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Wait—Hold that Switch! (Read 6231 times)
Kamran
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Wait—Hold that Switch!
05/07/23 at 17:26:50
 
Too quiet in the Decware neighborhood so here’s something interesting to mull over….

One of my goals this year is to finally pay attention to cleaning the Ethernet signal.  The top 3 switches on my radar are:

1) LHY SW-8 [LPS built-in)
2) Uptone’s second generation EtherRegen (due in June but without a built-in LPS)
3) Go bonkers and get an Uber high end one like the highly reviewed and revered Innous Phoenix Net (LPS Built in). I actually listened to it my dealer 2 weeks ago, but couldn’t justify the $3700 price tag.  Maybe if the dealer had loaned me the unit and I had listened to it on my own rig, I might have made a case. Anyways, I got cold feet and walked out without it.

Anyways, what I ended up doing for now is not something I had anticipated I’d be doing and that is buying a non-audiophile switch to replace my current TP-Link Switch that provides wired connections to both my HT and 2-Channel setup.

There was a recent blind test of switches, in which the reviewer was surprised about the sound and measurement of the Netgear GS108E
Compared to some higher end models like the LHY SW-8 (which also sounded pretty good).  It’s a 4 hr video. I didn’t watch the whole thing, and to be honest, ignored it on my first pass.

https://www.youtube.com/live/8HNMMksiD_Q?feature=share

That lasted until an audiophile I know on FB tried it and was blown away.  I figured, what the heck—as I continue to stall to buy the Ethernet switch of my dreams, I could try this cheap one out. What’s the worst that could happen?  It’s’ $40 and could be picked up at your local Best Buy. Here’s a link:

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/netgear-8-port-10-100-1000-mbps-gigabit-plus-manage...

Well, I’ll be darned—The instant realization was that this switch is offering blacker backgrounds with bass sounding more visceral and textured, an increased sense of soundstage (especially height) and spaciousness, and even better reverb than I was previously getting.  I’m kinda dumbfounded at the results.  Note that Netgear’s SMSP is not connected to my dedicated lines and at some point, I might get a ifi PowerX that was also highly recommended and also not that expensive.

https://www.musicdirect.com/equipment/accessories/ifi-ipower-x-power-supply-with...

I’ve been listening off and on for the past 2 days and everything I’ve thrown at it is sounding better.  Figured I’d share this in case other members want to mess around with it.  It’s certainly cheap enough to easily scratch that tweakster itch.  

Also note that in my configuration, the Netgear is connected to an ethernet cable that goes halfway across the room feeding an on wall ethernet jack.  From that jack, I am currently using two Supra CAT8 cables. One to go to into my AQ PowerQuest Conditioner (which is solely being used to provide the series switching mechanism), and one coming out of it and connecting to my streamer.
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CAJames
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #1 - 05/07/23 at 17:53:21
 
Quote:
Posted by: Kamran      Posted on: Today at 09:26:50

...Note that Netgear’s SMSP is not connected to my dedicated lines and at some point, I might get a ifi PowerX that was also highly recommended and also not that expensive...


For me, I don't want a SMPS anywhere near my audio. I don't do networked music, but I bought a (relatively) cheap linear power supply on ebay for the laptop I use to play files. My suggestion would be to get one with similar specs to your wall wart, I think you'll notice an improvement for less than the ifi.
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will
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #2 - 05/07/23 at 17:55:49
 
Interesting Kamran and thanks for saving me from struggling through all of the video!
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Kamran
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #3 - 05/08/23 at 05:20:20
 
CAJames, I do intend to get a better power supply — was gravitating towards the ifi since it was decently priced but also just noticed some LPSU’s that are affordable.  I also wanted to set a baseline for how it sounded without help from an LPS.

In the meantime, by not having it directly connected it to my dedicated lines for 2-channel, I think I have mitigated any risks associated with SMPS (at least to some degree).  I do intend to buy an audiophile grade switch later (in addition and in series to the Netgear), which will definitely have linear power supply, either internally or externally.  This experiment was to gauge if switches made a difference and damn, this el cheapo Netgear is living proof that it does.

Will, the YouTube videos has time stamps, so you can easily navigate to any switch they tested and take a deeper dive.  They also liked the LHY SW-8 very much.

I will probably wait and see what Uptone has up their sleeve come June.
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will
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #4 - 05/08/23 at 16:15:26
 
Hey Kamran,

I did ramble around the sounds stamps some, and skipped a lot of areas, and a lot of each song play. Made it easier to get some sense of the sound while also seeing the noise tests and hearing opinions. A little tedious, but a lot of info and an interesting system of analysis I guess, especially when digging through so many switches.
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Ghostship
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #5 - 05/10/23 at 10:17:19
 
It's better to use unmanaged switches rather than managed, because they're plug-n-play.

I definitely recommend a clean power supply, at least the iFi type if not linear.

You can go with a wire-to-fiber conversion for a long run between your router to your streaming set-up.

After seeing the improvement from a basic switch then watching that video and doing more research, I went with the Paul Pang Quad Switch, and am extremely happy.
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Kamran
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #6 - 06/07/23 at 03:42:18
 
So I pulled the trigger on Uptone’s LPS 1.2 UltraCap LPS and connected it to my Netgear switch and have been evaluating the changes for the past 7 days.  Triode Wire Labs interconnects to the Had amp have been operational for over a month and the ZR2 remains in bypass mode (powered by TWL’s PC).

Soundstage - Scale - Holography: Noticeable increase in soundstage width and height, but what I was most excited about what was the increased depth perception.  I also can’t help but sense an increase in scale—like every recording seems grander (for lack of a better word).  The room seems bigger than it is.  Finally, a noticeable increase in holographicness (I know it’s not a word—but work with me here). Best way to explain this is that certain recordings where the projection of some instruments was already reaching my head, is reaching beyond or wrapping around and recordings that were 2D, seem to be near 3D. It’s addicting.

Imaging: Seems even more precise with instruments sounding more layered and finely etched in space. I keep trying to figure out how to describe this, but think of each instrument in a track in it’s own distinct air bubble.  In essence, it’s the slightly more blacker background that seems to be causing the better layer definition and the pop that instruments and vocals seems to carry.  I was going to throw in richer tonality as a separate bucket item, but I think it’s connected to the blacker background—I am just hearing more of it.  It’s funny, on certain tracks where there vocals are placed to the left or right of center, I continue to be startled as I typically listen in darkness with my eyes closed and it’s downright spooky how real it sounds as my brain screams that someone else is in the room.  Looking for a term to describe all this and the word “Visceral” comes to mind.

Bass: To say there is more meat on the bones will be a disservice.  It is a small, but noticeable increase in heft, impact, and articulation.  Not a night and day difference necessarily, but enough to bring a smile to the face.
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CAJames
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #7 - 06/07/23 at 04:19:27
 
Quote:
Posted by: Kamran      Posted on: Today at 19:42:18

...Soundstage - Scale - Holography...


Do you listen to mono recordings? It seems counter-intuitive but one of the biggest things I've noticed as I've improved my front end is how great a lot of mono recordings (typically jazz and classical from the 40's and 50's) sound now. The good ones really fill up the space between the speakers and there is tons of detail. It is certainly a different listening experience than stereo, but it has made a lot of music a lot more enjoyable.

Regardless, I'm glad the LPS is paying off for you. I'm a huge believer in replacing SMPS wherever and whenever possible.

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Lon
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #8 - 06/07/23 at 13:54:37
 
Like you James I listen to a lot of mono.

It's not easy for me to get a centered mono image in my room. . .for mostly room reasons but because I can adjust channel balance and channel tone I can. And when I do there's a room-filling full tapestry of sound. And also when I have the mono dialed in. . .the stereo is even more satisfying.

It amazes me at times how excellent mono can sound, especially amazing are ONE MICROPHONE recordings. Like a full-range single speaker output properly fed and placed, a one microphone input properly placed and recorded has a cohesive and realistic sound.

It's fascinating how making changes like this can lead to steps towards this more realistic and three-dimensional sound. Decware components are a great step forward in all these areas.
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Kamran
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #9 - 06/08/23 at 00:39:42
 
Thanks CAJames.  I am with you on SMPS — the only reason allowed it for as long as I did was because the cheaper Netgear switch was not connected directly to my dedicated circuits.  While I’m really bullish on the Uptone LPS, I do realize they have stopped making that model and if it goes bad I will have to look for another alternative.  The performance also makes me excited to wonder what they’ve got cooking for EtherRegen Gen2.

While I haven’t explored mono recordings, I am always open to trying new stuff.  Why don’t you recommend a few albums you really like in mono and I’lll look them up in Qobuz.
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CAJames
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #10 - 06/08/23 at 04:09:42
 
Here you go. Without really knowing your tastes IMO it is pretty hard not to like these. Lon may have some suggestions too.

https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/sonny-rollins-with-the-modern-jazz-quartet-son...

https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/sings-for-only-the-lonely-frank-sinatra/sy61os...
(esp. One For My Baby...)

I generally like The Beatles mono mixes better than stereo, but it doesn't look like much of that is available on Qobuz. You can compare mono and stereo here:

https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/revolver-the-beatles/h37m83cfcns7b

and this was an instant classic:

https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/moussorgsky-pictures-at-an-exhibition-bartok-m...

Happy listening!


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Kamran
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #11 - 06/09/23 at 01:30:10
 
Thanks, familiar with the first three and I like Jazz so enjoying the first one as I type. Not in to Classical so the last one wasn’t on my radar but will give it a go.  

It’s a different kind of experience listening to just the phantom center.
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Mannytheseacow
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #12 - 06/15/23 at 16:09:27
 
Hi, Kamran-
Can I ask why you chose the Supra cable and what (if any) changes you experienced from this cable vs. another?
Cheers!
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Kamran
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #13 - 06/16/23 at 05:47:57
 
Hi Mannytheseacow,

I chose Supra as my first and only Ethernet cable upgrade to date based on multiple good reviews I uncovered in multiple forums—needed something better than standard IT grade with a focus on Hifi and at a reasonable price point. This fit the bill nicely. In fact, I’ve been so happy with them that I haven’t splurged on an even higher grade such as a cable terminated with telegartner ends. I might eventually upgrade during the next 6-12 months if I end up getting an audiophile grade network switch.

Supra’s new USB cable (The Excalibur) also got very good reviews so I got that as well connecting my streamer to my DAC. I’ve been very happy with both cables to date.

It’s sold exclusively through Supra’s dealer on eBay.

Hope this helps.
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will
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #14 - 06/16/23 at 06:33:05
 
Not sure if useful, but another source for Supra https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/cables-and-interconnects/

I had heard their high end ICs are nice, but never heard them. The only experience I have was when I upgraded my HR-1s. I feel sure Bob was using the 15# Supra Classic Speaker wire for internals then, but I can't remember where I put it%^&*(. I liked it, finding it nicely colored. As I recall it had a somewhat "tubey" character, balancing some toward bass, but also with a tin on copper "glistening" detail effect that worked through the fullness enough to have a sort of classical "warmth." But for me it finally felt a little too dark, slow, and colored. I ended up with all Neotech UPOCC copper wire, but I was already partial to Neotech from making ICs, power cords, and for amp internals. It is just the most transparent and speedy wire I have found that I am willing to pay for. If anything, it is on the clear side but good at being "not there" to me. Changing the Supra Classic wire, which looks good on paper, to Neotech UPOCC, was like lifting a sheet off the speakers. Now this was only one stock low cost Supra wire, but my experience. I find it a challenge to get clear on anything without comparative analysis, especially when so much opinion is based on our always different systems and rooms....

A present example for me, I have never loved Sophia 274B rectifiers... I liked most everything about them, but never fell for them fully with my Torii MKIV or CSP3. They had a slightly intellectual feel for me. Lately I am playing with a used, nicely modified 300B amp that surprised me in how overall similar it felt to where I had gone with the Torii. It came with nice tubes, EML 300Bs, a Ken Rad 6SN7/VT-231 input and Sylvania 6BX7 drivers. 5U4Gs are the standard rectifier for the amp, he sent a nicely transparent pair of maybe 60s RCA 5U4G-STs. But for me, all else the same, the amp needed better speed balances, a little tighter bass, and less roll off/more fine detail.

I changed to very transparent and fast CSP3 tubes which might have been too clear with my MKIV, but this made most tubes work well in the 300B and the amp started showing its beauty. I still had to explore a little with different tube combinations for a relatively complete musical balances and the spacious and musical lucidity I need ...  where the amp disappears for me.

Then playing with the 300B amp rectifiers, I liked a lot of the 5U4Gs I tried pretty well, but the Sophias were sort of in another league. They just did it all right for me, great balances, adept, friendly and rich with just enough added touch of clarity and fine detail to open and let the amp sing. With it, quite a few input 6SN7s and both pairs of 6BX7 I have work pretty easily toward variations of complexity and balances I am after in the 300B. I have found beautiful combinations, and the Sophia 247B, which I did not love in the Torii, in this case had a lot to do with making that happen. In this amp, in my system/room, now I could say it is an excellent tube.

It is all so amazing, how so much of what we do depends on synergy. It also always amazes me how no matter how close to real the system and room make music, seems it can always gets better, seemingly without end.
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Bottlehead
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #15 - 06/16/23 at 07:35:39
 
I've been following this thread, and I'm wondering if any of you have checked out the videos on the subject on the Small Green Computer website. (My apologies if this has been mentioned already). It makes a lot of sense to me that they are using a fiber optic barrier to create a "noisy" leg upstream, and a "clean" leg downstream. Also, there are cheaper alternatives available (on Amazon, for instance) for media converters, SFP modules, etc. Anyway, it's a different approach that I find interesting. If anyone does check out the videos, let me know what you think.

Thanks, Randy
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CAJames
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #16 - 06/16/23 at 14:37:18
 
There is a really good discussion of fiber, and networking in general in these threads:

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1656968095/

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1633788897

It's over a year old, but it is still good stuff.
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Audeze LCD-XC
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Bottlehead
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #17 - 06/17/23 at 07:00:15
 
Thanks, CAJ.

I didn't go thru all of the threads (yet) - that's a lot - but it looks like good info. And what I did read seems to track with the Small Green Computer method of disposing of network noise before it gets to the streamer or dac.

I had loaned my Aurender to a friend earlier this year, and just got it back, so I'm up for some experimenting with improving the sound quality. I already have one of Uptone Audio's voltage-adjustable dual output LPS, so I can power the switch and media converter with no wall warts in my system.

Randy
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Tony
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #18 - 06/17/23 at 15:53:29
 

If you read through the posts referred to by CAJ:

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1656968095/

In one of his posts, he suggests the components needed to set up the fiber optic connection to dispose of network noise before it gets to the streamer or DAC.  I tried this a year ago and have been pleased with the results.
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #19 - 06/18/23 at 23:16:47
 
Hey Tony,

I ordered all my parts for an optical buffer last week. I opted for a TrendNet switch with SFP connection built in. The only thing that hasn't come in yet is the media converter, which was on back order. So I've still got a couple of weeks to go before I start my experiment.

Randy
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Kamran
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #20 - 06/19/23 at 02:21:58
 
Keep us posted Randy.  I’ve been thinking of introducing two media converters to isolate the noise further via a fibre optic cable, but the idea of getting another or (two ) LPSU’s wasn’t appealing and I wanted to put the money elsehwere.  For now, I am patiently waiting to see what Uptone is going to come up with for their next gen EtherRegen and I know I am going to need an LPS for it too.
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #21 - 06/19/23 at 17:41:32
 
FYI, I purchased a Denafrips IRIS DDC which connects to my Pontus DAC. It uses what they call a photocoupler, which converts the electrical signal to optical and then back to an electrical signal. This is from the IRIS user manual:

The IRIS Digital Signals are completely isolated by the 50-Mbps high speed photocouplers. The optical isolation yields even lowered noise-floor and achieved high signal to noise ratio.
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Tony
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #22 - 06/19/23 at 20:12:39
 

Artman,

When I set up the optical buffer last year, I did not have Denefrips Gaia DDC, which I do have now.  I looked in my Gaia manual, and it says the same as yours regarding photocouplers.

Does the signal isolation performed by the DDS make the use of last year's optical buffer referred to above redundant?

Thanks, Tony
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #23 - 06/20/23 at 17:41:46
 
Tony, that is a good question. It appears that you are in the better position to answer that question than I. If you remove the optical buffer from your setup and compare the sound with and without it, you might discover the sound implications of having one or two optical buffers in your signal path. Your ears are more sophisticated than any theorizing I can do to answer your question.

If you choose to test it, I hope you share your results with us.
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CAJames
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #24 - 06/20/23 at 22:59:00
 
Yes, it would be very interesting to do the experiment. But I will say this: the optical connection in the DDC maximizes the fidelity of the digital signal out of the DDC relative to the input. But it does nothing to reduce noise on the network connection for your streamer that generates the bitstream that is input to the DDC. So I will be surprised if the media converters are redundant.
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #25 - 06/21/23 at 08:02:58
 
Sorry for the absence, my remodel took over for a couple of days.

Kamran, will do. I plan to hook my Aurender up this weekend just the way it will be ultimately, but without the fiber optic barrier for now. I want to familiarize myself with the sound after not having it for six months or so. Then when the media converter comes in next month, I'll have a baseline of sound quality established to compare to.  

As a side note, I understand now what the fuss is about the Puritan Audio PSM156. Just brought everything into focus like my system has never had before. And I heard new things in familiar recordings. Pretty cool. I thought that my Furman was doing a good job, and it was. But this is better.  

Randy
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #26 - 04/28/24 at 16:49:49
 
If you had mentioned that it would take me over a year to execute my plans for an audiophile grade ethernet switch, I’d laughed at the thought.  Don’t see you see how invested I am—-I even wrote a whole post about it, with numbered options!

Yet, here we are…

I guess it’s not for lack of trying.

I came close to getting an EtherRegen last year but it didn’t work out.  Maybe my indecisiveness was a factor….should I wait for the next gen EtherRegen? It was supposed to come out last June and there’s still no confirmation it will make it this June either.  I gave up on waiting, deciding that I didn’t want to muck around with getting an additional LPSU for the existing or new EtherRegen and perhaps an aftermarket clock to make it shine.

The LHY switches were a good option, but for some reason, I just didn’t pull the trigger.

I did get a used Uptone LPS 1.2 for my upstream Netgear switch, and while it made a positive difference,  it malfunctioned barely two months in to the purchase, and there was sadly no recourse.

Then I got distracted with home renovations, Decfest, and soon after—-Sarah…and ya’ll know how that went.

Long story short, the stars finally aligned and I was able to go with all out bonkers option.

Yeah—the Innuos Phoenix Net (PNet hereafter), with a built-in world class linear power supply with Mundorf caps, and an oven controlled crystal oscillator clock (both items found in Innuos’ flagship Statement streamer, which retails for about $19K).  I was keeping an eye out on the used market and one popped up that met both my color (black), condition, and budget.

It’s built like a tank, yet gorgeously designed, matching the angled faceplate of my Innuos Pulse and has been increasingly widening the smile on my face over the past two weeks.

What I immediately noticed with the PNet is the massive decrease in the noise-floor.  That really messed with my brain for a day or two.  It’s as if the music had slowed down.  The blackness was eerie.  I’ve had noise-floor reductions in the rig before—but not on this scale.  Not even close.

The mid-range—especially the vocals, which were already stunning after the third SDFB went in to the Pulse streamer, are now so natural and organic sounding that I’m finding it increasingly difficult to differentiate the phantom center from an actual human being sitting in-between the speakers.  Not that the vocals sounded artificial before, it’s just that I didn’t know how much I’d appreciate the intimate pleasure of a locally hosted jam session.

Ok, let’s have a conversation about spatial cues.  

Sure, I’m getting better soundstage in all directions and it’s more holographic, and if that was it—I would count it as a win and move on but it still doesn’t capture what I’m attempting to explain.  I guess I’ll try use a couple of examples to get the point across:

There’s this real, dare I say tangible, sense of space vibe that I’m absolutely loving.  Similar to how a live venue feels like being in a live venue vs. watching one (or in our case, listening to one) or a better sense of the in-room (or lack thereof) acoustics where the track was recorded.  I just feel more there.  The clapping is so damn real that I kid you not, on one track, I could picture individual claps of two people sitting right next to each other, a couple of rows behind the speakers.

The magic is not necessarily how wide or how high or how deep notes are popping, but how they form within their respective spaces, that has me mesmerized.  This is also challenging to explain —- but think about the 3D TV fad where you’d put on those clunky glasses and could see the picture and artists coming out of the TV screen and you couldn’t help but raise your hand to touch them or flinch when something was thrown at you or a character (let’s say a shark) was trying to devour you.

Yeah…it’s that kind of feel.  I want to get up and touch the music.  I know this sounds stupid, but I don’t’ know how else to describe it. One thing is for sure— I’ll never use the term ‘three-dimensional’ lightly ever again.

It’s trippy and on some tracks, downright spine chilling.

One track that had me almost lose it (almost literally) was Billie Eilish’s ‘I Didn’t Change my Number’.  For this track, Billie added a special something—she recorded her dog Sharky’s growling and added it to the beginning of the track — it is placed at the far left of the left speaker.

Let me tell you something—-coming out of total blackness, that growl was so big, so loud, and so menacingly real that I felt like a deer facing headlights. Knowing the end was coming, terrified, but unable to move an inch.  You’ll see from the screenshot below, that I wasn’t listening too loud, the volume level was just in to my preferred zone of 75-85 db.



Hopefully, this conveys the spatial cues aspect. If it doesn’t, I’m sorry —- it’s one of those things that you have to hear it, to believe it (feel it?).

Prior to the PNet, I had made some changes to the rig that had made the bass a little leaner.  As the PNet was breaking in, the lower octaves got increasingly better, almost in front of my very eyes to a point where this is probably the best bass I have heard in the rig to date.  Deep and just ‘right’ sounding—aka articulate?

Lastly, I need to give a huge nod to Dynamic range. I recently mentioned to GS that prior to the PNet, I’ve experienced good dynamics but that was decidedly how loud it could get on a moments notice (as the track demanded), but now, I’m equally stunned with the range both ways.  The way the music just stops on a dime (as if the track just ended) in to complete darkness continues to mess and impress me at the same time.

The highs? The best sparkle in the rig without an iota of fatigue.  That pretty much sums it up.

I didn’t realize how long the PNet takes to break-in due to the oven controlled clock and the large Sean Jacob’s linear power supplies.  Today is day 13.  Research suggests a two week period of continuous power for the PNet to fully stabilize, so I think I’m there.

In the near future, I plan to get my fourth SDFB (Lon, please don’t hate me) for the PNet as well as a better PC (using stock for now) and I will do both at the same time to minimize the long settling in period.

Hope my observations are helpful to anyone who is exploring how switches impact the system.
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #27 - 04/28/24 at 16:58:09
 
I won't hate you Kam. I'm not going further with the SDFBs as I no longer have matching AC-12 cords to use, and I think I'm good with the three placed where they are. Very happy with the sound!

I've also spent all the money I can spend! And I have an Aqua II to buy!

As for ethernet switches. . . all coinic Greek to me. . . I'm an analog and digital disc person and will remain so. So glad I don't have that complication in the system.
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #28 - 04/29/24 at 03:54:11
 
Totally get it Lon.

So two updates since posting.

First, I think I did a huge disservice to the ‘decay of notes’ by not mentioning how utterly sexy the decay sounds with the PNet.  How did I miss that?

Secondly—here I thought the PNet had plateaued in terms of thermal stability and not expecting further improvements, but I think I was proven wrong.

The noise-floor dipped further.  I noticed it the second I started the listening session tonight.  It was noticeably quieter than the night before.  What the heck?

I listened to The Ray Brown Trio (Live at the LOA) for the 50th time and was just gobsmacked-it felt listening to it for the first time—a completely different experience.  Ray’s double-bass was deeper and tighter, whereas Gene Harris— don’t get me started on the piano notes on ‘Can’t Help Lovin Dat Man’.  My oh my.

Then I listened to some random instrumentals and another highlight was the rich tone and hypnotizing decay of the bamboo drum of TakéDaké‘s ‘Uduboo’.



I checked my decibel meter to make sure I wasn’t imagining it.  Nope.  The floor was a full 2db lower compared to the past week (with no music playing). Wild.
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #29 - 04/30/24 at 14:40:08
 
Kamran, wowza! It’s wild how different things can have such a profound change in different systems. Adding the Etheregen was a significant improvement. Sounds like the PNET is either a lot better, you had more to clean up or both.

These experiences push me to ask how good can it get? It's still surprising to me how it can get so. much better.

Reading this and contemplating my internet chain get's me curious. Maybe throw a few LPS in to start? Majority of my digital listening is files from the ZENith MK3. So don’t want to go too crazy. I'm also so happy with how my system sounds I don't have any motivation to explore it right now. Only thing tugging at my brain is getting the second custom Super Tube Rectifier.

What ethernet cables are you using?
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #30 - 04/30/24 at 15:35:05
 
Quote:
Posted by: GroovySauce      Posted on: Today at 06:40:08

...Reading this and contemplating my internet chain get's me curious. Maybe throw a few LPS in to start?


Yes!!! Switch mode power supplies are the devil itself. I think you will be very pleasantly surprised by the improvement. I kinda feel like we already had this discussion?
 
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #31 - 04/30/24 at 18:55:47
 
James, I'm guessing we have, I don't know if I specifically mentioned LPS on network side of things or not. Problem is I need two more LPSs for the network. I also want LPSs for my Schumann resonators.

If I had the funds for it I would replace all the SMPS with LPS in my home for everything.
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #32 - 04/30/24 at 19:23:12
 
Quote:
Posted by: GroovySauce      Posted on: Today at 10:55:47

...If I had the funds for it I would replace all the SMPS with LPS in my home for everything.


I would definitely start with the SMPS close to the system. LPS in different parts of the house don't buy you much in my experience.

I admit to not having read the entire thread, but what kind of LPS are you looking at? I've been very happy the ones I got from ebay, and they aren't a lot of money, esp. if you buy more than one and can consolidate shipping. E.g.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/353532995691
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Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Audeze LCD-XC
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #33 - 04/30/24 at 20:52:34
 
The Etheregen is on a TeddyPardo LPS. The switch and modem are on a different circuit and on SMPS. I'm looking at those two guys.

At $100 or less a pop that's workable to put on the modem and switch. Might pick one up for the Schumann resonator too.
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #34 - 04/30/24 at 22:54:21
 
Thanks for the suggestion CA James. Ordered one for my Netgear extender to see if it will help tame my noise issue. Greatly appreciated.

HK
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #35 - 05/01/24 at 00:07:13
 
Out of curiosity….my Ubiquiti 24 port POE switch in my basement feeds the signal to a 5 port POE extender switch by my audio rack.   Since there is no wall wort power supply so to speak, would this scenario be better than a traditional 110 powered switch?  All runs are using CAT6A cabling.  

Dom
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #36 - 05/01/24 at 00:30:13
 
Quote:
Posted by: HockessinKid      Posted on: Today at 14:54:21

...Ordered one for my Netgear extender to see if it will help tame my noise issue.


Happy to help...but do you mean a wireless extender? I feel like wireless itself is probably a big part of your noise issue. Certainly the LPS will only help and I'm interested in your experience. But, for another idea see below.

Quote:
Posted by: Dominick      Posted on: Today at 16:07:13

Out of curiosity….my Ubiquiti 24 port POE switch in my basement feeds the signal to a 5 port POE extender switch by my audio rack.   Since there is no wall wort power supply so to speak, would this scenario be better than a traditional 110 powered switch?


I would be suspicious of PoE powering my music, so if I had to make a choice I would go with a switch+LPS. Perhaps you have more going on that I don't know about. But see below.

Have either of you guys considered fiber? I feel like (and the experience of other posters seems to prove out) that fiber is best way to get your music from your home router to your stereo for the least amount of money. I think this is a really good discussion from a couple years ago:

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1633788897

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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #37 - 05/01/24 at 03:22:34
 
I think the PNet has finally stabilized—-it took two weeks.

GS: Yes, I was surprised too.  I think it all boils down to the power supply, which we know has a profound impact on the sound.  I know some folks also swear by using the Network Acoustics Muon Pro Ethernet filter in conjunction with the PNet (or other switches) and swear by the results.  It’s a passive device and supposed to complement a switch.  Considering I stream 99% of the time, going down this path was always high on the list of priorities.  I’m glad I finally did it.  In the grand scheme of things, the results are not in the league of say a SDFB, but there were still very meaningful.  I currently use two runs of Supra Cat 8 in and out of the streamer. I intend to upgrade the cable going in to the Pulse streamer at some point in the near future.

Opinions on fiber are mixed.  Some say it makes a difference while many others say, it makes things worse.  Not sure who to believe.  If I do end up experimenting, I know how I’m going to go about it.  I will replace my upstream Netgear switch with an LHY switch (with built-in LPSU) that supports fiber. Then I will get another LHY Switch and run the fiber between them and then ethernet out to the PNet.
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #38 - 05/01/24 at 04:06:38
 
Quote:
Posted by: Kamran      Posted on: Today at 19:22:34

...Opinions on fiber are mixed.  Some say it makes a difference while many others say, it makes things worse...


I don't stream (exactly because I don't want to depend on the network for my music) so I don't follow all these discussions. But I am curious about fiber making things worse, worse than what? Worse than wifi? Worse than a switch? I'm not saying anyone is wrong, but networking was my day job for many years so I'm simi-professionally interested.
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #39 - 05/01/24 at 18:29:00
 
James Smiley   We have always had to rely on physical media and radio. And, believe it or not, many areas of the country do not have access to usable internet, even today. It is usable here/somewhat..IF you can afford it. Ours mostly works for what we use it for, but most would laugh at it's speeds/usability etc. All good anyway. We will continue to use the physical discs, cd's, DVD/Blu-ray concerts and flack files we have collected/purchased over, so many years.. We refuse to rent music. Wouldn't work well here anyway. And lose a title due to rotations etc. NOPE. That would piss me right off. Pay for that? I need to go fishing. later~
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #40 - 05/01/24 at 18:49:19
 
James, I hear you. I also don’t have a dog in this fight whether or not fiber sounds better or worse.  Just relaying observations that it appears to be a polarizing subject w.r.t. effectiveness (I guess what isn’t in Hifi?).

If anything, I intend to find out for myself.  I’ve heard good things about daisy chaining switches especially two LHY SW-6’s or a combination of that and LHY SW-10 (both options will allow running fiber between them).  Right now I have a daisy chain between the Netgear and the PNet.  I intend to target the Netgear in the future with an LHY SW-6.

My network is extremely reliable and isolated (at least coming in to the house)— 1 Gbps Verizon Fios Fiber, prior to the Ethernet/router/switch connections.

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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #41 - 05/01/24 at 19:49:31
 
Quote:
Posted by: Kamran      Posted on: Today at 10:49:19

...I’ve heard good things about daisy chaining switches especially two LHY SW-6’s or a combination of that and LHY SW-10...


I'm confident "audiophile" switches are a sweet, if somewhat capital intensive, solution. But, to be clear, what I'm talking about is a pair of media converters from Amazon and a LPS from ebay as a 100something dollar alternative to wifi or PoE powered ethernet extenders.
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Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Audeze LCD-XC
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #42 - 05/01/24 at 19:55:16
 
Quote:
Posted by: MikeinMontana      Posted on: Today at 10:29:00

...We refuse to rent music...


That's really the bottom line for me too. Even if I were interested in putting in the effort and expense of an audiophile grade network connection I object to the idea on principle, but JMO and all that. In addition to physical media I buy files for download and play them on a (heavily tweaked) laptop via USB, and that is a great solution for me.
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Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Audeze LCD-XC
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #43 - 05/01/24 at 20:32:56
 
Ditto.  I came close a few times, to trying a streaming service, but could not bring myself to pay a monthly fee for that. As James said, on principle.

Besides that, I'm a music pirate from way back. For someone that is not very computer savvy, I have figured out ways, over the last 10 years, to accumulate LOTS of free music.
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #44 - 05/01/24 at 21:42:02
 
Sorry, not trying to derail this thread further, but I scoffed at streaming for years until recently deciding it was the right fit for me.
I relish sitting down on Friday evening and rolling through all the new releases of the week. The $15 a month that it costs me pales in comparison to the money I spent buying albums.  Then there’s the risk of buying an album that may or may not be good. I don’t have the clutter of albums piling up that I listen to once or twice, or maybe years without listening to again.
And the best part for me is I will never clean another LP again.
For my interests, hi-res streaming’s sound quality is as good as anything I’ve ever heard. Granted my hearing isn’t what it used to be.
Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I love my system and hope everyone finds the same happiness, however they get there.  [smiley=peanuts21.gif]
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #45 - 05/01/24 at 22:07:46
 
Yes, I think if I didn't already have tens of thousands of discs when streaming became the thing I would have gone in that direction. But having a huge collection is a great thing for my retired living and though I now have to start downsizing I've had wonderful years (I've been retired for 16 years) going through my collection and selecting discs to listen to. It appeals to me very strongly--I know that others feel very differently.

One of my friends who shares a similar broad and hungry appetite for music complains that he can't stream all he wants to listen to. (I don't think he looks as hard as I would, but I suspect I would still find many discs I own and want to listen to unavailable to stream). Having them on hand is a great feeling. Part of why for me "life is good."
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #46 - 05/01/24 at 22:39:13
 
Quote:
Posted by: Lon      Posted on: Today at 14:07:46

...One of my friends who shares a similar broad and hungry appetite for music complains that he can't stream all he wants to listen to... Having them on hand is a great feeling.


That cuts both ways. My interest is mainly classical, and that is a different market, but there is a lot of stuff, esp. collections that is available for download (or streaming) that is either prohibitively expense or not available at all on physical media. That was one of the main drivers for me to pursue downloads. I routinely buy 10 or 20 or even 30 disc sets for around 10 bucks, and they don't take up shelf space .

But I completely agree that having them on hand is a great feeling.
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #47 - 05/02/24 at 00:00:11
 
Can't say that is the same way for me and my pal who predominantly listen to jazz.
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #48 - 05/02/24 at 00:07:30
 
Yup, I get what you’re suggesting James — that remains a very tempting path short of the big investment.

As far as streaming vs. physical media— different strokes for different blokes.  There is no right or wrong choice.  Both are compelling for different reasons.
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