZEN home rather than leave it at the office.  

Now I am thinking of someday acquiring another ZEN to create monoblocks, or two ZEN SELECT SE84ZS to monoblock, or the ZEN SE84ZTM MONOBLOCKS with the tube regulation. I might just do it.  Therefore, I think you are on the right track to begin with an SET amp. I should have.      

Thank you, Don Pettit. Now this is not good news. My listening room is small also and somewhat irregular (opening on one side) 15' x 10', so I may need more power also (same 95dBs).  Unless the Nirvanas have a complex crossover and/or an odd impedance curve.

I don't understand the ZStage consuming output power? I thought the whole idea of that box was to increase gain and to boost the amp's output/dynamics/performance, with an added tube flair. How come it is doing the opposite?

I think that adding a 2nd ZEN in a 2-monos config should be even better than adding a preamp to a little guy like the Zen. I mean, it does not need really any further tube flavor, what it needs is a buddy to carry the load!  Although the gain stage of a CSP2+ helps (as should the ZStage), there's no substitute for power in this case.  And it's even cheaper ... Am I wrong here?

Thanks ang good listening!

Hi Jason, thanks for joining in!  You may be right on the first assumption, but it seems to me these are two distinct niches:

1. The Mini Torii is a technological show-case (the jewel of the house). Boasts all kinds of engineering tricks, including miniature dimensions. It's like two Zens sharing the same chassis, but with many non-standard features. Only 4 W/c (8 Ohms)

2. The Zen Triode is a classical SET amp, which when bridged provides 4 W mono (8 Ohms). With larger tubes this power goes to 6 W mono. Sharing the same chassis, these two monos act like an integrated amp.  More power and convenience, no extra features but without the need of a preamp.  Classic design integrated SET.

Regardless of pricing, these are distinct offerings to satisfy different needs.  I bet the new chassis is part of an upgrade, as you said, and maybe a price increase justification over the SE34i.2+.  I doubt and hope this model won't be discontinued indefinitely.

That's just my ill-informed guess, so take it with a grain of salt. I like the Mini-Torii but I can't jump on it before talking to Steve about my real options. He's coming back after the offer has expired, but cé la vie!

Take care now ...

Hi Lon, thanks for pointing that out. It seems I keep confusing all this weird names .. He He..! (maybe Alzheimer's is getting close?  HOPE NOT!!)

Indeed I meant the ZBox. Just replace that name where appropriate in my previous discussion, thats exactly what I was trying to say.  

BTW, my ex BMW R1200C will become a classic in due time, just because of the odd and unique style (and 1st and last Cruiser from BMW). I purchased the first one that came out in 1996/7.  The R90 was similar to one of my first bikes, a Moto Guzzi 850 T (1975 model). God I'm old!!  Cheers,

Hey Fire.  You are right in that the Torii platform is technologically different that any of the true SET's.
Quite honestly, if I was trying to choose M Torii vs Integrated, I'd like to have an integrated myself.  In fact, I would trade my first gen Torii for an integrated.
I started off in Decware land with a Torii because of the power but along the way I did have a Zen Select for a while to compare it to.  Had to have one just to make sure I wasn't missing something.
I owned another SET along the way too.
In the end the bigger Torii's won out as being best overall amp.

I hope if the integrated lives on it will be on the new platform with the OA3 regulation added.
I will be sorry to see it leave if it doesn't return.

Hey Jason, what exactly is the OA3 regulation? I'm glad you like your big Torii. Have you had the opportunity to compare the Zen Triode (SE84C+) with your Zen SELECT? Are there great differences? I think Lon mentioned that this was kind of an upgraded version of the Zen Triode?  I'm curious about these upgrades.

Regarding the integrated, I hope Steve offers some fast replacement at reasonable prices.  Also, could you tell me exactly why you think the big Torii is a better amp overall (other than power)?  

I hear you Lon, and agree with both statements. Later ...

Interesting ... I had heard of tube rectifiers (AC to DC), which are supposed to improve the amp's performance relative to SS rectifiers. Never heard of tube regulators. No susprise, I'm a neofyte in this field. Thanks ...

Got it! I'll check on that, thanks ...

Hi Jason. Got it! Thanks. Would that mean, then, that the Zen (relative to the Torii) is less involving?  How much less involving would you say?

I made some back-of-the-envelope calculations to check the effect of lower nominal impedance and higher sensitivity of my future speakers, relative to my current SS setup at 50 W/c.  Anyway, it's amazing, to say the least! I wanted to attach an image for you to check it out, but the system would not allow it.

The results show a single amp (SE84C+) putting up about 73 W/c equivalent to my current setup, and 128 W/c also equivalent to my current setup, when 2 monoblocks are used.  This is the best argument to release the doubt of a SET's real power.

For this reason, I'm changing my speakers' order from the M-Lore (8 Ohm, 95 dBs) to modelt81 (4 Ohm, 95 dBs). Decor wise (my wife is going to kill me!), the former were much better (narrow, tall, fitting), but the latter ones (bulgy, ordinary cubes) ROCK!

Jason, I'm sorry to squeeze the issue, but I think it is important. Let me know what you think about the less involving feeling you have experienced with the SET's, if you will. Thanks for the info.  Later ...

Cool. Well, I'm looking forward to hearing what Steve has to say. He may throw you a curve ball that will let you hit one out of the park.:)

Ok, I'll fill in a little more here.  I guess it would help to know that the current speakers I'm running are the HDT's.  Full range, crossoverless.   With the small amps, they do everything extremely well, but on a lot of recordings, they sound lean and thin nad you think to yourself hmm, something is missing.   What took them from 'gee that sounds good' to 'Wow!!' was the extra power of the bigger amp and most important the treble cut that the Torii offers.
Other speakers will have different requirements.

I guess I would describe it is like this, with a Zen C you will likely have to choose or tweak speakers to find the best match.  With a Torii, you can match the amp to just about any reasonably efficient speaker.  I look at it as the more expensive amp costs you less in the long run if you don't end up swapping speakers to find that holy grail combination.

Also, don't forget that speaker crossovers steal a lot of power.  that's why most of us try to eliminate or minimize them.

Lon, I agree it's would be nice to have an integrated at that same price point.  It might be possible, becuase if the plates cost less than the old style box, that savings could be applied elsewhere like regulation.  

At any rate, we need to have our opionions heard.  
Steve!!!   Don't drop the integrated, we think it should stay!

If it appears that there is sufficient interest in an SE34I.3 EL34 SET Integrated, DECWARE would probably keep making it.  

Their business model is based upon their love of audio. As a company they don't introduce models to achieve a certain pre-determined profit margin. In many instances, they roll out a new piece of audio just because they can. Take the MINI TORII for example. Steve took a look at an old 6V6 amp that became the inspiration for the MINI.

If he wanted, he could take the SE34 design and configure it into  monoblocks with tube regulation on the outputs. But the integrated would accomplish the same goal; SET sound but with with higher power.      

Just want to mention: Steve's treble cut circuit is not in the signal path, if I understand what he's written it simply allows you to redirect some of the high frequency information as a shunt to ground. No sonic degradation, just a reduction in output of that information. Works brilliantly, and makes about a third of my collection far more listenable. A godsend for me as I want to be able to hear mediocre and worse recordings with enjoyment, and I can.

I think I had read it somewhere in the site too, but it is just difficult to understand how it's filtering the signal without affecting it.

I guess he uses some kind of mini-resistor to cut-off/shunt only the extreme highs (according to the level of tone control set by the user).

Not easy to do right  ..  That's why the majority of amps that offer tonal control offer either signal manipulation (with agreed loss of signal attributes in the process) or music direct (untouched signal path.)  The user has the choice by pressing the button called music direct (to bypass this filtering process).

What is important is that you feel you're not loosing sound quality, and that means the objective has been attained.

FB, these are all excellent points the guys are making.  Speaker matching for the little Zens is so critical.  Can be a PITA, and possibly more expensive.  Unless, of course, you choose right the first time.  Seems to me you are doing your due diligence.

For a Zen and small room, you need:
-Sensitivity and friendly impedance, just to get your foot in the door.  95db/w would be the minimum to me.  The Tekton appears to be a good match, worth considering.
-You also need either very smooth off-axis response (can anything beat an ERR?) or controlled directivity.  This will help keep overall power response at your ears true to the source.  I'm not convinced the Tekton measures up here (the tweet will have much wider dispersion that that big woof in the crossover region), and would probably require more extensive acoustic treatments for the room and care with placement to sound it's best.

That's just a partially informed wild eyed guess, never heard the Tektons.  And my ears are probably shot from listening to those big ol horns all these years.  (By the way, if you can find some old Klipsch Quartets, they work splendidly with Zens in small rooms.  Forte ll, too, if they'll fit.)

FB, note that the ZBOX will likely improve the sound of any source you pair it with before a Zen amp, but. . . it won't "boost" the sound as it will not add any gain. ZSTAGE or CSP2+ will.

"The most concerning uncertainty right now is exactly what you're disclosing: Impedance dynamics and directionality (the last one should be of less concern in smaller rooms though)."

I disagree with either being of less concern.  Friendly impedance is perhaps more fundamental in planning a system, but speaker behavior is where the rubber meets the road.  

"It's curious to note that I have not been able to find higher than 95 dBs at affordable prices (either that, or they are too big for my needs)."

For new speakers of the controlled directivity/horn type with high sensitivity (higher than Decware's offerings) check out Pi Speakers.  Very inexpensive kits for the DIYer, and finished products at still reasonable prices.  I have no idea what their return policy is.  They are in Tulsa, Oklahoma.  Is that close enough for an audition?

"I guess I'm just running a calculated risk here with the Tektons model 81t."    

If you are planning on having them veneered, the cost is pretty close to the Decware DM945 (https://www.decware.com/newsite/DM945.html), which has a striking similarity to the Tekton (but is much sexier looking), and you can rest assured of it's compatibility with Decware amps.  (Yeah, that's homerism, but this is the Decware forum after all!)  

   

 

Decware, Tekton, and Pi all have similar 30 day return policies with restocking fees, for non-custom finishes only.  The DM945 already has gorgeous veneer work, but I think that's a custom option for the Tektons, which may overrule any return.  Can you live with flat black?

The 8.1t and Decware DM945 would probably present similar room interactions with their similar driver complement.  Either would likely prove to be high-value, Decware-amp-friendly speakers, if not cost-no-object perfection.  

Alternately, you could try the controlled directivity approach.  The similarly priced 3 Pi would be more sensitive (good option should you go with a single SE84 or Select).  Wayne (owner of Pi) is quite familiar with Decware amps and several of his customers use them.  The 3 Pi is pictured here on their home page:

http://www.pispeakers.com/contents.html

I suppose my horny bias is showing through, but I've had great results with the approach.  

"3. The DM945 is 94 dBs vs 95 dBs on the 81t. Note, this last dB is a deal breaker, as the consensus on these forum discussions has been not to go under that 95 dB limit figure for the Zen Triode (it should be 96, BTW)."

I'm not sure if Decware actually measures or calculates based on driver measurements, but 94 dB 1w/1m is believable given the drivers used.

Again based on the drivers used I'm pretty sure the Tekton's are rated at 2.83v/1m which with 4 ohm drivers will give a 3 dB advantage over 1w/1m (ie 95 becomes 92dB).

Comparing the stated specs from various manufacturers is usually like comparing apples to oranges because of differing measurement techniques.

Ok, while I check the sensitivity measurements issue, let me ask to any of you possible current or previous owners of the SE84C+ /DM945 (or DM944) combo about your impressions.

I'm particularly concerned by the relatively limited volume on the DM945 box.  If I have a preconceived notion that's blurring my judgement on the DM's, in relation to their potential synergy with the Zen Triode, I need to know it, and hopefully make a better decision.

Again, thanks so much for your support.

If you want power and authority with just two watts, I'm afraid you will have to go bigger.

You near Baltimore?  

http://baltimore.craigslist.org/ele/2779628646.html

Or NY?

http://rochester.craigslist.org/ele/2699244590.html

Or Denver?  (They're asking way too much, these have been up for a while)

http://denver.craigslist.org/ele/2754780529.html

Ok ski, same thing with the other two alternatives: too old! These were discontinued in 1996. Assuming the ones on sale are from that last production year (tough chance), they are 15 years old minimum.

I need to clarify that I don't live in the US. My last residence there was in Chapel Hill, N.C., while getting my Ph.D. many years ago (UNC). I'm going to use an importer to bring the stuff down here, in Panama. This fact complicates matters for refurbishing old/used equipment.

This also precludes me from taking advantage of 30-day trials, as shipping back and forth this distance is prohibitive, including also double customs clearing fees.

Finally, I need to point out that I pay a mark-up of 33 % on average on every US price to have it sent to my place (shipping, customs, importer's fees, etc.)

I tried to contact Steve a while ago but he's out of the office, so I'll talk to him later.  I'll ask him about the DM945, the only suitable speaker in the Decware range within my budget.

Thanks for trying ski, I really appreciate your support.  Later ...

Yes, theoretically. In reality, local artisan skills are scarse and quite expensive. Furthermore, exotic hardwoods are now protected by law, so these are either very expensive (export) or unavailable for the common public.  Besides, it will take forever to have them done.  In the end, is still going to be cheaper bringing the cabs surface (by sea).

Had the privilege to speak to the Master: Suggested Mini-Torii & the DM945's. He explained their features and strong points. Steve seems a very nice guy, indeed.  The problem is, I agree with him, so nobody is going to defend my money  :-/

Well, I need to think about this whole issue for a little while more. BTW, according to Steve, that integrated will be back in a new chassis and probably with the power tube regulation feature, around springtime. That's a long wait for me.

I'll get back to Ben Webster et Al.  later ...

.

Our Man In Panama

The Mini Torii/DM945 combo is one that I had not envisioned. I am sure that Steve, based on what you told him, came up with that to address all your wants.

The main advantage to the Mini Torii is that with changes in tubes you might feel you have a different amp. The 6V6 tube gives a good overall presentation, well-defined soundstage with a prominent midrange and good bass. A 6L6 would open up the soundstage, make it less defined and beef up the bass. You can also play with the inputs as well. A 12AU7 is only a starting place. You could go 12AT7 or even 12AX7.

My MINI is no less than a sonic, thermionic marvel.

If you want to consider the SE84C+ again......

Not sure how you feel about single driver speakers, but I have a pair of Hoyt-Bedford Type 1 speakers (8" 8 ohm 97dB) paired with a 1.7 watt SET and they can get very loud together.

I used to have a pair of Omega Compact Hemp speakers (8" 8 ohm 96dB /same company as H-B above) that I used with my Decware SE84B, that combination also worked very well.

Lin

Riv, you know, I think he was trying to accomodate the fact that I started looking for the integrated, and he feels the Mini is even better (not as an amplifier, mind you), but in the sense that it offers so much in one package (essentially, a two mono SET in one chassis, like the SE34i.2+, but with the improved headroom stemming from the tube input stage power treatment).

He also stressed the advantages of tube rolling.  It's also reassuring that you really like your Mini.

I bought the third MINI ever produced, a prototype with a painted top plate. It was the first one made using EX transformers. At the time they were deciding which transformers to use and decided that the EX transformers went better with all the speakers. This amp came to me fully broken in and sounded divine! I ended up selling it to turn around any buy a regular factory model with the powder coat top; this was a stupid, cosmetic reason. I am needless to say very happy with the new MINI TORII I bought. The first thing that struck me about the amp was the stunning stereo separation it offered. Technically it is SEP, but it is little different from SET. It is done very well.

Thank you, Lon. You and all the guys in this great forum who have kindly supported me so far, have been instrumental in the imminent definition of a setting that I expect to enjoy for years to come.

Come on, now, your instruments' versatility is uncommon among non-professional musicians, so I think you deserve more credit than you allow yourself.  This makes me remember the tremendous joy I experienced while playing in my teen group.  I think playing in a band (good or bad) is just great fun!

You are probably right, opnly_bafld. Yet, for some reason, Steve insisted in pointing out the special Torii-like (the bigger brother PP design) headroom.  Again, I think he refers to the pristine loudness that may be possible with the input power treatment via tubes (rectification/regulation), that is not present in the Sen Triode.

It's like when he described the DM945 speakers' performance (other than the specs we were discussing about), he talked about the 'body' of the music, as a distinctive attribute from the DM's compared to other bookshelf type speakers.

I think both avenues are a great start, and I'm still considering all corners.  Thanks for pointing this out.

Mark,

Are you running the SE84 and the PMCs fullrange?
If so, have you ever listened extensively without the subs running?

Thanks,
Lin

Hi Mark. Good for you! BTW that's exactly the SUB connection I am going to use: Two Y spliiters for each DAC output, one end to the amp and the other to the low-level IN in my Velodyne, repeating for both channels. The only doubt I have is potential degradation of the signal going to the amp (SUB is of no consequence), due to the extra splitting/low quality of the commercial Y splitters.  

You sure are close to those speakers. In my current SS system and smallish room, the average sweet spot is anything between 100 to 108 inches away (8.5 to 9 ft). Your setup is almost midway between speakers listening and using headphones!

Well, if it works that good, excellent. I just couldn't be that close, I suppose. It must take some getting used to. That explains not needing any further power, as 80-85 dBs SPL should be absolutely achievable with 2 W/c and 90 dBs speakers, but is not my thing. Thanks for sharing the tip.

I take it you are using the readily available Y splitters? I'm asking because I've never seen a high quality type yet. It's great to hear you have not sensed any degradation with these.

I currently use a splitter from the mono SUB OUT in my SS amp because my low-level SUB input is stereo (+ 3dBs when using both channels). But I was unconfortable considering this same setting for the signal path from the DAC to the amp, when the time comes (have never done that, as my current amp has Mono SUB OUT).

Mark,

Do you by any chance have Rebecca Pidgeon's Spanish Harlem or something similar that for a least part of the song is just double bass and voice?

I'd be very surprised if your 90 dB PMCs will reproduce the bass cleanly at the levels mentioned with ~2 watts based on my recent experience with 90 dB single driver speaks and a 1.8 watt SET nearfield at <90 dB*. When I switched the amp to pentode (6w) it had no problems and most of the time in triode mode it worked fine.

I was just thinking your subs might be masking the rare occasions (depending on the type of music) when the SE84 may not be enough.

Lin

*I didn't have the meter out so I may have been higher than 80-85.

Oh, by the way, Lin -- before I got the subs I WAS able to get the SE84C+ to distort very badly by using it as an electric bass guitar amplifier, with the SE84C+ volume knob at max -- so when pushed hard, 2 watts just doesn't cut it for extreme low bass (but it was just fine when not pushed that hard -- at lower volumes).

And I think that experience contributed to my initial decision to see if I could successfully integrate subs into my setup.  So, again, that's a really good point that you brought up.

Lin -

So can I presume you use a sub to fill in the lower end of the spectrum?

But going back to your implied question, I guess at my nearfield 80-85dB standard listening level, I'm pulling well under one watt out of my SE84C+ -- so that may explain why I have no issues whatoever at this time from 30Hz on up.  And even though I'm not currently using low-bass orchestral samples in songs, I use some pretty low synth bass and electric guitar notes at times, and (luckily!) I've had no issues getting solid bass out of the system.  But below 90Hz, most of that is coming from the stereo HSU STF-1 subs.

I even tried playing some live low electric bass guitar notes through my system after my previous post, and they sound rich, deep, and totally solid to me at this time.  Not a hint of what I would expect to hear if the SE84C+ bass was breaking down.

Based on my original bass guitar distortion issue at max volume on the SE84C+ (before integrating the stereo subs into my system), I could have sworn that I'd need an external active crossover to filter out the low bass from going through the SE84C+ and getting to the PMC speakers.  But, luckily, I didn't.  So I'm glad I tried out this setup first before mentally dismissing it as unworkable.  Again, to my ears, it's now one of the best sounding systems I've ever heard.  But nearfield listening certainly isn't everyone's cup of tea...

Fair enough -- I'll see if I can track it down and give it a try...

It's been a bit of a pain integrating stereo subwoofers, but well worth the effort.  But to be honest, I don't think I'd be able to make subs work with speakers that start to roll off at 150Hz.

But -- out of curiosity -- with your response down about 12dB at 75Hz, have you noticed any bass performance anomalies?  And it sounds like you're using somethng other than a Decware low-wattage amp?

And don't forget the option of inserting an active crossover (like the Bryston 10B-Sub) after a DAC or preamp, and then in essence T'ing off to the power amp and the subwoofer.  That's what I thought I'd have to do to prevent what I thought would be occasional SE84C+ over-driven bass to my PMC speakers...

FB- there is some amount of pleasant harmonic texturization from the output trannys that would be passed on if you fed speaker level signal to the sub.  While not absolutely necessary, it's something to consider.

Most subs don't have any high pass filtering in either their line level pass through or the speaker level pass through, so you don't really need to waste extra cables routing things that way.  Keep it simple.

If you need to squeeze a little more out of your amp then an active crossover would come in handy, but my experience mirrors MarkBlair's.  I actually have one but don't presently use it.

Got it, ski. Thanks! I just feel wiring speakers OUT (high level) is cumbersome and prone (maybe) to more degradation?

Can we then narrow this to either the pre OUTs to low-level SUB IN (L+R) or the splitter for DAC OUT to AMP and SUB?  Which is more convenient you guys think?  

The former, when applied to the Mini Torii, incorporates some input stage tube effects and has volume in tandem with SUB (which can be adjusted further on its own, if desired).

The latter is independent of the amp (no input tube stage effects), and SUB controls volume for all low frequencies under the X-Over cutoff.

Thanks again ...

Got it, Mark, thanks. I was going to setup the SUB this way, before I learned about the other possibilities.  Now, learning from your experiences I will definitely go that way, initially.  

With respect to adjusting bass volume, I believe it must be much more difficult in a stereo bass setting. In my own mono SUB experience, the SUB's volume can be adjusted independently until you hear the level that best complements the rest of the system. That is how it works in my current setup.  My bookshelf speakers are so small I need to use the SUB's Direct X-Over at 200 Hz to get the best effect (in this setup, I'm using the SUB OUT from my SS amp).

Regarding the bass stereo effect, I was under the impression that bass is essentially mono. Presumably, it does not have to be stereo. At least that is the notion around. Evidently you seem to have experienced a different result by making the bass stereo, which is somewhat peculiar and new to me.  While surround sound applications may justify multiple SUBs, I thought two-chanel music stereo is normally complemented by a single SUB.  I'm learning every day.

BTW, in my curret SS setup (using the SUB OUT), every time I increase (or decrease) the amp's volume, the SUB's relative volume adjusts accordingly, automatically. I presume the same is true by connecting from the PRE OUTs. I would think not so when linking from the DAC.

In your case, the DAC has a volume setting and you can centralize all volume control there, but my DAC does not have that volume setting.  Mmmhhhh  ...  Should I then use the PRE OUTs instead ( to avoid having to re-adjust the SUB's volume every time I change the amp's volume?)  Is the PRE OUTs signal really volume setting dependent?

"While surround sound applications may justify multiple SUBs, I thought two-chanel music stereo is normally complemented by a single SUB.  I'm learning every day."

http://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/

Quote:


Agreed. I would love to have budget room for the Bryston, but no. And there are some well-made active crossovers that cost a bit less. Fireblade, depending on the aprpoach you take, you might want to consider one of the Paradigm X-10/20/30 units. Bob referred me to them, and so I picked up an X-30 off ebay. I am not sure if I will actually deploy it, because I am still wrestling with my own sub integration. I am getting two servo subs (Rhythmik guts) built in cabinets like my ERRs. Those won't be done for a little while. In the meantime, I am experimenting with my old Orb powered subwoofer just to see what seems to work with the system. Progress is slow, because I have very little free time this time of year, and I have some room placement challenges, and I am still figuring out the best way to take advantage of the Ultra's multiple outputs. Plus, I am tasking my subs to do double duty in both the HT aspect of my system, and the 2/5.1 audiophile side.

Anyway, there are a number of ways to go about integrating subs, as well-identified earlier in this thread. I highly recommend this series of articles on bass management and integration by the fellow from Red Spade Audio, because they will help reduce the trial & error work. I downloaded the software, procured the Behringer mike and mixer, and just started taking measurements. Having objective data to check against what your ears and brain are subjectively telling you is invaluable.

opnly_bafld, found the article, thanks.  Pale Rider, your link is broken. Could you check it out?

Anyway, the matter is much more complex than I thought. I think I'm going to experiment when the time comes.  In the mean time, I'll stick to a single SUB, linked through the DAC and will adjust the volume at both sides of the equation (amp and SUB) for volume adjustments.

If it sounds good enough, fine.  If not, I'll start researching the subject more thoroughly.  Thanks to all for your assistance.

For true venue recordings, as you call them, theoretically a stereo bass audio system (objective 2) should reflect a time delay from one side (channel) SUB to the other, unless the recording of the bass happened to be in the exact middle of the physical soundstage.

This, because lower frequencies travel much slower (relatively speaking) and true stereo should reflect the distance from the bass player to either channel.  Is this the bass stereo effect you're referring to?

When you refer to uniform bass response (objective 1), isn't it equivalent to having a single SUB that does not peak or dip relative to the rest of the frequencies (i.e., the proper relative volume setting on the SUB)?

Trying to understand this ... thanks for your patience!

Agreed, Mark and thanks!

Home brewing must be exciting ... Though I'm a wine guy myself. I wish good wine could be done at home too.

I also remember as a kid all the pocket, leather-bag small transistor radios we used to cherish.  

You know, that's absolutely right. I plan to give the basic system a chance, while trying to improve on speaker positioning, limited room conditioning and SUB placement.  After that, we'll see. I know once you get used to a sound quality level, you always want to improve on it.  As there are always opportunities (though at diminishing returns for the investment), the curiosity and  ever present aim at the wholy grail of sound is a perennial, addictive temptation.

In the end, what I enjoy most is the music, and this ought to be the objective that hopefully will help me control those urges.

Wine gives me a headache. I am a beer person. At DECFEST they serve beers that you have never heard of.

Really sorry to see this gone from the lineup.  I got one about a year ago and set it up on a finished piece of wood like in the documentation.  Great if you don't mind the "science fair" look and no one around to put fingers where they shouldn't. Sounds absolutely wonderful with a pair of Tekton 8" single driver speakers.

I have the CSP-2 or ZenHead for a pre-amp stage, but it sounds best without.

i was thinking getting another one for case mounting...oh, well  :(

Regards,
Hank

Expect the new replacement by the end of spring, according to Steve.

Hi All.  Can someone tell me how to wire two sets of speakers with 2 subs to my system?

Macbook Pro Source via Toslink > Havana DAC via RCA > CSP2+ Pre > SE84C+ > ERR's (8ohms).  Plus now have Tekton OB4.5's (4ohms) with 2 8" Tekton Subs.

Do I wire subs off the DAC RCA's with a splitter, wire the subs together from their speaker posts.  Then wire 4 speakers in Parallel from Amp, starting with 8ohm ERR's to 4ohm OB's?

Do I wire subs off Preamp Mono Sub with a splitter, then same as above?

Do I split the Stereo out of the Preamp to the subs, then same as above?

Obvious rookie here, who is easier with seeing than words...

Thank You!

Z