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Wait—Hold that Switch! (Read 4937 times)
Kamran
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Wait—Hold that Switch!
05/07/23 at 17:26:50
 
Too quiet in the Decware neighborhood so here’s something interesting to mull over….

One of my goals this year is to finally pay attention to cleaning the Ethernet signal.  The top 3 switches on my radar are:

1) LHY SW-8 [LPS built-in)
2) Uptone’s second generation EtherRegen (due in June but without a built-in LPS)
3) Go bonkers and get an Uber high end one like the highly reviewed and revered Innous Phoenix Net (LPS Built in). I actually listened to it my dealer 2 weeks ago, but couldn’t justify the $3700 price tag.  Maybe if the dealer had loaned me the unit and I had listened to it on my own rig, I might have made a case. Anyways, I got cold feet and walked out without it.

Anyways, what I ended up doing for now is not something I had anticipated I’d be doing and that is buying a non-audiophile switch to replace my current TP-Link Switch that provides wired connections to both my HT and 2-Channel setup.

There was a recent blind test of switches, in which the reviewer was surprised about the sound and measurement of the Netgear GS108E
Compared to some higher end models like the LHY SW-8 (which also sounded pretty good).  It’s a 4 hr video. I didn’t watch the whole thing, and to be honest, ignored it on my first pass.

https://www.youtube.com/live/8HNMMksiD_Q?feature=share

That lasted until an audiophile I know on FB tried it and was blown away.  I figured, what the heck—as I continue to stall to buy the Ethernet switch of my dreams, I could try this cheap one out. What’s the worst that could happen?  It’s’ $40 and could be picked up at your local Best Buy. Here’s a link:

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/netgear-8-port-10-100-1000-mbps-gigabit-plus-manage...

Well, I’ll be darned—The instant realization was that this switch is offering blacker backgrounds with bass sounding more visceral and textured, an increased sense of soundstage (especially height) and spaciousness, and even better reverb than I was previously getting.  I’m kinda dumbfounded at the results.  Note that Netgear’s SMSP is not connected to my dedicated lines and at some point, I might get a ifi PowerX that was also highly recommended and also not that expensive.

https://www.musicdirect.com/equipment/accessories/ifi-ipower-x-power-supply-with...

I’ve been listening off and on for the past 2 days and everything I’ve thrown at it is sounding better.  Figured I’d share this in case other members want to mess around with it.  It’s certainly cheap enough to easily scratch that tweakster itch.  

Also note that in my configuration, the Netgear is connected to an ethernet cable that goes halfway across the room feeding an on wall ethernet jack.  From that jack, I am currently using two Supra CAT8 cables. One to go to into my AQ PowerQuest Conditioner (which is solely being used to provide the series switching mechanism), and one coming out of it and connecting to my streamer.
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CAJames
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #1 - 05/07/23 at 17:53:21
 
Quote:
Posted by: Kamran      Posted on: Today at 09:26:50

...Note that Netgear’s SMSP is not connected to my dedicated lines and at some point, I might get a ifi PowerX that was also highly recommended and also not that expensive...


For me, I don't want a SMPS anywhere near my audio. I don't do networked music, but I bought a (relatively) cheap linear power supply on ebay for the laptop I use to play files. My suggestion would be to get one with similar specs to your wall wart, I think you'll notice an improvement for less than the ifi.
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will
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #2 - 05/07/23 at 17:55:49
 
Interesting Kamran and thanks for saving me from struggling through all of the video!
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Kamran
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #3 - 05/08/23 at 05:20:20
 
CAJames, I do intend to get a better power supply — was gravitating towards the ifi since it was decently priced but also just noticed some LPSU’s that are affordable.  I also wanted to set a baseline for how it sounded without help from an LPS.

In the meantime, by not having it directly connected it to my dedicated lines for 2-channel, I think I have mitigated any risks associated with SMPS (at least to some degree).  I do intend to buy an audiophile grade switch later (in addition and in series to the Netgear), which will definitely have linear power supply, either internally or externally.  This experiment was to gauge if switches made a difference and damn, this el cheapo Netgear is living proof that it does.

Will, the YouTube videos has time stamps, so you can easily navigate to any switch they tested and take a deeper dive.  They also liked the LHY SW-8 very much.

I will probably wait and see what Uptone has up their sleeve come June.
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will
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #4 - 05/08/23 at 16:15:26
 
Hey Kamran,

I did ramble around the sounds stamps some, and skipped a lot of areas, and a lot of each song play. Made it easier to get some sense of the sound while also seeing the noise tests and hearing opinions. A little tedious, but a lot of info and an interesting system of analysis I guess, especially when digging through so many switches.
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Ghostship
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #5 - 05/10/23 at 10:17:19
 
It's better to use unmanaged switches rather than managed, because they're plug-n-play.

I definitely recommend a clean power supply, at least the iFi type if not linear.

You can go with a wire-to-fiber conversion for a long run between your router to your streaming set-up.

After seeing the improvement from a basic switch then watching that video and doing more research, I went with the Paul Pang Quad Switch, and am extremely happy.
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Kamran
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #6 - 06/07/23 at 03:42:18
 
So I pulled the trigger on Uptone’s LPS 1.2 UltraCap LPS and connected it to my Netgear switch and have been evaluating the changes for the past 7 days.  Triode Wire Labs interconnects to the Had amp have been operational for over a month and the ZR2 remains in bypass mode (powered by TWL’s PC).

Soundstage - Scale - Holography: Noticeable increase in soundstage width and height, but what I was most excited about what was the increased depth perception.  I also can’t help but sense an increase in scale—like every recording seems grander (for lack of a better word).  The room seems bigger than it is.  Finally, a noticeable increase in holographicness (I know it’s not a word—but work with me here). Best way to explain this is that certain recordings where the projection of some instruments was already reaching my head, is reaching beyond or wrapping around and recordings that were 2D, seem to be near 3D. It’s addicting.

Imaging: Seems even more precise with instruments sounding more layered and finely etched in space. I keep trying to figure out how to describe this, but think of each instrument in a track in it’s own distinct air bubble.  In essence, it’s the slightly more blacker background that seems to be causing the better layer definition and the pop that instruments and vocals seems to carry.  I was going to throw in richer tonality as a separate bucket item, but I think it’s connected to the blacker background—I am just hearing more of it.  It’s funny, on certain tracks where there vocals are placed to the left or right of center, I continue to be startled as I typically listen in darkness with my eyes closed and it’s downright spooky how real it sounds as my brain screams that someone else is in the room.  Looking for a term to describe all this and the word “Visceral” comes to mind.

Bass: To say there is more meat on the bones will be a disservice.  It is a small, but noticeable increase in heft, impact, and articulation.  Not a night and day difference necessarily, but enough to bring a smile to the face.
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CAJames
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #7 - 06/07/23 at 04:19:27
 
Quote:
Posted by: Kamran      Posted on: Today at 19:42:18

...Soundstage - Scale - Holography...


Do you listen to mono recordings? It seems counter-intuitive but one of the biggest things I've noticed as I've improved my front end is how great a lot of mono recordings (typically jazz and classical from the 40's and 50's) sound now. The good ones really fill up the space between the speakers and there is tons of detail. It is certainly a different listening experience than stereo, but it has made a lot of music a lot more enjoyable.

Regardless, I'm glad the LPS is paying off for you. I'm a huge believer in replacing SMPS wherever and whenever possible.

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Lon
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #8 - 06/07/23 at 13:54:37
 
Like you James I listen to a lot of mono.

It's not easy for me to get a centered mono image in my room. . .for mostly room reasons but because I can adjust channel balance and channel tone I can. And when I do there's a room-filling full tapestry of sound. And also when I have the mono dialed in. . .the stereo is even more satisfying.

It amazes me at times how excellent mono can sound, especially amazing are ONE MICROPHONE recordings. Like a full-range single speaker output properly fed and placed, a one microphone input properly placed and recorded has a cohesive and realistic sound.

It's fascinating how making changes like this can lead to steps towards this more realistic and three-dimensional sound. Decware components are a great step forward in all these areas.
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Kamran
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #9 - 06/08/23 at 00:39:42
 
Thanks CAJames.  I am with you on SMPS — the only reason allowed it for as long as I did was because the cheaper Netgear switch was not connected directly to my dedicated circuits.  While I’m really bullish on the Uptone LPS, I do realize they have stopped making that model and if it goes bad I will have to look for another alternative.  The performance also makes me excited to wonder what they’ve got cooking for EtherRegen Gen2.

While I haven’t explored mono recordings, I am always open to trying new stuff.  Why don’t you recommend a few albums you really like in mono and I’lll look them up in Qobuz.
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CAJames
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #10 - 06/08/23 at 04:09:42
 
Here you go. Without really knowing your tastes IMO it is pretty hard not to like these. Lon may have some suggestions too.

https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/sonny-rollins-with-the-modern-jazz-quartet-son...

https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/sings-for-only-the-lonely-frank-sinatra/sy61os...
(esp. One For My Baby...)

I generally like The Beatles mono mixes better than stereo, but it doesn't look like much of that is available on Qobuz. You can compare mono and stereo here:

https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/revolver-the-beatles/h37m83cfcns7b

and this was an instant classic:

https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/moussorgsky-pictures-at-an-exhibition-bartok-m...

Happy listening!


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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
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Kamran
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #11 - 06/09/23 at 01:30:10
 
Thanks, familiar with the first three and I like Jazz so enjoying the first one as I type. Not in to Classical so the last one wasn’t on my radar but will give it a go.  

It’s a different kind of experience listening to just the phantom center.
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Mannytheseacow
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #12 - 06/15/23 at 16:09:27
 
Hi, Kamran-
Can I ask why you chose the Supra cable and what (if any) changes you experienced from this cable vs. another?
Cheers!
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Kamran
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #13 - 06/16/23 at 05:47:57
 
Hi Mannytheseacow,

I chose Supra as my first and only Ethernet cable upgrade to date based on multiple good reviews I uncovered in multiple forums—needed something better than standard IT grade with a focus on Hifi and at a reasonable price point. This fit the bill nicely. In fact, I’ve been so happy with them that I haven’t splurged on an even higher grade such as a cable terminated with telegartner ends. I might eventually upgrade during the next 6-12 months if I end up getting an audiophile grade network switch.

Supra’s new USB cable (The Excalibur) also got very good reviews so I got that as well connecting my streamer to my DAC. I’ve been very happy with both cables to date.

It’s sold exclusively through Supra’s dealer on eBay.

Hope this helps.
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will
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #14 - 06/16/23 at 06:33:05
 
Not sure if useful, but another source for Supra https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/cables-and-interconnects/

I had heard their high end ICs are nice, but never heard them. The only experience I have was when I upgraded my HR-1s. I feel sure Bob was using the 15# Supra Classic Speaker wire for internals then, but I can't remember where I put it%^&*(. I liked it, finding it nicely colored. As I recall it had a somewhat "tubey" character, balancing some toward bass, but also with a tin on copper "glistening" detail effect that worked through the fullness enough to have a sort of classical "warmth." But for me it finally felt a little too dark, slow, and colored. I ended up with all Neotech UPOCC copper wire, but I was already partial to Neotech from making ICs, power cords, and for amp internals. It is just the most transparent and speedy wire I have found that I am willing to pay for. If anything, it is on the clear side but good at being "not there" to me. Changing the Supra Classic wire, which looks good on paper, to Neotech UPOCC, was like lifting a sheet off the speakers. Now this was only one stock low cost Supra wire, but my experience. I find it a challenge to get clear on anything without comparative analysis, especially when so much opinion is based on our always different systems and rooms....

A present example for me, I have never loved Sophia 274B rectifiers... I liked most everything about them, but never fell for them fully with my Torii MKIV or CSP3. They had a slightly intellectual feel for me. Lately I am playing with a used, nicely modified 300B amp that surprised me in how overall similar it felt to where I had gone with the Torii. It came with nice tubes, EML 300Bs, a Ken Rad 6SN7/VT-231 input and Sylvania 6BX7 drivers. 5U4Gs are the standard rectifier for the amp, he sent a nicely transparent pair of maybe 60s RCA 5U4G-STs. But for me, all else the same, the amp needed better speed balances, a little tighter bass, and less roll off/more fine detail.

I changed to very transparent and fast CSP3 tubes which might have been too clear with my MKIV, but this made most tubes work well in the 300B and the amp started showing its beauty. I still had to explore a little with different tube combinations for a relatively complete musical balances and the spacious and musical lucidity I need ...  where the amp disappears for me.

Then playing with the 300B amp rectifiers, I liked a lot of the 5U4Gs I tried pretty well, but the Sophias were sort of in another league. They just did it all right for me, great balances, adept, friendly and rich with just enough added touch of clarity and fine detail to open and let the amp sing. With it, quite a few input 6SN7s and both pairs of 6BX7 I have work pretty easily toward variations of complexity and balances I am after in the 300B. I have found beautiful combinations, and the Sophia 247B, which I did not love in the Torii, in this case had a lot to do with making that happen. In this amp, in my system/room, now I could say it is an excellent tube.

It is all so amazing, how so much of what we do depends on synergy. It also always amazes me how no matter how close to real the system and room make music, seems it can always gets better, seemingly without end.
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Bottlehead
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #15 - 06/16/23 at 07:35:39
 
I've been following this thread, and I'm wondering if any of you have checked out the videos on the subject on the Small Green Computer website. (My apologies if this has been mentioned already). It makes a lot of sense to me that they are using a fiber optic barrier to create a "noisy" leg upstream, and a "clean" leg downstream. Also, there are cheaper alternatives available (on Amazon, for instance) for media converters, SFP modules, etc. Anyway, it's a different approach that I find interesting. If anyone does check out the videos, let me know what you think.

Thanks, Randy
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CAJames
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #16 - 06/16/23 at 14:37:18
 
There is a really good discussion of fiber, and networking in general in these threads:

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1656968095/

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1633788897

It's over a year old, but it is still good stuff.
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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Bottlehead
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #17 - 06/17/23 at 07:00:15
 
Thanks, CAJ.

I didn't go thru all of the threads (yet) - that's a lot - but it looks like good info. And what I did read seems to track with the Small Green Computer method of disposing of network noise before it gets to the streamer or dac.

I had loaned my Aurender to a friend earlier this year, and just got it back, so I'm up for some experimenting with improving the sound quality. I already have one of Uptone Audio's voltage-adjustable dual output LPS, so I can power the switch and media converter with no wall warts in my system.

Randy
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #18 - 06/17/23 at 15:53:29
 

If you read through the posts referred to by CAJ:

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1656968095/

In one of his posts, he suggests the components needed to set up the fiber optic connection to dispose of network noise before it gets to the streamer or DAC.  I tried this a year ago and have been pleased with the results.
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #19 - 06/18/23 at 23:16:47
 
Hey Tony,

I ordered all my parts for an optical buffer last week. I opted for a TrendNet switch with SFP connection built in. The only thing that hasn't come in yet is the media converter, which was on back order. So I've still got a couple of weeks to go before I start my experiment.

Randy
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Kamran
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #20 - 06/19/23 at 02:21:58
 
Keep us posted Randy.  I’ve been thinking of introducing two media converters to isolate the noise further via a fibre optic cable, but the idea of getting another or (two ) LPSU’s wasn’t appealing and I wanted to put the money elsehwere.  For now, I am patiently waiting to see what Uptone is going to come up with for their next gen EtherRegen and I know I am going to need an LPS for it too.
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #21 - 06/19/23 at 17:41:32
 
FYI, I purchased a Denafrips IRIS DDC which connects to my Pontus DAC. It uses what they call a photocoupler, which converts the electrical signal to optical and then back to an electrical signal. This is from the IRIS user manual:

The IRIS Digital Signals are completely isolated by the 50-Mbps high speed photocouplers. The optical isolation yields even lowered noise-floor and achieved high signal to noise ratio.
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Tony
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #22 - 06/19/23 at 20:12:39
 

Artman,

When I set up the optical buffer last year, I did not have Denefrips Gaia DDC, which I do have now.  I looked in my Gaia manual, and it says the same as yours regarding photocouplers.

Does the signal isolation performed by the DDS make the use of last year's optical buffer referred to above redundant?

Thanks, Tony
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ArtMan
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #23 - 06/20/23 at 17:41:46
 
Tony, that is a good question. It appears that you are in the better position to answer that question than I. If you remove the optical buffer from your setup and compare the sound with and without it, you might discover the sound implications of having one or two optical buffers in your signal path. Your ears are more sophisticated than any theorizing I can do to answer your question.

If you choose to test it, I hope you share your results with us.
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CAJames
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #24 - 06/20/23 at 22:59:00
 
Yes, it would be very interesting to do the experiment. But I will say this: the optical connection in the DDC maximizes the fidelity of the digital signal out of the DDC relative to the input. But it does nothing to reduce noise on the network connection for your streamer that generates the bitstream that is input to the DDC. So I will be surprised if the media converters are redundant.
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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Bottlehead
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Re: Wait—Hold that Switch!
Reply #25 - 06/21/23 at 08:02:58
 
Sorry for the absence, my remodel took over for a couple of days.

Kamran, will do. I plan to hook my Aurender up this weekend just the way it will be ultimately, but without the fiber optic barrier for now. I want to familiarize myself with the sound after not having it for six months or so. Then when the media converter comes in next month, I'll have a baseline of sound quality established to compare to.  

As a side note, I understand now what the fuss is about the Puritan Audio PSM156. Just brought everything into focus like my system has never had before. And I heard new things in familiar recordings. Pretty cool. I thought that my Furman was doing a good job, and it was. But this is better.  

Randy
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