Yesterday, we had a somewhat impromptu CDApS meeting.  It came together last minute when we realized that this was the only day that would work for the full membership prior to the fest.

So, at 1:30 PM El Presidente called to order the September meeting.  Secretary Palomino took the roll and set forth the primary meeting objective: determining the differences between three DACs:  The TEAC 503, the Schitt Gunnir multi-bit and the PS Audio Direct Stream.

System and Listening Room
All three DACs were evaluated using a chain that consisted of modified Mac MiniDACZibitDecware Rachael (6n5Ps, 247B, 807s) using my DIY XLRs and Decware Silver ICs and my DIY Power Cord.  Power is a dedicated line into a PS Audio P5.  Speakers were my DIY open baffles consisting of Augies powered by dual crown amps and W8-1808s mids and Dayton Audio AMT Pro 4 tweeters powered by the Rachael.  15” Dayton Audio reference sub is powered by a separate plate amp.  

Source was Audirvana 3.X playing primarily Tidal (some MQA) but also ripped CDs and some FLACs from Raven’s voluminous library.

TEAC
First up was the TEAC.  I felt that my system was achieving pretty good synergy thanks to some mods on my Rachael (thanks Will) and the crossover on the AMT/Tang band (thanks Randy).  You don’t really know till you get some other ears to hear it.  Both Raven and Bad Wolf felt that the system was delivering a smooth and musical presentation.  

Raven has been particularly critical in the past several meetings due to harshness in the high but felt that had been mitigated.  Bad Wolf knows the Tang Band well given he has them in Open Baffles at home and felt the same.  I believe he tames the issue with equalization.  I believe the summary comment was detail without harshness which led to better engagement.

Not a lot of negatives on the TEAC until Raven listened to the acid test song – Helplessly Hoping by CSN.  Here Raven and BW felt that the plucking sounds of the guitar were thick and un-natural leading to some overlap with the voices.

Schitt Gunnir Multi-Bit
Next was the Gunby.  Not huge differences from the TEAC which was somewhat surprising.  We all agreed the Gunby did a better job with the reverb and some micro details which made it more engaging.  Cymbals were more natural sounding.  I think I was alone in thinking that the bass was tighter and a little more musical.  It handled the acid test song more competently as there was clearer separation of the voices and guitar.  I did not miss the conversion to DSD I use with the TEAC.

Direct Stream
Finally, the Direct Stream.  I don’t recall the firmware release, but I think it was Red Rock?  Anyway, I think it is the most recent.  I had heard this DAC in my room twice before.  The last time it sounded bad due to technical issues that Raven was not able to fix during the Meeting, but the time before that it stood out as the best DAC I have heard to date, and that was several firmware releases ago.  I heard details and it had a lifelike quality to the music that were noteworthy.

It could have been how we laddered the DACs going from least expensive to most expensive, but we did not hear details that clearly placed this DAC head and shoulders above the others.  Yes, it was musical, and it was the most analogue sounding but in the detail department which had clearly stood out to me last time, it was not there. It did well with the reverberations and cymbals as the Gunby had and it was engaging.

Our overall conclusion in this “highly scientific” test was that there was not that much that separated these three DACs – at least in my listening room and my equipment.  I found that I could live with my $650 open box TEAC and I could be just as happy if not more so with the Gunby.  The DS did offer some nuance that I would very much enjoy but it is out of my price range.

Special Guest Star
Then we looked to the large Pelican Case sitting in the staging area just outside my listening room.  Yes, there inside this huge plastic box was the vaunted OTL.

For those of you who may not know the backstory, this is an amp that Steve built for himself.  OTL stands for “output transformer less.”  Somebody else here can explain the tubes/technology.  All I know is that a couple of Decfests ago, Steve broke this amp out and stunned the room.  I distinctly recall looking at Bad Wolf as we shared the listening couch and saying “woah.”

This is not an everyday amp as it takes time to warm up and cool down.  It runs extremely hot and has multiple fans to keep it from meltdown.  I think that it was not practical for Steve to move into production given these factors plus difficulty in finding matched power tubes.

Anyway, Steve put it up for sale and Bad Wolf bought it.  He was nice enough to bring it to our meeting so we could hear it.  He requested that Raven bring the El Caminos he and I built as Bad Wolf also has a pair of these and knows they work well with the OTL.

After setting up the El Caminos and a 20 minute warm up period we began listening.  A few cliché phrases come to mind:  drop the mic, walk off grand slam, holy sh*t.  This amp does not offer a listening experience, it’s a destination unto itself.  Totally immersive.  I found myself not wanting to get out of the chair muttering to myself “get up….…get up…don’t be a dick…give someone else a turn.”

Raven eased into the listening chair and seem to achieve some deep state of zen, hovering above sleep but yet not fully aware of his surroundings.  I have never had an amp take me there so quickly and I could tell Raven was definitely in the same zip code.

And that’s the best way I can explain what I heard.  I wouldn’t use words like detail, or great mids, super treble, etc.  This amp simply takes you there.  There are nights and certain songs where I can achieve this state.  But conditions need to be right and even then, it can take a while.  This amp takes you there very very quickly and doesn’t let go.

As the OTL cooled down, we BS’d a bit and reflected on a very successful CDApS meeting.  While the DAC comparo did not turn out quite like we expected, it was a great exercise.  I was happy that my room/system sounded good and that I was able to hear the other two DACs that I have been curious about.  The other guys can offer some observations to add to what I’ve reported here.

Raven passed out some party favors in the form of internet cable isolation devices for Bad Wolf and I to try.  He’ll have to tell you what they are.  Also, given his situation of re-doing the flooring in his listening area, he left the DS, the El Caminos and his modified pre-25th prototype Zen amp.  I’ll be spending some more time with each of these and will hopefully be able to offer some observations later.

That was a wild card in the test Lon.  All Dacs were shut off prior to the listening sessions (mine by mistake when cleaning!).

So one DAC could 'warm up' faster or perform better than another when cold.  

I don't have a feel for the TEAC, but I have had other DACs which sounded much better when they had been on for some time prior to listening (like a day or more).  I never turn mine off (on purpose).  

Aaron felt that the Gunby would have sounded better if it had not been cold.  We did have it plugged in in the "bullpen," but I think the timing or something goes out the window when you unplug it, even for a short time.

My last good listening on the DS from a past session, it was cold as well.  I think it was just that much better than my old DAC.

I tried to listen to the little Zen after dinner last night.  I was spoiled by the OTL.  I will try again tonight.

My experience is just like yours: almost any digital component when unplugged needs 24 to 48 hours to be all it can be again.

And yeah. . . listening to my 25th Anniversary Monoblocks used to make everything else sound "off" but now I've adjusted my expectations and know that if it's not one of the 25th Anniversary products it just won't sound "that way". . . and I can settle into that other sound more easily.

I've also found that adding the 25th anniversary CSP3 preamp to an amp adds a lot of of the magic. I'm listening to the CSP-25 driving the Taboo Mk IV right now and boy does it sound good!

Palomino I agree about the El Caminos’ tweeter. I’m pretty sure that’s my favorite tweeter. I think where the El Caminos really shine is that everything sounds good on them, some stuff will of course sound better on other speakers, but nothing sounds bad on them. They would be an excellent choice for someone that was only going to have one pair of speakers and liked a variety of music. They also work great with a 4 watt Mini Torii as well as higher watt amps like the ZMA, they would even do fine in a home theater setup. When I first heard them at Decfest I knew I would be buying a pair, little did I know that it would be that pair as they’d never be put into production. Funny enough I thought that about the OTL too, at the time Steve was considering putting something like that into production, and despite the price there was no question in my mind I’d be buying one, again not expecting it to be that one. I can fully understand why Steve isn’t doing the OTLs, but I have never understood not making the El Caminos available. They're just such an excellent all around speaker. They always seemed to be the most popular speaker at the Decfests they were available for.

I do really hope Steve does the 6C33C mono blocks though. As it takes a large supply of those tubes to find ones that match well enough to use in the OTL. It’d be great be able to use the ones that aren’t behaving in something.

It didn’t help that how the DS was situated, just perched on top of the TEAC, if it were sitting on a proper surface it might not have moved when pushed. However it really did seem to take an excessive amount of force. Such touchscreens have become kind of a pet peeve of mine, I have an otherwise nice light meter with one. It probably wouldn’t be a dealbreaker for me as it seems that most users don’t actually interact with the touchscreen much. It didn’t bother me as much on the P5, so it’s probably not a huge deal and could be down to some variation or just not being used to it.

Swapping DACs in and out has always been problematic at best for me.
I own a DS and find that after a power cycle it needs 48 hours of warm up before it starts to sound good, 72 hours to fully shine.
I find this true with all digital gear, until the temperatures stabilize for all of the internals, they just do not sound their best.
Powering down for storms during summer months leaves me with precious little premium listening time.
Winter is coming!

Darko Audio just did a DAC-Go-Round with the Denafrips Terminator.
There is a link to the You Tube Video on the Darko site.
It would take me months to compare 4 DACs.

I remembered to take a few pictures this time. Here’s one with the DS setup.

I agree with Darko about needing lots of time to compare. It’s taken me years to notice some of the differences between my amps. If I had extra money I’d probably buy a TEAC just to compare and experiment with upsampling.

The speakers we used with the OTL.

Aaron, If you would post a picture of your ElCaminos. They do look better than the raw MDF.

I still have a pair that are dark red metallic and and silver tops/bottoms I'd sell.

I also believe I have enough pre cut parts for another pair or two at least.

Main reason they are not on the website is.... Steve isn't really enthusiastic of MTM's in any way shape or form.

Here are a couple quick shots of my El Caminnos.

Despite the look of Raven’s they did sound excellent. They were even less finished than I realized. As soon as the OTL was playing through them I doubt if their appearance was on anyone’s mind. I do hope he gets around to finishing them though, such a great speaker should look the part.

We were using stock TEAC into zbit.  No ZTPRE (yet ).

Both DACs have been on since Monday.  My opinion of the differences between the two two DACs based on last nights session remains the same.  One thing I did notice was that I could get the TEAC to play smoother and more comparable to the analougue sound of the DS by varying the upsampling.  No upsampling may be the smoothest while dsd upsampling has the most detail (but also the most digital sound).

I’ll continue to listen and test until El presidente asks for his stuff back.

Zbit used on all three DACs for the comparo.

It helped us get comparable levels.  I found it interesting that we really didn't need to turn the dial much to get close.

I am going to listen again tonight while changing the upsampling on the TEAC.  It was surprising to me that DSD had as much digital sound to it.

BTW, one of my  newest reference albums is the Notting Hillbillies.  Well produced.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Notting_Hillbillies

P.S. Stop picking on the nekked, dog peed on El Caminos

P.P.S. Bob, maybe I need to buy some panels off you and rebuild these and finish them properly. Maybe paint them a fine El Camino metallic blue or something.  :)

Oooh, or can you veneer them so I can stain them a beautiful blue like my Zu Audio?!? We need to talk!

Eric, look into the remote for the PS Audio DirectStream Memory player. It will control the DSD and it looks and feels so much better. I bet PS Audio would sell you one for 15 dollars, I have gotten several remotes from them at that price.

Aaron,

Thanks for posting the pictures. A much better look.

Dog peed on El Caminos, say what?

Eric, I do have a red and ssilver metallic pair that could be at Decfest this year. CHris K has them and I'm sure he would tote them along with him. I haven't seen them in three years, but I bet they are perfect!

Just a jab....
Zygi

Bob, I'm not sure I can afford a complete speaker and/or built cabinet. I'm happy to do the labor to save money. We'll chat about it! I'm definitely interested - but Tom is right, I am pretty brilliant.  

Lonely Raven wrote on 09/14/18 at 19:28:39:

Looks like this. Aluminum top, black plastic bottom.

I have gotten used to the other remote. I like it because it controls the functions I most use of the DMP, the DSD and the P10. But the newer DMP remote has a heftier feel and looks nice. It controls the DSD but not the P10.

Quote:


This brings up a complaint about digital when it's combined with a computer.  My TEAC (NT-503 vs. UD-503) behaves the exact opposite.  I can't even listen to it without some type of upsampling.  The settings on my computer range from 44.1 x 16 up to 705.6 x 32.   I find that it sounds best at 352.8 x 32 and it doesn't matter if the upsampling is on or off on the TEAC.  There is a big difference in sound with it on or off, but either way 352.8 x 32 is imperative.  Using a transport through the coax I find having the upsampling ON is generally the best sound on this unit and to my ears.  I guess the complaint is in the complexity and inconsistent results, in a medium that could be as simple as ON or OFF had someone with better long-term vision set the standards.

Steve

Whats weird about this experiment is I was/am a DSD fan.  Had a hard time listening without it.

I used to upsample from the Mac mini and I find it better now to leave the signal pure.  Now I only upsample in the DAC.

As I have listened the last few weeks the Direct Stream has shown its quality.   Still impressed with the TEAC for the money.

I am weaning myself off your gear.

I actually have an issue with my P5 so I haven't been listening lately.

Since this thread seems to have gotten a little bit of a traction, I thought I'd post a feeler here:

We don't have any CDApS meetings planned anytime soon, but for those willing to make the drive out to 60440 Zip Code (or thereabouts since Palomino is only 15 minutes away from me), feel free to private message me here in the forums and I'll put together a contact list. Then when Palomino, Bad Wolf and I decide to do another listening session one of us will E-mail the list so people are aware.

Keep in mind, this "club" is really just three guys that enjoy Decware and good music, we are super laid back, and this is all for fun. I mean, seriously I was somehow voted president (when we only had two members! LOL) and most of our meetings are rather impromptu. That said, we can get serious when it comes to sharing info, music, and especially acoustics.

I'll post another thread asking for volunteers...er, I mean subjects...no, no...friends! Yes, that's the word...I'll post a thread announcing when we'll have another actual planned meet and be inviting friends over for a listen.