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Steve's TINY RADIAL project! (Read 123460 times)
Steve Deckert
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Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Reply #100 - 04/22/20 at 17:15:55
 

Yea, those drivers keep falling into my cart too.

Steve
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Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Reply #101 - 04/24/20 at 03:54:17
 

I am in the process of assembling a Sapele pair of Tiny Radials with a black finish... anxious to see how this looks.



I'm getting to a point where it seems to take about an hour to create the 8 panels.  It takes about an hour to do the glue up and clamp the panels.  It takes about an hour to sand and finish both assembled sets of panels.  It takes about an hour to create the top and bottom pieces, insert the corner pieces, and paint them black.  It then takes about an hour to do the final assembly and test the pair.

That's actually pretty damn good.  I doubt there are too many speakers you can make in 5 hours.  I am honing in on the ideal thickness for the panels, I like to start with 5/16 so that after the panels are assembled I can take it down to 1/4 inch on the jointer.  This takes the bow out of the panels from assembly (clamping) and eliminates sanding.

Tonight I also did a pair with a 3/16 radius on the corners that I really like...  And so far the African Sapele is my favorite wood for this speaker... so I am getting to that point where I think I know how they will have to be made and will be able to compute the costs.  All of these prototypes will be for sale at discounted prices when I am done.

Steve



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Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Reply #102 - 04/24/20 at 04:36:51
 
following your creation process of these with great curiosity Steve.  I have always thought "omni" speakers like the ERR... or these, would make phenomenal speakers for home theater.  But have never heard any used in this manner.  I have a friend who has some of the Mirage Omni's, but he uses them in his 2-ch music system only.

I like the idea of the radius on the cabinet corners too - like that a lot!
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Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Reply #103 - 04/24/20 at 05:09:18
 

OMG let me tell you a story about Radial Loudspeakers in a home theater application...

When I first set up a test bed for multi-channel audio and movies in our tiny studio on Spring street, I had every Decware speaker in there at one time or another, kind of on a rotation.  I ran a series of evaluations on each, the only variable being the speaker.  Very enlightening it was.

The electronics were all custom Decware tube gear, SET amplification was used on every channel and Push-Pull on the massive horn-loaded subs...

This was about the time DVDA (DVD Audio) came out.  It was 24 / 96 bit and 5 channels.  I had a test disk that was a simple electric bass that started in the center of the loudspeakers and then walked slowly in a perfect circle around the listener.  It went from the front center to the front right to the front rear to the left rear to the left front back to the center.

The interesting thing about this test disk was trying to understand how they recorded it.  On most speakers we tried I got about 8 positions beyond the center channel that created the circle.  It was cool.  But some speakers seemed to stretch that figure a little bit towards a higher number which was fascinating because then you start to believe maybe it was recorded with more than 8 or 9 positions in the circle...

So I remember the night well.  It was summer, I brought three pair of radial speakers to the studio and set them up.  2 were used for the front left and right channel.  Two were used in mono for the center but placed directly at the edge of the flat video screen and two were used for the rear channels.

I got all this set up and played that test DVDA with the bass guitar and was absolutely stunned to find that there were 24 places in the circle where the bass player paused, but other than the pause was in a continuous motion around the circle.  The resolution of this was so ridiculously clear it just made you shake your head and. laugh.  Clearly no better speaker for home theater imaging has ever been created.  

So if you compare these to the conventional box speaker with forward firing drivers, Radials are resolving around 7 more positions between the front right and rear right speakers!!!! The locations are as clear as a bell. If all speakers imaged like this being pushed over the top by zero feedback triodes, the industry would have NEVER dreamed of adding more speakers (7.1 and etc.).

The center channel is the best part. Rather than having a speaker point at you and be located below or above your screen, you point the radials at the screen, one on each side.  This way the sound washes the entire screen no mater the size (projection) reflecting back at you and the vocals sound like they are coming out of the mouth of the characters on the screen instead of the sky or from the characters shoes.  We often laughed at the "talking shoes" aspect of "home theater" with the center bar and little cubes that go around the room because it was clearly just toy home theater.  That would be fine but it was advertised as the opposite.

These tiny radials could replicate this in a small family room, say 14 x 16 or so, at a low volume.  Think late night movie.  Save explosive action flicks for your big speakers if you want to hear it loud, otherwise the Tiny Radials will reproduce it with the crazy imaging radials are known for.

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Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Reply #104 - 04/24/20 at 05:19:05
 

While I am thinking about 3D imaging with warm big sound in smaller spaces, I had speakers much like these over 20 years ago on my desktop that I made to get past a certain level in the game DECENT.



In this game, sound was everything because you had to hear things coming up from behind you to turn the right way and defend yourself.  I played that game on regular desktop bookshelf speakers and kept getting killed at one particular doorway because something I was hearing in front of me was actually behind me.

When you see the choppy graphics that was chosen over lag.  The movement was real life fast.  As fast as you could move and the sound was perfectly sinked with it.  I suppose it was made for headphones but that completely failed to solve the problem on this particular level...

After building a pair of purpose built speakers for the project which were desktop planar panel speakers, not even radials, I was able to hear that the enemy was coming from behind and below through a passageway hidden by a fake rock doorway...  without the speakers the only way to get past this level was by pure chance and luck.

Basically these Tiny Radials are designed and excel as desktop speakers on either side of your keyboard.  Expansive deep and wide soundstage, completely real sounding without having to go into the listening room!!!  Probably would have shaved weeks off this game as I member it.

Steve

P.S.  Haha I just realized this is a DOS game - predates windows.  ahh the good old days when everything worked...


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Reply #105 - 04/24/20 at 20:59:50
 
...Steve have you decided on which binding post you will be using...I remember you had a pair of low profile ones in Reply #80 that you thought about but you also had a pair on your own Burled Walnut pair that you really liked Reply #88-#89
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Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Reply #106 - 04/26/20 at 19:41:40
 
Steve, I remember playing that game a long time ago!

So how do you think these little guys would sound mounted on the ceiling? Driver facing downward for surround sound speakers?

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Reply #107 - 04/28/20 at 02:48:53
 

Not very good, as they just wouldn't be loud enough in most cases unless you mean mounted on the ceiling close to your head in which case yes, works great. The trick with these is near field listening. For example, say you listen on a couch placed into the room and you had a small table behind the couch for nicknacks... you could put a pair there and it would sound exactly like a real pair farther away in the back of the room.  

Of course that's with a reference level of 2 watts. More power will get louder, but then the speakers should be ideally crossed-over at 80Hz.  With a high pass crossover set at 80Hz you should be able to do 30 watts or so without issues.  

The beauty of this speaker is that it works in ultra-small tight places and makes those places sound like a spacious room.  To fill a normal to larger size space, like the Decware Listening room they have to be cranked with the full 2 watts and achieve only what would be considered a fairly low listening level at normal 10 foot distances.

Steve



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Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Reply #108 - 04/28/20 at 02:53:02
 

Here's what the radiuses corners on the cabinets look like.  I am making bottom plinths with a matching radius for this variation.





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Reply #109 - 04/28/20 at 04:34:16
 
Wow, Steve, getting better all the time.

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Reply #110 - 04/28/20 at 14:11:56
 
Thanks for the reply Steve, my room is about the size of you room so no go.

I do like the rounded corners also. Is that Hickory I see in that picture?
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Reply #111 - 04/28/20 at 20:23:39
 

It's a piece of Cherry I had with some sapwood in it.  The other ones are Sapele.

Steve
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Reply #112 - 05/01/20 at 05:26:36
 

So naturally I started to wonder... hmmm.  Wouldn't it be cool if they still had the same game, but with todays graphics... imagine playing it again 20 years later with real images!

Low and behold, it still exists, and it is exactly the same but with todays graphics.  



So naturally I gathered up a pair of Tiny Radials and enjoyed a good ass kicking fest that lasted about an hour.  Fun stuff!  Hehe, I fantasized about this 20 years ago when I first played the game with the low res graphics.  It made it super fast, which was essential to staying alive.  Still I always thought about how great it would be to have high res graphics AND speed.  Well, it was great... and with sound to match!

Steve

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Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Reply #113 - 05/01/20 at 05:50:38
 

Quote:
...Steve have you decided on which binding post you will be using...I remember you had a pair of low profile ones in Reply #80 that you thought about but you also had a pair on your own Burled Walnut pair that you really liked Reply #88-#89


Actually I have been stalling this thread a bit waiting for the ones I ordered to get here. Still no sign of them. Meanwhile I have been putting the prototypes together with whatever I have laying around...

Steve



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Reply #114 - 05/05/20 at 03:11:32
 

Guess I'll never see them, so I ordered something similar from Parts Express.  Those I should see in 2 weeks with any luck.  The good news is that I've tried enough different kinds and had enough time to think about it, and the ones I ordered from Parts Express I think will be the ones to beat.

Steve

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Reply #115 - 05/05/20 at 03:21:17
 



We're going to need a good size comparison...
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Reply #116 - 05/05/20 at 03:25:20
 


Walnut crotch wood high gloss prototypes.
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Reply #117 - 05/05/20 at 03:36:06
 


Zebra wood hand-oiled prototypes.


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Reply #118 - 05/05/20 at 03:46:43
 


African paduke hand-oiled prototypes.


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Reply #119 - 05/05/20 at 03:47:41
 


Black sapele prototypes.


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Reply #120 - 05/05/20 at 03:48:21
 


Antique cherry prototypes.


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Reply #121 - 05/05/20 at 04:30:34
 
Dibs on the walnut crotch wood!
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Reply #122 - 05/05/20 at 05:00:09
 

Jeff,

You can have the 16mB high res PDF poster... I plan on keeping these until I make an even better pair... might be awhile... but fair enough, if I succeed and if you still want these, you'll have first dibs on them.

Steve

Here is the PDF file:  http://www.decware.com/newsite/images/Desktopomni.pdf

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Reply #123 - 05/05/20 at 05:11:41
 
😂 Fair enough! They are stunning enough to hold out and hope.

For now, I will print out the radial poster and replace the Farrah Fawcett on my wall.
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Reply #124 - 05/05/20 at 07:58:38
 
Jeff/Steve,

With you on the walnut crotch wood. Those are stunning!

Randy
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Reply #125 - 05/08/20 at 21:38:39
 
The new Forstner bit arrived.  Which is good because my earlier attempts to core the `3/4" bodies was a colossal failure. SO with what was left of the bodies I confirmed that it will hold the drivers.  Now I just need to start over.  I also want to find my interlocking bit for my router to improve assembly accuracy and ease.
3/4" you ask?  When everything you have is a hammer...it all looks like a nail.  3/4" is what I have stocked in the garage so that was what I prototyped with.
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Reply #126 - 05/09/20 at 10:37:42
 
Rich,

I have this amounst the hammers and nails.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B011F2U8R6/ref=cm_sw_r_em_apa_i_OENTEb76T2XC7

Check out some YouTube videos on how it can make quick work of wood shaping.

John
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Reply #127 - 05/10/20 at 23:56:11
 
Well, after more experiments and finally getting a jig to work the way I wanted, I had 2 "cabinets" that were good enough to drop the drivers into and find out what all the fuss was about.

Steve. Damn.  I don't even have the tops on these guys (I was a little excited to make sure this was  legit) and I am absolutely FLOORED.  Please ignore the lack of finish, hot glue to hold the drivers in place, and missing the top section.  Wow.  


These things are going to breed like Tribbles from Star Trek.  I'm seeing them appear in every room in my house.
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Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Reply #128 - 05/11/20 at 16:33:32
 

Quote:
These things are going to breed like Tribbles from Star Trek


That is what's been happening here at the mothership...  enclosures everywhere as I continue to fine-tune the process!  I should see binding posts in this week so I hope to put a few more pair together.

When this project started, I would have had to get $500.00 for a pair just to make wages.  But I have been continually practicing and have used this as an excuse to buy a few more tools so I am well on my way to a personal goal of half that amount.  

I suspect you'll see these for sale on the web site by July with any luck.

Steve
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Reply #129 - 05/11/20 at 20:58:50
 
What about changing the bottom of the enclosure to have notches eliminate the need to create he base and internal posts?

you would then have the hard surface on which you place the speakers become the bottom of the "enclosure".  So the bottom of the panels looks like an H.  That would eliminate the need to create the base, some of the glue-ups and finishing.


of course that makes your existing jigs  obsolete. you now have to make taller panels. but that is what prototyping is all about.
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Reply #130 - 05/12/20 at 02:11:18
 

The binding posts I picked out have finally arrived!




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Reply #131 - 05/12/20 at 02:11:57
 
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Reply #132 - 05/12/20 at 02:25:12
 

I am still learning things...  

A) Holding the different woods in your hand and rotating the cabinet as you look it over is far better than a static photograph.  I am trying to figure out how to handle that.  I have ordered a rotating platform and plan to see if a 30 second video wouldn't be the answer.  Otherwise, it would take a lot of pictures.

B) These will never be offered in Wenge.  Tried to pattern cut eight 1/4" thick Wenge panels four different ways and with three different bits and after destroying the first five panels I decided to save face and just threw the remaining three in the trash before I wrecked them.

Steve




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Reply #133 - 05/12/20 at 04:20:48
 
Those binding posts measure up to the quality of the rest of your efforts. Congrats!!
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Reply #134 - 05/12/20 at 12:05:28
 
Great choice on the binding posts Steve. Good luck with these tiny dancers.

HK
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Reply #135 - 05/12/20 at 17:00:04
 
Those are what Zygi used on my HR1s.  Very nice posts.
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Reply #136 - 05/12/20 at 22:03:46
 
....I like them ...classy looking ...the brushed look compliments the style of the wood cube ...you have a good eye Steve ...I’m interested in a Walnut pair when the time comes.

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Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Reply #137 - 05/12/20 at 22:11:54
 
They're intriguing speakers for sure, and I like these binding posts. I'd go for a pair if I didn't already use HR-1s with my TV, and I don't have a desk PC etc. to use them with.
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Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Reply #138 - 05/12/20 at 23:19:46
 
I think that these speakers would lend themselves to a little bluetooth amp.

The little Parts Express 50 watt boards would work well with them.

I know, heresy, but still I think it would be good for around the house, kitchen type music.
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Reply #139 - 05/13/20 at 01:59:12
 

We put a bluetooth receiver board in my wife's Zen amp that she uses for her kitchen system.  I tested it with hi-res streams and it works well.

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Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Reply #140 - 05/13/20 at 02:28:36
 
 
Arm chair speakers, for the guy who doesn't have a decent room to set up large speakers... kicked back with a pair on the arms of an appropriate chair like this, a person would hear scary good 3D sound stage that fairly well mimics an actual full size pair of radials in a well done listening room to you, but to everyone else in the house, be no louder than a TV set.



I think this exercise would educate a lot of people on 3D imaging and at the same time make one realize how much effect a room actually has on full size speakers.
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Reply #141 - 05/13/20 at 02:42:00
 
Well Donnie you'll be happy to know there will be kits available too.  One will be partially assembled and one will not be.

Steve
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Reply #142 - 05/14/20 at 12:02:38
 
Very cool arm chair implementation Cool
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Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Reply #143 - 05/16/20 at 05:30:42
 

Despite the lack of pictures, things are progressing nicely.  I found out my neighbor across the street is a bit of a 3D printing / CAD guru!  So,  after a long conversation he is going to create the CAD for his machine and 3D print a Tiny Radial.  Now, don't get excited, because the cost of this may actually be unattractive but the only way to know is to actually make a pair and see.

To offset the reduction in mass, I will likely install a weight in the plinth. The walls of the enclosure will be a hollow honeycomb that will likely be super stiff and it might actually be pretty dead.  We will see.

This weekend I spent most of it making swings for the grandchildren. And despite being only 50 feet away from my wood shop, I have built the whole thing without electricity. Just a simple pull saw and lots of 4x6 timber. The experience has given me a new appreciation for the Japanese carpenters and the pull saw in general. In fact since I built my new shop, the only hand saws I own are pull saws. Using them for just right at a year, I know for a fact I will never own an English push saw like all the ones I grew up with. I have an extension cord, and a shop 50 feet away. I have a skill saw, saws awl, jig saw, and miter saws, and believe it or not is is actually faster and easier to just hand cut these 4x posts with a pull saw so that's what I've been doing.

I have built the swings straight away in front of the woodshop doors so I can enjoy watching and listening to the grandkids playing on it while I putz around out there.  Doesn't get any better than that!

Also thanks to the neighbor girl, who is probably about 8 years old.  She is a tom-boy / daredevil who I have personally witnessed doing faceplates in the gravel driveway on her bike no less than 100 times over the past 4 years.  She tested the swing set in ways that I wouldn't have thought feasible, which resulted in some structural upgrades.

At the same time during my breaks, I have been working on making some Tiny Radial Kits. I have a feeling that kits might be popular since you can sand and finish it yourself, not to mention have the satisfaction of putting it together with your own creative juices!


Have a great weekend!


Steve



 
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Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Reply #144 - 05/16/20 at 14:11:08
 
Steve,
I've experimented with 3D printing quite a bit.
We have several big industrial machines at work and one of my CAD Monkeys has one at home.

I think that the honeycomb version will be overly resonant, there isn't enough mass there to damp itself. At least that has been my experience.

Here is a pair of speakers that my CAD Monkey made a couple of weeks ago. Please notice your influence on his design.




(Looking at his photo, it isn't hard to tell that he is 27 and single)

They are made from Mylar tube with water jetted aluminum ends and 3D printed dispersion cones. He is using a 4" Dayton Audio driver on top with a matching passive radiator on the bottom.

Here is his printer in action.




He did a hell of a good job with the entire package. He used a little Parts Express Bluetooth amp running off of his drill battery, so he made a enclosure out of a little carrying case and then made up a little transport wheelie deal to bring them into work. (He has been working from home, 2 weeks at home and then one week at work, it looks like he has a bit of time on his hands).



I think that he did a great job.

As a aside, it is interesting on how enthused I can get these young guys in stereos and such. They haven't been exposed to anything like it before.

Hanging out with me is a lesson in applying their engineering skills into something that they can enjoy.
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Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Reply #145 - 05/18/20 at 11:21:55
 
I am thinking of using the tiny radials as rear speakers for HT use in the Chariot. When the rear corner bass traps are installed there will be a need to replace the current rears with a side wall version. Tiny radials with the recommended 80hz filter on pedestals or a shelf set just to the rear and above the seated area with Death Boxes filling in the lows is my thought. My question is how far from the wall will the TR's have to be?
I truly appreciate a box full of carpenter hand tools and own such. It just does not make sense to pull out a heavy awkward power tool, set it up, plug it in, and put on PPE for a few cuts! I am certain you had a great day puttzen in the yard listening to the birds and children while feeling the warmth of spring air and smelling the fresh cut wood.
I almost was going to say that the American version of the pull saw, gasoline chain saw, would have made quick work of the task but would have degraded the senses.
Cheers!
John
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Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Reply #146 - 05/19/20 at 05:14:33
 
Grin. Those are killer!  Nice amount of mass too!
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Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Reply #147 - 05/19/20 at 05:27:07
 

Today I received a small turntable that I can set the radial on.  It will spin the unit slowly so I can take a short 30 second video of it and cover the same ground as dozens of images.

Here is a test run.






click on the image above to see the video

Steve

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Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Reply #148 - 05/19/20 at 12:39:17
 
I'll bet the Walnut Crotch will look awesome on the table.

Speaking of different versions of pull saws, here is a short video of a project that was turned into a temporary playground for the grandkids.

https://youtu.be/v-t01FNmmKE

John
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Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Reply #149 - 05/21/20 at 05:11:43
 
Nice!  They can't get that experience from a cell phone app!

Steve
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