Welcome to this forum. I cannot imagine how disappointed you must be after scoping out this amp and learning that it is no longer available.

The SE34I.2 was inspired by the original ZEN design, single ended, dual mono, but with more power than the 2 watt SE84C.

If dual mono is most important to you then a TORII MK III, MINI TORII, or SE84ZTM monoblocks would fulfill this. Or you could have 2 SE84C or ZEN SELECT units wired for mono.

If SET is the most important to you, and you want the same power the SE34I.2 had, a pair of SE84C+ or ZEN SELECT units wired in mono would be as good.

On the other hand, if you are not set on SET, the TABOO with a CSP2+ unit would be a great system.

Fireblade, welcome!

It's news to me that the Integrated is being discontinued. . .that's too bad as I entertain sometimes the idea of having one again someday. There have been several offered here in the last few months and possibly elsewhere, they do come up used for sale as many move from the Integrated to a Torii, or to other amps.

Two other points: the push-pull Torii does NOT sound like a push-pull that you can imagine. It sounds very close to the single-ended Decware sound. There's an nearly model that every now and then shows up that had 12 watts per channel that may be perfect for you.

And there are the mono-d Zen amps to consider, and the excellent Zen Monoblocks. Also, with 95db speakers, you may be able to drive them very well with the Select or the other Zen amps, or the Taboo. I don't quite understand the "degradation due to too many interconnects." It would in fact be just the same amount of interconnects, one per channel, one left, one right. . . . The amps can be set side by side and you shouldn't need any extra length of interconnect.

Anyway, best of luck in your quest. There ARE Decware options, as I'm sure you'll discover when you talk to Steve.

Well, in my opinion, though there are differnces between the triode and pentode modes in Decware amps, and push pull and single ended, they are not as represented in other manufacturers, but in fact differing windows from the same room. I find Decware push pull amps to be quite similar in sound to the triode single ended ones, so I would say that being locked into the idea of the "EL34 SET Class A signature" is in fact limiting oneself considerably.

I also feel that with the efficiency of your speakers (and I know there are other factors such as crossover type) you may well be able to get by with the Zen amps. And I must say, as wonderful as I've found the EL34 amps, the low powered SV83/EL84 amps actually have the potential to be the very best sounding of the Decware amps. The speed of the smaller tube in this circuit makes for amazing detail and soundstage. The EL34 amps I moved to because they offered more power that I needed (at the time speakers with about 91 db  in a large room) and I listen to many different recordings, many of which don't sound that great, and in comparison to the SV83/EL84 amps the EL34 amps are a bit more forgiving and euphonic with lousy source recordings. In fact the SV83/EL84 amps may deliver what you're looking for in the EL34 amps. And when the SV83 tube is used, the Hazen Grid Mod is in effect. . . . These amps also have input gain adjustment and can be used without a preamp.

The "Select" is really an amp that no longer exists, which is now in improved form as the SE84ZS, which page is accessible via the catalog: https://www.decware.com/newsite/SELECT.htm
Why it is not on the tube amp page, I don't know, the SE84ZSM Monoblocks also are only accessible via the catalog page. These amps CAN be run without a preamp quite capably. Preamps do add to the sound, and I had to divest myself of the "adding a preamp and interconnects to the system means sonic degradation" thinking. That may well be true of many makes and models, but not when using the Decware preamps such as the CSP2+ or the ZSTAGE (a reportedly excellent line stage preamp that is more affordable). These preamps really do contribute far more than you imagine you might lose. They're a cut above anything else I've used. If you look in the "articles" Steve writes about the use of a preamp, and I think also in the owner's manual or product page for the preamps.

The real best advice I can give you is to talk to Steve about your system, your room, your musical tastes and equipment tastes and let him advise you. NO ONE knows more about the amps and their implementation than Steve and his advice is SOLID. He's also one of the easiest persons on the planet to talk to. I recommend getting him on the phone when you can!

Thank you Lon and Rivieraranch for your support.  Indeed, found the literature on those. These are essentially cosmetically upgraded versions on the SE84C+.  I think I could live with SE84C+ bridged monos, provided I would not need a preamp and I get around 6 W/c on 8 Ohm speakers.

Apparently, that's the deal with these, according to the Catalog script. Except, my source, a USB/DAC does not have any power (passive), it takes what it needs from the laptop. Therefore, I am not sure if the no-preamplifier advantage applies in this case.

I feel it's still a setback of $255.00 to get essentially the same thing as the ES34i.2+, isn't it?  

Regarding PP vs SETs, I just know it's a lot easier to build a good Class A Triode SET than a similarly successful PP Triode Class A . So, in general, the tradeoff is quality sound for power and bass control. I'm not implying Decware's PP have not been able to pull this through though, which may be the reason of Steve's success.  I just want to ensure the best sound quality I can afford.

Good to hear about the SV3 sonic attributes on the SE84C+.  I guess I will just need to speak to Steve about the options left.  Thanks again guys for your kind assistance.  BTW Lon, I read in one of the threads you are also a biker, good for you. I'm 61, practically retired, but still run a 2009 CBR1000RR (Fireblade) very fast, on weekends.  Good music sound and biking are my two passions.  Take care!

 

So that's where the handle "Fireblade" comes from. Yes, I'm a rider, don't have a car. Won't say I'm a "biker" though as I don't follow the "lifestyle" in any way.

Personally I don't think it's accurate to say those two Zen SE84 amps are "only cosmetic upgrades" to the Zen C+. Each of them use different parts and have improved sonics, that's the consensus among owners. And the Decware push pull sound IS different than any other I've heard. I've had four separate single ended Decware amps. . . but I would still choose my Torii for my use over any of those, that's in my opinion the best amp I've ever had, for many reasons, and I don't feel I lose anything significant over a single ended amp. . . with my speakers and sources.

Your instinct may be right about the need for a preamp. I don't use computer audio, but both Donnie here and I have found that from an iPod there is more gain needed to bring to amp up to volume. If you want to get everything right the first time you may want to consider a preamp, the ZSTAGE or CSP2+ (I don't feel the latter is "colored") and any of the amps. But again, Steve is the best source of compatibility information.

I'm a cruiser the last few decades. My need for speed has slowed down. I've got the perfect bike for my needs now and my knees never get close to the ground. What I like most is long trips, but I'm not a fairing or windshield user, I love the air and grit.

You know, I still think it's possible with 96db speakers one Zen amp would power your speakers, and maybe you could afford a C+ and a ZSTAGE. That would be a fine system! Steve would know.

I'm eager to hear what you decide, hopefully after talking to Steve. Hoping you join the Decware clan soon!

Taboo 2.3 volts for full output

SE34I.2+ 2.5 volts for full output

I personally won't call the latter an integrated because a lot of sources will not drive it to full power (if the specs are correct).

Also, I don't understand why you will not buy one just because it will be discontinued.

Lin

I see, I took it to mean that at some point in the (near?) future it would no longer be available.

I went the other way around, Lon. From a Cruiser (Moto Guzzi, BMW R1200C) to sportsbikes (Fireblade, Kawi, R1, Fireblade again).

I thought about the single SE84C+ with the assistance of a preamp to boost the input gain and overall output of the little guy, but I'm not sure if my 95 dBs will allow that (listening room is small though).

Ha Ha! ... Ride-On Donnie, good points (especially the Van stuff .. hehe!). Good point on the output voltage check on my USB/DAC: 2.25V full scale output.  Apparently barely enough by itself?

opnly_bafld, those specs contradict literature from Steve on this same site, as noted in my previous post.

Regarding your assumption of my resistance to buy the SE34i.2+, its not. I actually tried to buy through the site and the link was disabled. Sent an email and that was the answer I got from Sarah.  

I would love to be able to get my hands on one of those, as per my needs. Furthermore, I think it is such an important niche, I asume Steve will be replacing it with an upgraded version anytime now (maybe prices will go up with an "upgrade")

Again Lon, your suggestion of a single SE84C+ aided by a preamp (has to be the CSP2+, the ZStage is a Kit and I would not touch it!), makes sense. I read Steve mentioning the boosting properties of this preamp on all Decware amps. Is that right?  Take care now ...

A single Zen SE84C+ and a ZSTAGE would be right around $1200. From all I have read here I think that would do great for you.

I am running a ZEN SE84C+ from 94 db efficient speakers with a 2.5 volt source and I can't turn the volume all the way up without the sound level being uncomfortable.

When I run the ZEN with my 89 db efficient speakers and a 2.0 volt source I can turn it all the way up. It is loud enough and the sound has weight and body.

The MINI TORII would have no problem with a 2 volt signal either  

I ran a ZEN up at DECFEST with a ZSTAGE through 89db efficient speakers and it was incredible; the sound had a lot of weight, authority and control.    

Well, just be careful on that Fireblade. I backed off on speeding around because of the danger component. Exactly a year ago I could have been killed when struck from behind by a pickup truck while I was STOPPED waiting to make a left-hand turn.:)

The ZSTAGE is NOT a kit. I guess you were referring to the chassis/box. I agree that the CSP2+ may be a better choice (that huge transformer does something and so does the tube regulation, and you can individually adjust each channel, so you have a very good balance control, and it's BEAUTIFUL) but the ZSTAGE is a fully-assembled fully-realized preamp from the builder.

I really think if you have a small room and aren't partially deaf that with 96db speakers a C+ and a preamp will do you fine. The only real drawback would be if the speakers had a very complex crossover network.

It's time to call Steve!

Hi Lon, thanks for your continued support. I know there are risks involved, as everything in life. I've had my share of accidents (one in particular, out of which I was able to walk away, very fortunate indeed.) But you know, I do it with brains and technique, so I don't take stupid chances. Granted, you may not control the other variables, but that's part of the fun out of it. The adrenaline is such a high!

You are probably right about the CSP2+, it would be great, but I think redundant in my case, and too expensive.  The speakers I'm ordering are 95 dBs (not 96) but according to Steve's suggestions in the site, that puts them right in the middle of the ideal range (94-96).

Sarah indicated Steve would be back from holidays by Jan 3rd, so that's when I will be making my final decision.  Good riding ...

Well, ride carefully as well. I just don't get the high from the speed any longer. Happens. . . age makes changes. I may or may not be older than you.:) Happy trails!

Guys, I had forgotten this and I'm sure you will know the answer:  I usually complement my system with a SUB (Velodyne 60 Watts, decent performance) for the lowest frequencies.  

Now my question is how would I go about connecting it to the SE84C+, as I do not see any SUB OUT in back.  I do not see PRE OUTs either (it does not have a Pre anyway). These connections are RCA (mono or L+R, respectively). Those are about the only ways I have connected my SUB in the past

I know some people hook an extra pair of speaker wires from the power amp's speaker OUT (L+R) and connect them to the SUB's speaker input binders.  My SUB has an active XOver to pre-determine the cut-off frequecy to process only those low frequencies, but I have not used it via speaker terminals, so I'm not sure.

Have you guys done it this way with Decware gear? Could you explain?  Thanks again for your support.  Later ...

Fireblade,
I have my sub hooked up with speaker wire to the high level inputs. Seems to work pretty well plus you get a little "Tube lovin'" from your main amp. I'm thinking about getting real serious with the sub thing and having ZYGI build me a Imperial SO this coming year. That should put a little rumble in my neighborhood.

hi fireblade,  i often use my 84c+ to drive my 95 db efficient audio nirvana 12s. small very irregularly shaped room.  i do use a csp2.  also use a zbox i just got from lon (thank you, lon).  the zbox seems to eat up some output power so i do have to turn up the whole kit and caboodle to keep up loud sounds.  my experience is that the zen is reaching the limit of it's strength without the csp2.....my experience may be being influenced by my unwillingness to turn the zen all the way up.  just me?? so at that point i hook up my pre-owned se34.1 (highly modded by steve to be basically a power amp.  do not know the power output.  just forgot to ask steve.  mystery to me.  just know that decware has started to pull me out of my profound state of audio ignorance......possible suggestion: there is a feature on audiogon  that allows one to  list one's interest in a particular item.  go to the decware section, find the wanteds and proceed.  good luck, don

Fire:

Before buying my little ZEN SE84C+ in October I owned a TABOO and a MINI TORII. I must confess that the SET magic of the little ZEN amp took me by surprise. Not that it is "better" but different in a certain captivating, involving way. For example, I took two weeks off for the holidays and brought the ZEN home rather than leave it at the office.  

Now I am thinking of someday acquiring another ZEN to create monoblocks, or two ZEN SELECT SE84ZS to monoblock, or the ZEN SE84ZTM MONOBLOCKS with the tube regulation. I might just do it.  Therefore, I think you are on the right track to begin with an SET amp. I should have.      

Thank you, Don Pettit. Now this is not good news. My listening room is small also and somewhat irregular (opening on one side) 15' x 10', so I may need more power also (same 95dBs).  Unless the Nirvanas have a complex crossover and/or an odd impedance curve.

I don't understand the ZStage consuming output power? I thought the whole idea of that box was to increase gain and to boost the amp's output/dynamics/performance, with an added tube flair. How come it is doing the opposite?

I think that adding a 2nd ZEN in a 2-monos config should be even better than adding a preamp to a little guy like the Zen. I mean, it does not need really any further tube flavor, what it needs is a buddy to carry the load!  Although the gain stage of a CSP2+ helps (as should the ZStage), there's no substitute for power in this case.  And it's even cheaper ... Am I wrong here?

Thanks ang good listening!

Hi Jason, thanks for joining in!  You may be right on the first assumption, but it seems to me these are two distinct niches:

1. The Mini Torii is a technological show-case (the jewel of the house). Boasts all kinds of engineering tricks, including miniature dimensions. It's like two Zens sharing the same chassis, but with many non-standard features. Only 4 W/c (8 Ohms)

2. The Zen Triode is a classical SET amp, which when bridged provides 4 W mono (8 Ohms). With larger tubes this power goes to 6 W mono. Sharing the same chassis, these two monos act like an integrated amp.  More power and convenience, no extra features but without the need of a preamp.  Classic design integrated SET.

Regardless of pricing, these are distinct offerings to satisfy different needs.  I bet the new chassis is part of an upgrade, as you said, and maybe a price increase justification over the SE34i.2+.  I doubt and hope this model won't be discontinued indefinitely.

That's just my ill-informed guess, so take it with a grain of salt. I like the Mini-Torii but I can't jump on it before talking to Steve about my real options. He's coming back after the offer has expired, but cé la vie!

Take care now ...

Hi Lon, thanks for pointing that out. It seems I keep confusing all this weird names .. He He..! (maybe Alzheimer's is getting close?  HOPE NOT!!)

Indeed I meant the ZBox. Just replace that name where appropriate in my previous discussion, thats exactly what I was trying to say.  

BTW, my ex BMW R1200C will become a classic in due time, just because of the odd and unique style (and 1st and last Cruiser from BMW). I purchased the first one that came out in 1996/7.  The R90 was similar to one of my first bikes, a Moto Guzzi 850 T (1975 model). God I'm old!!  Cheers,

Hey Fire.  You are right in that the Torii platform is technologically different that any of the true SET's.
Quite honestly, if I was trying to choose M Torii vs Integrated, I'd like to have an integrated myself.  In fact, I would trade my first gen Torii for an integrated.
I started off in Decware land with a Torii because of the power but along the way I did have a Zen Select for a while to compare it to.  Had to have one just to make sure I wasn't missing something.
I owned another SET along the way too.
In the end the bigger Torii's won out as being best overall amp.

I hope if the integrated lives on it will be on the new platform with the OA3 regulation added.
I will be sorry to see it leave if it doesn't return.

Hey Jason, what exactly is the OA3 regulation? I'm glad you like your big Torii. Have you had the opportunity to compare the Zen Triode (SE84C+) with your Zen SELECT? Are there great differences? I think Lon mentioned that this was kind of an upgraded version of the Zen Triode?  I'm curious about these upgrades.

Regarding the integrated, I hope Steve offers some fast replacement at reasonable prices.  Also, could you tell me exactly why you think the big Torii is a better amp overall (other than power)?  

I hear you Lon, and agree with both statements. Later ...

Interesting ... I had heard of tube rectifiers (AC to DC), which are supposed to improve the amp's performance relative to SS rectifiers. Never heard of tube regulators. No susprise, I'm a neofyte in this field. Thanks ...

Got it! I'll check on that, thanks ...

Hi Jason. Got it! Thanks. Would that mean, then, that the Zen (relative to the Torii) is less involving?  How much less involving would you say?

I made some back-of-the-envelope calculations to check the effect of lower nominal impedance and higher sensitivity of my future speakers, relative to my current SS setup at 50 W/c.  Anyway, it's amazing, to say the least! I wanted to attach an image for you to check it out, but the system would not allow it.

The results show a single amp (SE84C+) putting up about 73 W/c equivalent to my current setup, and 128 W/c also equivalent to my current setup, when 2 monoblocks are used.  This is the best argument to release the doubt of a SET's real power.

For this reason, I'm changing my speakers' order from the M-Lore (8 Ohm, 95 dBs) to modelt81 (4 Ohm, 95 dBs). Decor wise (my wife is going to kill me!), the former were much better (narrow, tall, fitting), but the latter ones (bulgy, ordinary cubes) ROCK!

Jason, I'm sorry to squeeze the issue, but I think it is important. Let me know what you think about the less involving feeling you have experienced with the SET's, if you will. Thanks for the info.  Later ...