Ok Fellow members, I need you to help me think through this.

I currently have my gear on a 15 amp outlet (both source and amp). Amp is connected directly to wall and the other receptacle is tied to an entry level AQ power conditioner.  This circuit is daisy chained to at least 3 other outlets, one of which is my TV and another one to my AVR and networking gear.  In two years, I’ve never tripped a circuit.  So there isn’t necessarily a a pain point.  Typically, when I am running two channel, both my TV and AVR are on standby.

I am investigating the dedicated 20 amp circuit route for my 2 channel and have a bunch of questions:

1) Considering I’ve never tripped my 15 amp daisy chained circuit with my current load, does it make sense to add just one dedicated 20 amp line for the amp and source gear or two dedicated 20 amp circuits—one for a single ended tube amp and one for source gear (DAC/Streamer/Preamp/Future ZROCK2).

2) I have heard conflicting opinions on this but the code says to use 12 Awg or higher.  A lot of forum folks and Paul from PS Audio says go with 10 awg.  However, I spoke to 3 different dealers yesterday and every single one of them Pooh poo’d the idea of going the 10 awg route and said to use 12.  Any opinions on this?

3) If I do end up opting for two dedicated 20 amp circuits (irrespective of gauge), how important is it to keep the wires far apart from each other? I’ve heard that the wires need to be at least a foot away from each other to minimize any EMI/RFI.   How critical is it to keep the wires the same length?

4) Do I need to also ensure any of the wires is at least a foot away from my in wall Ethernet cable?

5) My breaker box is conveniently placed at the back of my listening room/basement and the contractor who also does electrical work was saying that the easiest method would be to route the wires from the breaker along the top or bottom of my side walls (not inside the walls—rather outside) to the termination point in the front of the room.  This way, we don’t have to worry about demo’ing the sheet rock for an internal placement and keeping the dedicated 20 amp circuit or circuits next to the 15 amp outlet.  Does it make any sense to have a sub-panel dedicated to 2 channel placed in the front of the room and just running wires from there? It would shorten the distance but not sure if it’s worth the added cost and or sonic benefit?

I may have more questions, but wanted to get juices flowing.  

For now, I’ve purchased two hospital grade outlets from Shunyata for this project but could probably return one.  Even if I don’t get the dedicated line or lines, I do at least want to change to the higher grade receptacle.

Kamran,

Well written post and questions. Thank you. It is easier to answer from this rather than having to ask a bunch of questions in reply to your post.

So, ok, I am with your electrician with the idea of running the wire the way that he suggested. IMO, I would want it to be run in metal conduit as a shield for the AC wire and just better wearability. Might even be code in your area.
Secondly, Given the fact that you are running low current equipment (as a system) there is really no need for two 20 amp circuits. If in fact you still want to go that way now is the time to make the decision, because of increased cost later. This also applies to the gauge wire to be used, although again, given your circumstances, 12 ga. wouldn't be a sin.
The fact that you haven't tripped a breaker in your present AC source isn't the reason to choose a dedicated line in the first place. What it accomplishes is just that, a dedicated run, that will not be as influenced by other outlets/appliances/noise from other AC lines. The noise part is only true to a point, but worth mentioning.
What I see as the one of the most important aspects of this action is the reduction of connections between your breaker box and the audio system.
In short, no, I do not recommend a sub panel in this case.
Yes, it would be best if you can maintain distance from ethernet cables as well as other electrical cables. If you are going to run two separate 20 amp circuits (which I doubt you will even have future use for), then it will be a challenge to keep them separated, unless of course you have money to burn.
Ask your electrician to humor you into having the 20 amp breaker close to the main buss as possible. When I worked for the phone company running big circuits, we used the connections closest to the main buss as possible when noise might be a concern.
One other thing. It may be wise to have a 20 amp. GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter? I don't remember) breaker installed for the sake of safety. It's serves better in that location than downstream towards the audio system.
So, yes, I did everything listed above and a lot more when I rewired my old house. It started from the power pole and ended at each outlet. Would do it again, no question about it.

Paul2 and 4krow—Thanks to both of you for your thoughtful responses.  One common item between both your posts was the addition of a new pole outside your house.  I was under the impression that single family house owners don’t necessarily lay claim to poles carrying electricity to their house—that they belong to the utility company and that we don’t have any power over them  (no pun intended) to have a pole replaced. In other words, we control our destiny inside the house vs. PSE&G controls it outside the house.  Curious, what benefit does a new pole provide?

Yea the point I was trying to make when I said that I never trippped the 15 amp circuit was to say that even with the current load—Denon AVR, Networking Gear, PlayStation, Philips Hue lighting hub, TV, DAC, Streamer, Preamp, Class A Tube Amp, all daisy chained on the same circuit, I’ve never had an issue overloading the circuit.  That said, I do realize the importance of having a direct/dedicated line that will negate any interference/noise these other (non 2 channel) gear may be introducing in to the system.

The electrician rolled his eyes when I said that I preferred 10 awg wire.  He said that was overkill.  I was confident in that stand until I called 3 independent Hifi dealers and they all said the same thing—go for 12 awg.  I am just thinking out loud, if I were to drop the idea of a second dedicated line because of all the complication of routing and keeping wires equidistant from the breaker and away from other lines, then does it make sense to make up the loss by actually sticking with 10 awg.  In other words, does it make sense to go all out, if I am only concentrating on one run.  I get the sense that electricians dislike working with 10 awg wires, because its a PITA to deal with but if it’s not too much extra over 12 awg, I wonder if it’s something to consider.  Besides Paul from PS Audio though, I can’t recall any other audiophile being so adamant about a 10 awg run.

I’ve also heard some people talk about separate earth/ground rods for 2 channel.  Is that a thing or does the existing ground rod sufficient to tap in to?

Not sure I can add much, but I did use 10awg and a 20 amp breaker when I installed my dedicated line. I had the wire already, so why not use it.

Before I did the dedicated line I was getting pops when the bathroom fan upstairs turned on or off, the AC compressor - pop, furnace, pop. I added a Furman and it tamed it. Since my box is behind the wall near where I wanted the outlet it wasn't a long run and I had also had access to the back of the wall.  I ran the line and added a PS port port outlet. No more noise.

Within the last year I upgraded power cables. Well, I was about 5' short to the outlet. Dammit. Opened the outlet box and made an extension whip out of more 10awg. I used a PVC jacket to cover the wire and mounted the outlet next to the rack. This can be easily undone if we move. When I added the whip I also added a $35 Monosaudio outlet from Amazon. I can't tell a difference between it and the PS Power Port.

10awg IS a pain to work with and the electrician may be keeping cost in consideration when shaking his head. If I didn't have the 10awg, would I have bought it? Probably, since I only needed maybe 15' of it for the run.

For me and the equipment I had/have, anything more than adding a dedicated line was overkill in my head. Everyone's situation is different.

4krow—your thorough feedback with excellent examples is highly appreciated.  You have convinced me to stick with 12 ga. Wire.  Paul’s motivations for 10 ga. Wire made a lot of sense when you put it that way.  I definitely want to do my research and educate myself before messing with the room again and your feedback has been invaluable. Hopefully, it’s also useful to others who might be in the same boat.

As for rods, I was just curious since I noticed a number of audiophiles recommending it while also admitting that it might be illegal.  Looks like they didn’t care.  Again, more of a curiosity than anything else. Not touching that with a 10 ft. Pole.

Thinking out loud—I wonder if there is a more acoustically optimal way to shield the 12 ga. Wire inside the room vs. using a metal conduit.  I wonder if it would cause unwanted reflections…

JOMAN—what a coincidence!

For the past 24 hrs, I’ve been obsessing over the Puritan Audio conditioner. I first noticed it as a teaser in Hi-Fi Cave’s YT video and then went down a rabbit hole of looking at their live demos from various trade shows over the past couple of years and was utterly gobsmacked at the difference I was seeing.  Then I also saw the video from Steve Hoffman who said that it was one of the best purchases he’s made in the past decade or so and that it outperformed his previous Power Plant, which is like 4x the price.  It was the only solution that completely eliminated his transformer hum.  Notable mention was the video from OCD Mickey, who as jaded as he is about 2 channel gear, was also speechless when he tested it in his rig.

Add to that two excellent reviews from Moon Audio and Stereotimes, I’m just flabbergasted that more ppl aren’t shouting the brands’ name from the rooftops.

As I was trying to get my ducks in a row for a dedicated circuit, I was thinking that maybe I won’t need such a device after a dedicated run. You just absolved me of that notion. I was thinking of e-mailing the company to confirm that it would work on a 20 amp circuit, but looks like that is the case.

Didn’t understand the point about the Decware cables not working. Can you elaborate? How will the new cables help?

Thanks for sharing Dominick—would love to know more when you get a chance. I’m estimating a run of at least 25ft. Just from the back of the room (where the panel is) to the front wall is 17 ft.

Oh….one more point I forgot to mention……I run an Earthcalm whole home EMF protector which is based off the Schumann Resonance frequency cycles.  It’s an older version….but I have been using this way before my Decware system.  

This is a whole another topic of conversation that needs its own discussion….but I can say I noticed some major changes in the way my body responded after it was installed.  I firmly believe this has a direct correlation to my audio system.  

Dom

Yes, that’s exactly what I read in a review that anything attached to that receptacle to which the PSM 156 is plugged into also gets cleaned up. Though, I’ve also heard Shunyata Noise Reduction power cords having the same affect.

Speaking of Shunyata, they definitely have the street cred and the tech to probably go toe to toe with Puritan but at the expense of astronomically high prices. I do have the Venom 10 NR saved in my hifi shark searches looking for a deal to come by.

This is such a fascinating topic. So much to explore.

I might have gotten lucky when I bought this home last year.
The house was built in 2002 and we have a 200Amp service.
There are dedicated lines with 20A breakers for each room and in some cases multiples, for instance the kitchen has three not counting the 220V service for the range. One is shared with outdoor GFCIs, though.

The family "great room" has four circuits including plugs, fans and lighting options. Believe me, it took a while to map this shit out when I first moved in. I had sticky notes everywhere trying to figure out what did what!

My little sunroom turned into sound room has two, but one has a ceiling fan and the backdoor lighting fixture on it. The other circuit is dedicated to the wall outlets, but an additional could be a benefit, I suppose.

There is a dedicated line added long ago to power the out of date Direct TV sat system that once lived here. I wonder if that circuit could be re-routed to my room as a second line for pure wall power.

Still, I would not say the service is clean, even though there are no poles or above ground transformers anywhere. All the cabling is underground in this little 'burg, except for some above ground access points for cable or old dead AT&T stuff and such.

If I was going to "add" something it might be a better grounding scheme than what we have going on here.

I wonder if there has been much thought to this "arm" of the electrical circuitry we have to live with.

I manage with just my older power filter, as long as I keep my sensitive cables about two feet away from the "concrete" grounding circuit in my room.
We've all seen the little two or three inch cable lifters, but it actually takes  a couple more squares of distance to make the difference I need from the grounding circuit, here.

I have not tried things without the Kleenline, but then, I have not done anything without it for about forty years.

Paul2,

 Yes, I remember reading about Mr. Fremer's AC system before and after the total rebuild in Stereophile magazine. As expected, I do have a thought or two about this. It bothers me that Mr. Fremer has had an electrical system that was so poor for years to audition and review many audio products over this time. His corroded connections and just about everything else was near disaster for 'clean power! What if Car &Driver tested a sports car on a dirt road?
 Each electrical system may have a special need here or there, mostly referring to ground. I am not going to go into this very deep except to say that each situation has a 'right way' to be dealt with. This is mostly in consideration of the soil conditions, maybe humidity, and even the water table.   Where I live is what we call a high desert. Not so hot but moisture/precipitation is low. About 7 inches a year but usually less. The soil in my part of the town is a sandy loam, meaning it won't hold moisture as well as say a clay type soil. Ok, so what did I do about my situation? It was a fortunate thing that I have a water well very near to the house. It is 25 feet deep, with a VERY heavy iron pipe extending the whole length. Pretty obvious to anyone interested in a great ground to 'tap' into this pipe as the ultimate ground rod. The bottom of the pipe likely sits in water as there is a very large irrigation ditch that runs by our house maybe 50 yards away. By now you get my point. I really don't worry about the quality of the ground that I have. This is, of course, in addition to the Power Company's 10 foot long copper ground rod (which, by the way, they couldn't pound all the way down so about 3 feet of it is parallel to the surface of the ground). Not good, but that is what you have to watch for every freaking step of the way if you aren't doing it yourself.
Whew. Another long winded response, yet in order to be clear, you have to 'make clear'.

I have had variable power voltage and variable noise for years, sometimes pretty good, and sometimes not. Usually it runs for longer periods of time rather than day and night being starkly different (like many seem to suffer). I have my own transformer here, but it shares utility power with 16 other homes and their individual transformers on the power company "loop" that covers our road.

I am using three power "filter" setups, all of them fine tuned with some better parts and having really nice cords feeding them, those cables fine tuned for the work too. Those that were not purpose built and therefore tuned to musical transparency made the originals a lot more resolving, fast, and musical... and the benefits add up.

It starts with a Mapleshade receptacle, not in your face bold sounding, or warm, or anything (like many audio plugs), but the most transparent and resolving receptacle I have tried here. Then there is a 500 watt Chinese production balanced power supply that is really nicely made. The balanced transformer feeds a PSA P5 used mainly for amps, but a few other things. I got it for voltage regulation, the specific voltage really effecting the sound of my Decware amp's tones and densities, especially if the swings are more than one volt, or if the voltage is running high, like 123. I have an Audio Brickwall straight into the Mapleshade receptacle for sources. I also have some mineral noise adjusters scattered around, and built into cables, and a couple filter plugs, one Shunyata for sources, and one Furutech in the P5.

None of this solved the transformer noise from my Decware, improved in some cases, but more effective here was putting properly tuned-to-sound caps across the AC of the amps.

That said, I don't think this place is that bad in terms of negative sound from noise other than transformer noise... Back in the day anyway, it sounded pretty resolving without any of my power treatment relative to transparency and revelation. But it all helps when fine tuned for sure here. Especially in subtler areas it is notably better at allowing the finer nuanced information, and with stable/selectable voltage and phase from the P5, it leads to consistent and nicely tunable sound.

For periods (like now) I can hardly hear transformer hum except near the amps, and a little in the speakers with ear right there, but really not an issue for me. But sometimes, it can get loud enough to bug me. Probably hyper sensitive as it never seems bad enough to do notable damage to the musical experience, but in these noisier periods, for movies where the amps are almost maxed, during silence, I can just pick it up at the seat... irritating to me.

I have had tubes, and ground loops effect noise too, so it can be a pain to sort. But speaking of ground, I have been thinking my noise variability is perhaps largely due to dryness! I live in high desert also, and if the ground rod for the house gets dry, it seems then my noise can go up, sometimes notably. It took me a long time to consider "watering" the ground rod area as a first step, but I started to notice that in drier periods with the nearby hose bib not leaking, if it rained or snowed for a spell, or if we had a leak at the irrigation bib, it would seem fine.... Not conclusive, but I think a good guess, so I need to test the theory next time it gets more noisy... start by watering the ground!

It may be this power and room, but I have a number of shielded power cables and a number that are not, those not shielded having geometry and passive filtering designed for noise cancelation and some RF/EMF protections. Last time I tried, I could not hear notable (noise) differences between these "unshielded" and shielded cables. I don't doubt some rooms might need heavier atmospheric noise shielding, just not my experience here, and I do have wired internet, with ethernet to fiber to ethernet filtering... no wifi in the house knowingly.

I have not explored 12 versus 10 gauge on an independent line as this is an adobe house and hard to add hidden wire runs. Also seeming to have pretty good power relatively speaking keeps me lazier. And my power cleaning setup has gotten really good!

But one day I expect I will try to make a 10 gauge cryo'd dedicated run... leading me to.....

One thing that occurs to me reading this thread is that it seems perhaps a little more focussed on decisions based on current/voltage tech over sound?... and these may or may not correlate. I have explored a lot of cable designs, and gauge always influences the sound whether ICs, power cables, or interior hookup wires for amp power or signal... all with my low AC power consuming system and gear.... I am miles from combined gear rated specs even approaching my audio plug's wire gauge or receptacle specs...

And this is not to say 10 might conclusively sound better than 12 gauge... but it implies to me that it could, and that it likely would effect the sound one way or another even if way overkill for AC current and voltage. Better or worse sound, can't say. With power cables I have made, a little too big gauge-wise, and all else the same, the sound gets thicker and darker. Too light gauge, leaner with less punch... And right in the middle is always a nice balance all round.

But why would I use 10 gauge here??? A guy who I learned a lot from over time has some of the most refined and discerning listening methods and skillsets I have run across, and he has heard and set up lots and lots of high end gear and systems (one of the Tranquility DAC developers). Last I asked him, he preferred 10 gauge cryo'd for a dedicated run... He AB tests everything before making assumptions or declarations, usually many times, and typically gets corroboration from his small clan of other audio heads he trusts to hear balances and subtle information exceptionally well... As far as I know he too is not close maxing out the ratings for 10 gauge runs. Just a little more for the thought pot.

I wired a large leather shop with 10 ga. It was awful, but this case, the runs were long and I convinced the owner that this was the right thing to do given the length. Having said that there are receptacles that the wire doesn't have to be wound around a screw/bolt, and that is half the battle. [To yet again be clear about this, I am NOT talking about those cheapo outlets that have a hole that stick the wire into but are NOT tightened by a screw, they should be illegal) If it is wound around like that, you actually feel the outlet grieve (I mean to say I am surprised that it did not mechanically fail given the small space that everything has to be put back into). So, if you go this route, at least get a decent sized electrical box to bend this evil solid conductor. Just my opinion. And then probably there are holes in the back of the outlet where you can stick the wire straight in and those same screws will tighten down on that. I highly recommend this procedure rather than trying to get them around a screw that they barely fit anyway. IME, a tip about flattening the wire before it is put into the hole on the back of the outlet golden. You simply compress the 10 ga. with smooth jawed pliers so that there is greater contact in the outlet. That way you won't be trying compress the fat wire with those screws in the outlet. I would go so far as to say that no harm would be done by using TWO outlets in a 4 plex box instead of the regular single. Weird that I say that? Consider this>>> when you try clamp only one wire in an outlet hole, the pressure is uneven on one side. By adding another wire (that goes to the second outlet in the same box) there is a wire on BOTH sides of the clamping nut, allowing the screw thread to pull evenly. This will work even better since you have already partially flattened the 10 ga. wire to begin with. Just had to say something about this before you pull the trigger. I have nothing against 10 ga. in theory, but unless you actually worked with it, you can't know what a demon it can be, sometimes ending up in a compromised connection.
FWIW, even though the wires that worked at the phone company offices were stranded, each strand was probably about 16 ga. resulting in just one conductor being the size of your thumb and much larger when needed. There was a very particular practice for ALL connections that we made.

Thanks, 4krow, no rush to pull the trigger until I get all this figured out.  This has been enlightening.  If the 10 ga. Wires can be flattened to fit in to the outlet, that gives me hope.

Will: I’m excited that you’re familiar with VH Audio and can back up their expertise/integrity.  I actually was planning on speaking with them as well. I filled out their contact form hours ago and hoping to get in touch with them tomorrow.

Thanks Andy. I been following this thread wondering if anyone was going to hit on the real root of needs for a heavier gauge wire to supply line voltage to audio amps. Also trying to figure on the best way to word it. The article link you posted is a must read for anyone who wants to understand the demands that an amp puts on the power supply!



John

One additional comment from me FWIW...

For the most part I fully agree with what was stated in the paper and have tried to do as much as is possible and I also agree on the matter of attention to the connections at all junctures.

But I STRONGLY disagree with the first statement in the following quote:

Quote:


I fully agree with the following statements that a power conditioner must be non current limiting and must not add to or shape the signal in any manner.

The reason for a power conditioner is the same, in part, as is the reason for going to shielded cables as are the DHC3 and DHC2.  There are other factors as well.

This has become such a great thread.  I have some updates:

Communicated with Chris from VHAudio.  His responses were enlightening and I will recreate it here for the benefit of all:

Q: Assuming you see no problems with the wires being routed outside the interior wall vs. inside?  

No problem, not as long as your electrician says it’s OK, and meets code.

Q: How important is it for both wires to be of the same length?

Not very important UNLESS you will be operating monobloc amps with one amp on each circuit. I like to maintain symmetry for each L & R channel. Otherwise, the different lengths won’t matter much...

Q: How important is it for both wires to be at least a foot apart so as not to introduce unwanted  RFI/EMI?

The magnetic fields decrease logarithmically with distance, so just a few inches is fine. In many homes, the lines are all bundled together, so it’s not a huge deal...

Q: Will the 10 gauge wire accommodate some bending? As you can see, that side wall is not a straight shot to the front of the room.  We will need to navigate multiple bends before we reach the front.

Yes, although I’d try to avoid an acute bend like an “L” and go with a more gentle bendlike a “J”

Hopefully, this is helpful for other enthusiasts….

Separately, I got a confirmation from Shunyata that their outlets are actually designed with 10 awg in mind so making a clean connection without pigtailing isn’t an issue.

I am meeting with a licensed electrician (hopefully, this weekend). I explained to him what I was trying to do and even sent him the MSB Article and VH Audio’s website so he can see what wire I want to order.  

More to come!

I see your jumping in head over heels Kamran Your enthusiasm brings back reminiscent memories of discoveries made when embarking on my journey in audio.

4krow's concerns are legit when it comes to wiring 10 gauge wire using 20 amp devices. It may be a tuff sale for your electrican to go along with. He may want to charge a premium for this or pass. Two 12 gauge romex loosely twisted, if space permits, could be used that would give a 9 gauge net. I ran 3 circuits to the back of my audio equipment. One is a home run for the audio. The other two were parallel circuits running down the walls feeding outlets in the Charoit. I use the two to plug in the TV and non related equipment(read electrical noisy devices like wall warts and such).

I really don't see any purpose of cryo treated romex wiring. But if one wants to spend the extra and it gives peace of mind

Good luck!

John

I should have noted that my home run circuit is 40' of 12 gauge romex. 10 gauge would help bring that 4v drop down guite a bit. Go with 10 gauge!

John

Going out on a limb here. Do they make Romex with multiple conductors, i.e. specifically 4 12 ga. conductors and 1 14 ga. for earth ground? Probably be pretty fat, but still easier to pull than separate Romex in the same conduit. But then I guess we were also discussing the running of two different Romex cables in two different conduits.
Don't mean to muddy the waters here, just trying to consider each option. The multi-conductor Romex would allow for twisting of the conductors in groups of two, leaving one conductor for earth ground. And as mentioned above, the result is actually a 9 ga. result.
Since the space heater experiment is showing continuous current as opposed to peak current, can they be compared? I do get that peak current of a large amplifier would be comparable, but am not so convinced using a 'flea watt' amp. I suppose it would also be dependent on the total system draw.  This is where I would first check every connected component of the system to add up total (not necessarily peak) amperage and then proceed with a decision from there.
Knowing me though, if I had the choice to begin with, I would just choose the 10 ga. and be done with it. I build furniture the same way, and seemingly everything else as well.

John,

Point taken. My thinking about such things extends to most of the important issues in life. I remember getting the eye roll from a contractor helping me build my fence many years ago. Every post was to be steel pipe and every post was to have 3 bags of concrete poured into a 2 ft deep hole. Steel hangers were welded by me on every post to support the wooden stringers that were lag screwed to every hanger, and on it went like that. 14 years later, the fence still looks like new, without a single post (out of 34) out of plumb.
 So, it is not a hard job to convince me to 'overbuild'.

Nail on the head there, Will.

I always listen first to everything. Especially considering any changes I've made. What I hear is what drives my next path/move.

Sometimes I try to measure to either confirm or identify what I hear, but again, only a part of the whole story can be revealed by measuring.
Measurements can never tell the "whole" truth. They can help you along the way to finding some truths, but nothing more than that.

After reading through that article about upgrading wire gauge, if I was to re-route and re-purpose that unused run of cable and breaker that almost reaches my room with 12ga, I would need to upgrade to 6ga, in keeping with their theory, for the length of run from my breaker box.
I can not imagine any electrical professional accepting that level of upgrade for a pair of two watt amps and a 1kW amp as necessary or as a job to take on.

I guess that idea is dead from the start.

JBz, thanks for that in depth analysis. What I see in your graph is what some of us old farts call clipping, although minor, still tells a big story.

All this talk added another project to a ever growing list. One that is well overdue. 50' of 12/2 WG was just ordered from Amazon. $30 cheaper then Home Depot. Turns out I installed Legrand surface mount boxes in the Charoit. HD does stock Legrand metal wire molding in 10' lenghts. One of those will be all that is needed to do the upgrade.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Legrand-Wiremold-500-Series-10-ft-Metal-Surface-Race...

Will definitely post on measured results!

John

Met with a highly recommended licensed electrician yesterday.  I had sent him the MSB article in advance and VH Audio’s website, but he didn’t read them because there was some confusion at first.  He was insistent that he would need to use 10/3 wire but when I mentioned that both lines need to be on the same phase, he said, oh ok—that changes things.  10/2 wire will work.  He did differ from the first contractor/electrician in routing the wires at the bottom of the wall all the way to the front vs. the contractor who wanted to route it along the top (I was gravitating towards the bottom anyways, which is good).  He said he would also use wiremold to hide the wires.  He showed me (without measuring) which leg was less noisy based on the load on each leg—one was markedly less loaded then the other—hence less noisy.  He also recommended I get a 40 ft length vs. 30 as I was estimating.  There will be some left over he said, but it’s better to be on the safe side.  Didn’t know about silver tungsten breakers but he was sure he could get some from the electrical supply house. I might just try to research that myself vs. leaving it up t him.

He also doesn’t come cheap.  Basically, with all the materials and labor, it will come out to a price of a ZROCK2 with the mods.  I have a bathroom project also running simultaneously—so I need to put some time and $$ in that as well (and the contractor who is finishing the bathroom project is the one I spoke to first since he does electrical too but I don’t have a quote from him yet).  However, I am happy that I have thoroughly researched the project and know exactly how I am going to go about it.  Going in to this, I had no idea that I could get my own Cryo’d romex, and now I do (and yes, it’s a piece of mind thing).  I already have the the outlets, and will start ordering the wire soon, and try to get the breakers too.  This has been such a great thread that really helped me out and I hope it also helps others embarking on a similar journey.

Your lucky she did not slap you up the side of the head. They easily pick up on those programmed responses.

Power conditioning is the real deal. Decware's approach is the VR tube insertion that does help but only part of a complete audio power cleaning system.

John

Good that you found some one willing to take time to understand your concerns with the installation. It has been over 15 years since I worked closely with electrical contractors. I found them to be an odd bunch that had peculiar habits and egos. Mysterious much like electricity. The premium that is being paid is the rub though and I recall the stories that electrical contractors told of when those special jobs paid a very good premium.

John

I don't see the logic of adding a dedicated earth ground for audio, if I'm reading you right. As long as the residential service has a ground rod, adding another one could create an easier path to ground for some devices in the residence...read "hum".

I can see doing a double ground rod 6' apart connected with a single(not spliced) copper conductor to the ground buss in the service panel. Doing anything different will invite trouble IMO.

John

Hi Kamran,

Good luck with your project and keep us informed on how it goes.  My power journey has been a long one starting with outlets, then power cords, power regenerators and a dedicated line.  I felt all were beneficial.

The biggest lift I got was from a PS Audio Powerplant.  I have particularly bad power here at my home.  

Lonely Raven brought over his behemoth P10 Powerplant and put it in my system and the impact was profound.  I went out the next week and bought a less expensive used unit.  In all, I've had three such units and currently have an older PS Audio P5 I bought from Lon.

This is probably for the power conditioning thread but Paul at PS Audio has been talking about conditioning vs regenerating in his last two daily Posts which may be worth a read.

Kamran,

Funny, delivery was taken on the 12/2 wire yesterday from Amazon. It was not in any retail packaging, much like yours. It was probably cut from old stock bulk reels. Most likely the reason for the low price.

I pushed yesterday to finish up cleaning another batch of 100 LPs so today could be spent on the install of wire. New breaker(s) will be installed from spares. The wire will not be matched in lenght to the other existing wire being it will be run a different way.

It has been my experience that there is voltage between earth ground and neutral on the mains of a power grid. 1 or 2 volts that is always present. In my neighborhood there are thousands(yours too) of power grid earth grounds all having this voltage potential. That potential varies. I believe the variance is mainly the result of what the particular ground rod is touching when inserted into the earth. By adding an additional grounding circuit in close proximity to an establish mains ground can only invite trouble because of this voltage potential and really a waste of resources in my opinion.

I like the Puritan conditioner and its approach to cleaning AC.

Edit: volt reference above should have been millivolt.
John

Kamran, I agree with John’s earlier post. I made some improvements to the circuit in my listening room, one of which was giving it its own separate ground. I never had hum issues until I did that, and once I removed it and went back to the original whole-house ground my hum issue disappeared. Bravo on all your other improvements though. I think you’re going to be happy with the new line otherwise.

The new wire has been installed and all is buttoned up. The load with the 1500 watt header upped the voltage drop by 2 volts with the capacitor bank energized. So an increase of 50% with (2)12/2 wires configured parallel from the breaker to outlet. With one 12/2 it dropped from 124v to 120v with 1500w load. Now with (2)12/2s 124v to 122v.

I get a feeling this is not completed to my satisfaction. It has been a while since the electrical boxes been opened. Turned out to be a rat nest without rats. This could have been done better. The main feed for the audio is in the sub panel(on the right second from bottom with 2 wires). There is an open breaker in the main panel near the top(on the right first single breaker after the 2 pole breaker). The shop can use another 20 amp circuit. So time to buy some 10 gauge and use that spare breaker in main panel for the audio feed and use the 12/2 to run a outlet to the shop. Will be easy now that conduit runs are in place.



John

Seems I’m talking to myself

Well the ears have it…I’ve been listening.

Those 2 volts simply cleared up congestion on busy passages and added staunch crispness to the ever present deep and wide Decware soundstage.

Good luck Kamran on the day of reckoning

John

I skimmed this thread so if this has been mentioned already I'll say it again.

Caig Deoxit gold is a great product to use on the connections. Every connection in the panel should be sprayed down with it.

Voltage changes really do make a difference with the way the system sounds. I've been very happy with the addition of the Torus AVR 15. I'm on the lookout for a good price on a used AVR 20. It doesn't keep the voltage as steady as PS Audio regenerators. I prefer the way the Torus sounds. More natural and dynamic.

Voltage fluctuation of over 10 volts is not uncommon in certain areas, last place I had 15v+ swings depending on time and if the air conditioner was running. That change does change how loud your system plays. It also effects gain riding. This means your system will sound different depending on how many volts are going into your equipment.

Torii MKV is 370 volt B+ voltage. For easy math lets call it 360v. That is 3 volts of B + per volt out of the wall.

115 v = 345 v B+
125 v = 375 v B+

VR tubes to the rescue! However, even with VR tubes the input voltage changes the sound.

Kamran, good luck with the dedicated line. In the next month or so I'm going to install mine.

I would say it's safe, shouldn't harm components. I've seen someone say that up to 5 volts over 120 and 5 percent THD is acceptable from a power company over the lines.

In using my power regenerator I can change the regulated voltage from 120 up . . . I've never run more than 123. The sound "thickens" slightly as you go over 120 so you are probably getting a bit of a warmer sound than if you were receiving a steady 120.

That's my 2 cents.

I'm with Lon. It's not ideal I'm betting most components can take +/- 10% or more and be AOK for a long long time.

Amazing Kamran!

This whole move of yours has inspired me and I am sure many others as well.

So much information linked here!
I felt like I was making headway upgrading my power cables and that is always good, but this thread makes me want to look deeper into what I am living with.

Thanks to all who contributed!

Looking forward to your impressions as things settle for you, Kamran.

Kamran, Great write up as usual! Exciting to have it all done.

I love seeing the faces of disbelief like the electricians!

Kamran, did you NOT hook your stereo up to the new lines yet?!? I would and run the fans when I wasn't listening. I'm still a little kid I guess  :D

John, Transformers do really well at correcting and eliminating certain power issues. I still run a Pi Audio UberBUSS after my Torus AVR, I actually run one before it too. The Torus even without the conditioner before or after makes a good difference. It's an autoformer so it does a rough voltage correction, keeping voltage at 120 +/- 4v

AVR Status
Voltage In:      122V
Voltage Out:      120V
Current Out:      4.1A

I'm guessing end of Feb I'll make getting the new line a priority. I'm down to the final stretch of redoing my new home.

Kamran, looking forward to your impressions.

So glad that you enjoy the fruits of effort and cost. It really can be an upgrade that shouldn't be overlooked. How long did it take in hours to complete the electrical work? And what kind of conduits did you end up using?

Forgot to mention this: to err on the side of caution, I over estimated the length of the wire for the project. I have two equal lengths of cryo’d wire leftover at approx 13ft and change. If anyone is interested in securing this at cost, just PM me.

About to start the listening session for day two, to confirm that yesterday wasn’t a fever dream.

Quote:


Sorry for the delay 4krow, I’ve been pretty distracted for the last day or two.

The whole job took about 4 hours and we agreed to use white plastic wiremold to make the home run aesthetically pleasing.  The electrician also noticed an existing bad breaker in the panel and he replaced that for me without charging extra.

Kamran,
IMO, and based on my experience, to get the full benefit of the Puritan conditioner you will need to use something other than the Puritan Classic cables for the mains lead to the conditioner and from the conditioner to the amp and pre amp.

The Classic cables are excellent to components that do not draw a lot of power...DAC's, Streamers and the Classic worked very well to the OPPO 103D.

The "rave" reviews of the PSM 156 were with the Puritan Ultimate as the mains cable.  That is an entirely different beast from the Classic.

JOMAN,  I am still considering the Puritan conditioner, and wondered if the top of the line Decware power cable would suffice.  Did you consider that option or for one reason or another ruled it out?

I'll be taking delivery of the DHC3s then and installing them when I get back home in March.  Saves a lot on clearance fees and taxes this way.

Thanks for the information JOMAN; I forget that you are from the "north country" as your English is so good.  ;)

I'll head over to your earlier post for further review.  Still, what you added is helpful, as I had missed that there was a third power cable: the Classic+.

Safe travels.

So this post is 24 hours in the making.  Yesterday at 4 pm, I crossed the two week break-in period of the dedicated circuits recommended by Chris at VH Audio.  Fans out, packed, and shipped back to Amazon.

Speaking of Amazon, I had ordered a dirty electricity meter that measures EMI.  Not really sure how reliable it is but the results it gave me, were interesting…

The old daisy chained 14 gauge outlet that fed both the conditioner and Dennis Had amp, gave me a reading of 110 mVp-p at 122 VAC, whereas both the new dedicated circuits were approx 200 mVp-p at 120/121 VAC.  With the Audioquest PowerQuest 3 conditioner plugged in to the dedicated circuit, 4 of the non-high current outlets dropped that by 50% with a reading of about 100 mVp-p and change.

The results were not what I expected, especially how less noisy that old daisy chained outlet is. I measured some other outlets in the chain and they were over 200 mvp-p.  So not sure what to make if it. But it was an interesting exercise.  I also have no further use of the tool, so it went back as well.

That said, the above measurements don’t necessarily coincide with what I am hearing.  Literally every single aspect of the rig has changed for the better, even with the comparatively more noisier line.  I did make one adjustment and introduced the second Puritan Classic + cable to the DAC (first one is plugged in to my streamer) and connected both to the best measuring outlets on the conditioner.  Then I took my Cullen Power Cable (that was previously powering the DAC) and switched it with the stock cable on my Schiit Freya preamp.  I figured that now I know which outlets on the conditioner are performing the best, let’s have the source gear connected to them—especially the two Puritan Classic + Cables, which have reportedly good shielding and should further lower the noise floor.

And finally to the listening test:

One of the albums I always return to when I have burned in shit is Cowboy Junkies’ ‘Trinity Sessions’.  I intended to listen to it yesterday but figured I’d give it a day as I also introduced a new Puritan cable to the mix.  I just finished the album 10 minutes ago and trying to type this before I lose track of the differences I heard:

Soundstage: The reverb of the church was more present than before—quite apparent that this was recorded in a large space. There was also a better sense of depth.  On some tracks, either the drum kit is way back or at least mic’d in such a way that it appears to be 3 rows back, but still clearly audible.

Space: Better separation and air between instruments—allowing me to appreciate not only the whole ensemble but also the tonality of each instrument.

Details/Tonality: Ironically, ‘Sweet Jane’, which to me, has never really sounded stupendously good as ppl make it out to be, sounded the best today.  The drum kit was mic’d to the left of Margo, so closer up, and both the tonality and delicacy of the cymbal hits was markedly more crisp and lifelike.  Thought I was hearing a completely new song.

Vocals: Margo’s vocals were ever so more intoxicating and melancholy.  I think, for the first time, I could hear her breath work more clearly and even the faint noise of her pressing her lips together as she took a breath.  

I love Wikipedia’s description of how this album unfolds like a continuously unfolding song. Well, it has always sounded like a continuously unfolding song, but today I felt like I was in the church with them—part of their hour long jam session.  For lack of a better term, it got personal, and I loved every second of it.

Ok, perhaps a few more tracks before I pack it in for the big game…

Hi GroovySauce,

I had seen these advertised and wondered if they might be worth a try. As you have given the 'GS" seal of approval, I just placed an order for a pair.  Did you also purchase the meter?

Kamran,

 I have been following this thread for some time, watching to see how things turn out. In spite of my interest, two points stand out to me about the procedure(s) used. Mostly that two fans were employed to break in the circuits installed? Why not just use it with your audio system in the first place? Then, correct me if I am wrong about this. You bought these fans from Amazon for the expressed purpose of breaking in the new circuits, knowing that when this was complete that the fans would be sent back to Amazon for refund? Would that be in the same thinking as going to an audio brick and mortar store to browse audio gear that you might want, and then order on the internet at a lower price? If I am wrong about this LMK, otherwise, it didn't sit well with me.

This is becoming a thread for the ages.  So much interesting and useful information to play with.  

GroovySauce—the EMF meter I used to measure was actually from the same company, so that makes me feel better about reliability.  While I’m sure that the conditioner is doing it’s job by drooping the EMF by 50% and then the Classic + cable providing additional shielding, the idea of providing less EMF from the get go, is certainly appealing.  My termination boxes are right on top of each other to keep the two lengths straight so I wonder if these reducers will block on of the outlets.  Also, assuming they don’t act like act a strip, and shunt power—in other words, if one of the receptecles is being blocked, I can just plug the amp or the conditioner right in to it.  The price for two isn’t earth shattering so I might look in to this….

Tony—you’re spot on.  GroovySauce’s seal of approval speaks volumes (no pun intended)

Dominick: Thanks for your input—I’m beginning to evaluate EMF outside of just audio now.  And would love to hear from Will if he reads this.

4krow—good to hear from ya.  Let me address both your points and (hopefully) put you at ease:

1) The equipment was also plugged in during break-in and I was listening almost each day during this period. I would just disconnect the fans when doing so.

2) Speaking of fans, there was a short discussion on whether to keep them or not post break-in and I decided to return them.  Amazon gives me that out.  Not only was I under the return window, but also one of the reasons Amazon provides for returns is:

“No longer needed”.

Hence, I don’t see anything ethically wrong about returning it since Amazon itself is allowing the very thing.  They will indeed inspect and re-sell it as an open box item.

As far as your analogy goes about brick and border stores—respectfully, I’m not sure it is applicable, since most big box stores price match with online retailers like Amazon.  There have been a number of times (though much less of late since I primarily rely on Amazon vs. venturing out to a store) I’ve been to a store like Target or Best Buy and if I saw the same item on Amazon for cheaper, and showed it to them—they reduced their price on the spot and the retailer thus kept the business.  Furthermore, there are still a number of items we just continue to buy from retail stores (like clothes) without checking anywhere else.  They just get our business—period.

Synthetic oil--I have been using it about 15 years. I was convinced when I changed it on my motorcycle and internal engine noise--which you can hear clearly--was diminished by about 20%.

Thanks GroovySauce for the clarification.  Protecting myself and fam from EMF hasn’t been on top of my radar but based on the last few posts, I’m beginning to investigate it more seriously.

4krow and GroovySauce:  I’m really striving to be part of and to help add to a harmonious online culture, where everyone respects each other, learns from each other, gives each other space, understand different perspectives, and agree to disagree in a civil manner.  While I don’t claim to be perfect, I’ve been making a concerted effort to follow the adage, ‘you have to give respect to gain respect’ with a lot of success and have developed relationships in our audiophile community that have been and continue to be very rewarding.

I look forward to learning more and making more friends along the way  :)

Kamran,

I’m glad this post has morphed a bit towards EMF protection/reduction.  It’s a topic I’m passionate about as well.  Once you start going down the rabbit hole…there’s no looking back.  

Groovy….yes I’ve been satisfied with my Earthcalm products.  I also have their usb stick that is meant to pug into the back of a router.  I actually bring it to work and use it in my work vehicle which houses a PC with WiFi and 4G, laser and radar equipment.  So for me i feel it’s a necessity.  How do you like the Blueshield cube?  It’s been on my radar for some time now.  Will had suggested that if I go with the Blueshield product line, that it may be wise to disconnect my Earthcalm product because the technologies in the two companies could possibly clash with each other.  

When I redid my house I ran close to 25 home run lines of CAT 6 cabling to help reduce the amount of WiFi in my home.  That coupled with the EMF reducer, any remaining WiFi should hopefully be mostly cancelled out.  My sister is an electrical engineer, and some the topics they talked about when she was in college was really out there and interesting.  

For those with IOS devices….download the app “Magnetology”.   It will tell you how strong the earth’s geomagnetic field is pulling on a given day.  It can effect communications and overall health.  I initially learned about it when flying drones….they said on any given day….if the app is showing a level 4 or a 5, then they recommend not to fly because  you can run the risk of miscommunication with the drone and lose it.
When I showed my sister the app….she said they use it among other things at work be use it could affect the power grid since she works for the Con Edison utility company in NY.

So my point is that if you are concerned about the long term health of you and your family, then becoming more aware and looking into one of these EMF reducing devices should be considered.  

Dom

I liked that singing pig saying also. Gave me a chuckle. It does apply from this point of view.

What I don't get is making good EMF to combat bad EMF? You want good EMF spend more time outdoors. EMF gadgets remind me of Cryogenic copper that gives piece of mind but not much else.

On a plus note Amazon does have a EMF meter with free returns

John

Boy, this thread is reminding me of where I used to work. Atop a mountain inside a microwave building/transmitter! If not there, I was often in a telephone central office building with more wiring and electrical fields than I can possibly explain. Literally surrounded by mountains of live wire all doing different things with different types of electronics. Yup, it did enter my mind often that NONE of this was healthy. It was like being a character in Tron. Remember Tron? Yah, but we didn't have the neat cars and stuff.

Sorry for not coming in earlier Dom. I must have deleted a notification for this thread, so stopped getting them.

I am no expert on electronic pollution, but have had some experience with it. I first noticed the problem for me personally when I was pretty ill, so sensitized. I was taking classes in a Five Elements diagnosis and healing method called Hoshindo. It is an ancient tradition, likely pre-acupuncture, where you use the stinger of the honeybee held in tweezers and tap meridian points rather than needling. For most work, one can get up to 20 (or more) taps from one stinger, so not much sensation... not like a sting. Each tap leaves a minuscule amount of venom near the skin surface, activating the point, in part by stimulating the body's histamine response to foreign proteins in the venom. Useful with meridian therapy, the little reaction lasts about a day.... Also there are medicinal agents in the venom that are anti-inflammatory, reduce calcifications, support brain healing, etc, that oddly seem functional in symptom resolution similarly to relatively high doses of the same things in more allopathic oriented medicine. And it is used to generally awaken muscular, or nerve, or organ function by increasing circulatory functions beyond meridian balancing.

I got into it because the woman who became my teacher and friend was developing a good following from having helped people with chronic imbalances which western medicine could not solve, long term chronic Lyme disease being one of those. After being made vulnerable with damages from a car wreck, in combination with (undiagnosed at the time) Lyme taking off in my weakened state, I got and stayed ill and in severe pain for a very long time. Lyme is opportunistic and stealth, and good at messing the host up in all kinds of ways. And in my case, along with constant pain we had associated mainly with the wreck for years, the combination was literally killing me. With Hoshindo, I pretty quickly felt improved, including some things this thread's turn toward EMF/RF mitigation point to... Feeling more grounded, the balancing from treatment apparently overrode some of the wild energy of long chronic pain and associated organ imbalances and healing impediments, while also slowly helping resolve sensitivity to less than good food, air, water, drugs, etc, including as it turned out... EMF and RF.

At the time I was developing a healing method of working on all systems at once as a means to help people actually shift habituated patterns... all systems balanced together in one treatment supported real and lasting change...not falling back into the "comfort" of habituation as easily. So Hoshindo was attractive as an addition to this method and I joined a small group of students to learn it. Though still highly compromised myself, since I had been working on my teacher with my methods, as she worked on me with hers, she trusted my abilities and sensibilities. So luckily, along with our healing sessions working together on each other, she was supportive of my taking her class even though I could only attend classes half days due to my disabilities and illness from long-term wreck damage, chronic Lyme and associated maladies.



Long preamble, but I struggled to get through the end of the morning sessions, starting out each day feeling relatively well, and ending with brain fog, fatigue, irritability... I would leave dizzy and weak... out of balance. One day I got home and almost passed out walking in the front door. Luckily my wife was there helping me get stable enough not to hit the brick floor. In the sort of dreamy state of passing out, I had a perfect vision of the power line running right outside my teacher's waiting room windows where we held lecture classes.

So I was talking with a MD friend who had been exploring EMF and RF some, and he had a measuring kit he loaned me. One tool I measured with was a Stetzerizer meter. At the time they were a pretty widely used (in these small circles), I am thinking an earlier available system similar to what the Greenwave turns out to be. Both filter dirty electricity in the power lines. So the meters measure our AC system, specifically wires and outlets, and plugin units filter that noise. This, in turn, is supposed to reduce the EMF fundamentals and harmonics that radiate off our electronic house parts and wires into our living environments, including powered motors, power-supplies, etc. My teacher's class space was part of a medical center with lots of practitioners, so lots of noisy computers, wifi, fluorescent lights, refrigerators, etc. It measured "off the charts" for dirty electricity with the plugin Stetzerizer meter.

I also checked the "air" space with a Trimeter, which is not just from what we generally associate with EMF/RF, like wifi, etc, but also bleed off power lines, wiring, transformers, etc. becoming makers, conductors and radiators of electronic noise that we tend to grow accustomed to and resonate with. With the Trimeter, the EMF/RF levels were high enough that some northern European studies associated these levels with childhood leukemia. I have not looked in quite a while, but these were places where realer studies less biased by corporate influence have been done, so good for those of us who have found symptomatic issues with electronic pollution, and wondered why.

These are way higher frequencies than the core energy of the earth's actual magnetic resonance, or the Schumann Resonance, the fundamental of the space between the earth surface and ionosphere... So the fundamental frequencies we are genetically programed by, grounded by, relaxed by, healed by, are being overwhelmed by these electronic frequencies we have become dependent on. Our "natural earth frequencies" are roughly 5-8 Hz, so when we inadvertently entrain/resonate with the more and more dominating frequencies from 60 Hz with house power, all its harmonics, and on up to microwave frequencies filling our spaces, it is not surprising that this confuses and agitates the electrical systems of our bodies.

Next Hoshin class, I went in early and plugged in an EarthCalm and a few Stetzerizer filters I had ordered to try in our house. No one but me and my teacher knew, and I thought the class felt notably better, less agitated, calmer/more grounded, less tiring... As we were winding up the class, without any indication of having done anything unusual, I snuck out a comment like: "nice class," which led to others agreeing and the conversation shifted to trying to identify why we seemed easier and more comfortable... what felt different after the class, hoping maybe we could figure out how to cultivate that. Somewhat subtle, but others pretty much described what I thought I was noticing but had not told them. Common comments were, more calm, more cognizant, less agitated, and interestingly, more than one felt like the air felt a little wet and cool, calming. Finally showing them the devices I had snuck in, the consensus was to keep some for the room.

Now this was sensitive folks, but was an interesting "test" about noticing something only by mitigating it. As I understand it, the filters make a lot of sense, caps and resistors smoothing electronic noise. So that is one part. Then Earth Calm and others seem to be more about supporting less association/entrainment with unhealthy agitating frequencies by providing another source of healthy frequencies for us to entrain with more easily. So it seems the reason the Schumann Resonance and similar are used for mitigating electro-toxicity, in theory, is not that these devices clean EMF/RF from the air. More... it seems they provide our environment with more of the earth resonance frequencies we were created with... and our healing and grounding "earth frequencies" stronger, they allow us to more easily entrain with the ever-present, but overwhelmed, resonant earth frequencies we evolved to thrive with. By entraining with our grounding frequencies more, we are less impacted by agitating man-made frequencies. At the same time, more "grounded," our personal body/mind electronic system can more easily relax and function more healthfully... part of which, presumably, more easily draining off (grounding) the agitating frequencies of electronic pollution.

I got onto this first with a Kemp Schumann resonator a long time ago, helping clarify my audio, but also feeling better with it on. So to me, associations with audio and health eventually had to merge, as this thread turn is implying... and why not! Electro noise and many other frequencies in excess (for us) are agitating to sound gear and to us!


Dom, I am not clear on the Earth Calm/Blushield potential conflicts. I am just comparatively energetically sensitive, as was my wife. And testing our old Earth Calm system with the newer Blushield, individually and together, we felt better with just the Blushield.  EDIT: I should say that the EarthCalm system we had was an older version than now, maybe 10 years old? I have not investigated the newer ones, or know how they compare.

Another worth-a-look toolset. When we were looking to put in solar, at the time EMF/RF and dirty electricity appeared to me to be a real issue with inverters. But before putting that on the back burner, I was looking into this company for whole house energy cleaning:

https://saticshield.com/products/

Still interested, but for now, my Stetzerizer and BlueShield, along with an adobe house (not good for wifi) and using all ethernet for the net (no wifi), I am doing pretty well. But thanks for the reminder... I need to try one of these units or similar.

Thanks John. Lucky you. By then, Lyme was less denied, more studied, and diagnosed more. And a short hit of antibiotics was showing to usually be effective for early stage Lyme. My sister lives in Wisconsin in an area that is something like second in incidence to the Lyme, CT area, so lots of Lyme. And I think I recall them saying, if caught right away, one antibiotic dose can get it. So they keep Amoxicillin or whichever is the preferred antibiotic these days in the house.

I agree. Careful aerobic exercise seems to be beneficial in many, many ways.