Well, I also did calculations on the minimum power required to run my current system with 4 Ohms, 95 dBs, to check if the single Zen Triode can pull through (same concepts, the other way around).

Results absolutely confirm it: Min required, 2.0 W/c; Redundancy (power reserve), 15.2% (from the nominal Zen at 2.3 W/c @ 4 Ohms)

Further, these results have been additionally taxed by an error round-up buffer of another 15%. Therefore, I am being very conservative, as I don't think round-up losses are that high, and my linearity assumption for the last dB (from 94 to 95, which should be exponential), is not a gross assumption (at this already steep stage of diminishing returns on the exponential function anyway).

Conclusion: A single Zen Triode definitely can do it. Now is just a matter of minimizing transmission losses (interconnects, speaker cables, Y splitters, etc.).

Room acoustics and the speakers' impedance curve are still unknown variables to confront, though. We'll see. Later ...

Dear Fireblade,

There is a very good SPL calculator for speakers at this link.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html#anchor_13115

It works for me!

BTW, wish u a Happy 2012 New year.

Regards,

Soth

Jason, very good point about the Torii being a powerful and adaptable amp that you aren't limited to speaker choices in the way you are with the SET amps. And in my opinion you really don't sacrifice sound quality. . . it's slightly different, but not inferior.

That treble cut circuit is amazing. I believe that Steve posted that it could be added to any of the amps, though I can imagine it might be difficult with the smaller ones. But I can't imagine being without one now, it's the perfect tool. I'd encourage anyone to investigate having it added when ordering, or even retro-fitted.

Very useful, nice comments from all you guys, thanks. Ron, I sure hope I can beat that ball park wall!

Hey Lord Soth, I checked your link, liked it. In my case (Zen Triode and Tekton 4 Ohm, 95 dBs), the SPL came at 95.9 dBs. That should do it, don't you think?  This is also consistent with my rough power reqs calculations using my current system as reference.  BTW, happy new year to you too, Lord Soth.

Jason, your description makes much sense and helps me understand the relative implications. Thanks for that. Also, I think I now understand better the relative contributions of the big PP amps at Decware.  Also, contrary to what I learned in the past, apparently a tone/treble control seems very welcome in many practical contexts.

It used to be anathema for an amp to process the source signal (a purist view), alluding added distosion. But the recorded media, in many cases, renders it a practical approach, I guess.

You now, Riv, I started participating in the forum desperately looking to hold on to this integrated model that I thought was ideal for me.  Now I'm reconsidering ... I mean, it is an important niche in the Decware line and all, but now I don't feel I depend on it.

I think the logical evolution path most of you have gone through, is more or less the natural and better one: Start with the single Zen Triode or two (monos), or the integrated, and then grow into the more versatile and powerful stuff. You sort of develop an appreciation for the gear as you live with it, and get ready to appreciate what's next in the line range.

Over ten years ago I still had powerful PP monoblocks (VTL 225), and loved the sound, but I always dreamed of a purist SET, especially after reading many people's comments through the years about their special sound.  Now, the integrated is two of them in one chassis, and with more power to boot! This combination is a killer. That was my reasoning when I came to the forum.

In retrospective, I guess my audio appreciation evolution path has gone in the opposite direction.  Later ...

Just a suggestion On the SE34I.2. Check out one on the used market. They do pop up. Agon, that other auction site, and here in the classifieds.

Thank you, Chris K, I've checked now and then both at Audiogon and here.  A couple of those appeared in Audiogon recently, and were gone the same day! Thanks for the tip, though

Hi ski bum, thank you for the very good points you are making. You've got me thinking now.

It's curious to note that I have not been able to find higher than 95 dBs at affordable prices (either that, or they are too big for my needs). It's also interesting to note that Decware speakers' range are 94 dBs or less, except for two (one at 95 & one at 96).

The most concerning uncertainty right now is exactly what you're disclosing: Impedance dynamics and directionality (the last one should be of less concern in smaller rooms though).

TBH, I'm not familiar at all with these specs, so I'm going to have to trust other people's experiences, as I cannot demo these.  I've looked for several well known discontinued speakers out there, like the ones you mentioned, but these are hard to get (they are sold the very day they show-up on 2nd markets).

I would hate to have to re-furbish this room, as it's been done and the wife may not like the end result either. It's not so bad in terms of acoustics, I would say (not an expert), except it has an opening on one side that connects into another room.  I guess I'm just running a calculated risk here with the Tektons model 81t, but it's as far as I can accomodate for now.

Of course, the other alternative is to go with the more dynamic Mini-Torii. It's a shame price went up recently by $200.00. Nevertheless, the SE84C+ still allows the opportunity to further increase power down the road by bridging into monoblocks configuration, if deemed required.

Finally, I have also considered adding either a ZStage preamp or a ZBox to boost the little guy up.  These choices are not something I can decide on my own, and would prefer not to go into an endless trial-and-error process to find my definitive setup.

It is thanks to input like yours that I can increase my chances of nailing it the first time around (and, of course talk to Steve soon). Appreciate. Later ...

You're right Lon, I just re-read the info. The ZStage is the one with the capability to ride the gains on both sides for improved dynamics (I keep mixing these up, sorry).

The following is an overview of my choices:

1. Zen Triode by iself
2. Two Zen Triodes in tandem (monos)
3. Zen Triode + ZStage (from my USB/DAC)
4. Mini-Torii by itself
5. Possible SE34i.2+ Replacement by itself

Speaker-wise, I'm still stuck with the Tektons model 81t, for now. Physical restrictions/decor won't allow anything else within this specs range that I know of.

If anybody wants to add comments on these choices I would be happy to read about them.

Thanks, Lon. Take care ...

You would have a return privilege on the DM945's [if you ha-ted them, which appears highly doubtful]; not sure if TEKTON has one.

Thanks to all for these interesting observations. But hold your horses now, hold your horses! I understand your enthusiasm, but let's check the facts:

1. The DM945 is a bookshelf design, and thus has its dimensional compromises. There is just so much you can do with materials and clever design, but you cannot beat acoustical physics.  These speakers are as much as 17% smaller in volume to the Tekton 81t. This is a big difference, especially sharing the same transducer size of 8".

2. The DM945's are $995.00 vs $649.00 for the 81t.

3. The DM945 is 94 dBs vs 95 dBs on the 81t. Note, this last dB is a deal breaker, as the consensus on these forum discussions has been not to go under that 95 dB limit figure for the Zen Triode (it should be 96, BTW).

One thing I cannot judge is the difference in the high frequency (tweeter) design/behavior on either models, so probably the DM945 is better.

My current speakers are bookshelf too, though even smaller.  They sound ok as per sophisticated sake-soaked birch wood baffles, in both transducers, are bi-amplified at different power for tweeters and woofers, and bi-wired by design, but are not high-end. I would not compromise sound to physical compliance.

I know the site insists the Zen Triode can move these speakers with weight and authority, but this also depends on the overall setting (listening environment). Since I may not be able to control my environment that much, the more sensitive the better, to be on the safe side.

Regarding the Pi Speakers from Tulsa (and, yes, is far away from home), I can see they propose a new, more sophisticated approach to directionality. Yet, I insist, if you define your sweet spot in a traditional system, and plan to listen within that area, the otherwise desirable omni-directionality, axis-deviation correction, etc., are less substantial an objective, especially in smaller settings. That's why it's called 'sweet spot'.

We are trying to build the best system possible within a budget, so lets invest in best bang for the buck.  My system will never be optimal, but should sound very good provided I invest smartly. BTW, Pi Speakers have inexpensive kits, but their comparable completed speaker sets are more expensive than Tekton's.

If these sound great, who cares about black finishes? Actually, black goes well in my intended setup structure, seriously.  To think about ... Later.

I see what you're saying opnly_bafld, and this is a serious (unknown to me) twist in what is supposed to be standard specs.  I will need to check with Erick about the units of measurements used in reporting their 95 dBs sensitivity parameter.

If you are right, there's a big difference and a real drawback on Tekton (deal breaker right there!)

Thanks for the warning.

opnly_bafld: I found the info on sensitivity measurements, and your poit is correct:

If the impedance is 4 ohms, then the power output would be 2.83V x 2.83V ÷ 4 ohms = 2W, rather than 1 W. Since every doubling of power is equivalent to 3 dBs, the 95 dBs rated at a theoretical 8 Ohms should be 92 dBs.

I sent a message to the designer to see how is he reporting the sensitivity on his 4 Ohms speakers, to make sure.

Thanks

Hi ski bum! Thanks for the tip. Unfortunately, I'm way far from Baltimore. Besides, buying something this old implies re-furbishing all the internals. That's a complication for me and brings up the final cost.  

I need to keep looking around, as the 8.1 T Tektons at 4 Ohms are confirmed 92 dBs (not 95 dBs as reported) at 8 Ohms.  Therefore, I'm looking back to their M-Lore at 8 Ohms and true 95 dBs.

Unless I find something at 4 Ohms at this same sensitivity, or a significantly higher sensitivity at 8 Ohms, I'll need to get two SE84C+'s, as my min power needs increase now to 4.0 W/c at 8 Ohms.

Looking forward to speak to Steve this morning.  Thanks again ski, take care ...

Ok, your location complicates matters.

Panama makes me think of exotic local hardwoods.  If I were you, I might consider getting one of the Pi kits on the cheap and contract a local artisan to have some beautiful, exotic wood cabs made locally.  It would probably end up being less expensive than shipping any pair of built cabs from here.  Think of the possibilites!

Well, there you go. You got the verdict from the big man's mouth. I'd follow it.

It's interesting to me as for some reason I've no curiosity or interest really in the Mini-Torii. Partly I think that's because I already had interest in the Torii, and because I had really grown a bit crazy from tube-rolling when it was introduced as a great platform. . . for tube-rolling. Also, in guitar amps, I had most problems both with maintenance and finding the sound I want with an amp I've had that used 6V6 tubes. None-the-less I'm sure it's a fantastic amp, seeing  the devotion that owners have for it, and the glowing reports from those who hear it.

Yeah, funny how things have developed in the last couple of weeks ... From the SE34i.2+ to the Zen Triode monos, to single SE84C+, to single Zen Triode and ZStage ...  and now the Mini-Torii.  Out went the speakers I considered elsewhere too (given the specs).

The point is, the Mini-Torii shares the best of a SET with lots of headroom, pace and flexibility, similar to the Torii (keeping scales out).  I'm not so much into rolling either (never done it), but the opportunity is there anyway, who knows.

I see you play the guitar ... Interesting, when I was a teenager I had a rock band, played the lead guitar (not too good). I then played only for myself and close friends off and on for another 20 years.  It's been over 15 years since I quit playing altogether.  

I'll go check 'What's spinning?' for fresh ideas ...

I play a bit of guitar, it's more that I love instruments and their construction and sounds, I'm not good at playing guitar, a bit better at bass, probably a bit better at piano and I'm best at drums, I played drums in a few bands ending 22 years ago. Just play for myself now, it serves as a sort of meditation for me.

I've collected a lot of instruments but I'm not doing them justice so I'll probably seel a number of them soon.

I'm glad you got an answer and the speaker situation was well thought out and prodded by openly-baffled and ski bum, man this place is just amazing. It's been interesting to see the progression of your inquiries and decisions. Hope it all comes together as you'd like!

I hear you opnly_bafld, and I'm not yet completely sold on the Mini, but it really tempts me. The thing is, playing loud enough is one thing, but having that power reserve is another. The Mini offers both greater power at 3.3 W/c but also the improved headroom due to the tube input stage power treatment.

Steve even mentioned that this is the only way to avoid having to use the PS Audio (something, I forgot), which conditions your main input before going to the amp.  Much of the grainy, edgy sounds at high frequencies stem from dirty mains supply.

The best way to actually get rid of this dirty element is through the power rectification and voltage regulation performed through tube amplification, which is one of the advantages of the Mini.

Economically, I'd rather spend less with a single Zen Triode and try cheaper (but capable) speakers.  I'll take a look at those speakers you mentioned. Thanks for your input.

"The thing is, playing loud enough* is one thing, but having that power reserve is another."

But doesn't a systems ability to play way louder than you listen translate into power reserve/headroom?
(Not saying the flea watter is the answer for you, I have the luxury of 2 VG systems so I can have my cake and eat it too. )

I won't tell you my 09' Decfest story (it ends with you spending more money).

*actually I said "very loud" which of course means different things to different people

So there you have it, Riv, a pioneer among us mortals, in the use and abuse of the now famous Mini-Torii. It should feel great to have had that opportunity. And, you're right, it is a Singe-Ended Pentode configuration.  

Steve mentioned that this is the only one (SEP) that sounds the way it does, as far as he can tell. I could feel he was very proud of this accomplishment. He said he had broken several 'rules' when designing it!

Just to muddy the waters a bit, please search for my postings within the past year.

I have a little personal recording studio in a 10x12 room, using an Eastern Electric MiniMax DAC pushing a single SE84C+ and dual HSU STF-1 Subs (via a separate preamp which then feeds dual Velodyne SMS-1 sub EQ's, and then to the HSU subs).  I get the best sound by not using any external crossover (just what's built into the subs), and sending two RCA cables out of each DAC output (to feed the corresponding speaker and sub).

I'm using PMC TB2S+ speakers (fabulous!) with just a 90dB rating, I'm listening near-field (30-36 inches away), and the sound is just amazing.  My normal listening volume at the central sweet spot is between 80-85dB.

Bottom line: anything more than 2 watts would go to waste in my setup, and a friend told me he can't believe that the sound in my little studio compares with multi-million dollar studios that he's been in.

Food for thought...

Lin -

Yes -- full bass is going to the PMCs and the subs (but the subs have their own built-in low-pass filter), so the subs provide bass augmentation.  I've done extensive testing of my room, and the PMCs by themselves have a big dropoff in bass response below 90Hz (caused more by the room than the speakers) -- but that contributes to the really nice "blend" that I get when adding the stereo STF-1 subs.  For such a small room, I've been really lucky with how things have worked out.

But, by themselves, the PMCs (in my room) just don't have enough bass for my taste, and to allow me to properly evaluate the bass on mixes that I work on.

P.S. -- I had the PMCs for several months before I fully realized that they were too bass shy.  It wasn't until I started doing some tests that I realized what was going on.

I was amazed that I couldn't sense any degradation splitting the output of my DAC to the SE84C+ and the subs -- but the degradation in my case was horrendous then I first tried to use an extra pair of speaker cables to push the subs' high-level inputs.  I could have sworn that I would have to use an active crossover to make this work, but luckily I didn't

Nearfield monitoring ihas been pretty typical in recording studios for the past 30 years or so, and I've never really liked it until I got this current setup.  I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but it's great for mixing songs.  And it 's also unbeatable (from my point of view) for a critical solo listening experience.  But it's critical to have a speaker with a killer crossover design (like the PMCs) when listening that close...

I'm using a pair of AudioQuest brand solid (all metal) splitters that I got from Amazon for about $12 each.  I've also tried some $6 similar generic ones from PartsExpress.com, and I can't tell the difference.  Again, I can't detect any degradation whatsoever.  And I can hear really low-level detail with this setup.

Bottom line: you have to try it to know for sure.  I would have bet that it wouldn't work -- but it did.  And it sounds absolutely amazing.  And you're right -- my setup is a cross between speakers and headphones, which is exactly what I've been looking for.  But, again, it requires a superb crossover (if your speakers have a crossover) to listen nearfield.  Otherwise, it'll probably sound unacceptable.

Excellent point!  My STF-1 subs only go down to about 30Hz, but that's not a problem for me because the lowest string on an electric bass guitar only goes down to about 41Hz, and I roll-off everything in my mixes below about 35Hz, anyway.  Yes -- I don't mix classical music.

However, the beauty of the setup I've stumbled into is that the speakers by themselves (in my particular room) have absolutely no significant output below about 40Hz -- so I can't even hear where the SE84C+ is likely to be "struggling" a bit.

So yes, the subs are absolutely taking up the slack (from 30Hz-90Hz).  But if/when I start listening to enough double bass (or other orchestral mixes), I'll probably have to consider upgrading my HSU STF-1 subs.  But the system sure sounds great (down to about 30Hz), which works very well for all my current mixing and listening needs.

But that's still a great point!