Forums
https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl
AUDIO FORUMS >> General Discussion and Support >> Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1582567152

Message started by Steve Deckert on 02/24/20 at 17:59:11

Title: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 02/24/20 at 17:59:11

NOTE: The result of this project - Tiny Radials - can be found for sale on this page here:  https://www.decwaretinyradials.com






I was browsing through the latest speaker supplier catalogs and noticed a 2 inch driver made by Tangband that caught my eye! It had it's own enclosure and passive radiator giving it response to 80Hz! I visualized it in a miniaturized Decware Radial loudspeaker where the cavity below the radiator gets tuned by a plinth creating even more gain and extension in the bass.

If I am right a couple things will happen... A) the speaker will sound like our big speakers with a similar frequency response, just not as low. B) the smaller diameter cone negates the need for a tweeter and changes how the lenses work, so this old design from years ago that never left my desk now finally lives -- shrunken down to a desktop sized speaker.

Here is a video of the prototypes - aka - proof of concept pair.



https://decware.wistia.com/medias/x4d46vqe8s

Steve

Title: Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Post by Showme on 02/24/20 at 18:29:53

Those really are amazing. Makes me want to retire my Traps that I use at our cabin.

Title: Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Post by Steve Deckert on 02/24/20 at 18:50:33

As part of the research, I will need to know two things:

A) did you use headphones when you watched the video?

B) what would you be willing to pay for a pair?

INFO about them:

They are solid hardwood cabinets with the passive radiator firing into a pre-tuned bass plinth just like our full size models.  The driver is a Tang Band T2-2136SA.  I developed the lens for the top.

They are not, plastic.  Response in these cabinets was estimated to be 76Hz ~ 20kHz, however if you listen to the video, it is easy to hear it go well below that bass figure.  I will measure them soon enough.

Because these are full-range crossoverless radials, the sound stage is about 6 feet wide with the speakers placed as shown in the videos. That means they are also very useful as regular speakers set near the wall in any room or office.  For example, on a kitchen counter, on a book shelf, or even in the center of a large dining room table and of course on the desktop.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Post by ZENTISH on 02/24/20 at 18:57:47

How about 5-9.1 home theater!

Title: Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Post by Archie on 02/24/20 at 19:06:45

I used my Denon AH-D2000 headphones plugged into my computer tower which has nothing special as far as audio.  I honestly wasn't impressed.  Just to check, I went over and listened to the Big Betsy video on the banner page.  This was 1000 Xs more impressive.

Maybe my standard is too high.

Title: Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Post by Lon on 02/24/20 at 19:36:26

They sure look nice. Music doesn't do much for me but the sound is intriguing.

Title: Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Post by Geno on 02/24/20 at 21:29:14

Big sound out of such small speakers. Pretty amazing!

Title: Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Post by JBbuzz on 02/25/20 at 11:38:24

Listened with Beats. Amazing sound out of the visual footprint! Not familiar with the music so I will reserve comment on impressions.

Solid block of sawn wood?  If so, bore or custom taper inside?

Voodoo Ranger looks good also!

Cheers!

John

Title: Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Post by Archie on 02/25/20 at 16:11:57

I'd guess they are like the top part of the HR1s.  Those are a hollow taper.  Also, I assume there is a passive bass in the bottom -- again, like the HR1s.

Title: Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Post by Dana on 02/25/20 at 18:47:14

How would they compare to the Amazon Echo Studio?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0849HZ86Y/ref=s9_acsd_al_bw_c2_x_3_t?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=merchandised-search-5&pf_rd_r=N6XXFRZ3AHT9XPSGJ868&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=9195498b-605e-43c7-a8a3-416b36843b61&pf_rd_i=9818047011&th=1

They are $400 for the pair and are powered (and smart :))


Title: Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Post by JBbuzz on 02/25/20 at 20:12:59

Oh! You would need to add the $129 Echo Sub Woofer for a fair comparison.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=echo+subwoofer&i=amazon-devices&crid=214UT6CU5JJIR&sprefix=echo+sub%2Camazon-devices%2C153&ref=nb_sb_ss_i_4_8

Dana, Do you mean a smart aggravating pain in the arse?

Title: Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Post by ScottNC on 02/25/20 at 21:12:18

I played the video from my iPad Pro directly (well, with plug adapter) in my Sennheiser 660s, the sound is impressive for sure. I have to agree with a few of the above comments on the tracks, I’d be more inclined to make a more decisive opinion hearing them play tracks I heard many many times, D Fagen, Dire Straights, Dianna K, Steely Dan, ya know... that stuff. That said it’s hard not to be impressed when you put the headphones on. They’re pretty cool little speakers.
Best,
Scott

Title: Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Post by Steve Deckert on 02/26/20 at 00:52:44


What I like about these is that they are worthy of a Zen Triode amplifier with a real source.  And using both I get almost the same sound as I get from my main system just a smaller version of it.  That is the appeal.  I can now take the sound from my listening room and recreate it on my desk or a counter top next to me while I work.  In fact that is what is so fascinating about the sound, because I spend a fair amount of time listening to the speakers in the listening room from the adjoining room where I work all day.  I am pretty used to the sound that comes through that doorway and have always enjoyed it almost as much as when I am in the room setting down for a serious listen.  Setting next to this doorway are now these tiny radial speakers and due to the frequency balance and imaging, I have forgotten several times that I wasn't listening to big speakers in the other room because the sound is so close to the same.

If you're going to try to make comparisons with solid-state, bluetooth, DSP laden plastic desktop speakers you will find it is an apples to oranges comparison that can't be resolved.  It does however bring up a reality that if these were ever sold, many people would be running small solid state amps with them either to save money or to save space.

Steve


Title: Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Post by Palomino on 02/26/20 at 19:52:10

Interesting driver.  Built in passive radiator.  

Title: Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Post by JBbuzz on 02/27/20 at 08:04:57

Yeah, at 80 db efficiency the little Zen drives them good. This may change my course a tad.

Title: Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Post by Steve Deckert on 02/27/20 at 16:00:08


The tracks were electronic music mostly because I was breaking-in the speakers... I had no intention on making videos during the process.  I was just so amazed hearing them for the first time, that I kept taking videos with my phone.

Don't worry, before too long, I'll have some time to make some real videos with a real recorder and some better music... this was just to get your attention.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Post by JBbuzz on 02/27/20 at 16:19:31

Well you did get my attention! I envision tieing  2 TBs in series facing each other and loading the rears with tapered enclosures. Center channel Bowtie   ;D

John

Title: Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Post by Dominick on 02/27/20 at 18:15:45

Steve....what a great sound from such a small footprint.  Impressive for sure.  I have never heard the Trapeziums....but something’s tellng me that these mini radials will put the Trapeziums into early retirement.  

Steve....what kind of wood are you using for these speakers.... is that Walnut or Birch?

Dom

Title: Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Post by Tommy Freefall on 02/27/20 at 18:21:22

This little speaker looks & sounds great!
Can't wait to find out what the real world bass they put out.

Title: Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/01/20 at 23:31:56


The traps are nearly 10dB (twice as loud) louder than the Tiny Radials with the first watt, so they should be pretty safe.

The wood... well the pair I made was done in Sapele.   The inexpensive approach would be to 3D print it.   I'm going to make another pair from Paduke next time I need a project and see if I can get a feel for what they might actually cost.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve/Decware & Company.....Developments?
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/01/20 at 23:40:35


In the first demo there was a rear wall about 12 inches away but no side walls. The bass was very good. In this demo, they are placed about 4 feet apart in a doorway, so less loading and still the bass was not too bad.



https://decware.wistia.com/medias/oi8rq2t1wf

In this video, I used the Tascam 24 bit recorder and just for fun played the same Orchestra track that I am using in all of the speaker demos. The recorder is placed directly in front of the turntable where I was standing to listen.

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/23/20 at 01:50:09


So after living with these out in the shop for a couple weeks, my wife confiscated them so I had to build another pair.  That's OK because the sound of these is so good that the question of how much would they cost has to be answered.  It can't be answered until many things happen.  First we have to figure out how long it will take to build a pair, and before we can do that we have to figure out how we're going to build them.  To do that we have to start building several of them and refine the process until we can settle on a final design and then create jigs.  Only after that and we use the jigs and make several pair can I  know what they would cost.

So with this, Steve's TINY RADIAL project begins and I'll use this thread like I did "Steve's BIG BETSY project" as a development diary of the project.


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/23/20 at 02:15:18


Unlike my BIG BETSY project, I didn't know this was going to turn into a project so I didn't take any pictures of the initial build. My intension was to just take a block of solid hardwood, and bore a hole though it big enough to accommodate the driver.

IDEA #1 - I couldn't find a bit large enough that was also long enough to get at least half way through the nearly 7 inch block. The only bit I could find was on eBay and it turned out to be junk so I had to scrap the idea.

IDEA #2 - I decided to rip the block in half, use the bandsaw to carve out the inside and then glue the two halves back together again. From there I could taper the sides of the block on my mitre saw, which I did.

Here is how that turned out...



I'm just getting ready to glue the bottom on in this particular photo.  What you didn't see is that the diameter of the driver is within 3/16 inch of the outside of the top which means a lot more cutting was required to fit the driver. Nevertheless it was a great success of your are only building one pair but a complete fail if you want to be in a position where you could possibly have to build lots of them. Clearly the wall thickness has to come down, and if that is the case then it becomes easier to create panels and glue them together.

Time to focus on how to build panels...

Steve








Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/23/20 at 02:23:50


I decided to create a pattern and use the router to create the shape of the panels. It would be a two step process. First use a flush trim bit to cut the pattern and then use part of a lock mitre bit set to create the 45 degree miter.

I decided to use Paduke for this experiment.



As you can see there is a step that can be created by the lock mitre bit which I choose to use because once the panels are made thinner we will need more meat in the corners to accept the driver mounting screws and I intend to put a wood rail in each corner to lock the joint.  It will also make assembly easy and self squaring.

Steve





Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/23/20 at 02:29:30


Here is a picture of the rails getting installed during the glue up.  



Once all four are installed and cut 1/8 inch longer than the enclosure, they will be able to hold the bottom plinth, which can be screwed into place... so we're making progress. I'll keep posting as things move along.

Steve






Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Jeff of Arabica on 03/23/20 at 04:12:12

Ok, after listening to both videos with my Ultrasone Signature Pro's, I can get a sense of how these sound/perform.  I could see this concept being useful on a desk or kitchen.  

As far as price, hard to guesstimate not knowing how much labor hours will ultimately be involved, but considering the drivers alone are $65, I would say $300-$400 depending on the wood selection.  


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Doug on 03/23/20 at 04:40:15

Through my HiFiMan HE 400S planars and current generation ipad, the sound reminds me of the LS3/5A’s that I ran in my main (well, actually, my only) all tube system during a 6 to 8 year period in the late ‘80’s and early ‘90’s......nice, but light weight.  My wife and I, like you, use the through-the-door method for listening to our music systems in the next room over.  I’m a dedicated big speaker guy for lots of reasons, and this is throwing me for a loop, but these are definitely intriguing little speakers!

Willing to pay?  Not sure.......maybe $125 - $150, if, and that’s a big if, I could find a place for them to be used.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Archie on 03/23/20 at 15:41:45

In my woodworking world, you guys are way low on the price.   :P

Handmade and well finished - plus the electronic parts.  I wouldn't be surprised to see a grand.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Jeff of Arabica on 03/23/20 at 15:50:42

Yeah, I figured so much Archie.  But I think Steve's question was more about what we as individuals would be willing to pay and less about what they are worth from a parts/labor perspective.  I have no clue what their value is, but for me, and my intended use of these speakers, $400 would be my limit.  

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Showme on 03/23/20 at 16:45:14

Archie and Jeff, I think you're both right. Perceived value is important in all products so in my opinion that has to be taken into consideration.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Rivieraranch on 03/23/20 at 19:52:33

(in babytalk) "widdle HR-1's!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Jeff of Arabica on 03/23/20 at 19:58:27

And in all fairness to the "widdle itty bitty" Radials, until I hear them in the flesh, I really can't say how much I would be willing to pay.  It could be that they blow me away for their size and $1000 is a price I can justify.  

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Showme on 03/23/20 at 20:04:50

Steve should ask DeVon what a fair price would be.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Archie on 03/23/20 at 20:09:52

Oh, if it's what I'd be willing to pay, that's a whole nother thing.  I'm not in the market for something like those so IDK.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/24/20 at 05:05:01


Here is the second pair going together.  The sticks inside lock the sides square so assembly is easy with no clamps, just some masking tape.  Thinking of the D.I.Y.  If there is one thing I've learned from the BIG BETSY project, it is that there will be a strong interest in plans and something that can be easily assembled.  This method will also allow me to make the panels as thin as I want.  I plan to experiment with that as we progress.



As you can see I got so wrapped up in the panel design and the locking sticks that I completely forgot I needed to make it thinner, so I will look forward to a lot of carving on this pair to get the driver to fit... just like the last pair.

Steve




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/24/20 at 05:14:38


Similarly to the issue with the ZF15L and ZF15M, until they are seen in person, people think they are just a board and can't understand why they "cost so much". With these Tiny Radials because they are tiny people will naturally think the price should be tiny as well.

I won't know what the cost would be for some time yet, but I do know they need to be priced as low as humanly possible or no-one will buy them. They will buy plans though...  which is why I have no problem making several pair to fine tune the design. Besides, it's kinda fun to see if you can take a 5 or 6 hour project and refine the process down to an hour, which is my goal. I don't expect to hit it, but you have to aim high to shoot far.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/25/20 at 04:15:20


Here is another shot during assembly.  Have to put the bottom on after wiring the binding posts ; )




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/25/20 at 04:18:31


On this pair I decided to try these style binding posts, but they will only work with banana jacks.  I have already found it hard to find small flexible speaker cable that is short and easily hidden on counter tops, whereas if we could just use regular wire in those instances, cut to length, it would make for a cleaner install.  




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/25/20 at 04:20:44


Here is a couple close-up shots of the top.









Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/25/20 at 04:27:20


So today I decided to have some fun, and place them in the listening room in front of the regular speakers, hook them up, and play them all day to see if anyone notices.



No one did. They just sound like the big speakers are playing in there, except they are turned down low. Out in the rest of the shop the sound is pretty much the same, to where I can be certain the only way anyone working here will notice is if they happen to actually walk in there.




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Jeff of Arabica on 03/25/20 at 04:32:05

Ha!!  Fun experiment  :)

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/25/20 at 04:33:52




These little speakers bring some real fun into things!  Any time something small does something big it brings a smile to your face... anyone who owns our 2 watt amplifiers already knows this... and this is kind of that same feeling.  You can amuse yourself endlessly with these things, or use them for serious listening at the desktop.

So this pair came out nice.  Next I'm going to see how thin I can make the panels before things just get too difficult to assemble.  I'm just curious what that threshold is.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Jeff of Arabica on 03/25/20 at 04:39:08

Willing to sell any of these prototype samples?  I love Padauk 😬

They would pair perfectly with my Taboo MKIII...

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/25/20 at 04:58:00


I realized today that they would also work great setting on a TV stand in front of a flat screen TV (do we still have to write flat screen?) and have audiophile sound with insane imaging at modest volumes. Ideal for spaces where you don't want to go all out with floor standing speakers.  Plus they would wash the screen with sound so that during movies or television it would always sound like the sound was coming out of the screen.  Floor standing speakers could not do that nor can a center channel, at least not with believable dimensionality like this. There is a possibility that these speakers might scale to the screen size better than anything else you could try because of their small size and full-out omni design.  I'll have to try that!

Steve




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by lazb on 03/25/20 at 17:46:58

I can see these working extremely well in a small apartment setting! Make a TV soundbar moot.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Lonely Raven on 03/25/20 at 18:38:42

Looks like a fun project - something maybe to do with purchased plans?


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Tommy Freefall on 03/25/20 at 19:34:40

I think these may be the cutest things I've ever seen.
They're not a need, but I would love to have a pair to play with.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Dominick on 03/26/20 at 00:10:26

I have to say that these Mini Radials are truly a work of art.   I could totally see them flanking both side of my TV.  I terms of price...I would guess they need to be in a similar price point of the Trapeziums and north of that figure.  Kudos to the Zen Master!!

Dominick

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Vooraphile on 03/27/20 at 08:52:25

Hmm... Simple.. Small.. And loud.. And a lot of skilled work on the box..
If I build this with piece of woods, I would ask for 380/pair..
Or mass build it with plastic mould boxes, I could go with 90/pair..

I suggest Steve to stay with Decware's original works.. which is 380/pair..
Or 15.90 for the layout..

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/30/20 at 03:44:36


After carving out the inside of the thicker enclosures a couple times to get the tapered driver to fit I was anxious to see if it was possible to build one without any carving.  This would mean the sides would have be reduced to 3/16".  

I made a pair from scraps of the antique cherry that was left over from the Big Betsy project.  After making the other ones so thick a car could probably back over them, this pair compelled me to add a brace at the bottom.  



At the same time I made a pair from Sapele that were right at 1/4 inch which seemed like a nice compromise.



Shown above is the top.  (Camera lens distortion on my phone makes it impossible to see the taper of the cabinet much of the time) The Sapele pair only requires a light touch with a spindle sander.  This was the pair that felt really right when I was making them so I have decided to make them the actual model for the blueprint.  

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/30/20 at 03:59:00


So here is another shot of the finished enclosure design.  I have also been working on the variations for the top lens and the bottom plinth.





Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/30/20 at 04:16:08


For the bottom plinth, I learned it can't be made from soft woods like pine because it warps too easily.  This piece has to be perfectly flat and stay that way.  I tried 1/2 inch plywood which worked but it wasn't very heavy and looked too thick.  I tried 1/4 hardwood and learned that too can warp.  So right now the best look both visually and structurally is a hardwood block made from two pieces and then sliced like bread to 3/8 inch so the grain is vertical in the plinth rather than horizontal.




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/30/20 at 04:19:47


You can see some of them laying on the bench with the enclosures.  The fancy ones are made from walnut crotch wood which I will take more pictures of when I do the final assembly.






Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/30/20 at 04:29:36


Tonight I did a logo for the front.



As soon as get the binding posts I ordered I plan to put more of these together.

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Rich Evans on 04/01/20 at 02:21:00

These look like a great compliment to the TV.  You don't have to negotiate the living room decor with your spouse with these, but still have something you are willling to listen to while staring at the TV.

And you can still use them to actually enjoy music while using them.  This is a much better solution that a generic soundbar under the TV.

I do spend a fair amount of time in my study (working from home) and these would pair with my Zen amp rather nicely. I would still get to enjoy the details and complexity of my music without taking over the room (I've packed it with bookcases already).

Have you tried using them as speakers for gaming?  Another possible market to open would be for computer gamers if they image well enough to catch the "bad guy" sneaking up on them.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/01/20 at 03:28:04




Plans have been finalized and will be available as soon as I create a place on the site to purchase them. I will post that link in this thread when it becomes available.

Just getting ahead of the curve here a little bit. Since I don't know the final price and or if there would even be a market for these I am just proceeding as if I did. What I do know, is that there's a market for the plans, so now they are done.



Here is a Buy it Now link for the Tiny Radial plans $19.95 instant download.

https://secure.ultracart.com/cgi-bin/UCEditor?merchantId=DIY&ADD=TRPLANS&themeCode=CAR

The plans are a high resolution .pdf of the picture shown above.

-Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Rivieraranch on 04/01/20 at 13:25:57

Makes me think of "Tiny Elvis", a bit on Saturday Night Live some years ago.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by JBzen on 04/01/20 at 13:31:27

Funny, I just started to disassemble my implementation of the Tang Band T2-2136SA to finish as a center channel for the Charoit and took a break to look at this thread.

Nice progress on the design. Looks like the Tiny Radial will be added to my ever growing todo list for a set of computer monitors. Looks good Steve!

John

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Wavendon on 04/01/20 at 19:44:09

Please help me out here as I am new to Decware and tubes; what kind of system would you suggest I assemble if I were to use these Tiny Radials in my home office or bonus room? Specifically which one of Steve amplifiers? DAC, streamer? CD player? Are there other necessities or nice-to-haves?

thank you!

~Andy~
Raleigh NC

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/01/20 at 20:13:04


Welcome to the family!

If you hi-pass these speakers at 80Hz, they could probably get reasonably loud in a small room, So far I have been running them full-range with our 2 watt amplifiers and find the pairing ideal for low volume listening.  I honestly don't think the speaker would handle much more than that without getting distorted.  

These speakers are great for desktop in-your-face listening with just a couple watts at which point they will get plenty loud, or for relatively low level background music in an office, kitchen, living room, bedroom, etc. with the same power.  If you wanted to push them, you would need an 80Hz hi-pass crossover and more power.

As for DAC, Streamer, CD player, and so on, I would recommend a dedicated streamer/usb DAC combo like the Cambridge Audio CXN series.  That way you have it all covered.  If you want to play CD's you can get their CD player, or use one you already have as a transport feeding the streamer/dac.

Nice to haves is a ZBIT so that you can run the balanced outputs from the streamer/dac  into the amplifier.  I have tested this combination and found balanced outputs feeding a ZBIT to be better than the standard RCA output.  In fact the difference is so great, that even with a ZROCK2 connected to the standard RCA output the ZBIT output will still usually win.

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 04/01/20 at 22:41:10

Steve,
Nice prints, they look as good as any of my Cad Monkey's work.
I might scale these up to use some 4" full rangers I have stuck in a garbage can.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/02/20 at 01:22:07


Here is a Buy it Now link for the Tiny Radial plans $19.95 instant download.

https://secure.ultracart.com/cgi-bin/UCEditor?merchantId=DIY&ADD=TRPLANS&themeCode=CAR

The plans are a high resolution .pdf of the picture shown earlier.

-Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/02/20 at 02:25:33




The binding posts I wanted to try arrived yesterday, so I installed them tonight in the antique cherry pair.  

These posts accept banana or a bare wire or a small spade. My wife's pair are similar and it didn't take long before the banana terminated speaker cables got ditched for some small black wire cut to length. She has them on the kitchen counter with her Zen amp.

My thought was that they are smaller than the full size ones I used on the first pair and still allow for bare wire. Any thoughts on which look better?

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Showme on 04/02/20 at 13:17:20

If it's just looks it's not these. The white doesn't do it for me on the beautiful wood. Size is a factor but color is the biggest problem for me. I like the ones used on the Traps. Not sure if they would work on these. I don't have my pair close to look at the moment.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Wavendon on 04/02/20 at 13:55:21

I agree with Showme, white looks cheap....how about gold or silver or faux wood?

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by HockessinKid on 04/02/20 at 14:04:10

Steve,

Maybe something like these: https://www.parts-express.com/mini-gold-plated-insulated-5-way-binding-post-banana-jack-set-2-red-2-black--320-3375. Not sure how they sound but better looking.

HK

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Dominick on 04/02/20 at 20:03:54

Ditto on what HK posted.  I think the clear posts would be the best option, my second choice would be a black or a darker post.  The white just doesn’t do it for me.

Dominick

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Lon on 04/02/20 at 20:37:03

What I think would be neat is if these Mini-Radials could be constructed to be mini-mid bass units such as HSU I think used to make. Stick them out of sight and fill in that range.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by deucekazoo on 04/03/20 at 00:57:33

Steve, these little things look awesome! Can you please take a few more pics of the walnut ones. What finish are you using on these.
Thanks,
John

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/03/20 at 02:08:58


Appreciate the feedback on the binding posts, which confirms my thoughts as well. I have ordered some regular full size, but in black instead of gold. Also some pricey ones for the walnut pair.

Yes, I will take several more pictures as we go along. On this walnut pair, I am using high gloss lacquer. I'm on about coat 10 so far, and have a long way to go before it starts looking like something.

Sadly I gooned myself last week. I accidentally created a perfect pour-on finish on this cutting board. No way to do this on a speaker because it only works on horizontal surfaces. But... now that I've seen this, everything else just looks like shit ; )




So far the first three pair I have finished in satin lacquer, which is the standard Decware speaker finish, and it looks great. The high gloss walnut pair is likely to be a one-off.  

So far my favorite wood and my favorite finish is the Sapele with Linseed oil. There is just something richly satisfying when you hold the natural oiled wood in your hand. Not only the way it looks but the way it feels. The oil works well with the Sapele.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Rich Evans on 04/03/20 at 20:07:45

Thanks for posting the plans!  Time to get back out into the gargae.  And to get some 2" drivers.

and try scaling up to some 5 1/2 I pulled out of the DNAs since I just upgraded the drivers in those.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Rich Evans on 04/03/20 at 20:11:02

thisd might also bbe the time where I point out that my wife is really getting tired oif seeing invoices from parts express and Decware.

I point out that it could  be worse.  I could be collecting amplifiers from here too.


I'm just glad the parts listing for the zen amp kit is so outdated that I can't find all of them or I'd be seriously racking up the bills.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by JBzen on 04/03/20 at 20:19:37

Rich,

The ZKIT1 parts are readily available. I just built the kit last month with the stock listed parts.

Yeah, I feel like Steve is just one step ahead of our desires in audio...a demon if you will! But in a good way!

Enjoy

John

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Rich Evans on 04/03/20 at 20:33:19

oh great.  this time searching for the GXSE10-6-8K results in me finding them.  *thannks* for that.

I'm going ot have to do some serious sucking up to be allowed to blow more money.  As it is I am waiting for another shipment already from PE for 8" and ribbon tweets.



Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by JBzen on 04/04/20 at 09:57:19


Quote:
I'm going ot have to do some serious sucking up to be allowed to blow more money.  As it is I am waiting for another shipment already from PE for 8" and ribbon tweets.


It is always good to have a throttle with indulgence of this hobby. Years ago, I gave up a nasty habit of smoking and directed that money not spent on cigarettes to another less nasty habit of audio. This led to acceptance of my spending by the better half. She never complains of my spending and I keep that spending inline with my old one pack a day habit. Win win all around ;D

Once the ZKIT1 was built and broken in, my first decware amp, it brought out the short comings of my system. So this led to a cartridge upgrade...to a phono stage upgrade. On and on, the amp is very revealing. So be prepared for a good defense to 'blow' more money! Or better yet create a good offense ;)

John

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Rich Evans on 04/04/20 at 21:24:19

I gave up smoking without a plan in place to funnel that money into a hobby.  I've also rpetty well stopped drinking so my "ghood bottle of burmon" fund has dried up too.  Clearly I am doing it wrong.  I have failed to properly negotiate the terms of my surrender.   But that was 30 years ago.  She still puts up with me.

I will build some speakers first.  Then I get to try to explain why I need to build another amp so I can run mono blocks.  At which point I get a new source.  I like to think I have the  long game figured out but I know better.  She seems to be one step ahead of me every time.

When I am allowed to go get more MDF, I'll post pictures of the build(s) to the proper forum.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Gregory on 04/05/20 at 23:42:59

Another question on binding post ....you have a nice sleek streamlined speaker ....it’s sides are sleek, with a slight angle....almost like a little
majestic block ... instead of the binding post sticking out, is there any type, that would be somewhat flush to outside surface ?  ...something that has all the guts on inside...maybe small enough to accept a dual banana plug that people can use, if they have only wire?... I know its in back, but I’ve been around speakers and you always see a little glimpse of the back..especially if you would like to use them on each side guarding a big screen tv..the back would look as sleek as sides with only cable ends showing in back

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Archie on 04/06/20 at 01:04:22

I like these that I put on my F15s.  The do stick out but to me, they are aesthetically pleasing.


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by spyder1 on 04/06/20 at 02:44:20

Steve,

How about Solen  Binding Post? www.partsconnexion.com/SOLEN-51541_ss43741.html

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/06/20 at 03:40:31


The Solen look like great candidates, depending on the quality.  I ordered some to see.  Thanks!

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/06/20 at 03:43:07

Hi Greg, welcome to the forum!  I like your idea, but isn't that what this is?





Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 04/06/20 at 10:49:14

How about these for binding posts?
http://gr-research.com/electracabletubeconnectors-1.aspx

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by spyder1 on 04/06/20 at 18:43:30

The Solen look like great candidates, depending on the quality.  I ordered some to see.  Thanks!


Steve, I hope the "Tiny Radials Speakers" reach final production. I'm interested in owning a pair.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Gregory on 04/06/20 at 21:30:06

...yes Steve ....I like those much better then the larger, more protruding pair...they are such a small handsome speaker with a sleek flair that anything large and protruding would draw your eye away from the beauty of the wood and shape...I feel that a pair of these on the side of a big screen would complement a pair of ERRx ....they are the same shape and could be the ERRx little brother

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Bottlehead on 04/07/20 at 05:36:51

Hey Donnie,

I had forgotten about those binding posts. I have used them, and they work well. It's about as close to flush as you can get to the back of the speaker cabinet. Here they are in an open-baffle mockup that I did a while back (obviously before I converted to the Betsy shape).

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/13/20 at 02:22:31


Soon, I should have another selection of binding posts that I ordered weeks ago at which point I will do the finally assembly on the enclosures I have built. I will post finally assembly pics of each of those. I am looking forward to making some more, now that I have all the jigs made. Getting jigs right is time consuming. If you are only going to ever build a single pair of these for yourself, you don't need jigs.  

Steve



Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/20/20 at 05:55:22


I found a piece of Zebrawood I didn't know I had, and it was just big enough to make a pair of Tiny Radial cabinets.  I'll be putting these together soon.


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/20/20 at 06:00:02


I am still waiting for binding posts to arrive, however I did receive the more expensive pair I ordered for the fancy walnut pair I made for myself... and today there was some sunshine so I could catch some of it with the phone camera.


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/20/20 at 06:06:00


I am still waiting for binding posts to arrive, however I did receive the more expensive pair I ordered for the fancy walnut pair I made for myself... and today there was some sunshine so I could catch some of it with the phone camera.






Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/20/20 at 06:06:59





Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/20/20 at 06:09:06


It will take either my real camera and lights, or a video to appreciate how this grain flips when you angle it in the light.  I'll get to that.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by deucekazoo on 04/20/20 at 14:03:52

That wood is beautiful! I love when wood has character like that.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Showme on 04/21/20 at 00:10:33

If appearance means anything they are still too large. The first ones are still the best. I would go bare wire to reduce the size if need be although I do like bananas.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/21/20 at 00:17:59



Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Dominick on 04/21/20 at 03:20:10

Steve...the pic in post # 89 is absolutely beautiful!! It reminds me of a tiny version my Err speakers with the  Bubbinga Wood veneer.  Congrats on the speakers...they are a winner!

Dominick

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Showme on 04/21/20 at 04:00:47

Steve, now the last pic. If they were black to match the top and bottom you would nailed it for me.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Alex on 04/21/20 at 15:57:08

I wonder what you will charge for these Steve.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Rich Evans on 04/21/20 at 16:08:47

The walnut ones look absolutely stunning.  How many coats of lacquer are you using?  Sorry, I realize we are now talking about the finish on the cabinet rather than he sound quality, but when thinking price, you are going to need to consider how must time is spent on the finish too.  It has been a couple of decades since I have been to the shop, do you have a finishing booth too?

I'm awaiting the upgrades to my anorexic build before I star in on the home version of these.  I really need to get one right/working before I start the next project.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/22/20 at 06:33:26


Hi Rich,

I sprayed about 18 coats of lacquer sanding between each coat until there was no more grain.  Then I shifted to 800 grit wet sanding and linseed oil.  There is no wax yet, and in real life it looks pretty close to water, like the cutting board I did.  But to your point, it is a stupid amount of work, so don't expect to see too many of those and they would likely be double the price.  

It has taken me  about an entire day to make each of these prototypes so far, but here at the end I am getting the time down to doable numbers.  

I am doing another pair now, so far it has taken me about an hour to create the 5/16 panels, an hour to cut the panels to shape and an hour to assemble the panels, followed by an hour to finish the panels, and finally, an hour to do the final assembly with  the binding posts, top plate and bottom plinth.

Just because they are small doesn't mean there are any less steps.

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Rich Evans on 04/22/20 at 13:51:17

smaller means tighter tolerances and less room for mistakes.  The only think you are reducing is material cost. Considering that the real investment is the intellectual property of the design, the reduced lumber is not significant in the picture.

Your intellectual property, 4 hours of labor, plus materials to get a pair of desktop speakers/background sound is going to be a tough price to crack.  FWIW, $499 would be my guess for a price point on these guys.  I'm going off my past experience with the results you have produced on when you chased an idea, because I've not listened to these guys.


That finish is stunning. You've done an incredible job with them. I will eventually make a pair to see how thy sound, because I bought the TB drivers.  They fell into the cart when I was purchasing the wrong x-over caps for my other project.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/22/20 at 17:15:55


Yea, those drivers keep falling into my cart too.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/24/20 at 03:54:17


I am in the process of assembling a Sapele pair of Tiny Radials with a black finish... anxious to see how this looks.



I'm getting to a point where it seems to take about an hour to create the 8 panels.  It takes about an hour to do the glue up and clamp the panels.  It takes about an hour to sand and finish both assembled sets of panels.  It takes about an hour to create the top and bottom pieces, insert the corner pieces, and paint them black.  It then takes about an hour to do the final assembly and test the pair.

That's actually pretty damn good.  I doubt there are too many speakers you can make in 5 hours.  I am honing in on the ideal thickness for the panels, I like to start with 5/16 so that after the panels are assembled I can take it down to 1/4 inch on the jointer.  This takes the bow out of the panels from assembly (clamping) and eliminates sanding.

Tonight I also did a pair with a 3/16 radius on the corners that I really like...  And so far the African Sapele is my favorite wood for this speaker... so I am getting to that point where I think I know how they will have to be made and will be able to compute the costs.  All of these prototypes will be for sale at discounted prices when I am done.

Steve




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by maddog07 on 04/24/20 at 04:36:51

following your creation process of these with great curiosity Steve.  I have always thought "omni" speakers like the ERR... or these, would make phenomenal speakers for home theater.  But have never heard any used in this manner.  I have a friend who has some of the Mirage Omni's, but he uses them in his 2-ch music system only.

I like the idea of the radius on the cabinet corners too - like that a lot!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/24/20 at 05:09:18


OMG let me tell you a story about Radial Loudspeakers in a home theater application...

When I first set up a test bed for multi-channel audio and movies in our tiny studio on Spring street, I had every Decware speaker in there at one time or another, kind of on a rotation.  I ran a series of evaluations on each, the only variable being the speaker.  Very enlightening it was.

The electronics were all custom Decware tube gear, SET amplification was used on every channel and Push-Pull on the massive horn-loaded subs...

This was about the time DVDA (DVD Audio) came out.  It was 24 / 96 bit and 5 channels.  I had a test disk that was a simple electric bass that started in the center of the loudspeakers and then walked slowly in a perfect circle around the listener.  It went from the front center to the front right to the front rear to the left rear to the left front back to the center.

The interesting thing about this test disk was trying to understand how they recorded it.  On most speakers we tried I got about 8 positions beyond the center channel that created the circle.  It was cool.  But some speakers seemed to stretch that figure a little bit towards a higher number which was fascinating because then you start to believe maybe it was recorded with more than 8 or 9 positions in the circle...

So I remember the night well.  It was summer, I brought three pair of radial speakers to the studio and set them up.  2 were used for the front left and right channel.  Two were used in mono for the center but placed directly at the edge of the flat video screen and two were used for the rear channels.

I got all this set up and played that test DVDA with the bass guitar and was absolutely stunned to find that there were 24 places in the circle where the bass player paused, but other than the pause was in a continuous motion around the circle.  The resolution of this was so ridiculously clear it just made you shake your head and. laugh.  Clearly no better speaker for home theater imaging has ever been created.  

So if you compare these to the conventional box speaker with forward firing drivers, Radials are resolving around 7 more positions between the front right and rear right speakers!!!! The locations are as clear as a bell. If all speakers imaged like this being pushed over the top by zero feedback triodes, the industry would have NEVER dreamed of adding more speakers (7.1 and etc.).

The center channel is the best part. Rather than having a speaker point at you and be located below or above your screen, you point the radials at the screen, one on each side.  This way the sound washes the entire screen no mater the size (projection) reflecting back at you and the vocals sound like they are coming out of the mouth of the characters on the screen instead of the sky or from the characters shoes.  We often laughed at the "talking shoes" aspect of "home theater" with the center bar and little cubes that go around the room because it was clearly just toy home theater.  That would be fine but it was advertised as the opposite.

These tiny radials could replicate this in a small family room, say 14 x 16 or so, at a low volume.  Think late night movie.  Save explosive action flicks for your big speakers if you want to hear it loud, otherwise the Tiny Radials will reproduce it with the crazy imaging radials are known for.


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/24/20 at 05:19:05


While I am thinking about 3D imaging with warm big sound in smaller spaces, I had speakers much like these over 20 years ago on my desktop that I made to get past a certain level in the game DECENT.



In this game, sound was everything because you had to hear things coming up from behind you to turn the right way and defend yourself.  I played that game on regular desktop bookshelf speakers and kept getting killed at one particular doorway because something I was hearing in front of me was actually behind me.

When you see the choppy graphics that was chosen over lag.  The movement was real life fast.  As fast as you could move and the sound was perfectly sinked with it.  I suppose it was made for headphones but that completely failed to solve the problem on this particular level...

After building a pair of purpose built speakers for the project which were desktop planar panel speakers, not even radials, I was able to hear that the enemy was coming from behind and below through a passageway hidden by a fake rock doorway...  without the speakers the only way to get past this level was by pure chance and luck.

Basically these Tiny Radials are designed and excel as desktop speakers on either side of your keyboard.  Expansive deep and wide soundstage, completely real sounding without having to go into the listening room!!!  Probably would have shaved weeks off this game as I member it.

Steve

P.S.  Haha I just realized this is a DOS game - predates windows.  ahh the good old days when everything worked...



Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Gregory on 04/24/20 at 20:59:50

...Steve have you decided on which binding post you will be using...I remember you had a pair of low profile ones in Reply #80 that you thought about but you also had a pair on your own Burled Walnut pair that you really liked Reply #88-#89

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by deucekazoo on 04/26/20 at 19:41:40

Steve, I remember playing that game a long time ago!

So how do you think these little guys would sound mounted on the ceiling? Driver facing downward for surround sound speakers?


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/28/20 at 02:48:53


Not very good, as they just wouldn't be loud enough in most cases unless you mean mounted on the ceiling close to your head in which case yes, works great. The trick with these is near field listening. For example, say you listen on a couch placed into the room and you had a small table behind the couch for nicknacks... you could put a pair there and it would sound exactly like a real pair farther away in the back of the room.  

Of course that's with a reference level of 2 watts. More power will get louder, but then the speakers should be ideally crossed-over at 80Hz.  With a high pass crossover set at 80Hz you should be able to do 30 watts or so without issues.  

The beauty of this speaker is that it works in ultra-small tight places and makes those places sound like a spacious room.  To fill a normal to larger size space, like the Decware Listening room they have to be cranked with the full 2 watts and achieve only what would be considered a fairly low listening level at normal 10 foot distances.

Steve




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/28/20 at 02:53:02


Here's what the radiuses corners on the cabinets look like.  I am making bottom plinths with a matching radius for this variation.






Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Bottlehead on 04/28/20 at 04:34:16

Wow, Steve, getting better all the time.

Randy

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by deucekazoo on 04/28/20 at 14:11:56

Thanks for the reply Steve, my room is about the size of you room so no go.

I do like the rounded corners also. Is that Hickory I see in that picture?

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/28/20 at 20:23:39


It's a piece of Cherry I had with some sapwood in it.  The other ones are Sapele.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/01/20 at 05:26:36


So naturally I started to wonder... hmmm.  Wouldn't it be cool if they still had the same game, but with todays graphics... imagine playing it again 20 years later with real images!

Low and behold, it still exists, and it is exactly the same but with todays graphics.  



So naturally I gathered up a pair of Tiny Radials and enjoyed a good ass kicking fest that lasted about an hour.  Fun stuff!  Hehe, I fantasized about this 20 years ago when I first played the game with the low res graphics.  It made it super fast, which was essential to staying alive.  Still I always thought about how great it would be to have high res graphics AND speed.  Well, it was great... and with sound to match!

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/01/20 at 05:50:38



Quote:
...Steve have you decided on which binding post you will be using...I remember you had a pair of low profile ones in Reply #80 that you thought about but you also had a pair on your own Burled Walnut pair that you really liked Reply #88-#89


Actually I have been stalling this thread a bit waiting for the ones I ordered to get here. Still no sign of them. Meanwhile I have been putting the prototypes together with whatever I have laying around...

Steve




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/05/20 at 03:11:32


Guess I'll never see them, so I ordered something similar from Parts Express.  Those I should see in 2 weeks with any luck.  The good news is that I've tried enough different kinds and had enough time to think about it, and the ones I ordered from Parts Express I think will be the ones to beat.

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/05/20 at 03:21:17




We're going to need a good size comparison...

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/05/20 at 03:25:20



Walnut crotch wood high gloss prototypes.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/05/20 at 03:36:06



Zebra wood hand-oiled prototypes.



Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/05/20 at 03:46:43



African paduke hand-oiled prototypes.



Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/05/20 at 03:47:41



Black sapele prototypes.



Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/05/20 at 03:48:21



Antique cherry prototypes.



Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Jeff of Arabica on 05/05/20 at 04:30:34

Dibs on the walnut crotch wood!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/05/20 at 05:00:09


Jeff,

You can have the 16mB high res PDF poster... I plan on keeping these until I make an even better pair... might be awhile... but fair enough, if I succeed and if you still want these, you'll have first dibs on them.

Steve

Here is the PDF file:  http://www.decware.com/newsite/images/Desktopomni.pdf


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Jeff of Arabica on 05/05/20 at 05:11:41

😂 Fair enough! They are stunning enough to hold out and hope.

For now, I will print out the radial poster and replace the Farrah Fawcett on my wall.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Bottlehead on 05/05/20 at 07:58:38

Jeff/Steve,

With you on the walnut crotch wood. Those are stunning!

Randy

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Rich Evans on 05/08/20 at 21:38:39

The new Forstner bit arrived.  Which is good because my earlier attempts to core the `3/4" bodies was a colossal failure. SO with what was left of the bodies I confirmed that it will hold the drivers.  Now I just need to start over.  I also want to find my interlocking bit for my router to improve assembly accuracy and ease.
3/4" you ask?  When everything you have is a hammer...it all looks like a nail.  3/4" is what I have stocked in the garage so that was what I prototyped with.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by JBzen on 05/09/20 at 10:37:42

Rich,

I have this amounst the hammers and nails.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B011F2U8R6/ref=cm_sw_r_em_apa_i_OENTEb76T2XC7

Check out some YouTube videos on how it can make quick work of wood shaping.

John

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Rich Evans on 05/10/20 at 23:56:11

Well, after more experiments and finally getting a jig to work the way I wanted, I had 2 "cabinets" that were good enough to drop the drivers into and find out what all the fuss was about.

Steve. Damn.  I don't even have the tops on these guys (I was a little excited to make sure this was  legit) and I am absolutely FLOORED.  Please ignore the lack of finish, hot glue to hold the drivers in place, and missing the top section.  Wow.  


These things are going to breed like Tribbles from Star Trek.  I'm seeing them appear in every room in my house.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/11/20 at 16:33:32



Quote:
These things are going to breed like Tribbles from Star Trek


That is what's been happening here at the mothership...  enclosures everywhere as I continue to fine-tune the process!  I should see binding posts in this week so I hope to put a few more pair together.

When this project started, I would have had to get $500.00 for a pair just to make wages.  But I have been continually practicing and have used this as an excuse to buy a few more tools so I am well on my way to a personal goal of half that amount.  

I suspect you'll see these for sale on the web site by July with any luck.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Rich Evans on 05/11/20 at 20:58:50

What about changing the bottom of the enclosure to have notches eliminate the need to create he base and internal posts?

you would then have the hard surface on which you place the speakers become the bottom of the "enclosure".  So the bottom of the panels looks like an H.  That would eliminate the need to create the base, some of the glue-ups and finishing.


of course that makes your existing jigs  obsolete. you now have to make taller panels. but that is what prototyping is all about.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/12/20 at 02:11:18


The binding posts I picked out have finally arrived!





Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/12/20 at 02:11:57


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/12/20 at 02:25:12


I am still learning things...  

A) Holding the different woods in your hand and rotating the cabinet as you look it over is far better than a static photograph.  I am trying to figure out how to handle that.  I have ordered a rotating platform and plan to see if a 30 second video wouldn't be the answer.  Otherwise, it would take a lot of pictures.

B) These will never be offered in Wenge.  Tried to pattern cut eight 1/4" thick Wenge panels four different ways and with three different bits and after destroying the first five panels I decided to save face and just threw the remaining three in the trash before I wrecked them.

Steve





Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Showme on 05/12/20 at 04:20:48

Those binding posts measure up to the quality of the rest of your efforts. Congrats!!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by HockessinKid on 05/12/20 at 12:05:28

Great choice on the binding posts Steve. Good luck with these tiny dancers.

HK

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Archie on 05/12/20 at 17:00:04

Those are what Zygi used on my HR1s.  Very nice posts.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Greg C on 05/12/20 at 22:03:46

....I like them ...classy looking ...the brushed look compliments the style of the wood cube ...you have a good eye Steve ...I’m interested in a Walnut pair when the time comes.

Greg

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Lon on 05/12/20 at 22:11:54

They're intriguing speakers for sure, and I like these binding posts. I'd go for a pair if I didn't already use HR-1s with my TV, and I don't have a desk PC etc. to use them with.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 05/12/20 at 23:19:46

I think that these speakers would lend themselves to a little bluetooth amp.

The little Parts Express 50 watt boards would work well with them.

I know, heresy, but still I think it would be good for around the house, kitchen type music.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/13/20 at 01:59:12


We put a bluetooth receiver board in my wife's Zen amp that she uses for her kitchen system.  I tested it with hi-res streams and it works well.


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/13/20 at 02:28:36

 
Arm chair speakers, for the guy who doesn't have a decent room to set up large speakers... kicked back with a pair on the arms of an appropriate chair like this, a person would hear scary good 3D sound stage that fairly well mimics an actual full size pair of radials in a well done listening room to you, but to everyone else in the house, be no louder than a TV set.



I think this exercise would educate a lot of people on 3D imaging and at the same time make one realize how much effect a room actually has on full size speakers.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/13/20 at 02:42:00

Well Donnie you'll be happy to know there will be kits available too.  One will be partially assembled and one will not be.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by JBzen on 05/14/20 at 12:02:38

Very cool arm chair implementation 8-)

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/16/20 at 05:30:42


Despite the lack of pictures, things are progressing nicely.  I found out my neighbor across the street is a bit of a 3D printing / CAD guru!  So,  after a long conversation he is going to create the CAD for his machine and 3D print a Tiny Radial.  Now, don't get excited, because the cost of this may actually be unattractive but the only way to know is to actually make a pair and see.

To offset the reduction in mass, I will likely install a weight in the plinth. The walls of the enclosure will be a hollow honeycomb that will likely be super stiff and it might actually be pretty dead.  We will see.

This weekend I spent most of it making swings for the grandchildren. And despite being only 50 feet away from my wood shop, I have built the whole thing without electricity. Just a simple pull saw and lots of 4x6 timber. The experience has given me a new appreciation for the Japanese carpenters and the pull saw in general. In fact since I built my new shop, the only hand saws I own are pull saws. Using them for just right at a year, I know for a fact I will never own an English push saw like all the ones I grew up with. I have an extension cord, and a shop 50 feet away. I have a skill saw, saws awl, jig saw, and miter saws, and believe it or not is is actually faster and easier to just hand cut these 4x posts with a pull saw so that's what I've been doing.

I have built the swings straight away in front of the woodshop doors so I can enjoy watching and listening to the grandkids playing on it while I putz around out there.  Doesn't get any better than that!

Also thanks to the neighbor girl, who is probably about 8 years old.  She is a tom-boy / daredevil who I have personally witnessed doing faceplates in the gravel driveway on her bike no less than 100 times over the past 4 years.  She tested the swing set in ways that I wouldn't have thought feasible, which resulted in some structural upgrades.

At the same time during my breaks, I have been working on making some Tiny Radial Kits. I have a feeling that kits might be popular since you can sand and finish it yourself, not to mention have the satisfaction of putting it together with your own creative juices!


Have a great weekend!


Steve



 

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 05/16/20 at 14:11:08

Steve,
I've experimented with 3D printing quite a bit.
We have several big industrial machines at work and one of my CAD Monkeys has one at home.

I think that the honeycomb version will be overly resonant, there isn't enough mass there to damp itself. At least that has been my experience.

Here is a pair of speakers that my CAD Monkey made a couple of weeks ago. Please notice your influence on his design.




(Looking at his photo, it isn't hard to tell that he is 27 and single)

They are made from Mylar tube with water jetted aluminum ends and 3D printed dispersion cones. He is using a 4" Dayton Audio driver on top with a matching passive radiator on the bottom.

Here is his printer in action.




He did a hell of a good job with the entire package. He used a little Parts Express Bluetooth amp running off of his drill battery, so he made a enclosure out of a little carrying case and then made up a little transport wheelie deal to bring them into work. (He has been working from home, 2 weeks at home and then one week at work, it looks like he has a bit of time on his hands).



I think that he did a great job.

As a aside, it is interesting on how enthused I can get these young guys in stereos and such. They haven't been exposed to anything like it before.

Hanging out with me is a lesson in applying their engineering skills into something that they can enjoy.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by JBzen on 05/18/20 at 11:21:55

I am thinking of using the tiny radials as rear speakers for HT use in the Chariot. When the rear corner bass traps are installed there will be a need to replace the current rears with a side wall version. Tiny radials with the recommended 80hz filter on pedestals or a shelf set just to the rear and above the seated area with Death Boxes filling in the lows is my thought. My question is how far from the wall will the TR's have to be?
I truly appreciate a box full of carpenter hand tools and own such. It just does not make sense to pull out a heavy awkward power tool, set it up, plug it in, and put on PPE for a few cuts! I am certain you had a great day puttzen in the yard listening to the birds and children while feeling the warmth of spring air and smelling the fresh cut wood.
I almost was going to say that the American version of the pull saw, gasoline chain saw, would have made quick work of the task but would have degraded the senses.
Cheers!
John

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/19/20 at 05:14:33

;D. Those are killer!  Nice amount of mass too!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/19/20 at 05:27:07


Today I received a small turntable that I can set the radial on.  It will spin the unit slowly so I can take a short 30 second video of it and cover the same ground as dozens of images.

Here is a test run.






click on the image above to see the video

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by JBzen on 05/19/20 at 12:39:17

I'll bet the Walnut Crotch will look awesome on the table.

Speaking of different versions of pull saws, here is a short video of a project that was turned into a temporary playground for the grandkids.

https://youtu.be/v-t01FNmmKE

John

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/21/20 at 05:11:43

Nice!  They can't get that experience from a cell phone app!

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/21/20 at 05:22:07



https://decware.wistia.com/medias/zvmorauanf

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Greg C on 05/21/20 at 22:53:17

...can’t open this one Steve...says item cant be found

Greg

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/22/20 at 03:22:07

Fixed it.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/22/20 at 03:26:47




https://decware.wistia.com/medias/py724q9jt3


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Nick324 on 05/22/20 at 15:52:59

These are the cutest and most interesting little speakers, beautiful job on them Mr. Deckert, I'm so happy I finally ran across this thread. There are other products I wanted from you also, I might as well add these to the list. Bravo sir.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/22/20 at 19:02:41



https://decware.wistia.com/medias/oolhegws8j


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by joralieu on 05/23/20 at 01:21:31

Working on building these. One question, how do you attach the top lens?

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/23/20 at 02:57:06


The top piece uses four 1/8" spacers that are glued in place. I use rubber-reinforced super glue for that. The spacers can be anything you want really, but I choose nylon stand-offs because they were handy.

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by joralieu on 05/23/20 at 16:16:45

So it is glued permanently, no screws? How do you disassemble if needed?

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/24/20 at 02:42:38

Access is generally done through the bottom.  The only reason you would need access from the top is if the driver was blown.  In that case you can just pry the lens off and re-glue it onto the replacement driver.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/25/20 at 04:21:15




I have been able to get the backbone of the Tiny Radial Project finished tonight finally after many weeks of contemplation on how to do it.  This is going to be something new for Decware, a new way of doing things and that of course makes it complicated on the back end but as usual I have pulled thought it and even have the web page done, albeit with only four products on it at present.

This process is different in that with these speakers we're not going to be taking orders -- building them over several weeks or months and then shipping them to you.  Instead, we will be posting finished speakers that are ready to ship on the page as we get time to build them.

Additionally, all the speakers that are built will remain on the page indefinitely.  This will let people see what is possible, and what has been done. I actually wish I had done this with all our speakers over the past 20 years...

Finally, a form called the Tiny Radial Wish List will be present so people can write in what they wish was on the page... this list will be referred to for ideas on new Tiny Radials to make, and those on the list will be emailed if any of their ideas are made and listed on the page.

This thread is listed on the page as well, since Tiny Radials are also being sold as D.I.Y. plans this thread will be ongoing indefinitely.

Finally, you will see some D.I.Y. Tiny Radial Kits for those who don't have the tools or the time to make the parts from scratch!

Here is a link to the Tiny Radial Page.  Remember there can be up to a week before the page is updated and there is only an inventory of 1 for each speaker.  You are purchasing the actual speakers shown on the page.  

Don't worry we will be adding more all the time so just keep checking back.  Those that have been sold will be updated within a few days with a SOLD sign so you don't keep clicking on it.

https://www.decware.com/newsite/TinyRadialProject.html

-Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Geno on 05/25/20 at 15:04:46

These things ought to sell like hotcakes! The finished ones and the kits.

Well done, Steve!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Bottlehead on 05/27/20 at 06:09:57

Great project, Steve! Loved watching the evolution. I filled out my wish list - PurpleHeart!

Randy

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Nick324 on 05/28/20 at 12:07:12

Trying to get my hands on that pair of African Paduke, they would match my  headphone stands so nicely! Hopefully my order went through. These really seem incredible Steve, very much looking forward to hearing them.


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by hells on 05/28/20 at 21:40:22

I snagged the Zebrawood ones, excited!

EDIT: Steve, as I'm a bit of an idiot, which of those jacks is the negative (black) ones? The left of the speaker? They're both red which throws me lol

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Jeff of Arabica on 05/29/20 at 03:31:09

Donnie,
Those look bad ass!  I absolutely adore the dispersion pieces sitting above the drivers.  It reminds me of the great Hegeman Model-1a's I own designed by the late, great Stu Hegeman.  

The aluminum pieces look great and are always welcome as a solid, quality material in audio.  

Such a cool experimental project you and your young designer colleagues embarked on.  

Question is, how do they sound?

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/29/20 at 03:37:34

The left jack is positive on those.  Congrats, and we'll expect a full report : )

Remember, none of these are burned-in so they have almost zero time on them.  

Burn them in with 1 watt on some bass heavy music. That's what I was doing during the original smart phone video I posted. This is why no one was familiar with the music in that original video. I didn't make that video for the purpose of a demo, I was just burning in the speakers and was rather shocked at the sound I was hearing from a pair of 1.5 inch drivers to I captured it with the phone.

-Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/29/20 at 03:48:52

Nick, your order did go through.  In fact the page has been cleaned out except for the Red Oak Kit.  No worries, there will be more soon.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by hells on 05/29/20 at 04:26:24

Steve,

Absolutely! Can you carve that into the wood or something? 😂 I would pay extra for that lol

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/29/20 at 05:28:02


I have ordered up more wood including what was submitted on the wish list, so more fun hours in the wood shop to look forward to. (Nothing relaxes me more than sanding a tiny radial as I watch the horse outside in the field through the 4 x 8 picture window in my shop and hearing my grandchildren play in the back yard.)

I just finished a pair of Birdseye maple enclosures that are noteworthy. I'll put a couple more together this weekend.

Because Tiny Radials are relatively small, they actually qualify for what I call super exotics... wood that is too small and too expensive to make even amplifier bases from let alone full-size speakers. So I am going to explore some of this as well.  Why not right?  

If you love hardwood, there is nothing quite like holding it in your hand, especially when it fits your hand.  This is an experience you don't get with full-size speakers that makes Tiny Radials fun.  It also is why I like a hand-oiled finish because nothing else feels like it.

Steve


P.S.  (Nothing relaxes me more than sanding a tiny radial as I watch the horse outside in the field through the 4 x 8 picture window in my shop and hearing my grandchildren play in the back yard.) -- I have all of you to thank for that as well as the beautiful people who work here and my wife... it's really all I've ever wanted and each of you are what has made it possible.

Thank-you.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Wavendon on 05/29/20 at 15:36:25

I feel very fortunate to have successfully ordered a pair of Tiny Radials, delivery is next week. I would love to hear recommendations for an amp to power them. I cannot afford a Decware amp at the moment as I have a wedding to pay for.
The Radials will be for a small office and a limited budget.....lets say under $500

All my best to you Steve, you have created a lifestyle that we all seek and but a few have obtained

Warm regards,
Andy

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by pursuitofnow on 05/29/20 at 16:54:29

Congrats on grabbing the speakers. I know you said you can't afford a decware amp and keep under $500 but I can't think of a better amp than the se84ufo as a budget amp for these speakers. There is a 10% coupon until june 1st which would bring the amp to around $900. That's only $400 over your budget. Just reduce the food/alchohol budget for the wedding  ;D

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 05/30/20 at 14:00:39

I was just thinking about building a pair out of of Koa wood.
Eek, one board large enough to build a pair was around $600.

My tastes exceed my income!

So I'm back to thinking about particle board and $1.00 spray bomb from the Dollar store.

Or thinking out of the box, perhaps reclaimed pallet wood might just work!
I sure hope that there aren't any of those nasty bugs that eat everything burrowed up in the boards.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Greg C on 05/30/20 at 22:56:56

...hey Donnie do you think you will paint them red  :)

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 05/31/20 at 02:37:11

It is interesting that everyone thinks that I only work in red!
I spent all day today painting a pair of speakers in gray.

I am expanding my horizons. There is a whole color wheel of possibilities out there for me.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by hells on 05/31/20 at 02:46:23

Like...dark red? Bright red? Endless possibilities!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/31/20 at 02:48:11

gray is not a color.  From Red you can go either orange or purple.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/31/20 at 04:51:49


For all of you who will be getting your Tiny Radials in the mail soon, I have installed some nice clear rubber feet on each pair. You can see those feet in all the prior videos.

Sadly I have come to realize I don't like them all that much because they set the plinth too high from the surface it sets on.  I found some much smaller rubber feet that I have been trying tonight and I like them much better.   They are softer, greatly reduce the air gap between the plinth and the surface and I am pretty certain it sounds a lot better.  I spent the last 2 hours listening to a new pair breaking in with the clear larger rubber feet and kept thinking boy... these are going to have to break in a bit before I can really enjoy them.  And, yes, after 2 hours or so they started to get pretty good.  

Here's the interesting part.  I took another pair,  this maple pair, with the new feet and swapped them in place of the other ones that had been burning in for over two hours.  This pair had never been played.  This pair sounded better.  So the moral of the story is that I was waiting for the feet to break in, and they were the wrong feet.

Anyone who gets theirs and wants these softer mico-sized rubber feet can rest easy, I will be having Sarah mail out a set of 8 feet by US Mail in the coming week for you.

Amazing the things that make a difference...

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/31/20 at 04:56:08




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/31/20 at 05:43:23


In retrospect, who would have thought something like feet would make such a difference... but then duhhha... how a speaker is coupled to the floor or in this case surface has a large effect on it's sound.

So in the video of the maple pair, I am listening to a 2 watt Zen Triode Amplifier directly driven from a Cambridge DAC/Streamer connected with DSR interconnects and ZSTYX speaker wire that is only one meter long.  Reference grade components and wire.  What I am hearing is more than respectable, it's impressive.

I'll have to toss a small solid state amp at it, and see what happens.  I can't imagine it's going to sound anything like what I'm hearing now, but I'm curious so unless someone beats me to it, that will have to be another test.  :)

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/31/20 at 05:50:39

https://decware.wistia.com/medias/0s3myz7em2


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/01/20 at 02:39:10


So it finally happened...

Tonight I'm listening to the Tiny Radials set up like they were in the video.  Chris Jones comes on, Roadhouse.  It sounded so good!  Then I began to panic... crap, I think I have the amp turned on in the listening room and both systems are playing at the same time.  I listened carefully and couldn't tell.  I actually had to get up and walk into the listening room to see if the amp was on.  






It was not.


So a pair of these setting 1 foot apart, 5 feet off my right shoulder at ear height sounds just like the speakers in the listening room, sound coming through the door just off my right elbow.  Same depth.  Same space.  Same warmth.  I remember this happening before, being fooled several times into thinking I was listening to the main speakers through the doorway.

This is a pleasant contrast to the other night when I hooked up a pair out of phase without knowing it and wondered what the hell I was thinking!  

Steve




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 06/02/20 at 23:57:47

I'm starting to like butternut wood.
It looks pretty cool.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/03/20 at 03:44:59

I'm sorry but it's such a set up I have to say I'm surprised you don't go with redwood ; )

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Geno on 06/03/20 at 04:41:00

;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/05/20 at 05:56:39


Here is the owner's manual for the Tiny Radials...

https://www.decware.com/newsite/TinyRadialManual.pdf

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by JKC on 06/06/20 at 05:11:19

I’ve ordered a pair in Birdseye Maple. The demos sound great with headphones and I think they will be nice to have set up in the house for my wife as she is too afraid to turn on all my main equipment when I’m not around! I’ll try them with my main 300B monoblocks to get an idea of their capabilities, but will ultimately need to find a compact and easy to operate solution for the wife.

These and the ZLC I have on order will be my first pieces of Decware equipment, but I’ve been curious about many of the other products for a while.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/06/20 at 21:06:48


Welcome to the Decware family and the forums!

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Nick324 on 06/07/20 at 00:42:43

Thank you Steve, these are a great "fun" speaker to have around and they allowed me to hear what radials can sound like in a miniaturized scale. They match my headphone stands beautifully and sound lovely in my office. You made my weekend, good health and happy listening to all!
Nick

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/07/20 at 03:06:13

Thanks Nick -- I'd love to see a picture of them in their new home!


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Nick324 on 06/07/20 at 03:23:21

It’s embarrassing to admit, i spent  short while trying to upload pictureS and failed miserably...

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Nick324 on 06/07/20 at 04:54:38

Hey Steve, why does one speaker have a tiny little screw/post sticking out of it while the other does not?
Sorry, I keep trying to upload photos but the files are always too big and i can't figure out how to shrink them...




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/07/20 at 05:46:38



upload images

Then click UPLOAD

Then select BBC code full linked.

Copy it into your post.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/07/20 at 05:49:15


Quote:
Hey Steve, why does one speaker have a tiny little screw/post sticking out of it while the other does not?


Whaaat???

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Nick324 on 06/07/20 at 06:05:20

Your reaction got me out of bed to go and figure out exactly what that little screw/post was. Well, humorously enough it was the 4th screw from the top corner of the speaker. It was being held straight up in the cone because of the magnet it seems and looked just like a tiny little post. I pulled it up and out before any harm could come to the tiny little speaker. I will take some fresh pictures and follow instructions to post tomorrow. The screw must have come loose during shipping and wound up in the cone. I had no idea what kind of weird little speaker this was this why I asked about it. LOL I feel silly, I should have realized something was not right the moment I saw it.  No harm no foul...

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/07/20 at 06:51:29


Wow, with all the effort  to use long 4-40 machine screws in tapped holes to make sure it can't vibrate out while it is playing music...  what the hell are they doing at UPS anyway?!?!?   Playing racketball I suppose.  Good, another refinement then.  We will add thredlock to the threads.  The red stuff (not blue) so it remains removable.

That's such a trip.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Nick324 on 06/07/20 at 11:41:10

The speakers look and Sound great, this site is just a bit difficult to use on mobile devices, I’ll eventually get the hang of it...Here they are next to some custom headphone stands of Padauk wood.





Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 06/07/20 at 13:59:22

Like magic!


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by lazb on 06/07/20 at 16:25:18

Steve, Hopefully,  I am not being presumptive but, in model making endeavors, especially where balsa is being used, threaded holes in wood are much more stable if hardened with thin CA glue. This MAY require running the tap through again. Just a thought.

Joe

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/08/20 at 02:01:01




https://decware.wistia.com/medias/paw58z7crt

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/08/20 at 02:14:08


Hi Nick,

Sorry, I left you hanging on how to post an image.  I forgot to say that when you have pasted the URL into your message, like you did, then select it and click on the image tag .




The image tag places the following at the end of your link.  That tells the forum that the link is to an image and causes it to just display the image instead of the link.

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by maddog07 on 06/09/20 at 01:48:50

do the tiny radial cabinets have any damping material inside them?

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by jeff of wa on 06/09/20 at 03:12:12

Steve, Thanks for making another great set of speaker plans for the DIYer's out there.
These were a lot of fun to build and the sound stage is awesome.  With a little break in time these really warmed up and are perfect background music for the kitchen and deck.
Pictured here on top of my HDT's I built in 14’.
woods used:
Sapelle, padauk, and walnut.  Finish rubio monocoat, except sapelle is BLO.  
Lenses and bases are all walnut with one or two coats of ebony stain.
Construction notes: I did not dado the side pieces or use a router template as you did.  Instead I made a tapered template that a side could be double sided taped to and then cut on the table saw with 45 and taper in a single cut.  I was afraid of tearout with router bits.  The boxes were then glued up with blue tape and corner braces added while the glue set.    
I had great success with #6-1/2” machine head screws to hold driver, and #6-3/4” machine head screws used for base with pre-drilled holes.
To mount the lenses I mounted short nails that barely stuck out of the lense, then used it to match mark the top plastic plate of the driver to mark where to drill ~.005” undersize holes to hold the nail.  Then replaced the short nails for longer ones that held the beads and extended into the driver plate ~ 1/8”.  No glue required.  Gold beads/spacers were taken from the kids craft set for bracelets :D






Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Greg C on 06/09/20 at 03:42:51

....good job Jeff ...they look really nice

Greg

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/09/20 at 05:23:41


Thanks Jeff!  Welcome to the forums!  What a nice surprise to see Tiny Radials popping up and all looking so nice!

I have to ask... From start to finish what was your time per pair?

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by jeff of wa on 06/09/20 at 14:40:27

1st pair 12 hours including changing planer knives, setting up bandsaw for resawing etc.  Built a trial box from 1/2" ply to test 45 stops on saw and test tapering jig.  I was also salvaging from scrap wood that didn't make things very efficient
2nd and 3rd pair built together for total of 8hrs.  
If I did more I'd imagine shaving another 2 hrs from this now that I'm jigged up and learned from many miss-steps.  I'd also 3d print some more jigs
I saved a ton of finishing time using Rubio monocoat. If you like the look of oil fnishes check this stuff out. the high price is outweighed by the very little amount of material used and time saved, and the finish holds up on floors

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/15/20 at 03:12:04

3D printing jigs, that's just cheating.

I actually have 3D printed a prototype of the enclosure that I will be posting soon.  Also took your advise and purchased some monocoat. Anxious to try it out.  I have a walnut pair and a pair in Afromosia and a pair in Purple Heart Tamarind, which was $80 as pictured below.



Wait till you see the pair that came from this!  Believe it or not there was no waste, only shavings and sawdust.  It was cutting it close and no room for booboos.

I started a set of regular Purple Heart 1/4 inch panels and found it much like the wenge as being non-router friendly.  So I did successfully cut some blanks using a taper jig on my table saw.  I will increase the thickness to 3/8 and use the taper jig on the next attempt.

Also, someone who filled out the wish list form on the Tiny Radial page wanted to see some red oak, so I took a perfectly straight board that 's been in my shop over a year now, and cut it up into the 7 x 4 x 3/8 blanks which all turned into potato chips to where by the time I got them flat again they are right at 1/4 inch. (It was a lot of stored energy)

I also set up another router to create the radius cut inside the panels to receive the tapered driver.  Even though it only took 5 minutes or so with a sanding drum by hand, often this would lead to revisiting the sanding drum to take more material off.  Now the process takes 3 seconds and is exactly the same every time... so now the truth comes out, the Tiny Radial project is an excuse to buy more tools ; )

Anyway I'll post more pictures soon.

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/15/20 at 03:43:25


Today while cutting some more tiny radial blanks, I fixed my world which has been bent for the past week.  You see, the swings I have been building for the grandchildren use 4x6 posts buried in the ground and supported about 30 inches above the ground.  The rest is just sky, so the pole is allowed to flex making it a self-swinging swing set.  



All was going well for the first few weeks, both posts straight as arrows and perfectly plumb. Then of course one post had to warp. It happened within a few days all of a sudden, and put the top of the post over 2.5 inches out of plumb. Every time I open my shop door to leave, there it is, the perfectly straight and plumb post and the one behind it that is starting to look like a giant boner. So distracting, you just can't imagine.

First I sealed it, all except for the side that didn't stretch.  I watered the other side for a couple days in vane hoping it would swell up and warp back the other way.  God I'm so gullible.  So today, I cut the firkin pole 50% in half, twice, and drove hardwood wedges into it to force it straight again.



Anyway it's plumb again and my world feels correct.  Amazing how something like that simply has to be dealt with or life as we know it can not continue.  Enough things are out of whack on the planet right now and by God, my damn pole is not going to be one of them.

Amen.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 06/15/20 at 03:47:15

You gotta love 3D printers, if you can draw it you can print it.
It takes a while to really wrap your mind around what you can do with the printer.

Think about never needing to hold inventory of a part, just a CAD file, no need for it to physically sit around waiting for someone needing it, just print it when you need it.

But it sure isn't as pretty as a nice hunk of wood.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/16/20 at 22:20:06


I found this chunk of Exotic KD Afrormosia on eBay and purchased it to make a couple pair of Tiny Radials.



Here is the first pair of cabinets from that wood...



Steve






Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/16/20 at 22:24:54


Thanks to Jeff of WA for the Rubio recommendation.  Pretty impressive stuff.  



Look at it... looks like several coats of hand-rubbed oil with some good wax buffed into it., but as advertised it's one coat wiped off in 10 minutes.  I used 4 mL of product to do both speakers... I've really never seen anything like it.  An impossibly even finish for one coat of anything, let alone oil.

Steve





Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Bottlehead on 06/17/20 at 03:49:01

I'm more of a dark wood guy, but those are real beauties, Steve.  

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by jeff of wa on 06/17/20 at 15:36:37

Beautiful wood Steve.

I'm shocked at how well the rubio has held up on my walnut slab dining table.  It took about 3 weeks to fully cure where i was comfortable with the kids spilling their juice and whatnot on it.  The price is scary but the stuff goes forever.  I am still workign on my first can and i did a 13x3' table, both sides, and 10' bench and still have enough left over for several more tiny radials  :D

are you planing the boards to 1/4" or using a drum sander?  I would have preffered to sneak up on a drum sander but ended up double sticking the resawed planks to a long, thick, and flat board to then run through the planer but still ended up with some snipe to sand out.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/17/20 at 16:31:09


Hi Jeff,

Yea, I've been planing the panels to no less than 1/4 inch.  5/16 is better and I've also been doing 3/8 inch. Believe it or not, my planar (that has tormented me with snipe since I got it), has ZERO snipe with these small panels. It's a miracle. Probably wondering how I got it to do that -- right?  Simple, I purchased a drum sander... that I have yet to use even once on Tiny Radials.

Boy wood moves a lot. A percentage of the panels tend to crown slightly after everything is glued up. It's only usually a few thousandths, but the way the light hits a panel when it is perfectly flat is noticeable compared to one that is not which changes how good the finish looks. So after the panels are assembled and the glue is dry, I lightly sand them to find out where any of the small tear out is that you can't see until it fills with sawdust. Then using that as a guide, I run all four sides through the jointer.  From there I radius the corners and then do the finish sanding and oil it.

Last night I cut a set of panels out of Purpleheart which I find to be much like Wenge - allergic to pattern routing, so I cut them on the table saw like you have been, and found the process to take less time because I no longer have to rough saw the pattern on the band saw first.  I can just take a stack of blanks and cut them all in about 4 minutes.  Before, that part took 4 minutes per panel (32 minutes).

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by JKC on 06/20/20 at 01:35:18

Arrived just in time for the weekend:









Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by JKC on 06/20/20 at 03:16:37

Cheers!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by JKC on 06/20/20 at 20:56:26

I made a few demos with the T-Rads. I don’t have a great recording setup or anything, but the videos do sound ok with headphones. In person the speakers really are quite impressive.

John Lee Hooker - Tupelo
https://youtu.be/XmWrwADB0_M

Pink Floyd - Speak to Me/Breathe
https://youtu.be/WBZkVeSzfUo

Nicolas Jaar - Colomb
https://youtu.be/aYHD-0_nTPc

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/21/20 at 00:42:19


Nice!  It is really helpful to hear them in different places, thank-you for the videos!

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Nick324 on 06/21/20 at 15:26:48

Steve, besides these being so very visually appealing they are great performers when used within their volume and power limitations, admittedly I add a subwoofer because of my own sound preferences but the SQ of these in a small room or desktop style application is genuinely top tier. I have run them head to head with my Falcon LS3/5a's and I think I could have saved myself $2700 had these been out a few years earlier...Some speakers are "good enough" and these absolutely fall into that category for me IMHO. I so badly want to add one of your amps to my collection now, I can't wait till you offer a sale again, I've been setting aside funds diligently trying to save up!


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/22/20 at 04:10:25


Nick, that's high praise indeed. And you really nailed it about the 'good enough' category. These little things defy expectations, just like the little Zen amps do, and that makes listening a lot of fun. Having fun while listening is well, listening. Becoming distracted by speaker placement, equipment settings, overall sound quality, etc., takes the fun out of it.

I know I'm having a blast making these. Still refining the process, and the more I do the more therapeutic making them is becoming. Soon, going out into the shop to make a pair of Tiny Radials will be as therapeutic as spending big money on well... therapy!  I love taking something and relentlessly refining it within the point of diminishing returns.

Thanks for posting the pictures and feedback!

Steve




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/22/20 at 04:21:32





A teaser. I finished the final assembly of these little jewels. They are extra thick, 3/8 inch and wow are they heavy! The sound is smooth.

These will look amazing on the rotating platform... the monocoat finish is just wonderful. They feel like silk in your hands. From a technical standpoint you would think with the varying density of the wood these panels should have the least amount of resonance which means either one of two things depending on your preferences... either they will A) get louder before distortion is heard or B) they will sound better a normal listening levels. Of course they do both.  

So for now that we're well into over a dozen pair in different woods and thicknesses and it's no big surprise that the heavier a tiny radial is the better it's performance window gets.

Steve



 


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/22/20 at 04:54:10


As I listen to this exotic pair of Tiny Radials the 'sound of a tiny radial' beyond the insane imaging, becomes quite apparent... fast and smooth. The two adjectives often compete with one another in hifi, but in this case they are intertwined and make listening over many hours (with a good amplifier) a non-fatiguing and enjoyable experience. Not too many plastic desktop speakers can do that.  If you ad a subwoofer and get it dialed-in right, the experience can become hair raising as though you were setting in your listening room.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/22/20 at 05:29:14


So I added the subwoofer that cost $98 shown on the Tiny Radial page...  and turned it up good and strong.  Fun just got a lot funner... I made a video of it because it is just so outside what you would expect.  I'll post it when I get it processed (transcoded for different platforms).  I can tell you it sounds like you're in a 20 x 40 room with large bass horns...all this space and low end rumble.  Actually it's blowing my mind...  holy crap this is really viable!  It sounds like a big space and feels like one yet it is being reproduced in a small space...  I have to record this one too... hang on... yea,

I mean it is just such a blooming rush to look at these tiny speakers and hear a well integrated sub make them sound like they are 5 feet tall and weigh 800 pounds... which is exactly what I'm hearing -- which is just such a trip when your eyes say no it's impossible, but you're actually hearing it...

Listing to my library of electronic music is dumfounding.  I think this is where the speed of a 1.5 inch driver with some body can really dive into a heavy base line and come off smelling like a rose!  Thanks to Randy of Caintuck Audio for discovering this small and affordable subwoofer...  just a crazy combination...  I can see it now, you friends come over and you play your tiny radials and it just wrecks their mind to the point where almost 6 fuses blow and the dazed look in their eyes just say wtf just happened?

This is what Bose was going for but miserably failed at.  Sorry, it had to be spoken.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/23/20 at 06:28:27




https://decware.wistia.com/medias/bynxm1ayo1

You will have to wear headphones to hear the bass the way it was actually set for the recording...

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/23/20 at 06:55:50


Quote:
do the tiny radial cabinets have any damping material inside them?


Sorry, I didn't see this when you posted it... the answer is yes and no.  The cabinet itself does not, other than wood at varying thicknesses.  But the driver itself is a very high tech self-enclosed unit with nano-tech damping I suspect and a tuned passive radiator.  So the driver is actually a complete speaker cabinet.  The Tiny Radial cabinet just adds mass to it as well as creating a higher order box to boost the bass response.  

If we were using a regular mini 1.5 inch open back driver, the enclosure would be entirely damped just like a full-size speaker.

When I speak of nano-tech I am referring to a technology using lots of tiny spheres to trick the driver into thinking it's in a box many times it's actual size.  This is what makes bass possible from this micro-sized speaker.  I mean think of it, 75Hz or lower from a 1.5 inch driver, when tweeters are 1 inch and don't go below 3K without blowing themselves to smithereens... a modern miracle of computer modeling in acoustics.

Thanks for asking!

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Archie on 06/23/20 at 15:59:31

Those do sound great.  Was that with the sub?  Also, was the ZTPRE playing?  If so, I'd guess the speakers were putting vibration into it.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/23/20 at 16:56:28


Yes, that was with the $99 sub linked to on the Tiny Radial Page.  

The ZTPRE is not playing.  I am using the SE84CS hanging on the wall behind the speakers.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Archie on 06/23/20 at 18:11:53

Well, these are sounding fantastic with the sub!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by maddog07 on 06/24/20 at 17:11:32

is the Tiny Radial link on the main Decware website somewhere?  I can't find it.

nevermind... I found it at the beginning of the thread.

But I don't see any recently finished ones added to the page - ready for purchase.  Seems like there have been several completed?  Steve?

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/25/20 at 02:43:36

Yes, I have several more pair coming soon!

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Bottlehead on 06/27/20 at 03:01:30

Hey Steve,

Don't forget to email those of us who made requests on your Tiny Radial wishlist, if you decide to make those that we suggested.  

Thanks,
Randy

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/29/20 at 19:52:02

I just added four pair of Tiny Radials on the page this morning.  One of the woods, Purpleheart, was requested from the wish list and that person was emailed.  Please don't buy those if you're not him!

I have four more pair to add later this week as time allows.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Sarah on 06/29/20 at 20:09:18

https://www.decware.com/newsite/TinyRadialProject.html

PURPLEHEART IS SOLD & NATURAL CHERRY IS SOLD

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Sarah on 06/29/20 at 20:27:19

NATURAL SAPELE IS SOLD

We have 1 pair left and it's 1/4 SAWN WHITE OAK

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Sarah on 06/29/20 at 21:33:29

1/4 SAWN WHITE OAK IS SOLD

Steve will have 4 more pairs available soon. Thank you!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/30/20 at 04:47:15

Here is the most outrageous pair so far...  Purpleheart Terarind made from an expensive bowl blank I purchased on eBay...



I managed to get eight 3/8" thick panels out of this block of wood with virtually no scrap left over.  I don't even think there was even any sawdust left over!  It was a fun challenge to be sure.   I was able to get 7-3/4 of the 8 corners to appear as though both cabinets are made from solid blocks of wood.  I'm charging extra for that.  These are now on the Tiny Radial page btw.

Here is the final result.  Click on it to see the video containing both units.



https://decware.wistia.com/medias/hiecxasje8

Steve



Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Sarah on 06/30/20 at 16:08:04

The beautiful EXOTIC PURPLEHEART TERARIND IS SOLD

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/01/20 at 04:22:12


A couple 6-packs of Tiny Radials ready to ship...




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Bottlehead on 07/01/20 at 06:07:33

Hey Steve,

I love the look of the Purpleheart TR, and I can't wait to hear them. I'm just wondering what the beautiful wood is on the pair to the left of the Purpleheart Terarind. Is that some type of walnut?

Randy

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/01/20 at 16:41:14


Amazed you can tell any of those woods are beautiful from such a poorly lit picture...

Those are KD Afrormosia.  I have enough of that wood left to do a couple more pair.  It also seems like a fairly stable wood that machines fairly well.

One of the things I've been noticing as I make these with different woods is that the fantasy of creating the 1/4 inch panels ahead of time and then cutting them to shape and assembling them at a later date is not going to work with probably at least half of the wood types.

This is because the panels warp.  If a finished panel at 1/4 inch warps, it's junk unless you want to wrestle it back to flat during assembly.  This is why I start with 3/8" panels, they store better and if they do warp it's no problem to straighten them down to 5/16" or even 1/4" panels just before assembly.

I am enjoying the process of refining the process... right now my focus is on finish sanding techniques.  Tonight I did a pair in Sapele but tried the monocoat "chocolate" finishing oil.  They recommend 120GRIT because the oil bonds to only the ends of the fibers or something... anyway I took it to 220 instead of 320 or higher and this dark oil/stain showed up over 1 million swirl marks.  If I had a surface drum sander where the sanding paper floated on a cushion of air above the drum so it couldn't heat up... I could put all three grits on one drum and sand in one direction with the grain and get it perfectly flat like the jointer does, but with a candy ass finish and in about 90 seconds.  So I'm waiting for that to arrive.  I know what it feels like to be a Decware amplifier or speaker customer... waiting is so hard.  :-/



Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by DyersEve726 on 07/07/20 at 01:31:40

I really want a pair! If I make an entry on the wish list for "anything under $300", would that work? Haha. I love them all so I'd just like an email as soon as any new ones go on sale. Seems they go fast!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by DanG on 07/07/20 at 03:18:18

Great fun, I've been following this thread for months.

As a desktop speaker-

What is the best way to hook up tiny radials to a mac computer?

3.5 mm to ???

Thanks. - Dan




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/08/20 at 03:25:38

Hi Dan,

The best way would be to use an amplifier like the one you have, fed by a 3.5mm to stereo RCA cable.  If you want to improve it further, get an AudioQuest DragonFly USB stick DAC.  It has the same 3.5mm jack on it.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/08/20 at 06:11:27


I am in the process of adding more Tiny Radials to the page.  So far on the page there are 18 pair. 16 pair are sold. I have another 8 pair nearly done.  



Interestingly, I have just hit a total of 25 pair and I told myself that's probably how many it's going to take to get my system dialed-in, because that's what it takes for an amplifier. Believe it or not it's pretty easy to build a single amplifier (or speaker), but nearly improbable that you will be able to repeat it 25 times. This weeds out beginner's luck and flukes.  

With these Tiny Radials the process is really starting to get refined. If I stick with a single wood, and make say 10 pair in multi-day session, I can do it in 2.5 hours per speaker. But, if I do it in different woods, one at a time, I am averaging 4 to 5 hours per pair.  I'm OK with that right now, as it's just more challenging. One of the places where I really die on the time is the top diffraction lens. I'm getting easily an hour into a pair by the time I sand and paint it to an acceptable standard. So as was always the plan, to take all income from Tiny Radials and re-invest it in tools for my wood shop, tonight I decided to buy a 3D resin printer to make this particular part. I should be able to print one in black with the same satin finish as the paint I use but with built-in stand-offs that would also be black. Not having to make this part from wood would take a lot of the headache out of making these speakers.

I have already had a new friend from across the street who is talented with 3D printers do a quick prototype with a filament type printer just to see what would happen... shown below:



I still have to assemble this and listen to it. The driver is too big to push all the way down with any hope of ever removing it so that is why you still see a gap. The enclosure itself is surprisingly stiff and with some weight added to the plinth might sound good, who knows? When I get time I will of course try it and let you know. This is what gave me the idea to print the top lens for the speaker using a high resolution resin printer. They have a nearly mirror finish unlike these filament printers, and are a lot faster. I think it's the next step for the lens as I can also refine it in ways that I can't do with wood. So over time it could become even better.

Also, as I like to do with any new product, I have been just living with Tiny Radials and listening to them exclusively for about the past month. Since much of my listening is done while working, with the music being more of a background groove, that incidentally comes from a room next door giving it an indirect and non-invasive but at the same time almost more realistic sound...  that has just been replaced with these Tiny Radials here in the same room with me an less than 6 feet away on average. Adding the subwoofer from parts-express.com has created a viable replacement for background music while I work. I really lacks nothing and sounds similar enough to what I normally do that I'm not missing anything. This is really far better than I anticipated, because in this application the speakers have to perform well beyond what is needed on your desktop 16 inches from your face.

On another exciting note, I have been hunting down small blocks of super exotic woods from around the world, a block that is around 2 inches thick and 7 x 7 inches is enough to make a pair of Tiny Radials -- if you don't make any mistakes. You can spend between 75 and 250.00 for a small block of wood this size --usually from Thailand and other similar places.  Burls that only grow in the center of rare trees and too small to make anything large like a regular book-shelf speaker. So what an opportunity that Tiny Radials can be make out of these incredible woods. So I have also ordered several amazing blocks of wood, averaging $150 each, some more some slightly less, and am really looking forward to seeing how trick can we make a Tiny Radial!

At the same time I am looking forward to dedicating a weekend even now an then to seeing how many I can make from a single type of wood to load up the page with Tiny Radials that cost closer to my $250 target : )

So that's the update, and looking forward to pictures and comments from the buyers who will hopefully continue posting their impressions here in this thread.

Thanks,

Steve




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by DyersEve726 on 07/08/20 at 14:39:03

The Afromosia are all mine...sold! lol

Steve, if you end up 3D printing that lens, would that be something you could sell on your site separately? I would eventually like to build a set, but that lens looks beyond my capabilities as a wood worker.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/08/20 at 19:09:22


Yea, if I successfully print some to my liking, I'll put a few on the page.


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/10/20 at 04:23:29




Today the first of the super exotic burls arrived!  The SINDORA BURL.

From the seller:  


Quote:
Size: 1 7/8" X 7 1/2" X 7 3/4"

Sindora burl (sindora siamensis) Origin: Southeast Asia.

Sindora wood varies considerably in quality. This wood is strong and durable and not available in large quantities. It is highly prized for furniture, and cabinetmaking. The sapwood is cream-colored or pinkish. The heartwood is yellow when freshly cut but upon aging and exposure it becomes orange to light reddish or greenish and brown. Easy wood to work with...


I couldn't wait, so I cut the block in half and made the first of two Tiny Radial cabinets tonight. If this is "Easy wood to work with..." I'm in some really deep shit because none of the other burls that are on the way to me now claim to be easy wood to work with!

It took forever to do everything. I machined the half block into four 3/8" thick panels and they started to warp right away so after that tension was released I sanded them flat and down to 5/16" thickness.  I had to sand them because the planer chips out the burls.  It was a lot of sanding.

I used the table saw to cut the panels to shape. The router to create the mitre worked well, but I had to glue it together right away else the panels would continue to warp so.  As you can deduce, the size of the block means 8 panels, not 9 or 10 in case I ruin one...  And of course any mistake on even one panel means the entire block of wood is junk, $150 down the drain and crap if it didn't take a good four hours of my time to just make and assemble the four panels for one cabinet.  

This is the absolute most difficult piece of wood I've ever tried to work with... ignorance is such a tool as it drives one to constantly dig yourself out from the the mess of getting in over your head.  I know of no other tool with as much power, because without the tool, virtually none of these things would happen... including Decware for that matter.

Anyway, I couldn't cut the other four panels because they would have warped in the time it took me to make the first cabinet.  So we'll save that for the next round.  I'll put a picture of it on here tomorrow.

This block of wood was $138 plus tax and shipping... so you can see why I had to have a beer after making it through the first one without destroying it (and there were some close calls believe me.)

So I'm excited and somewhat stressed.  I have to make a second one without any mistakes to have a pair, or I have nothing.  Then I have to do it at least 6 more times with even more difficult woods...

One thing that did come out good was the finish sanding.  Since the grain of this burl is in tiny circles the same diameter as the orbit on my palm sander...

Steve




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/10/20 at 16:16:10



Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/10/20 at 16:28:23




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by JohnWatson on 07/10/20 at 17:05:33

I had an antique burl wood bowl years ago I sold for 2500.  It didn't look near as good and you couldn't hear anything out of it!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Jeff of Arabica on 07/10/20 at 17:10:57

😍😍😍😍

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 07/10/20 at 17:26:10

I see things staring back at me in that burl.

Stunning!

Damn I want some in Koa.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Bottlehead on 07/11/20 at 03:17:16

Here is my beautiful, burgeoning Purpleheart stash. (Also known as the best "Bang for the Buck" buys in audio today). I haven't had much time to play with the Tiny Radials yet, as I don't have my office set up yet, (since most of my office stuff is still in Seattle), but I did hook them up to my TV for a couple of hours. My first impression? It's nice to (finally)be able to hear dialogue. I'll post more as I get them set up better, and they break in.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/11/20 at 03:43:44

The shadows on the wall are priceless.  God bless you for posting it!

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/11/20 at 04:10:29


So, I did actually dive into the second half of this insanely hard brittle wood with enough bottled up stress to support a full size tree...

Resawing the panels to 3/8 went better than yesterday.  No drift due to a bandsaw blade with more rake.  Also no heat built up in the panels from the cut so less warping.  Everything is going great!

I got all four panels cut with an 1/8 inch veneer left over for some other project.  By coating the back side of the veneer immediately after cutting it, it remains usable with minimal warping.

The panels  as you can calculate from the size of the block of wood, are slightly oversized which is always a good thing with bitchy woods I would think.  

Interesting aside, the re-sawing of each panel went so well I really could have easily just run them through the drum sander and I remember having that thought...

To get each panel perfectly flat after they all warped I re-ran them through the jointer and then the planer.  Both are set to take only about 15 thousandths of an inch at a time...  Everything went well.

Then we get to the last of the four panels.

Despite the ultra shallowness this panel was still warping on the fly - remember it's a race after the panels are created to finish them and glue everything together... if you wait even an hour it's not going to happen with this wood.

I stick it in the planer and just as I said could happen in last nights posts, the unthinkable happens!

The panel EXPLODES in the planer!!!

Yes, it's over folks... this is how my behind the scenes life always goes too. ; )

Have a look at this!



That's a lot.  And just to add insult to injury as you can see it looks like it's probably only a 1/4 inch away from still being usable.

So when I had the thought earlier that I could actually forgo the planer and just use the drum sander until they are perfectly flat, I should have listened.

A lesson for sure.












Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 07/11/20 at 04:17:49

Hmm, I think that a tiny radial with a black backside would look fine......

Or perhaps with some sort of inlay in the black panel? A nice burl inlay???

I try to make the best of every situation.

Heck a nice polished piece of aluminum would look good, and I know a guy...

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/11/20 at 04:26:05


It gets better...  stuff like this makes you really ponder if life as we perceive it is not what is actually going on.  

For example, just as WE watch videos for entertainment, perhaps other higher density beings actually just watch us. We are their TV.  

Because the definition of human nature is it's unpredictability these beings probably entertain themselves betting on the outcomes of the particular episode of human unconsciousness they are watching.

In my case, some of the higher density individuals with money on the outcome must have intervened when the shit started to hit the fan inside the planer.

I mean seriously, what are the odds of this.  One side is longer than the other and on the longest side it is just exactly enough.



Here is a panel of some other wood to show the size that I need from the burl to make this happen. Ponder this for a bit. It is literally within 1,000th of an inch of what I have to have to make a perfect pair.

And it gets even better still because I was able to shape the panels and run all 4 panels (8 edges) through my router at an ultra slow speed to get the miters and internal shapes without any further outbursts...

Kinda reads like a one of those space movies when the ship is damaged and you're pretty sure we're all going to die instead of make it home safely.

;D




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/11/20 at 04:43:16


So here's to a safe landing and the spontaneity of the universe!



A perfect pair without flaws.

Just crazy.  Hehe, do you know how much they charge for a ball point pen made out of this shit?

This is what I love about these Tiny Radials... they can be made from solid hardwood, the grain is all one direction only. No top, no bottom. (Well, actually with this burl that's not true but the pyramidal shape makes it impossible to warp once it's assembled.)

They can be made from the most exotic woods that aren't big enough to even make a bookshelf speaker let alone a large floor-standing speaker. That makes it really special since the sound of these is legitimate. I am finding that using them with a powered subwoofer is taking them to a way higher level and making it possible to fill a larger space with meaty background music that has great speed, tone, smoothness and imaging.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/11/20 at 05:33:55


Back to my earlier comments about higher density beings...  it's been my experience as you know that IF something was actually influenced or "touched" by the "audio Gods" there is always a clear sign for those who look for it.  If you've read my posts on this forum over the years you know of several examples of this.

So you might think that the fact that damage was within a thousandth of an inch of disaster to be a pretty plausible sign in and of itself but at the same time we can all write it off as unbelievable luck. I am never so quick to do so however so I look at it closely. Kind of in the spirit of not looking a gift horse in the mouth especially one with the patients to teach if there is any further communications left, I plan to find it.

So here is what I found.  This is a map of my state, Illinois, super imposed on top of the damaged ship.



If you overlap the borders and draw a horizontal line from the top right edge of the panel and another from the right vertical edge of the panel, they intersect at my location in Peoria.

Ponder that ; )




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Bottlehead on 07/11/20 at 06:43:23

Some stuff can't be made up. Spooky.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Archie on 07/11/20 at 18:17:47

LOL, humans are pattern finders/recognizers.  We also don't keep track of the limitless times when the "stars" don't align.   8-)

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/12/20 at 02:57:24



Some nice quiet time in the shop today.


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/12/20 at 03:19:30




Pyinma burl (Lagerstroemia Calyculata) AKA = Asian satinwood burl, crepe Myrtle wood burl.  Origin: Southeast Asia

I wonder what's going to happen with this one?



The last one as you might have guessed was a one time experience.  I won't be making anything from that again but it did serve a purpose of testing the process.


Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 07/12/20 at 03:24:47

It looks like fire!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/16/20 at 03:28:24


Wait until you see a good photograph of it on a Tiny Radial...  it's just sick. I have never seen a wood like this. The pathetic picture I posted from eBay definitely doesn't come even close to what we're really getting here!  

The previous burl I tried after being sealed inside and out have already in less than a week cracked around every burl. Tonight I re-sanded them flat again and shifted to linseed oil so the wood can drink. Monocoat gives the wood nothing. This wood needs lots of oil.  Also, both of these burls require more sheen than monocoat to really show off their beauty.

I can't wait to show the results of both here when they are done!  It's going to totally blow your mind : )

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Jeff of Arabica on 07/16/20 at 03:43:49

These American Walnut Crotchwood works of art landed on my doorstep today.  So beautiful, you can't help yourself from saying "Wow" backwards!   :o

Having them in my hands was like acid dripping in my stomach so I just had to hook them up right away.  Brought over my ZMA from the other system.  Damn!  Not broken in yet... playing in a fairly large room with 18 foot ceilings...  Truly remarkable!  Really is hard to believe that the sound I am hearing is emitting from such a diminutive package.  Just look at this wood!!!








Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/18/20 at 04:45:27

Jeff,

Those are some killer pics of the Tiny Radials!

BTW congrats on the Tannoys... that has to be fun!  Thanks for posting the pics - really nice room!

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Jeff of Arabica on 07/18/20 at 06:36:12

Thanks Steve!

The Tannoy's are special!   That said, I took those pictures for the primary purpose of sending them to my two very near and dear to my heart, "audio buddies."  Reason being is, they are why I decided to purchase the Westminsters.  I knew they would appreciate what you have created in these Tiny Radials.  After sending them some pics and a video clip of the sound, they both reached out to me about how to purchase a set of these.  I have to say that both of these guys are well seasoned and have rolled a lot of gear over the years.  They both are familiar with Decware, respect you and the brand, but have not yet dipped their toes.  That said, they BOTH want a pair of these radials!  Knowing their audio journey, that is a very huge compliment to Decware.  

Here is the video clip I sent them.  Mind you, this is merely my iPhone recording a video clip.  That said, you can't deny the "special sauce" these Tiny Radials are capable of producing!  And yes, it is the Tiny Radials (driven by the Decware Zen Mystery Amp) playing in this video, not the Tannoy's!  This is a rather large room with 18 foot ceilings. 

https://tinyurl.com/y579updn

So, I have been tasked with snatching up two sets of these amazing little wonders as soon as they come available.  One standard wood, and the second set standard or exotic.  

Cheers!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/19/20 at 00:55:11


The link is not working : )


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Jeff of Arabica on 07/19/20 at 01:49:53

Damn Vimeo!  Ok, Switched hosting services and got it back online.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/19/20 at 05:49:16


Jeff, saw the video on the new place... Wistia.  I also use Wistia for all Decware videos, probably 10 years and running so far.  

Yes, the video is great.  These are fun speakers.  Each wood sounds a little different.

Presently I am experimenting with 3D printing a lens using a resin printer and by keeping the thickness of the walls of the part 1.8 mm with a honeycomb inside that, the entire lens weighs in at 28 grams.  

This compared to the wood lens that weighs around 6 grams.  The super heavy resin lens is the most inert object I have ever held in my hand.  It is really unbelievable.  This kind of mass and vibration control could take things up to a level where fun becomes a little more serious.  

When I get through the long learning curve on the programming of this lens and subsequent print attempts, we can compare the sound and see what is happening.  My guess is that using the same hollow geometry and extra thick solid resin walls could create a tiny radial enclosure that was so far beyond the performance of wood that the difference in sound would become noticeable to even my cat.

The goal here, before I got so completely side tracked, was to print the lens with the stand offs attached in black with a resolution that would not require sanding or finishing.  Just print, and use.  Tonights prototype only cost about a $1 in resin and took probably an hour to print which would further reduce the time it takes to make sand seal and paint the lenses for these speakers.  

I can tell immediately from the insane weight and inert quality of this lens that this concept is going to be pursued to an end result. All this from a $350 printer!  Once you spend a couple grand on one things get really good, a lot bigger and 10 times faster.

From what I just experienced tonight, if I were a large hi-end speaker manufacture with market share, I would invest in a 3D printer that could do a 4 foot loudspeaker out of resin. You could create absolute 100 fold more complicated internal enclosure designs and control panel resonance at every point.  Even a Tiny Radial design could be turned into a high order transmission line lowering the bass even further.  


I think a lot of the inertness comes from the part being built from layers, each one cured and then another one applied on top of it.  The lens was 1500 layers thick.  

Once I quit printing inspiring duds and get to a final product I will certainly post some pictures.  

Leaning curves... I get so frustrated when I have to learn new software wanting it to happen in 30 minutes and we all know it's going to take more like 30 days.  It's like my consciousness is strangulated by my brain because it's to damn slow.  Figuring something new out (software from some other demented mind) is like growing grass because it's not how I would do it.  

Usually a couple hours of mumbling, slapping my forehead, and a few stern scoldings to the imaginary buttholes that wrote this... well you get this idea, and then I have figured out enough to rush through it and shoot myself in the foot over and over until I can't walk.

Steve






Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/19/20 at 06:02:40


I just realized that this lens is such a resonance sink, that once it is glued (chemically welded) to the face of the driver (baffle), it will remove vibration from the driver baffle at the upper midrange frequencies giving an even cleaner sound.

God help me -- I just realized with 4K resolution resin printing you could 3D print a speaker cone that simply redefined the absence of modal resonances, not to mention stiffness. Having both rarely happens.

Damn, I knew this was going to happen.






Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Jeff of Arabica on 07/19/20 at 06:30:19


Quote:
God help me -- I just realized with 4K resolution resin printing you could 3D print a speaker cone that simply redefined the absence of modal resonances, not to mention stiffness. Having both rarely happens.


You've definitely got my attention! From the speakers I have owned, to what I have read/learned, this element of speaker design is ripe for innovation.  A resin-based, 3D printed cone, would certainly qualify as a true innovation.  Excited and eager to see what you can develop.  

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/19/20 at 06:34:21

Jeff,

If you send me that video to Zen at Decware.com I'll add it to the collection!  

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Jeff of Arabica on 07/19/20 at 07:45:16

Just sent!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by HockessinKid on 07/19/20 at 11:31:39

Steve,

I've been following this thread closely. You continue to strive to bring your customers amazing innovations and an audio experience beyond measure.

The tiny radial project clearly demonstrates your dedication to continued product development and quality. While the wood versions are beautiful, the 3D resin based panel versions hold significant potential. A dense, honeycomb panel that controls resonance will allow drivers to perform as they were intended. Plus, I think that once you work out production kinks, it will easier to build these speakers and allow you to scale up to larger designs, if you wish .

Congratulations on the progress to date. You are clearly deserving of an audio innovation award, as well as the collective appreciation of us all. Many thanks for all your striving!

HK

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 07/19/20 at 15:29:43

I have to laugh because a few years back Zygi and I had a conversation that when Steve got interested in 3D printing, all bets were off.
Steve has the sort of inquisitive mind that 3D printing lights up with it's possibility.

If you can draw it, you can make it, within the limits of the machine of course.
But there are also ways to work around the size limitations of small machines by thinking about what you are making as if it were a large 3D jigsaw puzzle that just needs to be fitted and bonded together.
Gotta think way outside of the box when you want to get creative.

The thinner the layer the more resolution, but the more time to print. Manufacturing is always a balance between what you want to do and what you can afford to do.

Additive manufacturing is a important part of the future, or at least it looks like it at this time.
I've seen it go in fits and starts over the last 20 or so years. Companies seem to get enthused in it then for whatever reason they seem to back off and sit on the technology for a time.

It would be interesting to see some speakers with all kinds of wave guides and expansion chambers incorporated into their design printed out. Make the sound waves dictate the design, not letting the "manufacturability " of the part dictate the final shape.

The hard part is letting your mind free up enough to take advantage of the new sets of tools at your fingertips, to stop thinking of how to build something from the materials normally at hand (sheet stock and lumber) and then design something from what the sound waves actually need for best performance.

Why do speakers have to look like they do? I assume that the shape is once again more dictated by the materials at hand than by actual design parameters.

Free your mind and your ass will follow!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Jeff of Arabica on 07/19/20 at 16:20:55


Quote:
Why do speakers have to look like they do? I assume that the shape is once again more dictated by the materials at hand than by actual design parameters.



Great post, and very good point!   It immediately reminded me of my Dukane Ionovac super tweeters.  They are plasma speakers, so they definitely don't look or perform like traditional drivers.  This plasma "driver" is essentially weightless and has no moving parts, so mechanical inertia and resonances are minimized. The sound is created by a plasma emitted from the end of a small, pointed electrode inside a quarts chamber - basically just RF energy that compresses and rarefies the air around it to create sound waves. That glowing light in the pictures below is the driver.  I have not heard a better super tweeter.   I have mine crossed at 7500Hz and it goes well into the supersonic range.  Anyway, these were manufactured in the 50's!!   I feel like the audio industry is overdue for some true innovation in speaker driver technology.  












Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by lazb on 07/19/20 at 19:38:15

Aptly put, Donnie! Interesting possibilities and times ahead.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/20/20 at 02:22:33


Five years ago I found this video of a 3D printed concrete castle, and am still mesmerized by it.  To get everything dialed-in to make it actually work from scratch is saying something.  Then to watch print without any errors would probably be too much to deal with.  Simply inspirational.  

https://youtu.be/DQ5Elbvvr1M


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Tubecan on 07/20/20 at 18:31:48

I’v been listening to my ‘beautiful’ #16 tinnies for 3 days now,when they arrived I unpacked and placed atop a pair of omegas,sat down and thought there’s something wrong with the sound,got up and walked over to the biggest soundstage I ever walked into...just plain silly huge!..Love the wood!These are now 2 feet on either side of my brain and I might be tempted on some songs to and I quote ‘may be the best sound I ever had in my room’


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/21/20 at 04:59:19


This is really I think what excites me about Tiny Radials... they accurately demonstrate how our larger Radial speakers (model ERRx) work and if you could actually hear both in the same room, the frequency balance is also the same other than the low bass.  ERRx go an octave lower.

A great way to show people the concept who would otherwise never hear it, and I think an unbeatable desktop / computer speaker because you get a highly accurate 3D soundstage no matter what.

Thanks for the posting your feedback!  


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Dominick on 07/21/20 at 14:39:35

Steve I completely agree.  For someone who has not had the pleasure of experiencing the radial sound, the Tiny Radials are the perfect gateway.  I absolutely love my Err’’s....mine were built just before you introduced ERRx.   I have an open floor plan and a fairly large space.  This is where the radials truly sing.  You can get that concert hall sound without selecting the fake DSP feature on a solid state A/V amp.

Dom






Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/23/20 at 03:05:15


So far the 3D printing learning curve has been tedious.  41,292 ways to fail before you even get to the printer... and then there's that.

Anyway after over 9 failed prints this is the support structure that worked and subsequent print aka my first usable print.





So despite wanting to give up several times and blow something up at least once or twice, I am making progress.

Steve




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Jeff of Arabica on 07/23/20 at 03:07:40

Godspeed!  Your Decware fan base undoubtedly appreciates your restraint and perseverance.  

And that pieces looks GREAT!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/25/20 at 03:31:27



Just an update on these...  a few days after this picture was taken every single burl split and the surface of the wood became wavy despite being sealed.  I re-sanded it flat (.035 to get it flat) and soaked it in linseed oil. I am now in the process of the third sanding to get the surfaces flat again.  This is sealing the entire thing in clear lacquer between each session, yet it still moves. If you wanted to destroy a new wood worker's ego, just send him a block of this stuff.

This reminds me of how I learned to build amplifiers that I liked... learn everything not to do first.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by 840wolf on 07/25/20 at 15:20:50

Hi Steve, new member here, Wolf, eagerly awaiting my orders  :), and have been following this thread with interest. I'm not a wood worker per say, but I had a thought regarding the Burlwood, I was wondering if you laminated the inside of the pieces with some kind of veneer,just shy of your braces, if that wouldn't give it a structural strength to help stop warping?

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/26/20 at 01:06:59

Hi Wolf,

Welcome to the forum!  

The burl in the wood is contracting, the surrounding wood is not, it makes the surface wavy - hard to get mirror flat.  If I can't get an acceptable mirror gloss on it, I will sand it down and hand oil it, no worries.  Besides, I won't be using that particular wood ever again anyway.


Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/26/20 at 01:12:59


I have been printing duds all day today to see if I can lessen the supports on the 3D printed part, and then I decided to just forget the supports completely.  I only used them to tilt the part so it would fit the printer's build platform.

By shrinking the lens from 68 to 66 mm I can print it flat in less than one hour.  




Here is the result of that:



Now we're getting somewhere!

:)

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 07/26/20 at 02:02:48

Steve,
Do you have enough Z travel to nest one on top of the other?
It would be more efficient that way.
Perhaps even 4 at a time?

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Bottlehead on 07/26/20 at 02:56:06

Lookin' good, Steve. Love the continuing innovation. Here's a pic of my cobbled-together "office". I'm trying not to buy what I already have stored in Seattle, hence the $20 "desktop" door slug. Anyway, I had heard some of you talk about being in the middle of the soundstage, but I had never experienced it to this degree. Pretty damn cool, Steve. And I got a little surprise when I opened one of my mystery boxes to discover that one of my  small-but-mighty powered subs made it down here. A Carver Sunfire True Subwoofer Junior - a 9" cube of pure thump. Really fills in the bottom nicely. As you can see, I have an excellent source, dac, cables and speakers. The pre and the amp...well, I have better stuff coming, but for now, they're acceptable.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Bottlehead on 07/26/20 at 03:01:36

I should also mention that, with up facing drivers (especially here in dusty old Tucson), some sort of prophylactic is in order. So, here's my solution. Some of the more observant among you might notice the resemblance to common, garden-variety sandwich bags. But I assure you that these are actually top-of-the-line, audiophile-grade speaker condoms. You saw 'em here first.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by funch on 07/26/20 at 04:40:59

Is that what you call practicing safe stereo?  

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Bottlehead on 07/26/20 at 20:24:34

A guy can't be too careful these days.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/28/20 at 04:22:20


My centering jig for the new 3D printed resin lens.  Any resemblance to a vacuum tube is purely coincidental  :-?



This will be the first pair to boast the new lens.  This is the PYINMA burl pair getting finished up tonight.  They have 50 coats of lacquer and have been rubbed out to 3500.   I'll have more pics of these soon.  The price was $679 for the pair with the rubbed out piano finish. I purchased them from myself.

I was able to spray a nearly perfect finish with only a few coats that was 95% as good and had I just stopped there the price for these would have been $499.

I have more of the wood, so I will try to make another pair and see if this was just luck, or can it be repeated : )

-Steve





Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/28/20 at 04:23:25





Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/29/20 at 04:35:26


Interesting observation...  I replaced the speaker cables, a thinner gauge version of the ZSTYX, with some test leads that were nice and flexible, something the ZSTYX are not, especially when they are only 1 meter long as is the case here.  So the test leads were the same length.

To put this in context, the test leads are copper stranded, super thin strands in a fat silicon jacket.  The smaller version of the ZSTYX is first of all about 10 gauge rather than 18 gauge like the test leads.  Also it is silver coated copper and the jacket is Teflon.

Anyway, for about well, all day, I have been listening to these speakers waiting for them to sound good.  How can something that looks this good sound bad?  The wood was super light compared to normal exotics, and maybe it just sucks?  I kept waiting, and waiting... why is it so lean, so dry, to etched, so mid-fi?

A sense of dread started to build as I began to accept something is actually wrong here... these really don't sound good.  This is the first pair that I didn't like.

Then I remembered the speaker wire... test leads... that has to be the problem.  SO I put back the good ZSTYX 10 AWG clones (ZSTYX are 8 AWG about twice as thick) and bang, there we are.  The density is back.  The liquidity is back.  The dryness is gone.  The image is 3 times the size.  Not even the same speaker.  Seriously.  

So this is a reality check.  Since it is the only speaker wire I ever use (for a reason) it is all too easy to forget how the speakers might sound in another system without good speaker wire.

I can tell you that using the test leads, which are similar to regular cheap speaker cable, made these speakers sound like a con job.  Seriously.  It's scary.  Don't treat Tiny Radials like toys.  That is the lesson.  

I have enjoyed the sound more in the last hour since I changed the wire, than I have in the past 24 hours with the wrong cables.

Learn from my mistakes.  No doubt someone with Tiny Radials hasn't heard them yet.  The difference was on a scale of 1 to 10 like comparing a 4 to an 8.5

Of course the EXACT same thing happens in the listening room with big speakers.  I believe cables are as important as the speakers themselves, in fact they are probably the biggest choke point in audiophile's homes world wide so far as I can see.

It's another discussion better placed elsewhere, but surface it to say, good speaker cables are not an option.  Zip cord is not acceptable.  In fact most speaker cables are not acceptable.  You have to go outside the playground to find the right stuff.  Silver plated copper, heavy gauge, Teflon jacket.  Simple. Get one wire for each polarity.  

I've said it over 60,000 times so far, and that is that you only hear your system rise to the weakest link in the chain.  In the hi-resolution work of single-end triodes with zero feedback, you can't and don't want to use regular speaker wire.  It is a filter.  You don't want a filter.


Here's a closing hypothetical example...  Person buys a Decware amplifier, a great DAC, perhaps even a power conditioner, really awesome speakers, and left over speaker cables from a mainstream hifi system.  Left wanting, he sends the amp back in for anniversary mods.  After getting it back , he hears a 10% improvement and is happy.   Now, had he been running proper speaker cable, the improvement would have been in this case 40%.  That means that with the right cable he was 30% ahead of where he ended up after spending money on anniversary mods.  So following this line of thought a bit further, had he had the right cables to begin with, he would have been 40% better than he was with the wrong cables, and then after doing the anniversary mods his money would have bought him another 40% improvement over where he was, totaling 80%, not 10%.

The hardest part of hi-end audio is accepting and identifying the weak links in the chain. But the rewards of success are always well worth the extra effort.

---

As a followup, now having several hours back with the good cables, the sound is back to sounding like it is coming from the speakers in the listening room.  I've talked about this before.  It has already happened three times in the past hour that I have been fooled into thinking I was listening to the main system in the other room, not Tiny Radials in this room!  With the test leads for speaker wire, the sound was coming from the speakers, and there was ZERO chance of being fooled into thinking the sound was coming from the other room.  ZERO.  The density and the imaging are essential giveaways.  

This really worries me... I might have to get on a mission about ZSTYX.  I think it might be time to offer them in 10 AWG at probably half the price (just guessing) with 90% the performance...  should have done this years ago.  

Have a great night!

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/29/20 at 05:07:16


Before I got sidetracked by hearing my stereo go from hi-end to mid-fi and back to hi-end, let me get back to this crazy wood...

After I made this Pyinma burl (Lagerstroemia Calyculata) AKA = Asian satinwood burl, crepe Myrtle wood burl from Southeast Asia pair of Tiny Radials, I used the Rubio Monocoat finish, it was lovely no doubt, but wood like this really needs a deep mirror gloss to appreciate what it really has to offer.  I guess my point is that the wood made me do it. Someone who was a pro at it, would have certainly got perfect results without 50 coats, but after sanding through the finish in just one tiny spot more than several times, I just decided to make it impossible to sand through it. This stacked on lots and lots of hours.  

As part of the design exploration, this is so far the most exotic and most expensive I can foresee a pair of Tiny Radials.  Put another way, it sets the highpoint.  Myself, if I had heard a pair in person and were only talking a few hundred bucks to get a pair that looked and felt like this, I would probably do it.

With enough of this wood to do two more pair, I am anxious to see if I can get a similar finish in around 5 coats and then polished out to the same shine.  That will knock off a couple hundred bucks from the price and be almost undetectable in looks if all goes well.



https://decware.wistia.com/medias/qm1op6ln9e

Check out this video of just one of the pair...  If you set outside in the sun and hold one of these in your hand the sky suddenly becomes boring.

I did this video in full 1080P High Def. because the wood made me.

There will be more, on the page, for sale in the future, don't worry.

Steve




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 07/29/20 at 13:34:35

TR022 are the ultimate going "ape shit" crazy on the finish!

If it is worth doing, it is worth overdoing!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Tubecan on 07/29/20 at 16:05:03

Tick,tick,tick...WTF!...I hear a faint ticking in my tiny radials..in the soundstage..there’s a ticking clock..I’m thinking a bomb!for 2 hours I’m thinking I’m loosing it...I change speakers,ticking stops,I get out my omegas,no ticking,linn,naim amps n speakers,quiet,no ticking,magnepans,no ticking,place these gorgeous tiny shits back and there’s the ticking,so I’m thinking there’s dsp in them there tinnies.My bluesound was ticking through the speakers,placed well away from the amp and ticking stopped.Resolution.



Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/04/20 at 00:45:52


Regarding the Tiny Radial Wish List...  

I have close to 30 on that list so far, and no worries, until everyone on the list gets contacted, there is no danger of being overlooked.




Last week I put these two pair on the page fairly late in the evening and before I could post about them, or even email the relevant people on the list, they were sold.  It took less than an hour for them to be discovered and purchased.





Today I posted two more pair and again both sold before I could walk up stairs to my email program and contact those relevant people on the list.  People are stalking the Tiny Radial page.  I may never get to add the page to our main site menu. ; )




Don't worry, I'll keep trying : )





Number 22 (not pictured here) and 23 were the first to have the 3D printed lens.  You can always tell a 3D printed lens because the stand-offs are black instead of white.

You can see all of these on the Tiny Radial page:  https://www.decware.com/newsite/TinyRadialProject.html

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by morp on 08/04/20 at 06:21:19

Boy am I late to this thread! I'll answer the original query first:
1) I listened to them from Taboo balanced -> HE1000v2

2) I'd pay $400-500

To me, they're a very nice, handmade, wood computer speaker that doesn't compromise on sound like all other computer speakers. Marketed that way, to complete a gaming/music/music setup where limited run keyboards can cost $4-500, these will have a strong appeal.

Steve, how much power do they need for a bedroom/office sized room? No need for them to play loud, but I wouldn't want to compromise on any part of the range at mid-volume. Would the Taboo be enough? What about my CSP2+, or handful of other semi-portable solid state headphone amps?

What would complete the appeal would be to be able to drive them from something pocket sized, or small tablet sized. At that point, they're a true tiny desktop speaker solution when space/price is at a premium.

Thanks,
Richard

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Sarah on 08/04/20 at 17:33:12

BLACK AFRICAN SAPELE is SOLD

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by khedspeth on 08/04/20 at 17:39:30

Hi to the group, this is Kevin.  Just purchased the red sapele TR's.  I can't take credit for stalking, I just happen to be on Facebook when they were posted there and jumped over.   However, stalking the page does seem like a good idea!  Excited to receive them especially after trying to build a pair for myself from the plans...didn't work out too well.  I have a Zen on order but will run them on a PS Audio Sprout while I wait.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/04/20 at 18:02:05


We recommend between 2 and 5 watts for the tiny radials in most cases.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/04/20 at 18:04:54

khedspeth,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for posting!  I look forward to your impressions with both amps!

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Bottlehead on 08/05/20 at 08:34:59

Just a little update now that I have around 30 - 40 or so hours on my TRs. They have just disappeared. That's the best way that I can describe it. Maybe Steve should call them the Decware Houdinis. Even though they are 18 inches on either side of my head, you would swear that the dialogue is coming out of the tv. (Except that the sound is WAY clearer). For the money, this is right up there with the Betsys in bang for the buck.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Tubecan on 08/07/20 at 16:50:12

I went from 18’ all the way to 18 feet..I have one in the dining room and one radial in the family room...they have disappeared,crazy imaging,classical,jazz,piano,guitar,simply incredible.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Bottlehead on 08/08/20 at 09:20:27

Tube,

I don't really have that much space to play around with in my office setup, but I'm thinking that I might try widening them out (to the extent that I can) just as an experiment. These last few years I've become so taken with the open baffle sound that I haven't really considered Steve's bigger radials.  These TRs make me think that I might want to take another look in that direction. Anybody with TRs who also has the bigger radials want to chime in with a comparison?

Randy

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Nick324 on 08/08/20 at 19:53:34

It's been a few weeks and I am enjoying my TR's very much. I had been using them with a Line Magnetic 218ia mini but wanted to see what a "better" SET amp would do so I went and picked up a well used Rachel.  IMO, these speakers have limitations and sound better to me with the "softer" genre's rather than more modern music. Even though my particular pair are dense and a bit heavier (s/n#004 see early posts by Steve) they still "bounce" and "walk" when I play more "lively" music and push the volume. They do a good job filling a small 12 x 14 office and have a nice bottom end despite the tiny 1.5" drivers, (great job on the design).

I hope to get a second pair eventually w/ the nicer binding posts, the heavier top piece and a fancy/rare/exotic wood with some nice shine and depth to it. I'm happy to let you guys fight over them for now, I can wait, and have no desire to stalk the page, I'm enjoying "watching" Steve master these little buggers one week at a time.

I put them head to head w/ my Falcon LS3/5A's and the truth is the Falcon's sound cleaner, richer, more natural with better Timbre, detail and depth to me, but NOT so much better that I would feel lacking or deprived with only the Tiny Radials as my daily drivers. The TR's are also NOT as amp picky as the Falcon's and at a savings of over $2k in comparison allow you plenty of amplifier and source choices if you were to build a nice small room set-up based on the Tiny Radials. They take well to a subwoofer and I have found them extremely easy to integrate with even an inexpensive sub. I prefer mine spaced about 5' apart and all that's left is for me to figure out some kind of isolating base for them to keep the vibrations off my desk. I'm really loving these and look forward to my second set a bit later on in the year. Good health to you Steve, stay well please and keeping making such awesome stuff for us.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/10/20 at 16:49:33


The last of the three burls showed up recently...



Another wood that will never be used again.  

This block (eBay picture above) cost $150. Sadly it was a wedge shape where one end was 1/4 higher than the other. The advertised measurement was from the thicker side. That 1/4 inch was my blade width x 7. Without that, there was no way to make 8 panels of 3/8 inch or even 1/4 inch. By now I already know that's a huge issue because the wood is going to warp. To get a finished 1/4 inch panel I almost have to start with 3/8.

Anyway, I sliced it into 9 panels that ended up at 1/8 inch and glued those to some Sapele panels. They warped anyway. After assembly and more flattening, I managed to get a perfect Tiny Radial. Then I started sanding it on a new sander and the belt spooled off the drum and shot the Tiny Radial out of my hand through the air and into the wall where it split into two halves as it bounced across the floor.



After glueing and clamping it back together I came back after it dried to find a trapezoid instead of a square. I broke it apart and fixed it again. Success.

3 days later the perfectly square Tiny Radial warped into a trapezoid again. You don't know how close it came to becoming firewood at that moment.

I warped it back and braced it internally so it can't ever happen again. The second Tiny Radial went together without any real issues because I purchased a new tool for my shop to deal with warpage after a board is freshly cut. It's called a spray bottle full of water. Using it I was able to un-warp all four panels of Tiny Radial #2 and after a 24 hour press they were flat as glass.

So at this point they are in finishing. Now I will have two pair of Tiny Radials made of rare exotic burls that are too expensive to sell because each pair has about 12 hours in it.  Time to move away from the burls and back into nice figured hardwoods.


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by morp on 08/10/20 at 18:28:05

Wow Steve, much respect for your restraint, and then the perseverance to continue to figure out solutions to make them workable TR. Just wow. They would have become firewood for me for sure, though maybe not because it's currently summer.. :)

I think I requested a Burl or two! Hopefully this isn't one of mine causing you such aggravation.

Richard

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by JohnWatson on 08/10/20 at 19:47:29

I bought a pair of these speakers based on cute value and my trust in Steves opinions.  I tried hooking them up on my computer desk above my head and they just didn't cut it there...I was hearing too much of the base and not enough out of the top.  I knew it wasn't a good setup but I got a little nervous about where to use them.  Well...I just got a new DAP and decided to try it as a source, ran it to a Bifrost and into a Mini Torri and put the speakers behind my monitor and holy heck, the sound just kicks my Audio engine powered speakers to the curb.  Once again, Steve keep up the good work as frustrating as it can be!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/11/20 at 15:56:28

Tubecan, Bottlehead, JohnWatson & Nick324  thank you for posting your results!  It really helps to learn how each pair of these is getting used.

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by khedspeth on 08/11/20 at 17:48:32

Mine are on the way.  Very eager to get them in and give them a listen.  To pass the time while waiting, I have started 3D printing some designs.  I tried to make a set to Steve's plans but my skills as a woodworker just are not there.  In no way will the 3D printed enclosures compare to Steve's TR's in beauty or sound but I am curious what is possible.  May even try epoxy fill some of the 3D printed components to improve the sound.  Report on the TR's when I get them set up.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/12/20 at 02:42:56

khedspeth welcome to the forums!  Since you bring up 3D printing, now is a good time to mention that I have been thinking of hosting a contest to see who can 3D print the coolest Tiny Radials and wondering if a $500 prize to the winner is any kind of real incentive, and wondering if there is a particular place to announce such a thing.  I am sure there are some great artists out there who can stun us all.  Besides the prize money we would name the design after the artist.  Do you think something like that would fly?

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/12/20 at 03:56:52


On a less frustrating note, tonight I built another (my third) pair of Exotic Afromosia Tiny Radials.

This pair was made after the addition of a new sander and a few other tweaks in the shop. Since this project started my attention has really been on the process, and tonight the process felt perfect. It was a real joy to run through each step of construction and have everything come out so well it almost assembles itself.  So I now look forward to making many more and appreciate everyones patients who has been waiting for more to show up on the page.  

On a similar note, the new sander (Flat-Master) is a game changer on finishing because if you start with a glass flat panel when you varnish, then sand each coat perfectly flat, you will never sand through the finish on the edges, corners, or anywhere else. This is going to make it possible to do high gloss finishes on those woods that demand it, without a lot of stress.  For example, I could if I wanted to probably get the same results in 5 coats that took 50 coats before...  

Because only the sanding grit contacts the wood, not paper, all wood densities, i.e. sapwood, knots and everything in-between sand to the exact same flatness which is impossible by hand, or with a belt or conventional drum sander, or any other method.  My extremely good orbital sander is now retired.

Another thing about this amazing sander, it will sand varnish, glue, paint, whatever... and NEVER have even a trace of it stick to the paper.  In fact the other day it totally blew my mind when each side of a Tiny Radial felt refrigerated after sanding.  Literally, the 3 sides in contact with my hand were warm and as I rotated each side and sanded it, it then become cool to the touch.  Mind blowing really.

So with this technology it means when I finish a Tiny Radial and just don't like it... I can just sand it off and do it again.  Less than 5 minutes, same small piece of sandpaper I have been using for the past several weeks... hell in sandpaper costs alone it will pay for itself in less than a year.

Plus there is no real sound... no dust, no vibration, no changing pads all the time, it's just incredible frankly. Get this... the anti-static drum and air cushion under the paper keep sawdust from sticking to paper and it just falls off the drum into a tray.  You don't even need a vacuum.  No noise, no dust, no way to burn it, no clogging the paper, no changing the paper, it's like magic.  Reminds me of our amplifiers. ; )

I guess it's in my blood now...  When you build a biblical number Zen Triode Amplifiers over 25 years, the same amp, it becomes about constantly refining the process to create a better product which becomes more challenging and satisfying than the amplifier design itself.

So, it's starting to get fun now...  and the fact that they have been so well received is of course what is driving this forward. It is very satisfying to be able to make something that everyone can afford... and likes!  It get's back to the roots of Decware when 20 years ago you could buy a Zen Triode amplifier for the price of a deluxe Tiny Radial today!  I can see why Randy is so happy making Betsy Baffles.  He was the inspiration and partial pattern for the Tiny Radial project... And guess what... he can't build enough of those either!

Happy listening!

Steve



Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/12/20 at 04:50:43









Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Bottlehead on 08/12/20 at 07:56:58

Steve,

I love the idea of a Tiny Radial 3-D printing contest. Can't wait to see what some of the more creative among us will come up with. Might be just the challenge needed to get Donnie going on 3-D printing. Donnie?

Randy

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by khedspeth on 08/12/20 at 10:03:16

Steve,

I agree on the 3D printing contest, great idea.  I'd love to see what some of the creative people can come up with.  I think I better buy up a few sets of the Tang Band speakers, they might run out of stock!

My current 3D prints are to test sound only, I get no points for creativity in the design.




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 08/12/20 at 11:35:05

I'm running the 3D printing contest past my guys today.

Let's see what they can come up with.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 08/14/20 at 02:46:45

Is there any back wave on these Tang Band drivers?
It sure doesn't look like it.

Hmm, if not that changes everything on our initial plan of some sort of exotic looking horn.

Some ideas were thrown about some sort of spherical radial-horn mashup.

I'll think of some way of inspiring the designers to keep thinking.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Stefan on 08/15/20 at 00:00:12

It would be awesome if there would be a way to integrate a small and simple version of the Zen Triode and make them little active speakers that you can directly feed from a little DAC connected to the computer....

I would sign up for one of those  :)

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Lon on 08/15/20 at 00:52:03

You used to be able to buy DNA speakers with a Zen amp built into the cabinet. . . .  I have never heard anyone comment on them at all. If you're really interested I would talk with Steve or Sarah. . . .

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Tubecan on 08/17/20 at 19:44:10

I placed a pair of omega super 3i on some isoacoustics,woofers facing up and 2cd jewel boxes on each speaker as a lens,,,images like nothing anyone’s ever heard,almost tiny radial imaging.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/19/20 at 03:27:24


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by morp on 08/19/20 at 06:32:12

Gorgeous!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by morp on 08/19/20 at 06:39:29

I keep watching these hoping they'll be listed for sale soon :)

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/20/20 at 17:18:08


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by morp on 08/20/20 at 22:17:24

Wow!! Those almost look like old world cartography on a tiny radial.

Was that the end result of the Burl that gave you so much trouble a few posts above? Thank goodness it didn't get turned into firewood..

Richard

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/21/20 at 00:37:13

Yes, take a good look at it because I won't be making another pair from this wood ; )

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/21/20 at 04:39:17

So this is actually the one that launched across my shop and tormented me.  



You can see the repair in the right mitre (scroll right) if you know what to look for.  I was able to hide it in the radius with the high gloss that keeps your eye moving to the next surface.

https://decware.wistia.com/medias/up43wjmz63

Here is a video of the pair, be sure to watch this, it is just beautiful wood.

Steve




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/21/20 at 04:58:44


Are we having fun yet?   :D


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Stefan on 08/21/20 at 05:01:22

They look amazing, just bought one of these beauties, looking forward seeing (and hearing) them in person!  :)

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/21/20 at 05:13:45

We'll expect a full report, ideally with pictures ; )


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Stefan on 08/21/20 at 05:24:41

Sure thing, I can also do the unfair comparison to my ERRx  ;)

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/21/20 at 05:36:37

On your desktop they will sound exactly like your ERRX except for the low bass.  However with the $99 sub and a Zen Triode amp driving the Tiny Radials you will have an exact duplicate on your desktop, perhaps better.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by morp on 08/21/20 at 05:43:00

Still waiting for the next batch to go on sale so I can try one for desktop use :)

The tough part may be figuring out whether to snag the next one available, or to wait to see if any of my suggestions turn into TR. Good quandary to have I think.

This one is absolutely beautiful. If it's available for sale, I may not be able to hold out.

Thanks,
Richard

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Bottlehead on 08/21/20 at 06:50:11

Hey Stefan,

That's exactly the comparison review that I've been hoping for. I've been so impressed with the non-directionality (if that's actually a word) of the TRs in my office setup, that I'm wondering if I should be looking at the ERRx for my bedroom system. I'd have to sell my beautiful Omega Alnico High Output monitors in walnut, but it might be worth it. Anyway, please post a review of the Big Brother/Little Brother shootout when you can.

Thanks,
Randy

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Tubecan on 08/21/20 at 19:46:20

Bottle,

2 small rooms  with a couch between them,those master series would be here if I had the ‘room’.just have to keep waiting till they’re the size of my head with that rs5 alnico...I swear I dreamt  that,and a tiny version of the DNA,same woofer.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by morp on 08/21/20 at 20:22:22

... and it turns out my browser had cached the Tiny Radial page so it kept showing the Black Sapele first and I didn't see the new ones being listed :( bummed out.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Sarah on 08/21/20 at 20:52:13

CINNAMON AFROMOSIA & EXOTIC AMBOYNA BURL SOLD last night. Better luck next time.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Stefan on 08/21/20 at 21:14:59

@bottlehead: sure, I'll post some comparison once I have the little ones.


Q: what are people using as amp for the Tiny Radials? I would love to use the Zen Triode amp, but it is a little too big for my desk, any good other alternatives or I just need to get a bigger desk?  8-)

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Lon on 08/21/20 at 21:28:44

Is there an adjacent wall you can mount the amp on?

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by lazb on 08/21/20 at 22:05:34

Hang it off the edge of the desk. Steve has one mounted on the wall where he is recording the TRs!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Stefan on 08/21/20 at 23:10:39

Thx, I like the hanging it off the wall idea :)

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/23/20 at 01:59:23


I may make a Tiny Radial Tube amp if the popularity of these speakers continues to grow.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/23/20 at 02:21:27


UPDATE

Tonight I want to talk about the lens...

So far my 3D printing with resin experience has been mostly miserable despite the good results, the time it is taking and the failed prints for more reasons than I could list.  Since I am OK with the print when it comes out right, I did the logical thing and sent it to a real 3D printing business.  One that could 3D print metal if I wanted.  Hehe, in fact I priced a lens printed in solid gold and it was only $28,000.00.  I'm pretty sure that any company with the ability to do that, and the balls to list it on the site can handle my little task.  The price for the lens comes to about $20.00 a lens.  Worth it in my opinion if they come out good.  I should know next week.

The lens design works on pressure, not reflection.  I designed it to make the speakers sound like they were in the next room, and that's exactly how they sound.  That said, if you are using them as desktop speakers or setting directly in the sweet spot, you may like a bit more presence in the top end.

After a week or so of designing more esoteric lenses now that I can 3D print it vs. make it from wood, I received such a Zen solution it's just mind numbing. Any reflector needs a large surface area that is either flat or very slightly arced, like your hand. Anything like that has two issues right of the bat... A) it looks like shit and B) it's directional.

An upside-down Hershey's kiss shaped reflector does not work because counter intuitively it is round and makes no pressure. Neither does a solid crystal sphere the same diameter as the driver or smaller, which is sad because that may have looked cool too. In fact you can't hear the spheres when they are placed and removed. Does basically nothing but actually reduce presence.

So, once again the answer was so obvious, I couldn't see it, looking for something more complicated until finally the Audio Gods had had enough and stuck me in the eye with the answer. It hurt too. Nevertheless, here is the answer, straight from above, and man does it work well.




It is like adding a tweeter, but it's 100% radially dispersed! I'm still shaking my head at how well these work for the intended purpose.

You can't make this shit up.

I will sell the extra lens on the Tiny Radial Project Page when they become available.  I will call it a "presence layer".  




Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 08/23/20 at 02:42:22

It looks like a Pagoda!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/23/20 at 03:33:51


Yes,

So now that I am listening to the Tiny Radials with a second "presence layer" there is a dramatic change to what I am used to. Before they sounded like they were in the next room, which is to say that I kept thinking I was listening to the speakers in the listening room instead of in the  adjacent space where myself and the speakers actually are. This mod makes the speakers sound like they are in this space, no question, and for desktop listening it takes things to another level.

It changes the sound from a background sound to a foreground sound. I would like to eventually make them magnetically attach to the existing lens so you can easily take them on and off.

This is only the second time I have gotten to hear a true radial high frequency pattern that works right. The other time was the egg speakers. This is better because it doesn't rely on peaked frequency response to make up for dispersion losses. The lens design on the Tiny Radial increases efficiency so it is just the opposite of the egg design.

So, in summary, yes they are in the room now, not in the next room and as soon as I want to have big background music coming from the next room I'll simply remove the second lens.

This has taken foreground listening with the little subwoofer to new heights as well! Crap, with the sub and the added 6dB of highs from the second lens, the sound is pretty damn good in a small space, it would be some real head games to play on unsuspecting friends when they find out the sound is coming from a 2 watt amp driving 1.5 inch speakers with a tiny 8 inch subwoofer.  

Remembering back to the oringal Bose Acoustimass® system, while in fairness it got a lot louder, this Tiny Radial rig just spanks its ass all over the place... not even close. The Acoustimass® cubes I measured in my lab had a 12dB peak at 200Hz. The sub was crossed at around 180Hz. The plastic enclosures made playing loud sound like a plastic dildo burning on the stove...  but it was the general publics first exposure to the illusion of a hidden subwoofer and tiny speakers... and for that they deserve a lot of credit.



 


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 08/23/20 at 04:06:03

Now turn the top.lens 45 degrees.  Or make it round.
Or make the bottom round or any other shape.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/23/20 at 04:57:48

Agreed, that would sound equally good and may even look cooler!

Believe it or not the square outer shape actually has no correlation with the dispersion. The dispersion is determined by the inner shape, a circle. The outer shape being square vs. round is adding surface area, aka impedance, that is needed to raise the pressure to a functional level.  This thing has zero dips as you spin it on the platform and record it.  Flat high end response as it spins... the squares are virtually invisible.  

Of course, I had to try it, so I put a third layer (lens) on the pair and it is a linear improvement, 30% again.  This is the ultimate.  Now that I have heard this, I have to have it.  It's incredible.  In fact, I may even try to scale this up to a full size ERRX if I can find or make the right driver.  It would be interesting to prove my original convictions about radial frequencies above 5 or 6K being more problematic than beneficial wrong only to find it was perhaps the drivers at the time or any number of other variables.  

As a proof of concept, hearing the full presence of the highs in a perfect radial format with three of these lenses is eye opening.

Get this... it now sounds like it is in this room vs. the listening room, but images like it is in the other room.  I can't tell where it is frankly, it's so scaled out.  It's really big, and from something so small....  

I can tell you right now if I could scale this up to a full sized ERRX, this would wreck a lot of audiophiles.  It's so ironic, Tiny Radials scaled down from ERRX but without the tweeter because it's a 1.5 inch driver... now how to scale back up!

I already know this design is superior to the egg, which did in fact image like an Alien pair of speakers, and this is better.  Gee, if I could even get it up to a 6 inch scale with the same performance it would be insane.

Anyway, adding two presence layers to the Tiny Radial and a sub is just head shaking for it's size.  




I know to a fair number of readers this probably sounds a little overly enthusiastic but trust me it's not... it's working exactly as well as if you have someone hold the Tiny Radial horizontal and point the driver directly at you, except it's not directional like that is.  The most fascinating part is that it is now that same loudness but across 360 degrees instead of 30.  It's like each layer adds efficiency.  Getting really interesting.

When you hold you hand at the right angle above a Tiny Radial and hear the top end presence increase but realize anything less than the size of your hand is not going to work... three of these lenses is duplicating that effect but it follows you around the room because it's 10 times the dispersion.



ALSO, in the picture is a Zen Amp hanging on the wall.  Simply use two screws spaced about 5 inches apart, with large pan heads.  Remove the bottom cover on the amp and the lip will hang on the screws very securely.



Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/23/20 at 05:10:45

I'm sorry but as I continue to listen to this as the evening drifts into night, It is just blowing my mind.  Literally as Roon keeps finding amazing tracks I never knew existed combined with the way these things are sounding I have literally gasped three times already.  It now sounds like I am listing to the Zen Master Series speakers in the listening room though the doorway, but with a delicacy that made the wall disappear... somewhat like being here at the computer and in the listening chair at the same time.  It literally blended to the two worlds.  I wasn't expecting that.

Not to mention this feels like a 6dB increase in volume which is well balanced against a heavy bass mix from the sub.  No mud here... just rich tight super holographic sound from a pair placed less than 12 inches apart.  Soundstage off axis which is impossible btw, is as I perceive it an 18 foot arc with the Tiny Radials in the center, but I can't actually hear them at all.

Steve :)

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Dominick on 08/23/20 at 05:19:00

Steve....kudos on the new design!!  I can only imagine how they must sound.  I truly love the radial sound of my second generation Err’s.  They give me a wide dispersed sound that fill a room and disappear at the same time.  

These mini ERRx’s need to find a place in my home after my renovation, perfectly place on the top of each side of my mantel.  With my Err’s wrapped in the Bubbinga veneer, it look like I am stuck keeping with the same wood finish 😀.  

Dom



Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/23/20 at 05:24:09


Yea, I need to get some Bubinga...  haven't tried that yet.



Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by morp on 08/23/20 at 06:07:18

What a journey... the fun part of audio :)

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Stefan on 08/23/20 at 06:19:05

Hi Steve,
if you make a compact desktop version of the Zen Triode I’ll definitely buy one. Having the amp on the desk will work better with my height adjustable desk.  :)

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Brian on 08/23/20 at 06:40:45

For my eye, the triple lens is more appealing than the double, and the double more so than the single.

Steve posted:  "I may make a Tiny Radial Tube amp if the popularity of these speakers continues to grow."
 
This is interesting! Have you any ideas yet on what the circuit would be?
Perhaps one of those tubes with a triode and a pentode in one bottle could be put together Loftin white fashion to make a compact package.  


Steve posted:  "I may even try to scale this up to a full size ERRX if I can find or make the right driver."

How about a 2 inch or 1.4 inch compression driver located deep down inside the cabinet with it's horn carrying the sound up to the dispersion lens? I don't know where the bass driver would be.
The Ciare 12 inch coax with 1.4 inch tweeter might be the ticket. No need to add the horn.  https://usspeaker.com/ciare%20ndcx12-1.4-1.htm

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 08/23/20 at 16:09:29

Steve,

So if the lenses work off of pressure instead of "deflection" it makes me think about my long lost work in 2 stroke exhaust design and manufacturing.

I would think that if you started to mess with both the diameter and lengths between each lens things could get very interesting.
You would be able to help the drivers where they are weak and attenuate where there is a peak.

At least I think that might be something that is possible, but I haven't had my Diat Dr. Pepper yet this morning.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Tubecan on 08/23/20 at 19:06:20

;D stayed up till 3am listening to these tiny radials,I could see the sound,i could see bass drums,kinda spooky..officially the most fun I’ve ever had listening.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by khedspeth on 08/24/20 at 00:51:30

Headed out the garage to grow a second/third set of lens for my tiny radials!  Well, need to construct the 3D model then grow...maybe by tomorrow afternoon.  What material are the originals PLA?  

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/24/20 at 02:57:49

I print the lens from Resin, and make it solid, not hollow.  Going for density.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/24/20 at 04:05:44


Quote:
stayed up till 3am listening to these tiny radials,I could see the sound,i could see bass drums,kinda spooky..officially the most fun I’ve ever had listening.


3D Imaging will do that.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by khedspeth on 08/24/20 at 12:01:26

The resin explains the nice surface finish versus a lot of post grow finish work.  

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Nick324 on 08/25/20 at 23:44:45

Ok, increased and evenly dispersed high frequency output, very nice and looking forward to a pair with the extra top pieces.
Am I the only one though who is getting these little bad boys to walk and bounce when playing music? If so then my bad, but I would also like to see the very bottom piece thickened up and weighted a bit more to keep them from walking please.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Jeff of Arabica on 08/26/20 at 05:58:48

No, not the only one.  When playing at volume, I too have trouble keeping them still.  A true testament to the power of that mighty diminutive driver!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Bottlehead on 08/26/20 at 06:03:12

Mine haven't walked yet, but they're stretching their legs, vibrating against the desktop. I put mine on a pair of mouse pads, and that seemed to tone them down a bit.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/26/20 at 16:38:48


Someone want to figure out what a laser-cut 3/8" plate-steel base would cost?  That is the kind of weight that would be ideal.

That said, once you get a the cone to move enough to make the enclosure dance around, the advantages of a 1.5 inch driver are no longer valid so my motivation for a heavier plinth would be for what it would do to the sound at more modest volumes.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Tubecan on 08/26/20 at 16:57:49

Test

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Tubecan on 08/26/20 at 17:01:23

That's not a radial....my radials were jumping at higher power from the start,the next day they calmed down,now they're the greatest thing since a pair of acoustats from 40 years back.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Tubecan on 08/26/20 at 17:29:56

Tiny Radial--

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Tubecan on 08/26/20 at 17:31:08

8 year old mac,i refuse too shell out for a new one.I'm getting closer.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by HockessinKid on 08/26/20 at 18:02:10

Steve,

You may want to check out Desk Top Metal here's the link: https://www.desktopmetal.com/

They might provide some solutions for metal and/or resin 3D castings if you wish to simplify tiny radial production. First commercial 3D printing company that can produce items at scale.

HK

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Tubecan on 08/26/20 at 18:25:58

Tried posting my omega speakers,laying on their backs woofers facing up and away on a pair of isoacoustics stands,with 2 CD jewel cases,now that I know about direct reflecting vs pressure loading,,if you place a rs5 with 2 cutout sour cream containers cut out with some thought,you may have the ultimate game changer.You will rule the world.


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Archie on 08/26/20 at 19:34:25

Obviously a resonance problem.  If a heavier base is desired I'd suggest getting brass plate and cutting with a bandsaw or tablesaw and edge sanding.  Seems a lot cheaper than 3D printing.  After milling a TT periphery ring out of brass with my woodworking tools, making brass basses would be a piece of cake.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/26/20 at 19:54:13


Awesome, Archie is going to be making the bases from brass plate for us!

Steve ; )

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Bottlehead on 08/27/20 at 01:15:23

Way to go, Arch! What a guy!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Nick324 on 08/27/20 at 01:31:40

I got my hands on some sorbothane acoustic isolation pads and turned down the volume...damned party poopers. I'm still looking forward to my next pair with triple lens tops and a nice shiny brass plate bottom :)

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 08/27/20 at 01:36:54

What are the bottom dimensions?

I'm asking as a friend who has access to a water jet and a lot of different  materials.

Personally I think 3/8 aluminum  that has been polished to a mirror finish would look nice. Maybe some feet for the bottom??

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/27/20 at 02:57:40

Tell your friend 85mm x 85mm x 9mm with a 3/16 radius on the 4 corners and remind him that weight is the objective and it will be painted black. Unless the lens is also made from metal, no sense polishing it. A polished brass lens and plinth would be pretty.

It should be noted that this is slightly larger than the plinth drawn on the Tiny Radial Plans, because I have been making the panels 5/16 instead of 1/4.  

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Archie on 08/27/20 at 16:16:19

Thanks for bailing me out Donnie!  Phew ...   ;D

There are other finishes for brass.  I've used blueing compound on it which gives a nice brown patina.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 08/27/20 at 17:23:33

Hmm, look what showed up on my desk this morning.

2ea.  85mm X 85mm X 9.5 thick with 5 mm radius corners, steel plates.


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/30/20 at 06:03:29

Such a tease...

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 08/30/20 at 06:12:18

So I purchased a hi-tech moisture meter...  

The burls that have been haunting me and taking stupid amounts of time to finish are from south east Asia.  They come covered in wax or some kind of crude varnish.

The last pair I did, yet to be shown, the flat panels curled up like rocking chair runners...  I had to train them back with a spray bottle of water and assemble them within an hour before they became too far gone to use...

Today I measured the most recent burl I have imported and it read over 35% moisture content...

OK, I get it now.

These Asian burls when actually manifested as a pair of Tiny Radials should cost double. If you live in the rain forest and contract a local to make you a pair I'm sure it will be much less.

-Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 08/30/20 at 17:04:42

Steve,
If you want the plates to experiment with IM me. They are just sitting here.
Truthfully, I'm planning to visit a friend of mine in Morton next weekend.... delivery could be pretty easy.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Archie on 08/30/20 at 17:09:30

I too have a "high tech" moisture meter and one thing I've noticed is that it seems to measure density.  I do not have the type with the probes.  I have some very heavy douglas fir that is super dry but measures as high moisture.  I don't doubt those burles are wet but I bet they are dense too.  Getting an accurate reading will be hard.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by HockessinKid on 09/04/20 at 01:52:19

Time for some more Tiny Radials please. A pair in curly or natural cherry with some nice grain would be great!

HK

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Stefan on 09/06/20 at 01:56:12

Finally got my Tiny Radials! They are beautiful and sound great for such a little speaker.

Picture with them and my ERRx.[img][/img]

I also got the subwoofer that Steve recommended for $100, totally worth it! Highly recommend it, it gives the little speakers more punch and body. I did some comparisons listening to the ERRx and TRs with my Torii, and while not a fair comparison (TRs + sub $500 vs ERRx $2.5k) they fare pretty well. They have a wide soundstage and sound very natural. Main difference I hear with the ERRx is that the midrange is just "fuller" and instruments and voices have more "body". I have the ERRx to listen as background music and they are great for that, for small to medium size rooms the TRs with subs can do that job well too.
For dedicated listening I still prefer my Tannoy's  :)

I'll use the TRs for my office desk and until Steve creates a tiny zen amp (please Steve!) I got this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00X5ECQ4Q/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
with 2 year warranty it is $200 and works really well with the TRs + sub. It is small and well made, but has really small transformers, but with the subs this works out well. While they don't have the transparency and punch of the Torii they do sound good enough for the desktop setup.

Thanks Steve for these little TRs and all the love and labor you put in them.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Bottlehead on 09/06/20 at 19:40:42

Hey all (and especially Steve),

I just thought that I'd relate my latest little "Adventure In Amplication". I'll be brief. Following my recent move, I found my ZBit and my ZStage, but I didn't have a suitable amp. Then I found my Linear Tube Audio MZ2 preamp, which I remembered could function as a one-watt amplifier. I had never had a pair of speakers that I thought would work with one watt, so I had only used it as a pre in my bedroom system. So, to cut to the chase, I came out of the balanced outs of my Directstream dac (@3W) to my ZBit, into the ZStage, into the MZ2, and then out to the Tiny Radials. (I should also mention that when I ordered my ZBit, I had Steve give me two sets of RCA outs, one of which I'm using to send the signal to my subwoofer). I have two words to describe the sound: "YOW!", and "ZA!" I set the level of the ZBit at about 80-85%, and left it there. Then by riding the gain between the ZStage and the MZ2, I can dial the sound in to match the recording. I have never had to go over about 2 o'clock on the MZ2 to get to a satisfying volume level. Pretty amazing what you can do with one pure (boosted) watt of power.

So Steve,  you've probably deduced by now that I'm adding my voice to those calling for a Tiny Amp to go with the Tiny Radials. The above experiment has convinced me that it's a winning combination. Maybe you could offer a package deal, amp and speakers. Or a BIG package deal with ZBit, ZStage, Amp and Speakers. OK, maybe I'm getting carried away, but my one-watt listening session last night is still echoing in my ears.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Stefan on 09/06/20 at 20:15:15

Hey Steve, and please add the flexible silver speaker cables to the package  :)

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Tubecan on 09/07/20 at 00:39:35

What happened to the stackable lenses?..one can only eat so much sour cream and ice cream.Lenses!


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Bottlehead on 09/07/20 at 01:49:22

Hey Stefan,

Forgot to say: I agree - your TRs really are beautiful. And I love the size comparison w/the ERRx. I have an idea that there may be another pair in my stable down the road. A dark walnut, with a nice grain/burl would do it for me.

Randy

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/07/20 at 03:58:57


Quote:
Steve,
If you want the plates to experiment with IM me. They are just sitting here.
Truthfully, I'm planning to visit a friend of mine in Morton next weekend.... delivery could be pretty easy.


Sure, stop on over!


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/07/20 at 04:04:16


STACKABLE LENSES

Right now I am still in development with the 3D printed lenses.  I don't want to print them myself.  I'll use my small printer for prototypes and let the pros do it.  That said it's going to take some fine tuning.  Once I get the lens printed the way I want it, I will be trying to create one with interlocking components so they can be stacked.  That way you can add one or two, your choice.  I also would like to make each level smaller so the lenses follow the taper of the speaker.  All this takes time, and I don't have a lot of it, so be patient.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 09/07/20 at 04:19:11

I've noticed in my life that I either had time or I had money. Never both at the same time.
Sometimes it is best to take a step back and analyse what we truly need at the time.

It seems that the older I get the more time is a much more valuable thing to me.

It seems like there is always tomorrow, until there isn't.

Steve, take your time!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/07/20 at 04:22:51

FLEXIBLE SILVER WIRE

Tiny Radials need a good flexible speaker cable, and if you're running a Decware amp or something similar, then silver plated copper is recommended.

.

You can find this type of cable on eBay, search under Silver-plated 8ag speaker wire and I'm sure you can find many variations of it.

The particular one I am using, pictured above, is extremely good.  The eBay variations are all priced more than reasonable.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Melvin on 09/07/20 at 21:10:55

Happy to say I managed to snag a pair of Tiny Radials in Natural Sapele (#028). I have a couple of amps which should mate well - the minuscule APPJ 0901A (perfect for desktop) and my SE84UFO. I have a couple of unused subs to play with as well. Fun.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Stefan on 09/09/20 at 01:08:42

Thanks Steve, ordered a set of those wires, for now using the solid Decware ones, at least the speakers have no chance of jumping around at high output levels with those cables  ;D

Now that I have the speakers for 2 days on my desktop I need to say they sound even better on the desktop compared to the having them further apart when being ontop of my ERRx! Now hour long conference calls become also easier to listen to as and you can always look at the nice speakers the whole day  :)


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/09/20 at 03:04:53

They look great on your desk!


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Dominick on 09/09/20 at 05:09:34


Quote:
I did some comparisons listening to the ERRx and TRs with my Torii, and while not a fair comparison (TRs + sub $500 vs ERRx $2.5k) they fare pretty well. They have a wide soundstage and sound very natural. Main difference I hear with the ERRx is that the midrange is just "fuller" and instruments and voices have more "body". I have the ERRx to listen as background music and they are great for that, for small to medium size rooms the TRs with subs can do that job well too.
For dedicated listening I still prefer my Tannoy's  :)


Stefan.....thanks for the information.  I love the soundstage of my ERR’s and it’s great to hear that the Tiny Radials fair pretty well by comparison.  I think I need to pick up a pair to place on both sides of my mantle after my house is redone.  

Dom

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Stefan on 09/10/20 at 01:13:17

Hey Dom,
yes, I think they are a steal for that price (hope Steve is not reading this  ;) ), they also work better closer together in the 0.5-2m range and closer to a wall, like in a shelf, compared to the ERRx. And they are just beautiful to look at. I'll get another pair once you don't need to check every day if new ones come available  :)

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/10/20 at 05:19:28



So now that I'm past the process, which is what has made this particularly fun, I am making a video series of a Tiny Radial being made.  Here is part one:

Here is the link to part 1:  https://decware.wistia.com/medias/ihp4cwo121

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/11/20 at 01:12:17

Here is Part II of the Tiny Radial Build



https://decware.wistia.com/medias/iml7zqj0tm



Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/11/20 at 17:40:21


Here is part 3




https://decware.wistia.com/medias/xmgcwd748e


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 09/11/20 at 23:48:28

I enjoyed the videos.

It was interesting how you engineered your way around the more technical cuts.
By the way, nice shop and really nice tools.
The Steve Miller songs were a nice touch!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/11/20 at 23:56:25





Remember this awhile back? Well, the pair is finally done moving and I was able to get them to stay flat making it possible to do a high gloss finish at last.  You would have been shocked to see what this wood did after the cabinet was finished, even under linseed oil. Every burl opened up like an eye and swelled proud of the surface. I had to flatten and refinish this pair four times over the past couple months.  It has looked like this four times.  I know it's done moving now, because these have been done for well over a month and still flat on all sides.




https://decware.wistia.com/medias/k6szltg15e




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/12/20 at 00:12:06


Personally, as cool as the burls are I actually like things that are simpler, and the Padauk is becoming one of my favorite woods for Tiny Radials!



https://decware.wistia.com/medias/fbrdshfwkx

Actually I like all the woods.  I'd like to have all 30 pair and arrange them in a giant arc and then just set there and gaze at them.




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by ScottNC on 09/12/20 at 00:17:01

I agree, the burls are mesmerizing, but the simple beauty is stunning.
Scott

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/12/20 at 05:44:52

The Tiny Radial Build video is progressing...  I'm uploading several more parts...  we're getting there. After these, the next parts will be the plinth and the lens.  

It has taken a lot of time and money to get the process to this stage and I am enjoying sharing it in almost real time...  

Steve






Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Melvin on 09/14/20 at 16:46:13

So, the TR's should be arriving in a couple of days and at least initially I'll set them up in my small-ish dining room. Thinking I'll try this:

Bluesound Node 2 > SE84UFO > Tiny Radials / Ohm MicroSubwoofer 10

This is about as simple and convenient as I can get using a digital source. I have a pair of the Ohm subs but wonder if 2 would be overkill. Thoughts?

I may have to hook up the turntable as well .. just because.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Nick324 on 09/14/20 at 21:05:53

Melvin, if the sub is placed in a good location, one single should fill very nicely. I have used them with a single and double sub set-up and find it much more difficult to tune 2x subs to them. It’s a bit much IMO.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Melvin on 09/14/20 at 22:55:03

Thanks Nick .. much appreciated.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/15/20 at 04:35:43


Here is Part 4 of the Tiny Radial Build.



https://decware.wistia.com/medias/p5ify3x8to

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/15/20 at 04:40:15


Here is part 5 of the Tiny Radial Build.




https://decware.wistia.com/medias/sno9vt4dq3





Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/15/20 at 04:44:35


Here is part 6 of the Tiny Radial Build



https://decware.wistia.com/medias/9twjfn132p




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/15/20 at 05:04:07

UPDATE:

So far I have sold 30 pair of Tiny Radials and the longest a pair has been on the page without being sold is 84 minutes. I have even been posting them at odd times of the day and night... doesn't matter.

This is great! But to answer the popular question: When will you have more in stock? The answer is unknown, except that on average a few pair show up on the page every couple weeks.

I am thrilled to announce that I have talked Bob Ziegler into a working vacation during this years DECFEST 2020 that isn't going to happen because of COVID19. He and I will be spending 4 days doing and thinking about nothing but how many Tiny Radials we can make in that time frame.

This will be a special batch of Tiny Radials.  A tag team effort from Bob & Steve... I think I will create a unique serial number for this rare batch.. perhaps TRBS035, the BS standing for Bob&Steve... maybe I should make it Steve&Bob... I think about that.

So by October this new batch will start showing up on the page. Prior to that I only have a few more pair getting ready to post.

Steve : )




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Nick324 on 09/15/20 at 13:35:00

Steve, I remember seeing one of the newer pairs available and saying to myself, “ohhh those look gorgeous i Need them in my life.” I turned around to grab my cc and refreshed the page to put them in my cart....Gone in the blink of an eye. LOL this has turned into a sort of mini-treasure hunt. Can’t wait for the triple flang heavy base models.. Please continue to have fun making them and knowing they have turned into a Coveted little treasure for folks. Happy listening to all.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Melvin on 09/16/20 at 01:15:28

My TR's arrived today (a day early!). In anticipation of their arrival I had everything in place and I'm now having a listen. First, I'd like to mention they're beautiful furniture-grade little pieces of sculpture. They're also adorable and aesthetically perfect for my dining room. Second, they sound better out of the box than expected. I'll leave further sound quality comments for a later time assuming they'll need some break-in. Speaking of break-in, how long might that be?

Steve .. thank you so much for what you do.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by SteveLuck on 09/16/20 at 04:51:26

Hi Steve I bought the plans and thought these would make great Xmas presents for my niece and two nephews - great music without them annoying their mum too much with throbbing bass through the house.  But I'd need to provide a cheap amp to go with them for the immediate future.  Problem is all the cheap amps seem to be pumping out 50 watts plus but the drivers on these speakers max out at 20 watt and 80db sensitivity.  Is there an easy way to stop the kids blowing the drivers or is that unlikely ?  I see parts express do a plate amp subwoofer combo kit that keeps it down to 30 watts per channel.  Thoughts?

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Brian on 09/16/20 at 08:24:24

Hello, SteveLuck
The lowest cost amps I know which have great sound are the Jerry Curtis Spud https://spudkit.com/?page_id=198  
Featured as a kit, but also available built by Jerry and tested. $650

And the lowest priced Decware amp: model SE84UFO  $995
https://www.decware.com/newsite/tubes.html

Both are around 3 Watts power.

Brian

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Melvin on 09/16/20 at 18:25:12



Considering I'll soon be using the SE84UFO in the main system again now that the summer heat has ended, this morning I swapped the amp out for my APPJ PA0901A. I replaced the original tubes with a Genelex Gold Lion and some Mullard re-issues. Using the 4 ohm taps the sound is surprisingly good so far even with only a couple of hours of break in.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by SteveLuck on 09/18/20 at 12:49:35

Have you got a track listing for the first video you posted?  Plugged some headphones in and had a proper listen - blown away.  Have drivers on backorder :-(  but found a modest priced Chinese John Linsley Hood Class Amp that maxes out at 12watt.  To run as a desk system or part of a xmas present.  I fancy trying a Zen amp on my Carfrae horn (licensed) replicas. Currently have them running ACA monoblocks. Maybe the same mix of wood paint and MDF on the Tiny Radials.





Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by JazztoGo on 09/23/20 at 20:32:22

just got my littel speakers and these things are really neat.  The sound is just good and just for kicks added my omega 8" subwoofer to it and just wonderful

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/24/20 at 03:47:00

Melvin,  Great picture!

SteveLuck, Sadly I don't have that track list but you could probably use SoundHound app to find out what it was.  Nice horns btw!  Great job!

JazztoGo, They seem to pair extremely well with the smaller subwoofers! And you're right it takes them to a completely new level.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Melvin on 09/24/20 at 13:41:17

Day 9 with the TR's .. they've responded to break-in as expected with some moments of real beauty. I'd guess I have about 30 hours on them now and they're opening up nicely. I recently ripped out the carpeting in this room making sub integration a bit of a chore but I think I have it dialed in pretty good now. Really like what I'm hearing.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/25/20 at 02:27:00


Here is part 7 of the Tiny Radial Build...



https://decware.wistia.com/medias/lt71e0llfe

Steve

 :)


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/25/20 at 02:31:56


And Part 8




https://decware.wistia.com/medias/29yhef89dl






Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by SteveLuck on 09/25/20 at 10:37:46

Thanks for posting the Videos and putting the plans up for sale.  I'm putting together a mini system around these speakers on a budget - cheapish class A amp - bluetooth to RCA adapter and I like AntiCables for price and sound.  Not super high end but enough to get some better tunes into my sisters house.  The kids have all got Ipads and Ipods that can stream to bluetooth until they get a better source and the compact speakers shouldn't cause any objections.

That catalysed? hard wax finish looks amazing stuff.  Lot's of timber in NZ but not much figured stuff.  I'm talking to a guy who's got Burl Poplar - would hard wax go over water based stain?

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/26/20 at 01:36:35


A half day yesterday and 10 hours today, Bob and I have made some progress on the Tiny Radials...





Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/26/20 at 01:37:02





Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/26/20 at 01:42:30





The woods I had in the shop for this project were Bubinga, Red Oak, Walnut, Birdseye Maple.




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/26/20 at 01:46:22




So this is what standing at the bandsaw for two days gets ya... that was my job.

That's Bob in the background : )





Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/26/20 at 01:52:41





It will use up around $3K worth of Tiny Radial Drivers. : )

Tomorrow will be putting the miters on the edges and seeing how many Tiny Radials we can get glued together.  That will mean sitting on soft stools most of the day at the table, which after standing for two days at the bandsaw will be a welcome relief.

Steve






Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 09/26/20 at 02:33:09

Holy shit! That is a pile of wood!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/26/20 at 02:38:19


I know right...

I was on the last 3 panels on the band saw when the blade snapped and sent both myself and Bob at least 10 inches off the floor because it sounded like something exploded.  (Snapped at the weld - carbon steel) Anyway, we could say that this is how many pieces you can cut on a single 3/4 inch blade. : )

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 09/26/20 at 02:56:17

Did you clean out Parts Expresses' warehouse of all of the drivers?

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/26/20 at 04:56:11

And binding posts

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by morp on 09/26/20 at 05:54:25

Incredible pictures!

Can you share some of the changes you're putting in place to operationalize the production of Tiny Radials? Now that Bob is here, how are you changing/streamlining the process to crank these out faster/more efficiently?

Thanks,
Richard

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Dominick on 09/26/20 at 08:04:12

Steve,

Great pics...you are really making progress with Bob helping out.  I can’t wait to see how the Tiny Radials come out in the Bubbinga Wood.  They will match my ERR’s in the Bubbinga perfectly.  I call dibs on a pair. 😄

Dom

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/26/20 at 23:07:57





Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 09/27/20 at 00:51:42

And all I got done today was sanding and priming one pair of speakers.

I'm such a slacker compared to Bob and you.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/27/20 at 02:54:40


Be glad because I can tell you right now, so far the first three days of this have been brutal.  Took most of the fun right out of it.  But the fun will come back into it as soon as they all find a home.  The demand is high right now.


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by DPC on 09/27/20 at 19:45:30

Me thinks you could see a "tiny" bit of fun today as one set sailing outta there.

I have listened to a set and held one unfinished unit in my hand.  These rascals are for sure the real deal.

My set will join a full sized pair of RL3's in the house.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/28/20 at 04:12:55




Here is the version 2 lens for the Tiny Radials. What is different about it, is the texture, and it is being printed by a professional 3D printing company in a special black Nylon.  The fact that I don't have to print it is the best part. I am looking forward to getting a large number of these in next week for our recent batch of Tiny Radials.  :D


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/28/20 at 04:38:18


Today started like this





Unwrapping all the taped up Tiny Radial cabinets so we can spend the day sanding.  Get this... We spent 12 hours, two men, sanding tiny radials.  That's all we did today, all day.

                     




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/28/20 at 05:40:51




Creating matched pairs by determining the front and backs and finding book matched patterns where possible...  This was before the sanding started.


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/28/20 at 05:50:45





Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/28/20 at 05:58:47




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/28/20 at 06:10:49



Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/28/20 at 06:11:34


Literally the entire 12 hour day sanding. Two men. All day... but they are perfect.  Each one hard to set down after you've picked it up.  

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by HockessinKid on 09/28/20 at 10:23:42

Wow! You and Bob are really kicking butt to crank out so many wonderful pairs of Tiny Radials. Will these have the heavy brass bases that have been previously discussed?

HK

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by GroovySauce on 09/28/20 at 14:00:44

I should stop looking at this thread! I want a pair so bad! They look like little gems.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Melvin on 09/28/20 at 14:07:29

They are little gems! I tried ignoring the thread and, well, now I have a lovely pair in Sapele.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by SteveLuck on 09/29/20 at 10:18:59

Hi Steve - question on the wall thickness for those home building these.  Is the internal volume of the speaker a factor in it's performance?  If I use thicker material and keep the external dimensions the same will it work (provided the internal walls are sanded to allow the driver to fit)?  

I'm tempted by some laminated flooring for the sides, 3mm of Oak or Ash laminated to poplar to give 14mm thickness in total.  Other flooring MFR use hardwood and MDF.  I'd just need to chop the locking mechanism from the sides of each plank.

If I add another 1/4 inch to the outside of a 3D model I started playing with it looks a little chunky and it looks like the lense would need to be widened.

I ordered a Japanese saw today (always wanted one) and a 1 and 3/4 inch Forstner bit and a Drum sanding set.  Looking forward to this project.  No sign of Parts Express shipping the drivers yet - Out of stock when I ordered.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/29/20 at 16:14:42

The minimum wall thickness is 1/4 inch, the max is determined by how much you want to carve/sand out the inside for the driver to fit.  The driver is self-enclosed, meaning it does not rely on the enclosure for anything other than bass performance.  You can make the enclosure as thick as you like.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/29/20 at 18:07:10




My first selfie... probably explains the look.

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/29/20 at 18:12:13




All sanded and ready to be hand oiled.


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 09/29/20 at 18:18:08


Yesterday and Today were are installing the drivers.  With some luck, binding posts will arrive tomorrow.






Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Tubecan on 09/29/20 at 20:26:50

I'm using my speaker collection as stands for these little beasts...Harbeth sounds like there's a subwoofer. in the room.Omegas depending where on the speaker you place these they sound thin-all the way to too much bass.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Tubecan on 09/29/20 at 20:30:00

I gotta go polish them....lol....first timer,usually just dust them off.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 09/29/20 at 21:28:48


Steve Deckert wrote on 09/29/20 at 18:18:08:

Yesterday and Today were are installing the drivers.  With some luck, binding posts will arrive tomorrow.





Yeah, I tried ordering 3 pairs of binding post and they are all out!
I hear a giant sucking noise up East Peoria way.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by DPC on 09/29/20 at 21:51:25

Tubecan, you have a fine looking set of TR's.

I'm presently about twenty four hours on mine.  Indeed, the first few hours were not what I expected.  Today I rearranged the deck chairs on the Titanic (my desk).  Moved everything and changed the speaker wires.

At this point I have no regrets on the purchase.  The new arrangement has made a large difference.  I listen very nearfield.  Sub integration was a breeze as not much help is needed.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Tubecan on 09/29/20 at 23:41:29

My TR’s have  been everywhere,on the carpet,fireplace,one in each room,always fun to experiment,they’re the best imaging speakers ever,and when I play reggae,I sit here in disbelief.Speaker wires I tried plenty,the totem cables sound the most together and clearest.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by SteveLuck on 10/02/20 at 08:49:39

Working hard gathering tools and materials - satin nickel binding post on the way from parts express - no signs of drivers yet.  I've found someone who will cut some Black figured walnut and plane and drum sand it down to 7 - 6mm.  Going to look so pretty here 's what i've agreed to buy. [img][/img]

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 10/03/20 at 03:30:44

Nice  :)

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 10/12/20 at 03:31:41


The binding posts finally arrived weeks late, so today I got a chance to make some more assembly videos while I finish more of these Tiny Radials.




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 10/12/20 at 03:59:18

Steve, so you are the reason that I could only buy the ugly gold binding posts!

But my stuff is only going into barns, the cattle and mice don't seem to mind.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by SteveLuck on 10/12/20 at 04:58:21

Drivers are out of stock till late November now - just chasing Parts Express to see if the ones I ordered are being shipped soon.  Have everything else in hand ready now.  I bought a 100 M3 thread inserts (cheap) so that I can use them with M3 stainless cap head screws I have for driver and possibly lens fixing.  I also have M3 brass and stainless standoffs that could be used for spacing.  Have to make sure that if we have quake here in Wellington (NZ) big enough to tip them over that they stay in one piece.  Thicker base  might be called for.

You've been wandering how to scale these up - could you have four of the same drivers facing up in a scaled up enclosure ie 2x2 array - what would happen?  Or could you just buy a 4 inch driver and passive radiator and mount them back to back sealed together to make your own Tang band arrangement just bigger?  Appreciated the bigger the driver the less likely it is to move as fast.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 10/15/20 at 03:37:42

So Steve are you still asshole deep in Tiny Radials?
I would imagine that you are having nightmares about them about now!

Truthfully I'm hoping that you are having the time of your life, sometimes too much of a good thing is just what you need!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 10/15/20 at 23:16:27

I am having too much fun... can't think of a better time to have it ; )



Anyone wondering what this sounds like?  ;)


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 10/16/20 at 01:54:11




https://decware.wistia.com/medias/vi2zyzk644

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 10/16/20 at 02:51:31

If a little is good, way too much is just barely enough!

Overkill is so much fun!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Doug on 10/16/20 at 04:06:48

The 12 pack is hilariously awesome!  I needed that this evening!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 10/16/20 at 04:21:10


Just in case someone asks, six 8 ohm speakers, that actually measure 7 ohms, in parallel is 1.38 ohms.  After listening to that for a bit, I wanted it to get louder, so I series-paralleled it to 2.76 ohms and then made the video.  The amp is quite happy driving it all day.




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Bottlehead on 10/16/20 at 09:17:36

One of the pleasures of following this forum is tuning in after having been gone a few days and discovering unexpectedly awesome stuff.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by HockessinKid on 10/16/20 at 12:44:48

Well done Steve, well done!

HK

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Tubecan on 10/16/20 at 19:37:06

From six packs to two packs..now music just floats.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Dominick on 10/17/20 at 08:03:00

Tubecan...great pic!  Can’t help but notice the Ray Bown Trio “Bassics” CD.  What a phenomenal album.    

Tidal used to have that in their catalog, but got rid of it like a year ago. Needless to say my wife has that on my  Christmas list as a stocking stuffer.  

Dom

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Ian Heritch on 10/21/20 at 03:39:24

Mac>DAC>simple tube amp>Tiny Radials

I assume that if I want to add a subwoofer I must add a pre-amp as the signal source for the sub? Is there another/simpler way to get a signal to the subwoofer?

Ian

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 10/21/20 at 18:39:26



Use the hi-level inputs on the sub amp.  Just run another pair of speaker wires from the amplifier to the sub amp.  You can also use the hi-level output from the sub amp. Depending on the quality of the amplification, you may not notice any degradation in the sound.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by deucekazoo on 10/21/20 at 22:35:08

If you have an extra amp sitting around. You can use one of these. I run this one off my DAC.

https://rolls.com/product/SX95


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 10/26/20 at 05:03:44


As I sit here tonight with a massive sliver of some exotic wood in my hand, I realized that all but a few pair of the Tiny Radials that Bob helped me build are already gone.  The longest a pair stayed on the site was 1 hour and 54 minutes.  

The wish list has grown to nearly a hundred so far, and message received.  The winter will have some cozy hours in the shop making more Tiny Radials.

To keep it interesting I purchased four more exotic woods for Tiny Radials.  It turns out that "bowl blanks" for wood turning are ideal for a pair.  I get the 7x7x2 if I want no room for error, or the 8x8x3 if I want a lot of room, but then I get greedy and make two pair with zero room for error...

It has been fun to explore the different woods.  It's amazing the variety.  Also I can't think of any other way that I could experience so many different hardwoods, so that has been great.

With the Tiny Radials I have been leaning towards heavier / denser woods because so far they have seemed to have more bass and can be played louder without dancing on the table.

One of the blanks I purchased was this one:  Bloodwood, shown below.



This was a real surprise.  Of all the woods so far, including Wenge, this is by FAR the winner of the dense wars.  I couldn't believe it when I picked this up... A concrete block the same size I doubt would have been as heavy.

When you cut it, the pitch is so high it sounds like Porcelain China.  When I sanded it, it became so polished that it looked finished and waxed.  I only used half the block by using a thinner bandsaw blade and making the panels .25 inches thick.  

Wanting to to protect the wax sealed remained after I cut it, I did what I normally do and painted the cut face with linseed oil. I came back 24 hours later and the oil was still basically wet, none of it had soaked into the wood and this was on a rough cut face.

So yea, it is despite being thinner than normal, by far the heaviest pair of Tiny Radials.  I glued some of the cut off back to the inside of the enclosure doubling the thickness to 1/2 inch at the base...  

Believe it or not, between the Zen Master Series Baffles, the Caintuck Audio Baffles, and the Tiny Radials I am starting to develop and ear for the different woods and how they effect the sound.  I guess that's my present for being a year older.  ::)

It is nevertheless fascinating and I'm predicting this will be my favorite sounding pair but I could be totally wrong because the pitch will be so high if the energy does overwhelm the mass it could wreck the midrange.

We will see.

Apparently some A-hole named Decware purchased all the drivers, so now we wait for more to arrive.  ;)

Anyway, getting back to the wood... I knew as soon as I slid this 3 inch block across my Jointer that it was special.  It must have a lot of oil or natural waxes in it because it does not take a finish well.  I already know from what happened when I sanded it to 220 and it got shiny that if I continued up to 1000 grit and then buffed it would have looked like it was finished.

Steve



Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by SteveLuck on 10/26/20 at 05:36:10

Yep Ordered two pairs of drivers from Parts Express weeks ago and they will be out of stock for weeks to come - tracked down a single pair in stock from a German web site and keeping fingers crossed they'll be delivered in time for me to build at least one pair as a present for xmas.  In the meantime I've upgraded the fence on my table saw and i'm waiting for a Bosch table router to arrive.  Could have built one but sometimes it's more cost effective to buy, adapt and upgrade mass manufactured stuff.   I've been building a bench for that to sit in too.

Any reason you didn't use a mitre lock joint on the corners?


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Dominick on 10/26/20 at 15:07:51

Steve what a great journey these radials have taken since inception!!  The Janka hardness of the Bloodwood is 2900, which is like 1200 more than the Paduke.  Talk about a dense wood for sure!!

https://www.rarewoodsusa.com/product/bloodwood/

My cousin who builds humidors out of exotic wood told me that working with bloodwood is insanely challenging to work with.  

Please keep us posted on the build of this Tiny Radial with the Bloodwood.  I have been toying with the idea of making a pair of DIY Caintuck OB’s, and would love to hear your opinion on how the Tiny Radials sound in comparison to the others with a hardwood.  I would bet that for an OB build, the sound would be very rich, even using like a 10 or a 12 inch speaker.

Dominick

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by deucekazoo on 10/26/20 at 23:10:41

Steve,
Bloodwood is one of my favorite woods. Its harder to work with because it likes to break off in small chunks on the edges, its hard and brittle.
I made the mistake once of putting water based poly on that wood, it turned it brown. This was a long time ago when i knew nothing about finishing wood. Made that mistake only once and don't use poly on any exotic wood.

I can't wait to see what they will look like.

John

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 10/27/20 at 04:08:56

Well, you might be waiting awhile... bad things are already happening. Go figure.

It is shrinking and cracking and pulling the miters open which means the glue doesn't stick well enough.

I wonder what would happen if I sealed the four panels and let them cure before I assembled them... hmmm.


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by SteveLuck on 10/27/20 at 07:35:25

"I wonder what would happen if I sealed the four panels and let them cure before I assembled them... hmmm"

I had to use "Liquid Nails" to glue the front legs to my horn speakers as the MDF had been thoroughly sealed with two pack sealer to avoid damp getting into it and cracking the paint finish later.  The glue needed some serious clamping as it tried to pull the wood where it wanted as it dried but the end result has been a glued joint that's supporting a huge weight of MDF cabinet (you have to walk them across the floor to move them). Goes on like a clear rubbery cement  - you can scrape any excess of after with sharp knife or chisel.

Good luck


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Brian on 10/29/20 at 07:09:46

If density of material is good for the sound of these speakers, I wonder if they would benefit from being cast in Bronze.

Brian

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 10/30/20 at 02:51:37


If I had the resources to make that happen I would be the first to try it and find out.  : )


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/06/20 at 02:02:45

So the bloodwood pair I built was pretty harry. I have been waiting them out to see how much they continue to crack.  It's hard to get anything to penetrate the wood because it is so dense.



Since the block was just big enough to make 16 panels from, the second batch I have been letting acclimate to the shop.  First the block of wood for several weeks, then the panels for a day, then soaked in a bucket of linseed oil for 24 hours...  Here is a shot after pulling them out of the oil.  Now we're back to letting them acclimate more so see what happens.

In this state where the panels are sized and planed on both sides if they warp or twist even slightly the game is off.  The good news in that case would be another wood added to the Illinois wood butcher's list of woods I've butchered which is a secret list of woods to avoid for myself and possibly others as well.




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/06/20 at 02:37:06




As of yesterday I believe I have added all of the ones that Bob and I built in October to the Tiny Radial Page in small groups of two or three spaced several days apart.  So far the longest a pair has lasted on the page was 8.5 hours and that particular pair was posted in the middle of the night.

So what you see on the table here are mostly all exotics I've been working on since Bob left while waiting for more drivers.

The paint can is full of oil.  A Tiny Radial fits in there perfectly.  So I have been dipping each one after it is completed to get a better seal.

The woods on the table are Bocote, Bloodwood, Granadillo and African Leopardwood.

   


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by pursuitofnow on 11/06/20 at 16:00:42

These are all beautiful and I can't wait to get lucky enough on a page refresh to actually buy a pair. I've kept a tab open since they debuted and overtime I hit refresh and nothing is ever available. Congrats to everyone who has been successful in buying some.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by DPC on 11/06/20 at 16:21:14

You are doing the right thing.  Found mine in the middle of the night.  My fat fingers were flying filling out the order.  Got lucky!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by mperdue63 on 11/06/20 at 21:01:42

Got lucky X2 too! Great little speakers.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/07/20 at 02:08:45

I'll be putting a Birdseye Maple pair. #48 on there this weekend and possibly #49 in Bubinga if I have time to finish that pair.  I know that doesn't really help much, but it is what it is. : )

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/07/20 at 02:28:48


To celebrate pair number fifty, We did something rather special, and have decided to auction the pair on eBay. The Auction will be a no-reserve auction starting at $1.00 and will be take place the week ending on Novermber 25th.  I will probably link to the auction once I have posted it here on the forum, however I am hopeful that if you just search for "Decware Tiny Radial" it will come up.  This is a Maple pair that I painted and hydro-dipped followed by a few clear coats of lacquer for protection.

I'll be listening to them until they sell, so they are likely to be broken-in when you get them.



https://decware.wistia.com/medias/0pf3ggzq01

Enjoy  :)




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Brian on 11/07/20 at 02:49:20

pursuitofnow said:  "I've kept a tab open since they debuted and overtime I hit refresh and nothing is ever available."

Wow! These things are selling like Hotcakes! I had no idea.

Birdseye Maple ought to be real beauties. My favorite wood since I was a boy looking at rifle stock blanks in the Gunsmith's catalog.  

That Granadillo is my favorite slab in that picture collection, those are going to be showy.

Brian

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/10/20 at 05:27:47

UPDATE BLOODWOOD...

The first pair were indeed a failure.  Too much cracking and crowning they weren't even perfectly square anymore.

Dipping the panels I showed you into the oil for 24 hours was a total waste of time.  I have figured out that basically no oil penetrates the end grain because the straws are too small or the oil is way too thick..... and the face of the wood never soaks in anything.  Already after a couple days tiny cracks beginning to develop on the ends and the panels starting to cup.  It was build them now of just throw away the panels.

I got the idea to use ultra runny super glue that is way runnier than water, and the bloodwood drank that like crazy.  It was amazing really.  Anyway, this instantly stopped the cracking and shrinking process.  I tried lacquer last time and panels cracked anyway.  So the super glue is magic in this case.

I built a perfect pair using this technique and they came out great. I'll post some pics of them later.

Meanwhile I took the opportunity to see what one looked like with fire coming out of it and it looked pretty damn cool but not as cool as it did with fire going into it when I reversed the video... so check this out we have a new exotic kind of wood - fire wood!



https://decware.wistia.com/medias/pu7bvaiojd





Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by mperdue63 on 11/11/20 at 18:50:55

I'm really enjoying the magical walnut Tiny Radials in my office. The Taboo amp and a small sub. really helps!  ;)
" alt="" border="0" />[/img]

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Melvin on 11/12/20 at 13:19:09

Just wanted to poke my head in and update. I’m loving the TR’s even more now that I’ve swapped components in/out to find just the right mix (sig). In particular, the Fleawatt has good synergy with the TR’s, which to my ears, really show their stuff with the volume cranked up a bit.

Reluctantly, I removed the sub due to room issues. I recently ripped up the carpeting leaving bare hardwood. Not good. I’m still contemplating the floor situation and when the room is finished (God only knows when) I’ll revisit. Surprisingly, I’m not missing the sub as much as expected.


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by x2turbo on 11/16/20 at 04:17:59

Are there plans to sell the 3D printed lens?

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/16/20 at 17:24:05



Santa's pair have just been listed!

Here is the link the eBay auction:  https://www.ebay.com/itm/224237028790

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/16/20 at 17:25:31

Yes, I will be putting some of those on the page hopefully over the holidays once the next batch arrives.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Archie on 11/16/20 at 18:31:51

Ha ha.  I just put in the first bid.  Normally I'd wait till the last seconds to bid but I want Steve the have a Merry Christmas and get a ton for these!   :D

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Dominick on 11/16/20 at 21:27:30

Yeah Archie...I couldn’t resist either.  I had to follow suit behind you and throw out the second bid.  Let’s bid these Holiday Radials up and give Steve a Merry Christmas for all the hard work he has put into this project.  

Dom

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by x2turbo on 11/16/20 at 23:42:24

Thanks Steve, I'll keep an eye open for the lenses. I'm being told by PE that the drivers will be shipped on 11/20. Fingers crossed

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/17/20 at 03:42:19

mperdue63, great picture!  That is representative of the ideal application for these speakers... exactly what they were designed for : ). Looks great!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/17/20 at 03:46:39

Melvin,

I listened to these speakers for months before I ever heard them with a sub ; )

And you're right, tweaking around them pays off big time.  They can go from amusing, to amazing with the right amps, wire, etc., and I believe it is actually well worth it.

In the near field, with great components and wire, it is astonishing what they can actually do.

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/17/20 at 03:48:21

Xrturbo,  That would great, I hope to see everyone get what they need, as well as myself, as I have several pair of enclosures already built waiting for drivers ; )

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/17/20 at 04:01:42

The Bubinga pair coming soon is just about done.  I'll be installing the drivers and testing this week.  I have been waiting for more lenses.  While the wood lenses or my 3D printed lenses are nice, they require an hour to sand and paint.  The nylon lenses I am having made are laser sintered where a nylon powder is melted in layers by a laser.  These come with a prefect textured finish and are made from black nylon so no finishing.  Just take them out of the bag and glue them on.  Plus you can't break one.  They are expensive, but since they eliminated an hour of labor, they are worth it.







Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/17/20 at 04:14:00


So the last block of wood to cut up was the Bocote...



I decided this time I wanted to see how thick I could make a pair.  This idea came to me when I was editing the original Tiny Radial Video because the sound I heard on that video was slightly different that what I'm used to a Tiny Radial Sounding like.

That first prototype pair, which my wife stole from me, was basically carved out of a solid block of wood so the enclosure walls ended up being over a 1/2 inch thick on average.

I thought those speakers had more bass.  That is to say when you listen to them without a subwoofer.  And not to get sidetracked, but I have been spending a lot of time listening to that 100.00 subwoofer with the Tiny Radials and man is that combination something special.  Especially when you put on electronic or dance music and turn the sub way up... there is a place where the sound re-blends if you will, and it become dense, powerful and seamless, like you were standing in a night club.  It's just amazing how well the blend is with such thick bass.  Most speakers would thicken out and loose it with half as much bass.  These just shine and somehow take that thick heavy house shaking bass and keep it focused, tight, centered, controlled, and harmonic.  I've really never seen anything quite like it.  Nor heard for that matter.

It takes me back to when Decware was a commercial sound company in the early 1990's doing night clubs where bass was the main focus.  I made clubs that had insane amounts of bass.  Enough that you felt it in your pants and chest when you drove by on the street outside.  With a dance floor made up of a circular array of say 768 of these 1.5 inch Tiny Radial drivers I would have been able to more the double the bass.

So where was I....


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/17/20 at 04:21:02




So here is the block cut into 8 equal panels... each pushing 3/4 inch before getting machined flat.  This is going to stress the system, but I think it can do it fine.

The router operations are just going to take 3 Times as long since it has to be set so deep (high).


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/17/20 at 04:24:56




These are over twice as thick as normal.

As expected, the system worked, but it just took 3 times longer than a 5/16 panel thickness.  That's OK, if there is a gain to be had... we shall see.  

:)




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/17/20 at 04:27:39


 

So that's a trip... they are so thick that the corner posts disappear inside the walls!!!

Yup, they're feeling pretty heavy.  Bocote is heavy to begin with, and this feeling great.  It's not as heavy as Bloodwood, but I'm mad at Bloodwood right now.




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/17/20 at 04:32:18


 

Here you can really grasp how thick they are.  Interestingly...  within 24 hours of this picture, this very view became full of cracks in the end grains of each panel, I would say around 80, 20 per panel. Once again, the super thin super glue poured into the end grain drops down into those cracks literally to the top of the speaker where it drips out the other end.

So yea, I had to save these with super glue, which had I really grasped what was possible with it during the Burl nightmares, well I am sure it would have been more than helpful.




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/17/20 at 04:41:33




Those square red oak dowels go all the way through the speaker.  These are what the plinth is glued ( or screwed) to.  

My guess is that these will either sound like crap or better than ever.  Can't wait to find out.







Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/17/20 at 04:47:46


 

I am not going to put the plinth on yet...  two reasons:

1) I have solid steel plinths on order like the one Donnie showed us awhile back.  I was as a result inspired to have some made. They will weigh many times the almost weightless wood one by comparison.  All Tiny Radials, but especially this one, well let's just say I can't wait to hear what it will do.

2) This is so heavy it doesn't even need a plinth, and it possibly might sound better without one at all, so some testing over the next few weeks.





Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/17/20 at 05:07:50




Here is what they look like without the plinths and right now they are playing with the hard wood corner posts just acting as feet.

While the thickness of the wood is the obvious factor, having no plinth with this kind of density may actually be more appropriate.  We will see.

I can tell you after listening to 50 pair from this same exact spot these are noticeably better in every category.  My sub is temporarily un connected while some repairs to furnace are being done here in the shop so I couldn't listen to it with a sub if I wanted to.  

As always I am listening to electronic music to move that woofer for a fast break-in and man it's really nice sounding. Frankly when this project started I thought, "yea, nice novelty speaker that doesn't actually suck...
" but now we have gone safely beyond that.

These speakers with zero break-in sound noticeably improved, so knowing me, things will migrate in this direction. Talk has already taken place about carving one from a solid block of wood using a CNC router, which would end up being the same max thickness as this one I made.

Of course, unless I buy a CNC router myself there is no guarantee anything will come of it, and I can already say that probably buying a shaper  or two to replace the routers would be far more effective and save God knows how many hours of dicking around with a CNC machine. My laser cutter was enough for me... a lesson in how to make a 2K eBay special cost more than an 8K American one.

These sound so refined I'd be willing to bet the difference might be able to be measured.  I might do that when the steel plinths arrive... measure the stock Tiny Radial with the wood plinth vs the steel plinth and so on.

One thing I noticed, on a normal Tiny Radial paired with a 2 watt Zen Triode amplifier, turned to clipping (usually 3/4 volume) the speakers will dance on the table they are setting on.  And the cone excursion is at least 1/8 inch.  On this pair, I can't make them move, and the speaker cone only moves half as far and I can turn the amp up louder.  Probably at least 1.5 to 2 dB louder.  A more powerful amp I can see easily 3 dB which is to say the density of the enclosure has literally doubled the power handling.

Sorry it's a sickness... I always get sucked into finding out what the window boundaries are (how thick vs. how thin for example) and continually jack with it until it can't get any better without becoming something else.  So in the case of Tiny Radials two ideal peaks have emerged... one for the best thickness for manufacturing and one for best sound quality that takes three times longer.  

The thing is that before this experiment is over I wouldn't be surprised to find that the 5/16 thickness panels which the vast majority of Tiny Radials have been built to lend themselves to heavy bass settings on a subwoofer which is to say if you are going to be using a subwoofer it's possible that the standard 5/16" thickness may blend better with the sub than these thicker versions.

But as a stand alone speaker, with no bass augmentation of any kind, clearly this is the top edge of that window where the best sound can be had.  Interesting, since this thicker version will add somewhere between 100 and 200 dollars American to the price, and the subwoofer is only 100 dollars American, which would sound better, the sub with 5/16 Tiny Radials or a pair of super heavy Tiny Radials without a sub....

That's a question that for the majority I already know the answer to. : )









Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 11/17/20 at 22:46:52

Well heck Steve, there was no reason for you to have a steel plinth made, I'll give you the ones I have made.

I'd even deliver them. It would give me a reason to see my friend in Morton!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/18/20 at 02:25:04

Donnie, you're welcome to visit any time.  I didn't have a pair made, I had a lot made.  Already know it's going to work well, so I want to be able to put them into production. : )


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Nick324 on 11/18/20 at 21:52:54

Honestly Steve these are great desktop speakers. My own are one of the slightly thicker Prototype pairs you made early on, not as thick as these but fairly thick by what you wrote about them. I have plenty of choices to pick from for my desk and these are my preference for about 80% of my listening. I mix up the amps and DACs but the speakers are pretty steady at this point. I think with a few more modifications you really will have a small speaker that hits well above its “weight class”. Great job and keep the ideas flowing!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/20/20 at 03:16:44

Thanks Nick,

Are you using a sub with them?


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Nick324 on 11/20/20 at 10:24:27

Yes i have them dialed in w/ a subwoofer. It’s not an expensive one either and they work just fine with it for most of my listening pleasure. On the days where for whatever reason my mood hits for more volume or just music that requires bigger speakers i have alternates that sit next to them and i simply swap taps and the amp. They are such a great compliment to my overall desk set-up and enjoyment though that they have taken the primary spot and i just went ahead and built myself a nearfield  room for the rest of the equipment and speakers i used to have in my office.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by deucekazoo on 11/20/20 at 20:36:38

Steve, question on the dimensions. With the thicker wood, the outside stays the same size and the inside gets smaller? Does the inside need a certain volume? From your picture with the driver it seems the outside is the same size on all thickness of wood, is that correct?
Thanks,
John

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/21/20 at 23:21:58

Yes, the outside dimension never changes.   With the one I did, the area left is apron the area of the passive.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by x2turbo on 11/22/20 at 04:47:14

Could you achieve some of the same results by filling the void in the cabinet with lead shot?

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/22/20 at 05:29:29

Sure, if you glued the shot to the inside walls that would work well.  You can't actually fill it, because there is a passive radiator inside that lives 2 inches below the driver and 4 inches above the bottom.




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by x2turbo on 11/22/20 at 06:11:54

I forgot about the passive radiator. I finally get my hands on a pair this Wednesday. I have Bubinga, Padauk and Canarywood on the way as well. I'm going to build each of the kids a pair for xmas.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by SteveLuck on 11/25/20 at 08:25:20

Been keeping my fingers crossed for parts express to come through and it looks like my order has finally left the US and is on it's way down under to NZ.  Two pairs of Tiny Radials to build, one for my sister and one for me.  

Also building DML panels for my nephews bedroom.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKIye4RZ-5k

Hard to believe they work at all let alone sound quite good on 5mm foam board.  Waiting for 30mm EXPs insulation to arrive at local DIY store. 5mm foam board gets a bit of a vibe on that should go when the thicker panel is used.  Not high end Audio but not a bad starting point for a teenager.

Have fun and happy building to all those working from Steve's plans now their PE orders have been dispatched.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/26/20 at 05:18:53


I am also still waiting for drivers and the lens order was delayed due to QC issues so I am also waiting for those... meanwhile  

Today, while going through my scrap wood shelf I found some Wenge panels I started once and abandoned because the Wenge didn't like the pattern router.  Now I also have jigs for the table saw so I can cut the panels with no splintering, so I did.

They went together without any issues.  I'll see how they look tomorrow.




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/29/20 at 00:31:14

UPDATE on the Super Heavies

I weighed a Bubbinga Tiny Radial as a reference at it came out to 589 grams (1.3 lbs)

I weighed the extra thick Bocote at 884 (1.95 lbs)

Then I replaced the wood plinth with a solid steel plinth like the one Donnie posted a while back.  It alone weighs 498 grams (1.1 lbs).

So the total weight of the Super Heavy came to 1383 Grams (3.05 lbs.).  :)    

...it's an ass kicker too!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 11/29/20 at 01:57:22

Sounds like a "Heavy Metal" speaker if there ever was one.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Bottlehead on 11/29/20 at 04:50:26

Also sounds like a good reason to pick up a second pair!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 11/29/20 at 19:18:20

I have 73 people on the wish list, most waiting for their first pair!  Suffice it to say I'm looking at ways to deal with that.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Brian on 11/30/20 at 05:38:30

Has the three layer Pagoda roof become a part of the Tiny Radial speaker line?

Brian

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 12/04/20 at 21:27:44

Hi Brian,

The short answer is not yet.  However I will be adding the 3D lenses to the page over the holidays so that people can purchase them separately.

My long term plan is to have 3 sizes of lens so that the stack remains tapered.

Sadly what relaxation time I usually spend making Tiny Radials was lost because I was 6 days with the flu and got absolutely nothing done anywhere, so of course now I am behind on everything.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by DPC on 12/04/20 at 21:49:52

Bummer!  Sorry to hear about the flu, but, you should take some comfort knowing of all the pleasure your products have brought to our homes.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by SteveLuck on 12/05/20 at 00:29:18

Drivers arrived this week from Parts Express- just need to take some brave pills now and measure three times before cutting the expensive Walnut once.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Brian on 12/05/20 at 03:36:09

Hi Steve,
I am sorry about the flu taking away your leisure time.
I am glad to learn that the lens stack is going to be a part of the future of these speakers. I thought it was one of the more fascinating introductions you have brought to us.
In my imagination I have added it to a full size speaker using a 1.4 inch compression driver aimed upward.  The way you describe the lens, I think it would make unnecessary the adding of a tweeter to one of these mid-drivers.  I find that exciting.

Brian

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Duncan Taylor on 12/06/20 at 05:16:22

Wanted to add my observations after a couple of days with my new Tiny Radials.

I work as a testing technician at The Music Room, and test and listen to lots of hifi gear every week. I received the speakers on Thursday and immediately began burning them in with bass-heavy music. I was also burning in a new set of speaker cables I made for them after reading Steve's experiences with different cabling and the TRs. I had made a set of 40mm copper foil ribbon cables and decided not to group them together but let the positive and negative leads fall where they may.

The first night was not too impressive! Both elements needed to break in properly, the speakers perhaps a bit more than the cables.

By the next day, they were starting to open up, and I listened to the TRs on a variety of amplifiers, including a Willsenton R8 tube amp, an Inspire tube amp by Dennis Hadd, a Pass Labs amplifier, a pair of PS Audio class D (A input stage) amps, etc.

What I noticed was that the speakers really like tubes and linear amplifiers, and aren't the biggest fans of class D, although the 3D imaging was still interesting if not impressive with those class D amps. I noticed that on my desk, I liked the frequency balance of the TRs best when they were just forward of my elbows on the desk, i.e. quite close to my ears. The soundstage was very impressive, floating high above the speakers and quite spherical in shape.

Where things really got interesting was when I turned on my main desktop speakers as well as the TRs, driven from the same class D amplifier, and spaced the TRs very wide, so they would not confuse the direct sound coming from the main speakers, but add to the dimensionality of the soundstage. My main speakers are very good, and set up well to cast a great center image and decently wide stage, but with the TRs in place it was.... other worldly. The largest soundstage I've ever heard in my life, with huge separation between images, cement-lock of images in space and still a very lifelike and focused center image.

To anyone adding these to your desk who may also have other speakers in the mix, I urge you to give this a try!

Later in the evening I went over to my engineer friend Darren's house (he's a hifi product designer), and we listened for a couple hours to his analog system. He's got a very nice VPI table, and he put his 4th or 5th best cartridge on it (the Lyras live on his Kuzma table in the other room) and it went balanced into an Audio Research PH5, balanced into a PS Audio BHK preamp and then to a PS Audio BHK amplifier. Giant Dunlavy SCIVa speakers finish the system. Suffice it to say, this system can vividly reproduce vinyl, even though the cart (and the arm) left some to be desired in his opinion (I'm a digital guy - my mouth was hanging open no matter what was on the table!)

At the end of the listening session I pulled out my Mini Torii and the Tiny Radials and set them on the floor, and we got down on the carpet and fed the amp a signal from the upcoming PS Audio TSS DAC (his is a two chassis prototype - finished product will be in the ~$25K range) via the BHK preamp with NOS tubes.

Despite getting our asses kicked for hours on his main system featuring 6.5-foot tall floorstanders, he and I were spellbound and dumbfounded by what the Mini Torii was able to do with the TRs. We had to be careful with the input volume because that Mini Torii was struggling a little to power the TRs well, but we just sat there for another hour or two listening to track after track and "bathing" in the 3D sound.

We tried one other amplifier with them - another Class D thing with a Bluetooth connection - and it was very unpleasant compared to the Mini Torii fed by that amazing source gear. The high frequency information was largely gone, the sound collapsed down to the individual speakers, and we both groaned and moved the tube amp back into position after maybe a song and a half? Maybe less.

Ultimately, this is what I came away with. When powered by a very linear, well designed tube amplifier, using excellent cables, these Tiny Radials are impressive enough to be almost a distraction on the workplace desktop. They're just about too good for words, doing things you can't hear anywhere else but in the close up zone of their omni radiation. At a distance, and from a lower height, I could see they would benefit from added high frequency radiation via extra lenses. But bottom line, they don't respond well to class D amplification, or cheap amplification in general.

Unless. Unless you're adding them as part of basically a 4.1 channel stereo system where they add soundstage width and texture detail to a pair of speakers that fares better on lesser amplification, like my desktop monitors. I'm still scratching my head about why they're so much more revealing of amplification than my desk speakers, which admittedly have external crossovers stuffed with excellent, expensive parts. But the valley of quality between a fine tube amp and a cheap class D is much smaller on my desktop monitors than the giant chasm that exists for the Tiny Radials between amplifiers.

My friend Darren was so enthralled by what he was hearing with the Mini Torii and the TRs with my ribbon cables that I had to leave them at his house this weekend so he could geek out some more.

Steve, you've made yet another head scratchingly other worldly product, and my hat's off to you for keeping this audio hobby interesting and exploring new ideas. They also look superb, and match the walnut of my Mini Torii well. Thank you!!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 12/06/20 at 22:54:33




This is the Bocote Super Thick, Super Heavy with the steel plinth.

This is so far the best sounding pair I've ever made.


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 12/06/20 at 23:13:10

So nice!
Steve, you got the skills to pay the bills!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 12/07/20 at 01:20:02


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 12/07/20 at 02:20:04



The steel plinth... turns any Tiny Radial into a Super Heavy.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 12/07/20 at 02:24:54

Duncan,  Thanks for the great review!  While I don't have a lot a bad sounding amplifiers to try, I have already experienced enough of the Tiny Radial's unforgiving nature to know you are right about the amplifiers.  When you hook Tiny Radials to toy amps with cheap cables, they sound like toys. When you take them seriously they get serious.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by SteveLuck on 12/26/20 at 07:13:26

Finally got time to start my build - been gathering tools and materials for months but the delay on the tangbands held things up a lot.  Fueled on Turkey and Xmas pudding I made very good progress today.  I had a very small mitre lock router bit too small to use it the way Steve has with the dowel in the corner but perfect used as intended to create the mitres in the corners - fingers crossed the corners will look good when I start sanding.  I've chosen some 30mm beach block-board offcuts for bases and tapered it to match the main body.  Should give it some weight in the base and stop them toppling over in a modest shake here NZ.  Havea for the lenses.  Bottoms of the lenses ripped up when I cut the bevels on them - too close to the centre hole - but I'd made them from 18mm  so no problem sanding them back to the thickness on the original plans (about 12mm).  More tomorrow.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 12/26/20 at 16:46:22


Congrats!  They look great so far!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by SteveLuck on 12/29/20 at 09:18:40

Very pleased with how these turned out, two identical pairs completed.  I made a lot of work for myself using surplus stainless standoffs and cap head screws to secure the base and driver.  I used a hard wax (Osmo Poly X high build hard) for the first time.  Several coats have given a very smooth but satin finish.

I'm giving one pair to my sister with a very simple cheap chinese 1969 John-Linsey Hood designed Class A amp chosen because it's relatively child friendly.  Crazy that they could design sweet sounding transistor amps back in 1969 yet only a decade later most mainstream transistor amps in the shops sounded terrible.  I bought my first valve amp to celebrate my 21st birthday a long time ago!!!.

I bought anti cables to give away with them, that was a mistake they sound great but if there was much more spring in them the cables would lift the speakers off the table.  They'll need bending into shape to prevent that when installed.

This little combination I'm testing (before giving away) is warm, fast and gets your toes tapping niceley.  Non fatiguing - will be a long listening session tonight.  Cheers Steve for putting the plans up, bit of challenge but well worth the effort.


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/14/21 at 02:58:18


UPDATE:

Didn't know when I started the Tiny Radial Project that our amplifier business would explode to somewhere between 5 and 7 times normal due to Covid and a series of reviews on our amplifiers. I also had no idea that the demand for Tiny Radials would be so high and stay that way for so long!

So while waiting for my next batch of drivers to arrive I have been looking at ways to make a Tiny Radial faster so we can add them to the page faster.  

I gave up on 3D printing the enclosure because normal 3D printing leaves a texture and the plastics don't really machine well.  Takes 8 hours to print one, and then probably another hour of sanding putty finishing per unit. And after all that they don't weight enough and sound like crap. Resin 3D printing can be done with no texture but takes even longer and the resin cost is absurd for this application where you want it solid. If you have it printed for you by any one of the zillion 3D printing services the cost is way higher. Fail on both counts.

I've been thinking about trying to cast one for a long time, but that involves making molds.  Ugh.  

My first attempt was to cast a single panel from a hi-density white resin because that was about as simple a mould as I could think to make so I might be able to handle it. The mold turned out usable, and behold... a solid white resin panel in less than 30 minutes.  Just need 7 more, so I made 3. I glued the panels together just as I do the wood ones and concluded that by the time I put the wood sticks inside, and did all the assembly I can actually make them out of wood quite a lot faster.

This leaves the dreaded and inevitable one-piece casting from a single mould. I'm still working on that, but I'm getting usable results that can be tested. I made the inside round instead of square so I could pull the tapered Tiny Radial out of the mould.

Anyway that was a major improvement. I can see it working when I get it all fine tuned over time. I found a particular resin in my trials that is so dead I think it beats concrete.  That got me excited, as a speaker enclosure geek I have never seen anything this dead for the mass. And I think I could make these in less time offering both these and wood ones in the future.

Here is a video I made of the sound of each enclosure.



https://decware.wistia.com/medias/idua8pcszw

Just would hate for anyone to think we're sleeping on the job around here! ; )

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Archie on 01/14/21 at 06:44:53

Steve, ever consider boring out a block of wood?

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by SteveLuck on 01/14/21 at 09:16:20

By Having a bore through the centre the same diameter top and bottom you now have the opportunity to hold the whole assembly together using just four long bolts provided the lense supports can be placed at the same PCD as the speaker mounting holes.  That would speed things up quite a bit.  

In terms of material cost I thought about using mdf and wrapping it in leather look vinyl for a slightly steam punk look for a lot less money than I spent on the walnut.

Damping is interesting I had AE1 MK1 speakers for a bit, MDF enclosures with a concrete lining they worked well.  

This guy on youtube laminates the enclosures of the voight tubes he makes with a rubbery coating between the wood laminates.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEh01PX-q9I  Skip to about 35mins in.

This sort of engineering and manufacturing challenge is fun to get your head around. :)

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by JBzen on 01/14/21 at 13:13:35


Quote:
Just would hate for anyone to think we're sleeping on the job around here! ; )


LOL! Who would think that.  ;)


Quote:
, ever consider boring out a block of wood?


Archie, I think that would create more work, be a waste of material, and produce an unstable product. If the TR was set in a controlled environment this would be ideal and worth a try!


Quote:
a bore through the centre the same diameter top and bottom you now have the opportunity to hold the whole assembly together using just four long bolts


SteveLuck, I think attaching the bottom of the TB driver to a tube would create a negative effect of the sound. I do like the idea of for long bolts for assembly.

IMO, offering the Tiny Radials in five or six wood species, outsourcing panel milling, and a slight redesign for assembly would meet the demand. The four panels could be assembled without the inside square dowels. The plinth could be offset with small round dowels inserted into drilled holes of the panel assembly and plinth. Fours holes can be drilled into the plinth matching the drivers mounting holes and long bolts will complete assembly. Furthermore a special lens mount could be created/printed tieing into the assembly bolts.

This would change the appearance slightly.

John


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 01/14/21 at 21:14:00


Quote:
Steve, ever consider boring out a block of wood?


That's how I made the first pair or prototypes but I couldn't find a bit that was long enough and the right diameter.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by JBzen on 01/15/21 at 19:03:46

But...cut the block of wood length wise in half then flip the pieces and glue. Mount the wood in a lathe and gouge out one end as far as possible making a flare. Using a drill press with a bit the size of the driver drill out the other end. The result will resist warping but still be time consuming.  I may give this a try when time permits.

John

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 02/06/21 at 03:38:22


Oddly enough I have a 2-5/8 bit on the way. It will have to be sharp to deal with exotic end-grain. Anyway If I can drill a solid block I will try that again and see how it compares to the now refined standard 4 panel method.

I should think the final result of drilling a solid block would be superior based on my work with the cast resin Tiny Radials. Those have a round interior giving the maximum amount of mass possible for the shape to work.

I got to listen to one, this one, and it's pretty interesting.  It's sooo clean.  Probably the best bass as well.  The wood has more midrange which is actually the wood itself vibrating, but it's not as clean.  I like both.  You need both ; )



I have been balls deep in molds.  The learning curve sucks, like all learning curves we hate to invest the time... can't we just download the experience into our brain somehow? ; )

Anyway, I've done six prototypes and 3 molds, all were almost good. Along the way is experimenting with both the casting resins and the mold materials. Holy crap is it expensive. I have a real good feeling about the investment though.

You can see in the picture that the mold, which btw took me 3 tries to make an absolutely perfect Tiny Radial. Perfect height, width, depth, and perfectly flat on all four faces, and perfectly square with perfect edges top and bottom. It's so hard to do. When I say perfect, I mean +/- 5 thousandths. Once I managed that a week later, I realized the wood grain was all wrong. I used African Paduke.  So then I started over and made a perfect one in walnut. And it IS perfect. So now I'm working on the molds but even this first attempt when painted black would fool most into thinking it's real wood. Until you pick it up of course and or knock on it. Dead as a tree.

So I've been busy.  Also there is more good news... see the following posts.





Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 02/06/21 at 03:54:04




I now have high quality solid nylon Tiny Radial Lenses available on the Tiny Radial Page.  This means you can purchase them and stack them for more treble response as talked about earlier in this thread.

Steve



Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 02/06/21 at 04:00:03


I have someone on standby to do the hydro-dipping and finishing. He's good, and expensive. So a lot of things are happening.



After doing a few myself to see what one might look like I loved it and knew I had to find a professional. I think this is going to be really good.





Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 02/06/21 at 04:04:15





I also have the solid steel 85mm plinths available on the site. These can be sanded and finished to look just like the original wood plinths but add a shit load of weight to the Tiny Radial giving it a more solid sound.


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by DPC on 02/06/21 at 11:23:28

Evolution at it's best!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 02/06/21 at 13:21:40

Steve,
You know that I used to make molds for a living?
I just thought that I would bring that up.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Archie on 02/06/21 at 18:06:01

You'll put lights inside, of course! 8-)

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/01/21 at 03:51:55


I have been, despite the apparent stagnation, very productive with the Tiny Radial Project. I have finally after. 6 weeks and a dumpster full of failures... perfected the holy grail mold after making five less than perfect prototypes and trying 6 different resins.  

I'm so excited because in the smooth mold I cast a dozen tiny radials with polyurethane resin made in the USA that just rocks! These are on their way to my hydro dipper guru in Chicago to be dolled up and will soon be showing up on the Tiny Radial page for sale.

Meanwhile I have the more important of the the two, which is a perfect silicon mold of just the right thickness with a perfect wood grain print that is so accurate you can't tell it's not real wood. I knew it was possible, but it only took countless failures to realize.

Anyway, today I finally cast the first test in a pure white resin so that I could dye the grain print to examine it for defects. When you use a black resin, it looks great even when it's not. So this is to magnify errors. Also the resin is waterproof and the dye is water based, so it just beads up on the surface. You have to wipe it continually until it drys which takes about 10 minutes. So it's not about making it look good it's about getting it into the pours to inspect the grain print.



So you can see it passes. It's just weird because this is a walnut grain pattern in what appears to be a light colored wood.







Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/01/21 at 04:02:07








Here is another view where I sanded the top of the cabinet to reveal the white resin underneath the dye.


You can see there is a 2-5/8" cardboard tube cast into the enclosure. Remember, sound takes on the characteristic of of the last surface it contacts. We want the sound inside the enclosure to be smooth and taunt since it comes out of the bottom of the enclosure.

The unit behind this is made from white oak with a steel plinth.

These cast models will be a far deader enclosure than the wood models and have more accuracy, less distortion.  In some cases this will come off as less midrange, because the wood becomes part of the midrange. I love the sound of both for different reasons and could live with either.  

I should be able to make black walnut cast models as kind of a standard unit for the cast series that will greatly help with the demand for Tiny Radials.  Those will start appearing on the page for sale in about 4 weeks or so.

So hang in there, there will be more Tiny Radials on the page for sale in both the resin and wood very soon!  And they just keep getting better and more diverse!

Wait until you see the hyro-dipped high density resin models that are in the works! These too will be showing up on the page around the same time.

Steve




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/01/21 at 04:29:10


Quote:
You know that I used to make molds for a living?
I just thought that I would bring that up.


Donnie, is that why you have that giant thing still stuck to your head?

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by HockessinKid on 03/01/21 at 16:04:42

Steve,

I was glad to see your update on the tiny radials project and progress you've made resin compounds & molds. It appears your creating what I can best describe as yet another incredible product for music lovers with limited budgets, but discerning ears. Thanks for all you and the Decware team do!

HK

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/03/21 at 03:23:08


Quote:
UPDATE on the Super Heavies

I weighed a Bubbinga Tiny Radial as a reference at it came out to 589 grams (1.3 lbs)

I weighed the extra thick Bocote at 884 (1.95 lbs)

Then I replaced the wood plinth with a solid steel plinth like the one Donnie posted a while back.  It alone weighs 498 grams (1.1 lbs).

So the total weight of the Super Heavy came to 1383 Grams (3.05 lbs.).  :)    

...it's an ass kicker too!


We have a new champion...

I have found new resins and the most hateful one to work with so far was a mineral resin that is like thick honey.  Not what you want when you're going for a bubble free finish without a pressure chamber... which I have btw, but have not used as of yet because I've been using low viscosity resins that are about like water for 2 minutes... and then they slowly turn to rock.

Anyway, this mineral resin was the cause of 2 of my countless failures, but now that I finally have a perfect mold I decided to use up whats left and make a single Tiny Radial with it. That way I could hear what it sounds like.

This stuff is like stone when it cures. So dense. So I put it together tonight to pair with my previous resin prototype so I could at least hear a pair of Tiny Radials made purely from resin. Since this thing is so heavy it would be a crime not to use the steel plinth, so of course I did.  

The final weight of this Tiny Radial came to 3500 Grams (7.716 lbs.) !!!

It is the one on the right. That beige is the natural color of the mineral resin and it is the first Tiny Radial to be cast in the perfect mold.  A mold that is all I have to show after 6 weeks of failed prototypes. I estimate this single mold to be worth about $5K.



The black prototype on the left is more like the resin I intend to use and it sounds great as well. It weighed in at a very respectable 2800 Grams (6.7 lbs.) !!!

The interior of these is round and cardboard lined - cast right into the resin - but the density of the enclosure is now so great that the energy is reflected back into the interior instead of being released through the wood at lower midrange frequencies. To fix that a foam absorber is inserted into 50% of the interior which turns those frequencies into heat. I was shocked how well that worked. When things are this miniaturized everything gets magnified... kind of ironic.

Anyway, we need to have a discussion about the sound.


Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/03/21 at 03:52:08


I made some videos with the phone again, out of amazement just like the very first pair of Tiny Radials that started all this.  I will post those soon.

When I had only one Resin model and used a Wood model for the other channel,  I was kind of on the fence as to which one I liked better.  The wood was more lively and had more midrange coming out of it.  The Resin was smoother and a lot cleaner.

So tonight, like so many evenings before, I sit here next to a pair giving them the acid test which is listening with the 2 watt Zen Triode directly connected to the 2 volt DAC and with no subwoofer.

It is the first time to actually hear a pair or resin models together without the disarming distraction of hearing more midrange and distortion from one side always making the other side sound a little weak. I guess the first thing that comes to mind to say about the sound, is that they almost don't sound like the same speakers. They do, but just so much more refined. It's just almost hard to believe.

They sound extraordinarily rich, warm, fluid, texturally exquisite, pristine. The wood ones make your face hurt from smiling so much, these won't do that. These are going to make your face melt from disbelief.

Listening to these as the evening progresses is getting me off really hard.  I just wasn't expecting this.  I've always loved these Tiny Radials but nothing is perfect, and those had no business sounding even 10% as good as they do.  So when I heard little distortions in the midrange midbass areas from the wood I just subconsciously excused it.

So I listen tonight and that same program is running in the background and it keeps pinging me that there is no data.  I just don't hear ANY of those tiny distortions that I thought were a permanent part of the program : )

I always wanted to hear a completely dense enclosure like this, but life size it would have cost a small fortune.  Well, Tiny Radials just got even more fun!  And there will be better availability.

When I stand in front of these setting a foot apart on my DAC playing some nice male vocals, I actually thought for a second, boy, I wish my listening room sounded like that... but then it actually does in many ways depending on which speakers you select.  The point is the actual listening room vs. the Tiny Radials on the desktop just got a lot closer.

Steve





Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by HockessinKid on 03/03/21 at 14:07:57

👍👍👍

HK

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/04/21 at 03:02:29



https://decware.wistia.com/medias/vyoh8jcq7w

https://decware.wistia.com/medias/n1ktxphqif

https://decware.wistia.com/medias/1k7i0rlopp

These are the first three songs I heard on this pair of high density, high performance, solid cast-resin Tiny Radials.

Tonight I am finishing the first production model based on these prototypes. It's really coming together great too! Something is helping me. Things like the perfect black resin that is working too good to be true, the way the binding posts are now pounded in under high compression and soldered directly with no hardware, the way the driver fits perfectly into the cardboard sleeve which self-centers it with a very snug fit,  the way the screws hold in this resin.  The way the sleeve controls expansion and contraction of the the cabinet against the driver. The way the sticks were eliminated from the design, replaced by 70 hardness clear rubber feet that now set on the plinth which has it's own 20 hardness black rubber feet. This totally changes the dynamics of how energy moves. The way that the final mold came out so perfect that not even Bob Ziegler would be able to tell these weren't solid walnut painted black. The way the damn things sound, and the way the power handling increased. They way the distortion dropped, and the resolution and imaging increased. Need I go on?  

If there's one thing I've learned since starting Decware and that is that the Audio Gods appreciate persistence and when they are pleased with result of your labors they let you know directly with a series of overwhelming things (results) that were unlikely to ever happen by chance. Remember, Audio Gods put faint thoughts in your mind. These compete with loud thoughts of your own. When you become attentive to this over and above your own ego, it gets their attention.  All great ideas happen like this, it's just that many of us don't realize we didn't think of it, more like we heard it and then repeated it.  When you give credit to the actual source, it makes great things happen.

Steve






Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/04/21 at 04:47:14

I'm listening to them right now on some Bob Moses at a level that would normally have the lighter woods nearly jumping off the table. I can't detect even a hint of distortion. Everything is as solid as a rock.  Something wonderful is happening here... I think we should consider tracking down the engineer of this amazing 1.5" Wideband driver and send him a pair of these speakers.


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/04/21 at 05:16:25

On a more serious note, anyone who has spent some time on the site, reading my articles, reading posts from people on this forum who has connected with the concept of this ultra-holographic sound stage that is somehow possible in a perfect dedicated listening space with only one chair in the middle, and quadratic diffusion on all four walls with treatments on the floors and ceiling... and yes, btw, it's heavily, but 95% of us/you will never experience it because of real-estate/economic conditions.  It's so sad, because when you experience it, life takes on another level of sparkle and dimension...

Well, here it is.  A pair of these, and a SE84UFO amplifier, which is what I'm listening to now, in fact it is a 2002 model that my wife DeVon built that is still ticking without a single glitch.  Anyway, point is, that a Zen amp and a pair of Tiny Radials setting on your table, or your computer desk, or on the arms of your recliner, or on the kitchen counter, bedroom dresser, it won't matter, because music will float in hyper specific 3D space that is miniaturized in presentation and maximized in space no matter where you sit, stand or rest.  It is the actual 3D sound stage that we all chase in our listening rooms reproduced 2 feet away from you and sounding like it's a 100 feet wide and 90 feet deep and 20 feet high.  Also when you move, it doesn't.  Just like real life.  You can clearly hear that in the videos.  It's a real testament to omnidirectional sound.

I am just amazed after all this journey with the Tiny Radial Project, that a 1.5" driver could have this kind of bass and dynamics.  The highs and midrange are disarming, the sounds so fast. Bells and chimes are so real you jump and turn to see who/what is there.

So if a guy came to me and said what is the rock bottom way cost wise to experience nirvana without using headphones and without having a good room and big speakers... I would say get a pair of these Tiny Radials, a 2.3 watt Decware amplifier and a DAC or Streamer to plug straight into the amp and set them on a table or desk. Set up to the desk or table. Press play. Have your mind blown. Blow it a second time by adding a sub.

It will be a real lesson in room acoustics because you can be sure your room never imaged as well and it wouldn't matter what you have spent in gear.  Literally a guy could be setting at his kitchen table or bar with a pair of Tiny Radials and a Zen Triode amp and be hearing things that his friends don't hear with their very expensive systems. And I mean very expensive.

This kind of imaging is what hooked me into this hobby because it was so beyond anything you would normally hear with a pair of speakers 3 feet from a wall in a persons home. Headphones won't do this either. Although good, this is hyper real and the depth is limited only by the recording.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/04/21 at 05:40:27



https://decware.wistia.com/medias/9gi02rc95r

The yellow link above is a video of the first production model of the High Performance Cast Resin and Steel Tiny Radial. When you watch the video you will see not only how perfect the original was but how perfect the mold was. This is what I knew was possible by someone who knew what they were doing, like perhaps Donnie. Don't worry Donnie I'm sure my garbage man wondered what the hell hit the dumpster recently and I told him my friend Donnie could have prevented it but Covid kept him away.

As you can see in the picture above, the cabinet sets on the steel plinth and the plinth sets on the surface. Both are so heavy they don't move but they are not glued together. This works to decouple the cabinet from the surface, especially if the surface is something flimsy. Some of the energy is absorbed by steel plinth and some reflected back to the absorber inside the cabinet. This is different than having it couple more directly to the surface it sets on.  

[smiley=tunes57.gif]

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by JBzen on 03/04/21 at 10:23:07

Nice work Steve!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 03/04/21 at 11:47:35

Steve,

I was told long ago that a true craftsman stood head and shoulders above his lesser peers because he was standing on his pile of scrap.

We learn by doing, we can sit around and debate until our ears fall off, but until someone puts things into action nothing really progresses.

The whole secret is being able to overcome your inevitable mistakes and fix them in a way that improves the product. It also helps to do this in a manor that is still profitable!
My bosses have always stressed the profitable part.

One of the greatest lessons that I have ever learned is a time where I made a drastic mistake on a gigantic piece of steel. I was prepared to be fired as it was probably a $20K mistake.
The boss came in and looked at what I had done and said "OK it has happened, no going back on that, so what do we do to fix it?). It was a great relief to me and we soon came up with a plan to fix the part and move on.
I learned, he learned and we still made money on the project.
And I know now to double check things a little closer than I had before.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by JBzen on 03/04/21 at 13:03:06

Ah Donnie!
I remember racking a roof after a weekend of decking and wall constructon with a gang of helpers. Being left with 3 helpers the boss put me in charge with plans and verbal picture on the roof construction. I proceeded to make framing out of 2×6 called for in the plans for the ceiling joist and nailed the ends to a 2×6 on edge ontop of the floor plates! Then carrying on with roof rafters birds mouth cut into 2×6 ceiling rafter box progress was to the point of sheating when the boss show up. He was not too happy with what he saw at first. He questioned me on why the roof was now going to be 5 1/4" more in elevation! I did not have an answer. Then he said that we can just add a soilder course on the brick. The owner to this day loves that brickwork!

John

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/05/21 at 05:14:47

Tonight I'm breaking-in the first pair one of which appears in the video.  It's funny, because I've sat here and listened to 60 pair of wood Tiny Radials break-in 5 feet away from me and some nights I was amazed and some nights I wasn't.  Those nights were followed by days of break-in before they sounded good.

These resin units don't seem to break-in.  So what was breaking-in on the wood ones, the wood?  Right now I am running them with the subwoofer to check the blend and I have to say that the combination sounds like a very sophisticated hi-end system MUCH larger than it actually is and that's where I think the fun in all this is.   These are wicked little speakers.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by JBzen on 03/05/21 at 12:24:14


Quote:
So what was breaking-in on the wood ones, the wood?


Could be the stresses of the assembly of wood are easing in with sweet vibrations together with the variety of materials being assembled in the wood TRs.

Resin, resin, and more resin...not much to break the ice!

[smiley=cool.gif]

John

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 03/06/21 at 16:18:01

Well I just ordered up a pair on the TangBand drivers.
Lets see how I can screw this up.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/07/21 at 04:07:01

The next batch of steel plinths I will have machined with the chamfer and the brushed finish.  I can do it by hand but results are somewhat effected by how much time I want to spend trying to get it perfect.  That will probably double the cost of those, but in this new design they are the focal point so it might be well worth it.  The speaker now works well with or without the plinth, the plinth just adds refinement by decoupling midrange frequencies from your desktop.





The current plinths are laser cut, or perhaps water jet. That's why there is a line in the center where the cutting starts.

I am still really getting off on the grain in this particular resin.  To make the actual real walnut model, I used only linseed oil as a finish. The kind that never dries.  That is what gave the mold such a deep grain.  And the resin is a perfect Matt finish with perfect color consistency.  Stained walnut would never be like that.  Painted walnut is also never like this because the paint fills in part of the grain reducing the dynamic contrast.  This is a look that you can't actually get from wood.  To maintain it you can use anything that doesn't build up, like armor all, furniture oils, light waxes that don't build up, some mist on high tech car polishes, or just soap and water.

These will be available with or without the plinth.  Also the plinths are available separately so if you get one without and decide to add one later it's no problem.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Rorschach on 03/09/21 at 00:25:36

  With all the emphasis on density of the Tiny Radial enclosure, it occurred to me to try casting them in cement. Concrete has been used in Thiel and B&W speakers at times. It has nearly three times the density of high density resin and essentially costs nothing. So with a milk carton as a mold, six cups of Portland cement, a 2.5 inch cardboard tube, some damping material and a TangBand driver all x 2. The dimensions are essentially identical to Steve's. These are prototypes with no consideration for aesthetics whatsoever at this juncture although I would christen them "The Bauhaus Edition" as they are solid blocks of concrete. I would include photos, but the method to do so is not comprehensible to me as yet.
   How do the sound? Rather trebly with a lack of bass, but very detailed. The lenses and a subwoofer may radically alter this sound along with countless other tweaks. They could never be made for commerce  due to the shipping weight and the liability issue should the speaker fall on the purchaser's foot.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/11/21 at 02:09:09

Welcome to the forum!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 03/11/21 at 02:19:38

Already tired of hand-finishing and sealing steel plinths, not to mention having them come unglued on the wood models.  So I am moving from laser cutting to full 3 axis machining.  These will be pre-finished with a metallic grey powder coat to match the binding posts.



A lot of the additional costs of improving these are being washed by lower labor costs.

Anyway, the first batch of these new high performance models sold out on the first day so we're working on adding more as always : )

Steve






Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Scott M on 03/11/21 at 22:52:38

Hey Steve,

I ordered a pair of your resin Tiny Radials a few days ago  They will go on my desk and be used as computer speakers, at least that is the current plan.  Would like to use a small solid state amp that can remain on 24/7.  Do you have any recommendations?

Thanks,
Scott

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Lon on 03/11/21 at 23:49:36

I am not Steve, but can recommend DAL Audio from personal experience. I owned one of their amps and have visited their shop. Nice product and people.

https://dalaudio.com/

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Scott M on 04/06/21 at 16:07:18

I bought a pair of these Decware Tiny Radials to use as desktop speakers.  This led to a realization with them that amp synergy is a very real issue.  Have driven them with a Loxjie A10 amp ($60 on Amazon) and Vista Audio Spark ($389 from Audio Art Cable).  The Loxjie class D amp is hands down better sounding than the much more expensive Vista class A/B amp with these speakers.  The Vista amp was very bass light.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/06/21 at 16:56:20


I have so far put a dozen pair of the HP Tiny Radials on the page and they have all vanished as fast as I put them there. Since both the cream colored ones and the black ones are all the same there is no reason to list them each separately as I do the wood ones so it may look like nothing is actually happening.  The only way to tell is to add them to cart and see if there is any in stock.  

This weekend I'll start another batch and maybe take some pics.  Also I have a couple pair of wood ones almost complete and will have some hydro dipped models by the end of the month with any luck!

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/13/21 at 04:01:03



UPDATE APRIL 2021


I have been training a Tiny Radial Elf in the finer arts of assembly which is helping immensely. He has the touch. You can see Tiny Radials on his bench.




Because of his help I have been able to put new Tiny Radials on the page at a rate of every few days, and usually not a single pair, but many. This continues, as we are working on another dozen pair, half of them are black and half of them are cream colored.








Soon I hope to have the machined steel plinths in stock, although with these resin models the plinth is optional for a reason. it would greatly help the wood models which are much lighter in weight.

Certainly optional is the ideal because then you can choose to energize the surface they set on, or decouple the speakers from it. Your choice. This is really helping to relieve the demand from what is becoming one of the most stalked pages on the Internet it seems.

So, it continues, and continues to grow and get better as we go !  








Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/13/21 at 04:37:32


EVEN BIGGER UPDATE!

For those who have been following this thread it is beginning to become understood that mass benefits this design by giving it more substantial bass performance and improving power handling to allow you to play them louder. And that there are many differences in the sound of the various woods at various thickness vs. different kinds of resins at different densities.

After hearing the changes resin models made to the sound, my mind went back to how can I make wood sound more like this, or better phrased, how can I make the solid wood Tiny Radials denser / thicker.

I came to the conclusion that if it wouldn't block the passive radiator too much, a full 3/4 of an inch instead of 3/8 of an inch would probably be ideal, but you would have to have a way to bore a hole in the end for the driver.

I tried this on several occasions myself, although with a mindset of boring through a solid block of wood and then tapering the sides into a Tiny Radial.

I failed every time because I don't have a real drill press.  Never realized I would need one.  My drill press is an entry level model that works great for bit diameters up to about 1 inch., or so I have come to realize.

Inject into the story a small German much like myself with that death grip on precision and an instant connection was realized which lead to a business relationship that developed into building all of our stock hardwood amp bases.  

Over the years the problem has been that because he is so good, he is so busy I actually feel guilty asking him to make our bases.

Nevertheless I can see he hates his job - custom cabinet jobs from HDTV indoctrinated customers driving him crazy year after year... so I have been trying to entice him to build more stuff for us.

Finally, I drove my ass over to his shop with a pair of Tiny Radials that I made, and explained that I would order no less than 20 pair at a time and there are no crazy designers or customers to deal with...  It's not final yet, but that German ability to always build something better than someone else - something I recognized in him and Bob Ziegler for that matter -

I'm pretty sure the way it went down is that one weekend he just said screw it, I need some my-time, doing something fun for once... We've all been there.

And sure enough, something wonderful happened... The Tiny Radial I left there with him, which was pretty damn good btw, challenged him to try and make a better one.  So he actually went for it and built them better than I do.  (I knew he could)  So as I write this I am listening to them and they sound EXTREMELY good.  It's the presence of the wood and the density blended in a way that is making me re-evalute things.  They are only half as heavy as my resin models with the steel plinth glued to the bottom... yet they somehow seem to sound just as good... without a plinth. 





See the corner pieces of darker wood reminiscent of the original Tiny Radials?  In this design, they are not needed, yet they are there... and better yet is how are they there... it's a little tricky.  That's the Audio Gods communicating to me through his ego.  Glad to see they are still following this project, which has had their insights from the beginning.

This may well be the second Tiny Radial Elf to join the team before it over.  Just wait to you see and here these things...




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/13/21 at 04:47:40




Here is the bottom view of the raw enclosure at a full .75 inch / 19mm thick.  Also the scalloped leg design was his own, and like the resin Tiny Radials, these will work with or without a plinth.


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/13/21 at 04:49:03





That beautiful washed out pale blue maple finish in the background pair waiting for drivers...







Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/13/21 at 04:51:31




Just to state to obvious - a modern day trend - here is the bottom and top view.






Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/13/21 at 04:56:24




There is something really right about this. You can see it. The Audio Gods were taking his skills and resources and making this happen.  

My thought right now is lets go all in and create such a high demand that I can go to him and say I want 40 pairs.  He won't be able to say no to that.

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/13/21 at 05:00:45


So, this was a complete surprise for me today.  I had no idea if the Tiny Radial tease I left there on his desk over a month ago would entice him against all odds of a schedule of insanity.  If you think COVID jacked DECWARE through the roof, you should see what it has done to home remodeling and custom cabinetry.

I will be posting some Youtube videos of how these sound soon.  Because of all your enthusiasm for these extremely cool little speakers the Audio Gods are making chess moves.


Steve




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/13/21 at 05:17:19


Quote:
I bought a pair of these Decware Tiny Radials to use as desktop speakers.  This led to a realization with them that amp synergy is a very real issue.  Have driven them with a Loxjie A10 amp ($60 on Amazon) and Vista Audio Spark ($389 from Audio Art Cable).  The Loxjie class D amp is hands down better sounding than the much more expensive Vista class A/B amp with these speakers.  The Vista amp was very bass light.


Hi Scott,

Your observation is spot on, also speaker cable has a HUGE effect on the bass weight of these speakers.  You can already see how a guy with the right cable and the right amp could get to goal for 100.00 while the wrong amp with the wrong wire could cost ten Times amount and not sound as good.  It is possible.  


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by JBzen on 04/13/21 at 12:32:09

Interesting how he cut, molded and reassembled the block of wood and added tenons to boot. Very stable product. Looks good. I may take his lead when building the desktop units. Great craftsmanship!

John

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/14/21 at 05:55:51

Indeed,

In a world where there is only a 1 in 10 chance of getting a good McDonnalds breakfast in the drive through it restores my confidence in humanity to see real craftsmanship.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/14/21 at 06:05:52


So good news, there will be 20 pair of these wonderful hardwood versions for sale on the Tiny Radial page at some point this Spring as we were able to send off a P.O. for them today!  


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/14/21 at 06:11:24

Also another batch of High Performance Resin models are nearing completion.



Steve  :)


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by JBzen on 04/14/21 at 13:31:34

Surprised you give a 10% chance of a good breakfast at McDonalds. At best it is an act of desperate need to go there for that. Like no ma and pa are open.

Fresh cranberries, sliced banana, 1/4 cut mix of almonds, flax meal, pepita, sunflower kernel, a squeeze or two of honey topped with piping hot steel cut oats...now that is a direct comparison to craftsmanship!   ;D

John

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 04/14/21 at 15:24:28

Perfection in a tortilla.



Give me 3 of those and a large ice tea!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Lon on 04/14/21 at 15:36:29

Not my idea of perfection in a tortilla!

My favorite breakfast is not available here, one of the things I missed most about my final years in Austin was walking five minutes to this store and buying a few of these amazing breakfast tacos and grabbing a few containers of their dona sauce!

https://www.tacodeli.com/menu/

The Otto, the Jess Special and the Vaquero are just fabulous treats for the senses.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 04/25/21 at 03:25:53




https://decware.wistia.com/medias/s14ys754ls

A quick sound demo of the new super thick Tiny Radials.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by EdwardT on 04/26/21 at 15:32:47

They sound great!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Chris B on 04/29/21 at 03:30:45

I’m interested in purchasing the Tiny Radials. Decades ago I heard a pair of Ohm Walsh and couldn’t believe the soundstage. The TR seem to have that same potential. I currently use a pair of NHT C1 on my desk, paired with an Earthquake FF6.5 subwoofer, and an SMSL AD18 class-D dac/amp with subwoofer out. I would like to hear opinions of the TRs as a replacement for the NHTs, but paired with the same amp and sub. If the TRs have a similar magical soundstage like the Walsh’s, then I think I’m sold. Thank you.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Nick324 on 04/30/21 at 03:34:09

Chris B, no don’t waste your time.i happen to have the SMSL18 powering my kitchen set-up so just out of curiosity (and Since you asked)  i tried it w/ the TR’s and nope...You are not going to get the magic that they are capable of. My own preference for the TR’s and yes my musical genre choices make a difference, is tube amplifiers.

In particular the midrange lost it’s voicing immediately  w/ The SMSL, did not like it one bit. The sound was off, and i am sure it had to to with the DAC and the class D operation of that particular amp. It’s perfect for my TV powering a pair of JBL B15 closed backs and throwing sound into a noisy kitchen, The clean set-up of my desk With the TR’s was NOT pleasing.

Don’t fret though, the TR’s are so difficult to actually stumble across, you have many months to save for a nice tube amp and maybe an R2R dac to mate them with..Happy listening...

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Chris B on 05/01/21 at 02:10:02

Thank you, Nick, for testing this configuration. If the TRs become available again in maple, I’ll have to give them a shot. Perhaps also with a Decware tube amp. I’ve been pretty happy with the class-D dac/amp and the NHTs, but am still encouraged to try the TR if they’ll sound better. I definitely loved the holographic sound of the Ohm Walsh (from 20 years ago), and will get the tube amp if that will create a similar experience with the TRs.

I would prefer maple to match my desk.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/17/21 at 02:47:25

TINY RADIAL UPDATE:  



Now that I have the machined steel plinths in stock,  Tiny Radials continue to get better.



It's a clean look compared to before, and no more worries about the plinths falling off.  The mass is so high on the plinth that even in shipping they would try to unglue themselves.  Now they are screwed on.



So far 25 pairs of High Performance Resin models have shipped.  I have 3 more pair on the site for sale as of tonight including the pair shown above.

Steve  




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/17/21 at 03:09:47


Another shot of the new plinth installed on one of the High Performance resin models.



Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by kulafu on 05/18/21 at 12:43:42

My current setup.  Thoroughly enjoying my tiny radials while working from home.  I believe they rival my Heresy IIIs.  


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Nick324 on 05/21/21 at 03:03:23

Dammit, who the hell is buying up all these tiny radials? Come on people back-off shoo, i need a HEAVY TR, the weight was my idea i should at least be able to own a pair... [smiley=angry.gif]

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/21/21 at 04:45:49


Keep an eye on the page this weekend...

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by JAudio441 on 05/21/21 at 21:29:40

Steve,

In an earlier post regarding the speaker cable you used for the TR's in your videos, you commented that "You can find this type of cable on eBay, search under Silver-plated 8ag speaker wire and I'm sure you can find many variations of it."

From the picture you posted, is this the cable\buyer you are referring to, https://tinyurl.com/ff3mrpvr

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 05/22/21 at 16:52:53

Yes, that is the wire I used, but keep in mind that because it is a brighter sounding wire, a sub should be used.

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by JAudio441 on 05/23/21 at 12:19:11

Thanks, and thank you for making a note about the sub when combined with the silver-coated copper cable.  I'm breaking in TR's as we chat and briefly connected my Rel T-Zero, which pairs very well.  You're spot on, the sub does take these to the next level, widens and deepens the sound stage.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/07/21 at 04:43:33


UPDATE JUNE 6 2021

Today I had a blissful day off where I got to spend a whole day in the wood shop with the doors open listening to my grand children playing on the swings I made ; ).  I haven't got to have what I call a Tiny Radial day out in the wood shop all to myself like this in such a long time due to the overwhelming amplifier orders... so the mood was ripe and some amazing things have happened!

I have reached my modified goal of making a Tiny Radial from a solid block of hardwood. This was my original vision with these until I actually tried it.  We all adapt our projects to the tools and skills we have, so my solution was to use four mitered panels and so on, is well documented.

And over the past year I've gotten making those down to a science. But it is still nonetheless a tremendous amount of work. The original Tiny Radial enclosure design was made up from 4 panels and 4 cleats totaling 8 pieces of wood.  Watch the construction videos and you can see the multitude of steps to making a pair. Each panel had to be cut to shape, the edged had to be mitered, the inside top of each panel had to be milled to a radius, cleats had to be installed, all 8 pieces had to be taped and glued together and then clamped in custom made jigs to keep it square while it cured. Then the sanding, and finishing.  

Never completely happy with the enormous amount of work and the thinner panels I have tried to machine or drill a 2-5/8 hole on a lite-duty drill press into a solid block of hardwood (end grain) and failed for a multitude of reasons until -get this- I saw someone else do it. This is always the case... mental blocks you create for yourself as part of the process that stop you dead in your tracks. Then you see someone else do it, and suddenly you know it actually IS possible. Then even without the same advantages, you still do it.

As a back story to this, one of the recurring reasons I failed so many times is because the nut on my drill press that was holding the drive pulley on the spindle wouldn't stay tight and the the large bit just made the spindle spin inside the pulley. Again, after finding out it was possible, and disturbingly done on the exact same drill press I owned, I had to of course try some more. Same shit, but this time after some cast iron profanity (a handy tool for any mechanic) I decided to remove the pulley and see what was really going on. That's when I learned it was a jamb nut with a reverse thread. So after completing the prototype shown here my instincts were right, a better drill press would be desirable so I celebrated by ordering a new drill press with real bearings and a few other perks that will be able to precision drill the hole.

Anyway, after seeing the Tiny Radials that my local German woodworker came up using 3/4 panels that I showed you earlier, I realized they are almost the same amount work as before because you have four precision shaped panels that have to be glued and clamped together...

Back to my opening statement "modified goal?" It finally was revealed to me... apparently I could no longer amuse the Audio Gods with my dedicated ignorance so they gave me a vision. And I have to say this one is killer. Instead of a solid block, it's two pieces of wood. Ying and Yang. There are no miters and the corners are solid. The square chimney is rotated 45 degrees.  And this one is actually heavier than the standard resin models by a good margin as you will sense from the pictures.

What drew me to this project in the first place was the love of holding a solid block of oiled hardwood in my hand and knowing it was going to be a trick sounding little speaker.  

So it has finally happened.  I am so pleased with the simplified process that there will never be another Tiny Radial made in my shop with 4 panels of any thickness.  Kind of sad considering I have three routers dedicated to making the panels that I will no longer be needed...  It's just so exciting to eliminate the routers, which was an intensive part of the previous design. It also makes me really happy that I made such a wise choice in mitre saws for the shop as that is actually going be the key to making these little bad boys.  Anything less would have let me down.

Very happy, as my wood shop slowly turns into a Keebler Elf kinda thing for Tiny Radials. I might even rename this model the Zen Tiny Radial since it only has two pieces of wood.




The fact that there are no miters is taking it to another level.

Steve




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/07/21 at 05:09:31




This kind of simplicity comes from the Audio Gods, not me... which should be fairly obvious if you have been following this thread since the beginning.

BTW, that beautiful chamfer was done by hand in poor lighting. I didn't even look at it until this picture...  It's that perfect because the energy was that dominate when I made it... if you get my drift.  Stepping outside yourself is the only way to achieve such things.

Steve



Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/07/21 at 05:11:51




Yup.




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/07/21 at 05:34:41


I've been stalled out on binding posts for over a month, and Parts Express is the only place with this particular brushed post that we like.  Once they come in I post of a pic of the completed model.

Meanwhile I will be adding  a few more pair of Tiny Radials on the page.  Some wood, some resin, some hydro-dipped.

So keep an eye out in the coming week or two for those.  Tonight's post is a preview into the future of solid hardwood Tiny Radials.  

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/07/21 at 05:48:44





I hope this blew your mind as bad as it has mine!  I am embarrassed to not have just figured out a way to make this happen per my original vision from the onset...  But something good has come from it because of the D.I.Y.plans. Lots of people have built the original Tiny Radials from those plans without having to buy special tools and they sound killer.

Happy Listening!

Steve



Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by 4krow on 06/07/21 at 16:19:28

Steve, I must have missed it. So tell me, what is that wood that you are showing in the photos? It looks so familiar. Depending on the wood used, the project can become more or less difficult. I once remember saying that purple heart worked more like brass than wood. heh heh

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/08/21 at 03:27:22


That is African Padauk.  It's one of my favorites both to look at and to work with.

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by EdwardT on 06/08/21 at 18:12:16

That's a pretty piece. Will you leave the “chimney” square?

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/09/21 at 01:40:45


Yes, the chimney size and shape has already been tested.  It will stay as shown.


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by 4krow on 06/09/21 at 04:40:04

Steve,

It had been so many years since I have worked with it that I started to forget some of the good memories. The smell is like vanilla to me. The wood is orange until a few day of sunlight or more. It is easy to work, and the grain one of my favorites.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by EdwardT on 06/09/21 at 16:03:38

<<  the chimney size and shape has already been tested.  It will stay as shown.>>
At the risk of being a pest, did you find that the lesser cubic area (and what I think might be a higher air impedance) loaded the passive radiator better? I bought the TR plans for a future diy but I’d surely try to incorporate this into that build.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/14/21 at 03:41:48


Honestly it's hard to tell.  When things are this small, the changes are small as well.  I will measure them at some point to see if the differences are even measurable.  To my ears they are the best enclosure to date.  Tested with the human voice, there is zero drone, and just a rich warm tone.  Makes the voice sound better than the voice actually sounds.

Steve



Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/14/21 at 03:53:28


Here is a couple pics of the latest hydro-dipped pair to sell. They are a work in progress, all with defects in the clear coat, but still very cool.





Eventually when I find a hydro dipper who actually wants to work, and has skills, these will be a common thing.  Right now they're super rare.

Steve







Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/14/21 at 04:07:50





Here are another pair of Padauk Tiny Radials I made using the new two piece method. It's such a thrill to have no miters on the corners -- just solid wood. In the past I have made several with some extra effort and luck that gave that illusion... but now it's not an illusion and it just looks great!

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by EdwardT on 06/14/21 at 13:08:05

Very nice, that’s a great look and some really nice wood. I'll bet they’re a pleasure to touch and hold with that extra mass.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Nick324 on 06/14/21 at 19:58:45

Steve, is there any difference in sound with the thicker wood and steel bases. The only issues I have had with my original pair #004 have been some resonance because the cabinets were at the time still not thick enough, despite my own being thicker than anything else you had at the time and the walking because they were too lite. Does the thicker 2 piece design still resonate? I also assume the steel base has added some needed density and stopped the issue of walking.
VR,
Nick

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/15/21 at 18:42:35


Hi Nick,

Now that there is real mass, I hear no resonance and the speakers don't walk around.  The steel plinth makes very little difference on the two piece design and is no longer required to keep them from walking...

Steve

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Tubecan on 06/18/21 at 18:06:05

12 Midnight,time for my tiny radials,so I grab my stands,set these up 6 feet on each side of my head,think headphones without the headband,I’m in a stereophonic picture perfect bliss,I hear clicking again,so I move my streamer farther away,still clicking,after nspecting I notice the red positive  wire touching the base,so I unbannana the left speaker and figure a butter knife from my extensive tool box will work,I start poking the wire,the base falls off,hmmm perfect,now I can tighten up the left negative jack,a touch of glue and back to listening..next  is opening up my omegas and finding out where they hid the tweeters.


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 06/19/21 at 03:44:59



Some of the woods, and we have gone through a wide variety so far, have shrunk after being made. I got a pair back in the Bocote that had shrunk over 1/8 inch which did four things... A) it reduced the distance between the screws holding the driver in, causing the driver flange to bow.  B) The bowed driver flange popped the lens off. C) since the thickness of the panels shrank the binding posts loosened. D) Since the enclosure shrunk but the plinth did not, the plinth also popped off.

We have always glued on both the lens and the plinth so that it would be easy to remove either one by prying/popping it off so it's an easy enough fix to glue back together. We recommend poly-acrylic adhesive such as "WeldBond" found in your local hardware store.

I've had my share of nightmares with the panel design on certain woods warping or wanting to move or twist slightly after assembly... which is partly what makes this new design so appealing. It has no panels. It has no miters. It's basically two solid blocks of wood with complimentary grain glued together into a single solid block of wood.

After drilling the prototype holes in the new design on my petite floor standing drill press, I knew that wasn't going to fly because it should be a lot easier and take a lot less time. The drill press wasn't meaty enough, being a bottom of the line light duty Shopfox. It has too much run-out for my taste even with wood when using a 2-9/16" bit. Underpowered, bearing slop, flex, - kind of amazing I got it to drill the few holes I did.

The first replacement drill press I found that got me excited would have been overkill as it turns out the thing weighed in at 780lbs. Then the Audio Gods (pleased that I didn't do anything that stupid) tripped me during my search and I landed face first looking at the most bizarre drill press I'd ever seen...  480VDC variable speed direct drive motor, no belts, no transmission, no sound...  and really big balls. This one only weighs slightly over 300 lbs so it was manageable dragging it through the yard on a two-wheeler to the shop.

So problem solved.





The drill press makes the bit look small. The bit diameter is 2-9/16"... ! It's cuts like butter now... and I have to say what a thrill it has been to experience another real tool! This is a bad ass machine. The fact that it is silent and you can just turn a knob to go from 50 rpm to 5600 rpm on the fly is mind blowing and that the torque never changes, or the speed when you're drilling... it's just too much!







And these were done before I found the right drill bit shown in the picture of the drill press... and even then it went very well. You can see the mitre saw in the background that makes tapering the sides possible and easy. So far I have been able to do all the tapering by hand on that saw with no clamps or jigs and without issues.  

So as you can see I am committed to making Tiny Radials a serious and permanent thing and having way too much fun doing it. Tonight I gave my 3 year old grand daughter a nice sanded block of wood from tiny radial stock - something you could never get away with when they're older - and she just glowed with excitement! One of her toys just fits in the hole and she couldn't be happier.

-Steve



Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 06/19/21 at 05:02:10

Is the spindle of the drill press Just a Jacob's taper or a Morse taper?

A Jacobs taper only fits drill chucks, a Morse fits more varied tooling.

A R8 taper is the best, but it doesn't look like that at all.

This is the kinda crap I know. They pay me to know it.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Archie on 06/19/21 at 07:13:12

I remember asking if Steve considered boring through a solid block of wood to make these.  So, I'm gonna take credit for this.   ;)

I take it you drill part way thorough and then add an extension and drill the rest of the way?  I love your table vise.  That really must make it easy.  Me?  I'd hold it with my hand until the bit bound and the piece spun out of control.     ;D

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by JBzen on 06/19/21 at 11:19:48

I am not sure what will draw my attention more this October's DecFest the listening room or wood shop!

Nice drill press Steve. I like that it uses a pot to control speed and not solely digital. It also has some very usable features that makes drilling/tapping efficient and precise.

John

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by JBzen on 06/19/21 at 11:34:07

Steve,

You might want to ax the vice and make a jig that mounts to the drill press table with a square peg the size of the v formed mortise with outside perimeter guide clamp for consistency and speed. All in time...geez ::)

John

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Geno on 06/19/21 at 17:02:52

Awesome!  Steve, I’ve been waiting for you to perfect your method on these. Looks like it may be time to order a pair 8-)

Nice work!!!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Chris B on 07/03/21 at 23:30:04

Hello Nick324, I acted on some of your advice. While waiting for availability of the TRs, I bought a Denafrips Ares II R2R DAC and SMSL DA-9 class-D amp. The improvement in sound quality over the SMSL AD-18 to hard to describe, so I'll just say I'm thrilled. I'm looking forward to trying this setup with the TRs -- if they are ever available :) (and maybe also swap the DA-9 for the Zen).

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Nick324 on 07/04/21 at 03:54:37

Chris B The NHT you have are no slouches by any means. Like I said, I like my AD18 and it has its place but also limitations. Congratulations on the new kit, patience is rewarded hopefully soon enough you can finish your updated set-up. Happy Listening always.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/12/21 at 02:02:28



UPDATE: JULY 2021

I have created a new web site for Tiny Radials.  www.decwaretinyradials.com

If it doesn't work right, let me know. It's my first hi-tech site that I've actually completed -- one that should scale itself for virtually any viewport on any device.  (yea... right)  But I have made it from scratch, there was no template - those always start out so good and turn into problems as soon as you try to make 'non-recommended' changes ; ). You know me, if it's non-recommended it's because I've already done it.



As of this second, no one knows about this new site and I have added 6 new pair of Tiny Radials waiting to be purchased. This is one of them.

Have fun with that : )

Steve


Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by MrDerrick on 07/12/21 at 16:17:58

WOW!

Those Tiny Radials fly off the shelf fast!

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/13/21 at 02:49:38


We will have more in the works.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by mperdue63 on 07/19/21 at 20:29:57

I get to listen to my TRs 6-7 hours during each work day( yep, I'm lucky). They are paired up with a Taboo MK4 and a CSP3 both with 25th mods. They are clear and image great and sound wonderful at my workstation. I got to wondering if there are full size speakers that are this easy to place and own that scale the sound for a whole room?
Malcolm

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Lon on 07/19/21 at 23:20:13

The full-size speaker is the HR-1.

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/24/21 at 06:33:11


Another 10 pair of Tiny Radials assembled tonight...  just sayin... the majority are the no-plinth design which just floats above the table or desk. These are super thick, super dense high performance solid hardwood models made from oak, maple, and some other woods...

You will see them added to the site as time allows.  Remember Tiny Radials have their own web site now...

https://www.decwaretinyradials.com








Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/26/21 at 04:08:25


UPDATE July 25 / 2021

As I mentioned earlier my hydro dipper guy didn't work out, and I couldn't get anyone else interested in jumping right on it, so I got a hydro-dipping tank to do it myself.

The reason I wanted to hydro dip Tiny Radials is because A) it would look cool and B) casting resin with perfect wood grain is a lot harder than it should be. Only got one in 7 molds perfect enough to make the grain look completely real and I have worn that mold out already. But, it's only a few minutes to sand them smooth at which point they are the perfect thing to hydro dip since resin is water proof. And I've collected a large number of flawed castings that can be smoothed out and dipped.

So I have been teaching myself to hydro dip for the past month. Failed at it 8 times in a row, and then started to realize all films are different and the activators are also all different and spraying on the activator has to be done with such precision that they actually make robots to do it for you. But, they still sell the spray cans for idiots like myself who buy a tank but are too cheap to buy a spray gun for the activator...

So since getting the activator mist perfect is not an option, I had to buy a good HVLP paint gun and learn how to use it which only took about an hour. Amazing how this single thing -- changed everything. I have had 3 perfect dips in a row now.

Well hell, now that I like using a real spray gun and went to the trouble to put an 1200 CFM exhaust booth in the shop just to use it without suffocating I may as well get another gun for the clear coat and learn how paint right?

Right.

I was delighted to discover that all the things that can go wrong - dirt, orange peel, nips were easily removed with 3000 disk and water with my sander. And from there just a good compound with the buffer and I'm having my first holy shit moments with a paint job! Something I have always wanted to do since being a teenager and when it's not the size of a car, it's a lot less intimidating.

Plus there is nothing like a real catalyzed clear coat that cures into something as hard as rock!

My plan here has been to learn to dip and paint on simple flat plates first before attempting a 4 sided Tiny Radial which is an almost impossible item to dip in a single dip. See I just so happen to have a stash of flat plates painted white from back when our amps were that color... so I have been practicing on those.  

Fast forward to now... I am no longer practicing, as I have figured out the base coat colors, film, activator, gun settings, water temperature to do the plates perfect and having quite a bit of fun because the results are so over the top.

I had the idea to do custom paint jobs on these old chassis years ago, but never dreamed it would be me doing it.

I posted these images with 'UPLOAD IMAGES HERE' link at the bottom of the forum so that if you click on them you can see the full size images.





I will build these up into completed units and auction them off with full warranty this winter.  

Now to figure out how to dip the tiny radials, something with 4 sides and 12/16 corners to sand through and nearly impossible to do in a single dip... probably won't hear from me on this one for quite awhile... I want it to look like the flat plates I did so I hope that wasn't setting to bar too high

-Steve









Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Steve Deckert on 07/26/21 at 04:48:30





I have to admit, the idea of photographing one of these things finished with the glowing tubes up under the lights on black glass is giving me wood...

Can't wait to see some tiny radials finally look like this.  Hope it happens.

Steve




Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Archie on 07/26/21 at 06:48:09

You and Donnie!  lol

Title: Re: Steve's TINY RADIAL project!
Post by Donnie on 07/26/21 at 10:42:40

I wish my stuff looked that good!

Forums » Powered by YaBB 2.2.2!
YaBB © 2000-2008. All Rights Reserved.