Lin -

So can I presume you use a sub to fill in the lower end of the spectrum?

But going back to your implied question, I guess at my nearfield 80-85dB standard listening level, I'm pulling well under one watt out of my SE84C+ -- so that may explain why I have no issues whatoever at this time from 30Hz on up.  And even though I'm not currently using low-bass orchestral samples in songs, I use some pretty low synth bass and electric guitar notes at times, and (luckily!) I've had no issues getting solid bass out of the system.  But below 90Hz, most of that is coming from the stereo HSU STF-1 subs.

I even tried playing some live low electric bass guitar notes through my system after my previous post, and they sound rich, deep, and totally solid to me at this time.  Not a hint of what I would expect to hear if the SE84C+ bass was breaking down.

Based on my original bass guitar distortion issue at max volume on the SE84C+ (before integrating the stereo subs into my system), I could have sworn that I'd need an external active crossover to filter out the low bass from going through the SE84C+ and getting to the PMC speakers.  But, luckily, I didn't.  So I'm glad I tried out this setup first before mentally dismissing it as unworkable.  Again, to my ears, it's now one of the best sounding systems I've ever heard.  But nearfield listening certainly isn't everyone's cup of tea...

Fair enough -- I'll see if I can track it down and give it a try...

It's been a bit of a pain integrating stereo subwoofers, but well worth the effort.  But to be honest, I don't think I'd be able to make subs work with speakers that start to roll off at 150Hz.

But -- out of curiosity -- with your response down about 12dB at 75Hz, have you noticed any bass performance anomalies?  And it sounds like you're using somethng other than a Decware low-wattage amp?

And don't forget the option of inserting an active crossover (like the Bryston 10B-Sub) after a DAC or preamp, and then in essence T'ing off to the power amp and the subwoofer.  That's what I thought I'd have to do to prevent what I thought would be occasional SE84C+ over-driven bass to my PMC speakers...

FB- there is some amount of pleasant harmonic texturization from the output trannys that would be passed on if you fed speaker level signal to the sub.  While not absolutely necessary, it's something to consider.

Most subs don't have any high pass filtering in either their line level pass through or the speaker level pass through, so you don't really need to waste extra cables routing things that way.  Keep it simple.

If you need to squeeze a little more out of your amp then an active crossover would come in handy, but my experience mirrors MarkBlair's.  I actually have one but don't presently use it.

Got it, ski. Thanks! I just feel wiring speakers OUT (high level) is cumbersome and prone (maybe) to more degradation?

Can we then narrow this to either the pre OUTs to low-level SUB IN (L+R) or the splitter for DAC OUT to AMP and SUB?  Which is more convenient you guys think?  

The former, when applied to the Mini Torii, incorporates some input stage tube effects and has volume in tandem with SUB (which can be adjusted further on its own, if desired).

The latter is independent of the amp (no input tube stage effects), and SUB controls volume for all low frequencies under the X-Over cutoff.

Thanks again ...

Got it, Mark, thanks. I was going to setup the SUB this way, before I learned about the other possibilities.  Now, learning from your experiences I will definitely go that way, initially.  

With respect to adjusting bass volume, I believe it must be much more difficult in a stereo bass setting. In my own mono SUB experience, the SUB's volume can be adjusted independently until you hear the level that best complements the rest of the system. That is how it works in my current setup.  My bookshelf speakers are so small I need to use the SUB's Direct X-Over at 200 Hz to get the best effect (in this setup, I'm using the SUB OUT from my SS amp).

Regarding the bass stereo effect, I was under the impression that bass is essentially mono. Presumably, it does not have to be stereo. At least that is the notion around. Evidently you seem to have experienced a different result by making the bass stereo, which is somewhat peculiar and new to me.  While surround sound applications may justify multiple SUBs, I thought two-chanel music stereo is normally complemented by a single SUB.  I'm learning every day.

BTW, in my curret SS setup (using the SUB OUT), every time I increase (or decrease) the amp's volume, the SUB's relative volume adjusts accordingly, automatically. I presume the same is true by connecting from the PRE OUTs. I would think not so when linking from the DAC.

In your case, the DAC has a volume setting and you can centralize all volume control there, but my DAC does not have that volume setting.  Mmmhhhh  ...  Should I then use the PRE OUTs instead ( to avoid having to re-adjust the SUB's volume every time I change the amp's volume?)  Is the PRE OUTs signal really volume setting dependent?

"While surround sound applications may justify multiple SUBs, I thought two-chanel music stereo is normally complemented by a single SUB.  I'm learning every day."

http://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/

Quote:


Agreed. I would love to have budget room for the Bryston, but no. And there are some well-made active crossovers that cost a bit less. Fireblade, depending on the aprpoach you take, you might want to consider one of the Paradigm X-10/20/30 units. Bob referred me to them, and so I picked up an X-30 off ebay. I am not sure if I will actually deploy it, because I am still wrestling with my own sub integration. I am getting two servo subs (Rhythmik guts) built in cabinets like my ERRs. Those won't be done for a little while. In the meantime, I am experimenting with my old Orb powered subwoofer just to see what seems to work with the system. Progress is slow, because I have very little free time this time of year, and I have some room placement challenges, and I am still figuring out the best way to take advantage of the Ultra's multiple outputs. Plus, I am tasking my subs to do double duty in both the HT aspect of my system, and the 2/5.1 audiophile side.

Anyway, there are a number of ways to go about integrating subs, as well-identified earlier in this thread. I highly recommend this series of articles on bass management and integration by the fellow from Red Spade Audio, because they will help reduce the trial & error work. I downloaded the software, procured the Behringer mike and mixer, and just started taking measurements. Having objective data to check against what your ears and brain are subjectively telling you is invaluable.

opnly_bafld, found the article, thanks.  Pale Rider, your link is broken. Could you check it out?

Anyway, the matter is much more complex than I thought. I think I'm going to experiment when the time comes.  In the mean time, I'll stick to a single SUB, linked through the DAC and will adjust the volume at both sides of the equation (amp and SUB) for volume adjustments.

If it sounds good enough, fine.  If not, I'll start researching the subject more thoroughly.  Thanks to all for your assistance.

For true venue recordings, as you call them, theoretically a stereo bass audio system (objective 2) should reflect a time delay from one side (channel) SUB to the other, unless the recording of the bass happened to be in the exact middle of the physical soundstage.

This, because lower frequencies travel much slower (relatively speaking) and true stereo should reflect the distance from the bass player to either channel.  Is this the bass stereo effect you're referring to?

When you refer to uniform bass response (objective 1), isn't it equivalent to having a single SUB that does not peak or dip relative to the rest of the frequencies (i.e., the proper relative volume setting on the SUB)?

Trying to understand this ... thanks for your patience!

Agreed, Mark and thanks!

Home brewing must be exciting ... Though I'm a wine guy myself. I wish good wine could be done at home too.

I also remember as a kid all the pocket, leather-bag small transistor radios we used to cherish.  

You know, that's absolutely right. I plan to give the basic system a chance, while trying to improve on speaker positioning, limited room conditioning and SUB placement.  After that, we'll see. I know once you get used to a sound quality level, you always want to improve on it.  As there are always opportunities (though at diminishing returns for the investment), the curiosity and  ever present aim at the wholy grail of sound is a perennial, addictive temptation.

In the end, what I enjoy most is the music, and this ought to be the objective that hopefully will help me control those urges.

Wine gives me a headache. I am a beer person. At DECFEST they serve beers that you have never heard of.

Really sorry to see this gone from the lineup.  I got one about a year ago and set it up on a finished piece of wood like in the documentation.  Great if you don't mind the "science fair" look and no one around to put fingers where they shouldn't. Sounds absolutely wonderful with a pair of Tekton 8" single driver speakers.

I have the CSP-2 or ZenHead for a pre-amp stage, but it sounds best without.

i was thinking getting another one for case mounting...oh, well  :(

Regards,
Hank

Expect the new replacement by the end of spring, according to Steve.

Hi All.  Can someone tell me how to wire two sets of speakers with 2 subs to my system?

Macbook Pro Source via Toslink > Havana DAC via RCA > CSP2+ Pre > SE84C+ > ERR's (8ohms).  Plus now have Tekton OB4.5's (4ohms) with 2 8" Tekton Subs.

Do I wire subs off the DAC RCA's with a splitter, wire the subs together from their speaker posts.  Then wire 4 speakers in Parallel from Amp, starting with 8ohm ERR's to 4ohm OB's?

Do I wire subs off Preamp Mono Sub with a splitter, then same as above?

Do I split the Stereo out of the Preamp to the subs, then same as above?

Obvious rookie here, who is easier with seeing than words...

Thank You!

Z