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New !!!  The Betsy & Buck 12 (Read 3170 times)
Randy in Caintuck
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New !!!  The Betsy & Buck 12
09/24/19 at 16:17:40
 


I decided that there would not be enough new loudspeakers to audition at Decware Fest 2019 ..... so I created one more to have some "variety" .....

The only way to add a 12" Eminence driver to a standard size Betsy baffle is to mount the drivers diagonally.



I had been thinking about doing this for a long time and came across a pair of pre-finished Baltic birch cutouts in my stash that weren't being used for anything.

This is a "passive" design with an inductor on the 12" driver ..... so no plate amp / subwoofer amp is needed.

I am extremely happy with the sound and will be curious to get some input from the Decware Fest attendees.

Larger photo here.

Happy listening,
Randy

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Bottlehead
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Re: New !!!  The Betsy & Buck 12
Reply #1 - 09/24/19 at 18:11:11
 
Once again, Randy - great work!
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Showme
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Re: New !!!  The Betsy & Buck 12
Reply #2 - 09/25/19 at 20:21:24
 
They couldn’t look any better. Really like the off axis visual.
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Randy in Caintuck
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Re: New !!!  The Betsy & Buck 12
Reply #3 - 09/25/19 at 23:08:05
 


Thanks guys .....

Actually, I had no idea how well these would turn out visually and they are better than expected.

The bass is also better than I expected ..... very natural sounding.
I'm pretty picky when it comes to integration of any multi-driver loudspeaker and these are seamless to my ears .....

They are certainly the most labor intensive speaker in my lineup, but are worth the effort. They have the finesse and sweetness of the Betsy driver and a very solid foundation in the lower midrange and bass at the low end.

Right now ..... they are the "everyday" speakers in my audio he-shed .....

Best wishes,
Randy

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Palomino
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Re: New !!!  The Betsy & Buck 12
Reply #4 - 10/01/19 at 21:36:57
 
They look nice Randy.  Looking forward to hearing them at the Fest.  The listening room is going to be jammed with all these new speakers!
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Brian
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Re: New !!!  The Betsy & Buck 12
Reply #5 - 10/22/19 at 02:51:31
 
Hello Randy!
With what you have said of the Lii Fast 8 being  "not as 'full' as the Betsy drivers, but the speed and detail are a bit better"; and with Palomino telling of the AES woofer: "I've never heard bass this clear and musical before"; I thought I would suggest pairing the AES Dipole 12 with Lii's speaker to make your 8 & 12 Open Baffle.  

Brian
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Palomino
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Re: New !!!  The Betsy & Buck 12
Reply #6 - 10/22/19 at 11:11:42
 
Based on what I have heard with the crystal 10 and AE LO15, it would likely be a good combo but $$$$.
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Randy in Caintuck
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Re: New !!!  The Betsy & Buck 12
Reply #7 - 10/22/19 at 18:44:39
 


Brian wrote

Quote:
With what you have said of the Lii Fast 8 being  "not as 'full' as the Betsy drivers, but the speed and detail are a bit better"; and with Palomino telling of the AES woofer: "I've never heard bass this clear and musical before"; I thought I would suggest pairing the AES Dipole 12 with Lii's speaker to make your 8 & 12 Open Baffle.


Hi Brian,

I checked out the AES drivers you are referring to and they look very nice indeed ..... however, as Palomino mentioned they are a bit pricey.
If I'm reading the information on their website correctly, they would be almost 900.00 for the pair .....

Most of my customers are looking for a bargain ..... so I don't know how well that would fly, despite the fact that the results would no doubt be very good.  About the only way I could see that working is as a special order item.

As a side note ..... I just received some information from Lii Audio telling me about a new bass driver that they will be offering soon.
It's a 15" driver intended to be a "top shelf" item and will retail for 599.00 a pair.
Sadly, a 15" driver will not fit on the Betsy & Buck baffle ..... but could be used singly (summed from a subwoofer amp) or as a pair in separate baffles.  Could be interesting .....

Best wishes,
Randy

 
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Brian
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Re: New !!!  The Betsy & Buck 12
Reply #8 - 10/24/19 at 03:45:50
 
Hi Randy,
Having a special order list in your catalog sounds interesting!

On a separate note, It was you who first welcomed me to the Decware forum in February 2001. I don't think I ever said thank you. I am grateful for the friendliness you extended to me then.

Best wishes on your speaker building enterprises.
Brian
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Randy in Caintuck
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Re: New !!!  The Betsy & Buck 12
Reply #9 - 12/10/19 at 15:47:41
 


Hi Brian,

Thanks for the kind words and good wishes .....

I finally had a few minutes to update the Betsy & Buck page of my website.
The updated page can be seen here.

Best wishes,
Randy

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Eldergod
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Re: New !!!  The Betsy & Buck 12
Reply #10 - 08/06/20 at 13:38:37
 
Kinda fascinated by this concept.  Realize I'm resurrecting an older thread, but I have some questions:

1) Anyone have any other experiences with this Betsy & Buck?  I'm preparing to diy some standard Betsy's, but seems like a really good move toward filling in the bottom end.
2) Can the 2.3 watt Zen power the B&B in a smaller (12x12) to reasonable listening levels?
3) Any idea if the Alpha's would still be the preferred driver for this, and what the coil value would be/targeted low pass point target?  Maybe proprietary info...
4) Would a slightly larger baffle to utilize the Alpha 15 improve it in any way?  
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Re: New !!!  The Betsy & Buck 12
Reply #11 - 08/06/20 at 14:28:21
 
Eldergod,

If you don't get any response from members, I would arrange a call with Randy. He's no BS and Is most familiar with his speaker and what works in terms of amplification.

I listened briefly to a pair of the Betsy & Buck 12's at Decfest last year with Steve's set up (I believe the 25th Anniversary Zen). The sounded really, really good to my ears in that we'll treated listening room.

HK
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Eldergod
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Re: New !!!  The Betsy & Buck 12
Reply #12 - 08/06/20 at 14:35:45
 
Thanks for the reply!  I may end up doing that regardless of responses here.  Intrigued by this combo.
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Randy in Caintuck
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Re: New !!!  The Betsy & Buck 12
Reply #13 - 08/06/20 at 15:41:00
 


Hello Eldergod,

I recently removed the Betsy & Buck speakers from the Caintuck Audio lineup.

The main reason is that I have stopped offering plywood baffles.
The quality of the plywood has continued to deteriorate and the top veneer of even the more expensive stuff is so thin that trying to sand out small blemishes often ruins the piece.

I only offered the Betsy & Buck in plywood baffles because I had problems with the small section of wood between the drivers splitting on the hardwood baffle versions.

So ..... I am getting ready to offer a replacement in the near future.
Lii Audio is now making a 12" version of the F-15 driver ..... the F-12.
They sent me a pair of prototypes several weeks ago and I have been checking them out in my home system.  

The sound is amazingly close to the Betsy & Buck baffles with a couple of advantages ..... it's a single driver with no crossover components and the efficiency / sensitivity is a couple of DB higher.

The tonal balance is different than the Lii Audio F-15 drivers ..... leaning more heavily toward the midrange and lower treble rather than the lower midrange and upper bass of the F-15.

They integrate extremely well with a powered subwoofer or the Alpha bass baffles .....

I like them a lot ..... and think that they will work well for a lot of music lovers.

I'm waiting on a shipment of the drivers and should have them within the next few days.

At that time, they will be added to the website price list.

Best wishes,
Randy

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Eldergod
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Re: New !!!  The Betsy & Buck 12
Reply #14 - 08/06/20 at 16:04:29
 
Nice!  Thanks for responding Randy.  Looking forward to seeing how they turn out.
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Re: New !!!  The Betsy & Buck 12
Reply #15 - 08/06/20 at 17:46:13
 
Hi Randy,

Very curious about the F12s.  Please start a thread to report more on your thoughts.  Are you considering two drivers in the same baffle or is that beyond what you want to deal with as far as manufacturing/shipping is concerned?

Also, I found your comment about the plywood quality interesting.  I have been finding the quality issues even with the Baltic Birch plywood that I have been using.  I have been using some older scraps on a small project and it just doesn't seem to splinter as much.
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Randy in Caintuck
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Re: New !!!  The Betsy & Buck 12
Reply #16 - 08/06/20 at 19:03:12
 


Hi Tom,

Because of the issue previously mentioned about the small section of wood between the two drivers "cracking" on hardwood baffles, I only offered the Betsy & Buck baffles in plywood.

Since I am no longer offering plywood baffles, all speakers will be single driver only.

The Lii Audio 12" drivers are close enough sonically to the Betsy & Buck that I think this will be a very good replacement.
Because of the increase in efficiency and the single driver format, they are actually superior in some ways.

As soon as I receive the shipment of drivers, I will post some information about them and add them to the price list.
They will be 100.00 less than the Lii 15 baffles in the equivalent species of hardwood(s).

On the plywood topic, it seems that the manufacturers are now able to make the top veneer layer so thin that trying to sand out blemishes without burning through the veneer is nearly impossible.

I had several situations where I had spent a couple of hours making a pair of baffles and then found a blemish that caused me to "scrap" the speakers .....

It wasn't all that difficult to make a decision to discontinue the plywood baffles since I much prefer to work with solid hardwoods ..... and the pricing is not that much higher for the hardwood baffles, considering what a customer is getting for their hard earned money .....

Honestly, orders have actually increased since the change .....
I consistently have six to ten orders in the build queue and shipping on new orders is currently at four weeks.

So much for "retirement" .....

Best wishes,
Randy

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Re: New !!!  The Betsy & Buck 12
Reply #17 - 08/07/20 at 05:18:53
 
Quote:
Honestly, orders have actually increased since the change .....


Doesn't surprise me actually... the speakers sound way better than a simple plywood baffle suggests, and now that they are hardwood, the heavier woods can only help the sound even more!  Plus as you say, working with hardwoods makes you want to go out and make something...

Retirement... highly over rated.  

Think about how many people because of the novel design and price of your speakers have gotten to hear a crossoverless-single-driver speaker with a beautiful balance as well as an insane sound stage for the first time!!!  And then think about how powerful that is in and of itself as something like this can lead a person to rediscover their music library.

I just set up a friends studio with a pair of the Auratone 5C Super Sound Cubes that all serious studios use since the 1950's.  There is a reason why a single driver with a small voice coil and no crossover sounds so good.  And what it can do, a large tower with 4 drivers and big crossover can never hope to do.  Couple a driver like this to a large baffle and things get WAY better.  That's what Randy has done and look how busy he is.  

When I look at the Betsy Baffles from Caintuck Audio I see the Zen Amp of loudspeakers.  It's the best analogy I can come up with.

Congratulations!

Steve

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Brian
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Re: New !!!  The Betsy & Buck 12
Reply #18 - 08/07/20 at 07:24:12
 
I used to read a lot of HP Lovecraft. It's off topic, but I just wanted to say to ElderGod, I am amused by your forum name, and really like it.

Brian
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Re: New !!!  The Betsy & Buck 12
Reply #19 - 08/07/20 at 23:16:27
 
Haha....! Thanks Brian. Glad to meet another fan. One of my favorite authors.
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Randy in Caintuck
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Re: New !!!  The Betsy & Buck 12
Reply #20 - 08/08/20 at 18:30:40
 


Steve wrote .....

Quote:
Think about how many people because of the novel design and price of your speakers have gotten to hear a crossoverless-single-driver speaker with a beautiful balance as well as an insane sound stage for the first time!!!  And then think about how powerful that is in and of itself as something like this can lead a person to rediscover their music library.

When I look at the Betsy Baffles from Caintuck Audio I see the Zen Amp of loudspeakers.  It's the best analogy I can come up with.

Congratulations!

Steve


Hi Steve,

Many thanks for the positive comments on the Caintuck Audio loudspeakers and the encouragement over the past few years .....

I have owned several versions of the Decware Zen amp and every updated version has been a "step up".

The information for the SE84UFO states -
"a signal-path featuring a mere 2 resistors and 1 capacitor"

Albert Einstein made a very interesting (and correct) observation about simplicity which explains the amazing sonic performance of the Zen amplifier.

I think that the same thing applies to the Betsy baffles ..... as well as all of the other speakers I am offering.

Single driver, no crossover components ..... just get out of the way and let the music into the listening room .....

What a great hobby .....

Happy listening,
Randy

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