Good that you found some one willing to take time to understand your concerns with the installation. It has been over 15 years since I worked closely with electrical contractors. I found them to be an odd bunch that had peculiar habits and egos. Mysterious much like electricity. The premium that is being paid is the rub though and I recall the stories that electrical contractors told of when those special jobs paid a very good premium.

John

I don't see the logic of adding a dedicated earth ground for audio, if I'm reading you right. As long as the residential service has a ground rod, adding another one could create an easier path to ground for some devices in the residence...read "hum".

I can see doing a double ground rod 6' apart connected with a single(not spliced) copper conductor to the ground buss in the service panel. Doing anything different will invite trouble IMO.

John

Hi Kamran,

Good luck with your project and keep us informed on how it goes.  My power journey has been a long one starting with outlets, then power cords, power regenerators and a dedicated line.  I felt all were beneficial.

The biggest lift I got was from a PS Audio Powerplant.  I have particularly bad power here at my home.  

Lonely Raven brought over his behemoth P10 Powerplant and put it in my system and the impact was profound.  I went out the next week and bought a less expensive used unit.  In all, I've had three such units and currently have an older PS Audio P5 I bought from Lon.

This is probably for the power conditioning thread but Paul at PS Audio has been talking about conditioning vs regenerating in his last two daily Posts which may be worth a read.

Kamran,

Funny, delivery was taken on the 12/2 wire yesterday from Amazon. It was not in any retail packaging, much like yours. It was probably cut from old stock bulk reels. Most likely the reason for the low price.

I pushed yesterday to finish up cleaning another batch of 100 LPs so today could be spent on the install of wire. New breaker(s) will be installed from spares. The wire will not be matched in lenght to the other existing wire being it will be run a different way.

It has been my experience that there is voltage between earth ground and neutral on the mains of a power grid. 1 or 2 volts that is always present. In my neighborhood there are thousands(yours too) of power grid earth grounds all having this voltage potential. That potential varies. I believe the variance is mainly the result of what the particular ground rod is touching when inserted into the earth. By adding an additional grounding circuit in close proximity to an establish mains ground can only invite trouble because of this voltage potential and really a waste of resources in my opinion.

I like the Puritan conditioner and its approach to cleaning AC.

Edit: volt reference above should have been millivolt.
John

Kamran, I agree with John’s earlier post. I made some improvements to the circuit in my listening room, one of which was giving it its own separate ground. I never had hum issues until I did that, and once I removed it and went back to the original whole-house ground my hum issue disappeared. Bravo on all your other improvements though. I think you’re going to be happy with the new line otherwise.

The new wire has been installed and all is buttoned up. The load with the 1500 watt header upped the voltage drop by 2 volts with the capacitor bank energized. So an increase of 50% with (2)12/2 wires configured parallel from the breaker to outlet. With one 12/2 it dropped from 124v to 120v with 1500w load. Now with (2)12/2s 124v to 122v.

I get a feeling this is not completed to my satisfaction. It has been a while since the electrical boxes been opened. Turned out to be a rat nest without rats. This could have been done better. The main feed for the audio is in the sub panel(on the right second from bottom with 2 wires). There is an open breaker in the main panel near the top(on the right first single breaker after the 2 pole breaker). The shop can use another 20 amp circuit. So time to buy some 10 gauge and use that spare breaker in main panel for the audio feed and use the 12/2 to run a outlet to the shop. Will be easy now that conduit runs are in place.



John

Seems I’m talking to myself

Well the ears have it…I’ve been listening.

Those 2 volts simply cleared up congestion on busy passages and added staunch crispness to the ever present deep and wide Decware soundstage.

Good luck Kamran on the day of reckoning

John

I skimmed this thread so if this has been mentioned already I'll say it again.

Caig Deoxit gold is a great product to use on the connections. Every connection in the panel should be sprayed down with it.

Voltage changes really do make a difference with the way the system sounds. I've been very happy with the addition of the Torus AVR 15. I'm on the lookout for a good price on a used AVR 20. It doesn't keep the voltage as steady as PS Audio regenerators. I prefer the way the Torus sounds. More natural and dynamic.

Voltage fluctuation of over 10 volts is not uncommon in certain areas, last place I had 15v+ swings depending on time and if the air conditioner was running. That change does change how loud your system plays. It also effects gain riding. This means your system will sound different depending on how many volts are going into your equipment.

Torii MKV is 370 volt B+ voltage. For easy math lets call it 360v. That is 3 volts of B + per volt out of the wall.

115 v = 345 v B+
125 v = 375 v B+

VR tubes to the rescue! However, even with VR tubes the input voltage changes the sound.

Kamran, good luck with the dedicated line. In the next month or so I'm going to install mine.

I would say it's safe, shouldn't harm components. I've seen someone say that up to 5 volts over 120 and 5 percent THD is acceptable from a power company over the lines.

In using my power regenerator I can change the regulated voltage from 120 up . . . I've never run more than 123. The sound "thickens" slightly as you go over 120 so you are probably getting a bit of a warmer sound than if you were receiving a steady 120.

That's my 2 cents.

I'm with Lon. It's not ideal I'm betting most components can take +/- 10% or more and be AOK for a long long time.

Amazing Kamran!

This whole move of yours has inspired me and I am sure many others as well.

So much information linked here!
I felt like I was making headway upgrading my power cables and that is always good, but this thread makes me want to look deeper into what I am living with.

Thanks to all who contributed!

Looking forward to your impressions as things settle for you, Kamran.

Kamran, Great write up as usual! Exciting to have it all done.

I love seeing the faces of disbelief like the electricians!

Kamran, did you NOT hook your stereo up to the new lines yet?!? I would and run the fans when I wasn't listening. I'm still a little kid I guess  :D

John, Transformers do really well at correcting and eliminating certain power issues. I still run a Pi Audio UberBUSS after my Torus AVR, I actually run one before it too. The Torus even without the conditioner before or after makes a good difference. It's an autoformer so it does a rough voltage correction, keeping voltage at 120 +/- 4v

AVR Status
Voltage In:      122V
Voltage Out:      120V
Current Out:      4.1A

I'm guessing end of Feb I'll make getting the new line a priority. I'm down to the final stretch of redoing my new home.

Kamran, looking forward to your impressions.

So glad that you enjoy the fruits of effort and cost. It really can be an upgrade that shouldn't be overlooked. How long did it take in hours to complete the electrical work? And what kind of conduits did you end up using?

Forgot to mention this: to err on the side of caution, I over estimated the length of the wire for the project. I have two equal lengths of cryo’d wire leftover at approx 13ft and change. If anyone is interested in securing this at cost, just PM me.

About to start the listening session for day two, to confirm that yesterday wasn’t a fever dream.

Quote:


Sorry for the delay 4krow, I’ve been pretty distracted for the last day or two.

The whole job took about 4 hours and we agreed to use white plastic wiremold to make the home run aesthetically pleasing.  The electrician also noticed an existing bad breaker in the panel and he replaced that for me without charging extra.

Kamran,
IMO, and based on my experience, to get the full benefit of the Puritan conditioner you will need to use something other than the Puritan Classic cables for the mains lead to the conditioner and from the conditioner to the amp and pre amp.

The Classic cables are excellent to components that do not draw a lot of power...DAC's, Streamers and the Classic worked very well to the OPPO 103D.

The "rave" reviews of the PSM 156 were with the Puritan Ultimate as the mains cable.  That is an entirely different beast from the Classic.

JOMAN,  I am still considering the Puritan conditioner, and wondered if the top of the line Decware power cable would suffice.  Did you consider that option or for one reason or another ruled it out?

I'll be taking delivery of the DHC3s then and installing them when I get back home in March.  Saves a lot on clearance fees and taxes this way.

Thanks for the information JOMAN; I forget that you are from the "north country" as your English is so good.  ;)

I'll head over to your earlier post for further review.  Still, what you added is helpful, as I had missed that there was a third power cable: the Classic+.

Safe travels.

So this post is 24 hours in the making.  Yesterday at 4 pm, I crossed the two week break-in period of the dedicated circuits recommended by Chris at VH Audio.  Fans out, packed, and shipped back to Amazon.

Speaking of Amazon, I had ordered a dirty electricity meter that measures EMI.  Not really sure how reliable it is but the results it gave me, were interesting…

The old daisy chained 14 gauge outlet that fed both the conditioner and Dennis Had amp, gave me a reading of 110 mVp-p at 122 VAC, whereas both the new dedicated circuits were approx 200 mVp-p at 120/121 VAC.  With the Audioquest PowerQuest 3 conditioner plugged in to the dedicated circuit, 4 of the non-high current outlets dropped that by 50% with a reading of about 100 mVp-p and change.

The results were not what I expected, especially how less noisy that old daisy chained outlet is. I measured some other outlets in the chain and they were over 200 mvp-p.  So not sure what to make if it. But it was an interesting exercise.  I also have no further use of the tool, so it went back as well.

That said, the above measurements don’t necessarily coincide with what I am hearing.  Literally every single aspect of the rig has changed for the better, even with the comparatively more noisier line.  I did make one adjustment and introduced the second Puritan Classic + cable to the DAC (first one is plugged in to my streamer) and connected both to the best measuring outlets on the conditioner.  Then I took my Cullen Power Cable (that was previously powering the DAC) and switched it with the stock cable on my Schiit Freya preamp.  I figured that now I know which outlets on the conditioner are performing the best, let’s have the source gear connected to them—especially the two Puritan Classic + Cables, which have reportedly good shielding and should further lower the noise floor.

And finally to the listening test:

One of the albums I always return to when I have burned in shit is Cowboy Junkies’ ‘Trinity Sessions’.  I intended to listen to it yesterday but figured I’d give it a day as I also introduced a new Puritan cable to the mix.  I just finished the album 10 minutes ago and trying to type this before I lose track of the differences I heard:

Soundstage: The reverb of the church was more present than before—quite apparent that this was recorded in a large space. There was also a better sense of depth.  On some tracks, either the drum kit is way back or at least mic’d in such a way that it appears to be 3 rows back, but still clearly audible.

Space: Better separation and air between instruments—allowing me to appreciate not only the whole ensemble but also the tonality of each instrument.

Details/Tonality: Ironically, ‘Sweet Jane’, which to me, has never really sounded stupendously good as ppl make it out to be, sounded the best today.  The drum kit was mic’d to the left of Margo, so closer up, and both the tonality and delicacy of the cymbal hits was markedly more crisp and lifelike.  Thought I was hearing a completely new song.

Vocals: Margo’s vocals were ever so more intoxicating and melancholy.  I think, for the first time, I could hear her breath work more clearly and even the faint noise of her pressing her lips together as she took a breath.  

I love Wikipedia’s description of how this album unfolds like a continuously unfolding song. Well, it has always sounded like a continuously unfolding song, but today I felt like I was in the church with them—part of their hour long jam session.  For lack of a better term, it got personal, and I loved every second of it.

Ok, perhaps a few more tracks before I pack it in for the big game…

Hi GroovySauce,

I had seen these advertised and wondered if they might be worth a try. As you have given the 'GS" seal of approval, I just placed an order for a pair.  Did you also purchase the meter?

Kamran,

 I have been following this thread for some time, watching to see how things turn out. In spite of my interest, two points stand out to me about the procedure(s) used. Mostly that two fans were employed to break in the circuits installed? Why not just use it with your audio system in the first place? Then, correct me if I am wrong about this. You bought these fans from Amazon for the expressed purpose of breaking in the new circuits, knowing that when this was complete that the fans would be sent back to Amazon for refund? Would that be in the same thinking as going to an audio brick and mortar store to browse audio gear that you might want, and then order on the internet at a lower price? If I am wrong about this LMK, otherwise, it didn't sit well with me.

This is becoming a thread for the ages.  So much interesting and useful information to play with.  

GroovySauce—the EMF meter I used to measure was actually from the same company, so that makes me feel better about reliability.  While I’m sure that the conditioner is doing it’s job by drooping the EMF by 50% and then the Classic + cable providing additional shielding, the idea of providing less EMF from the get go, is certainly appealing.  My termination boxes are right on top of each other to keep the two lengths straight so I wonder if these reducers will block on of the outlets.  Also, assuming they don’t act like act a strip, and shunt power—in other words, if one of the receptecles is being blocked, I can just plug the amp or the conditioner right in to it.  The price for two isn’t earth shattering so I might look in to this….

Tony—you’re spot on.  GroovySauce’s seal of approval speaks volumes (no pun intended)

Dominick: Thanks for your input—I’m beginning to evaluate EMF outside of just audio now.  And would love to hear from Will if he reads this.

4krow—good to hear from ya.  Let me address both your points and (hopefully) put you at ease:

1) The equipment was also plugged in during break-in and I was listening almost each day during this period. I would just disconnect the fans when doing so.

2) Speaking of fans, there was a short discussion on whether to keep them or not post break-in and I decided to return them.  Amazon gives me that out.  Not only was I under the return window, but also one of the reasons Amazon provides for returns is:

“No longer needed”.

Hence, I don’t see anything ethically wrong about returning it since Amazon itself is allowing the very thing.  They will indeed inspect and re-sell it as an open box item.

As far as your analogy goes about brick and border stores—respectfully, I’m not sure it is applicable, since most big box stores price match with online retailers like Amazon.  There have been a number of times (though much less of late since I primarily rely on Amazon vs. venturing out to a store) I’ve been to a store like Target or Best Buy and if I saw the same item on Amazon for cheaper, and showed it to them—they reduced their price on the spot and the retailer thus kept the business.  Furthermore, there are still a number of items we just continue to buy from retail stores (like clothes) without checking anywhere else.  They just get our business—period.

Synthetic oil--I have been using it about 15 years. I was convinced when I changed it on my motorcycle and internal engine noise--which you can hear clearly--was diminished by about 20%.

Thanks GroovySauce for the clarification.  Protecting myself and fam from EMF hasn’t been on top of my radar but based on the last few posts, I’m beginning to investigate it more seriously.

4krow and GroovySauce:  I’m really striving to be part of and to help add to a harmonious online culture, where everyone respects each other, learns from each other, gives each other space, understand different perspectives, and agree to disagree in a civil manner.  While I don’t claim to be perfect, I’ve been making a concerted effort to follow the adage, ‘you have to give respect to gain respect’ with a lot of success and have developed relationships in our audiophile community that have been and continue to be very rewarding.

I look forward to learning more and making more friends along the way  :)

Kamran,

I’m glad this post has morphed a bit towards EMF protection/reduction.  It’s a topic I’m passionate about as well.  Once you start going down the rabbit hole…there’s no looking back.  

Groovy….yes I’ve been satisfied with my Earthcalm products.  I also have their usb stick that is meant to pug into the back of a router.  I actually bring it to work and use it in my work vehicle which houses a PC with WiFi and 4G, laser and radar equipment.  So for me i feel it’s a necessity.  How do you like the Blueshield cube?  It’s been on my radar for some time now.  Will had suggested that if I go with the Blueshield product line, that it may be wise to disconnect my Earthcalm product because the technologies in the two companies could possibly clash with each other.  

When I redid my house I ran close to 25 home run lines of CAT 6 cabling to help reduce the amount of WiFi in my home.  That coupled with the EMF reducer, any remaining WiFi should hopefully be mostly cancelled out.  My sister is an electrical engineer, and some the topics they talked about when she was in college was really out there and interesting.  

For those with IOS devices….download the app “Magnetology”.   It will tell you how strong the earth’s geomagnetic field is pulling on a given day.  It can effect communications and overall health.  I initially learned about it when flying drones….they said on any given day….if the app is showing a level 4 or a 5, then they recommend not to fly because  you can run the risk of miscommunication with the drone and lose it.
When I showed my sister the app….she said they use it among other things at work be use it could affect the power grid since she works for the Con Edison utility company in NY.

So my point is that if you are concerned about the long term health of you and your family, then becoming more aware and looking into one of these EMF reducing devices should be considered.  

Dom