Well, my Zen Mystery Amp is in transit back to the mothership.  Nothing serious.  One of the bias meters started to go rogue on me so before anything more problematic occurred, I decided to send it in to get all the bias meters upgraded to the newer, more robust meters.  Rumor has it, the new gauges should even have a positive impact on the sound quality based on Steve's rebuild protocol with a superior resistor.  

So, this is the first time I have been an empty nester - without my beloved ZMA - since it entered my home several months ago.  Been very quiet around here - eerily so.  

Well, it is Friday night.  Without music is just not an option.  Ive got a lot of Decware gear so what shall I do?  I opted for the quickest and easiest option - because was feeling a bit lazy.  Rewind a bit, when I purchased my Ultra pre-amp for home theater, I also picked up a Super Zen Triode (SE84UFO) to power my rear channel speakers.  Those speakers don't know how good they have it, right?  Anyway, when I got the amp, I listened to it for a New York minute, and swiftly called it to duty - powering my DM946 rear channel speakers.  The Super Zen is small, fairly lightweight, and accessible in my array of cabinets, equipment and cables.  So, I reassigned it, promoted it, and asked it to do the unthinkable - fill the shoes of my ZMA.  

Suicide mission?  An army of one, against thousands?  Pitting a Light Featherweight against a champion Heavy Weight fighter?  After getting it properly installed, warmed up, and fed properly, none of the above!  Not by a long shot.  Will it make me forget about my beloved ZMA?  Let's not be silly.  But in all honesty, this is the very first time since owning this amp for nearly two years, that I feel I have actually gotten to know it.  And boy am I impressed!  This is one damn fine amplifier and what shocked me the most, is the clarity, detail, tone and weight of the sound it produced through my Omega Super Alnico High Output loudspeakers.  The bass is still very present - tight and authoritative.  I played it for a bit early in the evening where I could push the volume and it got plenty loud for what I would consider 85% of my listening requirements.  Later into the evening, I turn the knob to a 1 o'clock position where it was borderline too loud considering the time of night and the sleeping family upstairs.  But the sound was so sweet at that volume that I decided to let it be until I was told otherwise.  It was a risk worth taking.

So, I listened on.  Being Friday, after a long week, I kept things simple and stuck to Tidal MQA tracks streamed directly from my DirectStream DAC.  This is what impressed me the most.  I wasn't pulling out my best DSD digital tracks, my vinyl or analog tape.  The music was portrayed damn finely, through a damn fine amplifier.  

What motivated me to take the time to post this was not merely how impressed I am of its capability, but the fact that I underestimated what this little marvel could do.  I started my Decware journey with a Taboo MKIII, then added a Torii Jr., Rachel, Torii MKIV and eventually my current love, a ZMA.  I never considered the Super Zen Triode as a worthy contender to power my mains.  All I can say is, shame on me!  Would I consider selling my ZMA, pocketing the cash and leaving the Super Zen put?  Of course not.  Because I don't have to.  And the ZMA is a superior amp - by design.  But, if for some reason I had to liquidate for financial reasons, I could be very content with this Super Zen.  Very, very content.  I am not trying to compare the Super Zen with the ZMA pound for pound.  Not a fair comparison.  But what gets me so excited about this sub $1000 amplifier is that it's not 17.5% of the amp the ZMA is.  Price-wise, yes.  Sound quality, no.  

Is the ZMA over five times the sound quality of the Super Zen?  I answer this with a resounding NO!  Does the ZMA best the Super Zen in all categories?  Well, yes - of course it does.  Lest not forget, the ZMA was designed by Steve to be a "cost no object" reference-class amplifier, engineered and built to compete with the best of the best.  Hence the much higher price tag compared to the Super Zen. The ZMA is World Class and I honestly believe this amp is the last I will own.  But gosh dang it...  this little Super Zen is truly something special.  It has a quality of sound, and uncanny athleticism for something contained in such a small package and at such a low price point.  I am fortunate to have two Decware amps which on the spectrum of price, almost couldn't be further from one another.  Maybe someone will find this interesting and/or helpful.  

Ok, excuse me now while I go back to massaging the feet of my Super Zen in an attempt to be forgiven.

Jeff,

It's always good to have a back up.  When Steve was repairing my ZMA some months ago, my little Decware SE84CS EX performed admirably.  Saved me from music starvation.

Hope you get your ZMA back soon!

HK

Yes. In regards to your first paragraph Jeff.....your ZMA will come back even better...as mine did.

Yes. My ZMA is going nowhere.....it is so superb as you know. But, sometimes I miss my little SE84CS.....I would listen to almost every day for 13 years....until ZMA.

So, with the ZMA being a statement from Steve...and it certainly is.....I need to go to Decware next year to hear his statement in the 6C33C dual Triode tube and his topology @ 15 watts of pure Triode output/ch. I play with the subtleties now...via NOS tubes and Cabling....I know what I need to hear from the Mono's.

Stone,

What do you think made the improvement in sound?  Are the resistors in the meters the factor?  If I read Steve's posts correctly he uses the same meters but different resistors.  Or is there more to it?  (Maybe a "blue light" factor?    )

Torii MKIV in position and warming up nicely!



Forgot to mention for those unfamiliar with the Omega loudspeaker spec's, my SAHO's are 99 dB efficient. So, my Super Zen's (2 WPC) ability to deliver is obviously greatly influenced by these wonderful speakers.  "Obviously" for those of us in the know.

Found it here:  https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1486669840/20#20

Hi Larry,

Amp tested perfectly fine, however the meters did not.  Two of the meters had lost their calibration causing them to read faulty. Starting in Jan 1st 2017 all the meters in Decware amplifiers are being disassembled and fully rebuilt by Decware before being installed into the amps.  Part of the rebuild process includes tighter calibration and an upgraded resistor which can handle many times the current over a stock one.  This results in better sound, which is why we have incorporated it into all new Decware amplifiers that use meters.  

We will be making this meter upgrade available for any pre-existing Decware amplifiers in April or May of this year.  The price will be $100 + $25 per meter.

Also, optionally we can while quantities last, replace the meters with Decware Rebuilt Meters  that have lights.  These warm backlit meters can be installed for $100 + $50 per meter.

Please feel free to copy this information into the forum.  

I am rebuilding all 4 of your meters at no charge.  If you would rather have the lighted meters, it would be $200.

Thanks,

Steve

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1365130519/50#50

Hi Archie. The Meter's you see in Reply #64, should be the ones you have and were my old ones too. My new ones are Western Electric's with different/better to the eye scaling for the bias number's. PM me your number and I will text/send you a picture of my new Meter's.

Western Electric SO45 DC meter, Class 2.5.....are what mine read/say.

With the Torii MKIV filling in for my ZMA while it awaits surgery at Decware Memorial, I have been getting some great tube time with this amp.  Just listened to Jericho Road by Eric Bibb in MQA via Tidal.  I am not sure if it is mostly the engineering or if it is significantly enhanced by the Torii MKIV specifically, but the holographic imaging is the best I have heard, outside of my SonoruS analog tape rig.  It is so profound, it will be the very first album I will listen to when my ZMA returns.  It easily casted 180 degree imaging and I would estimate it got to 270 degrees at times.  Insane!

EdGuy,
Currently owning both the ZMA and the Torii, I would suggest you not consider switching to the ZMA until you first auditioned it.  I think the Torii MKIV and ZMA are each great in their own right, and would hesitate to say one is better than the other.  I truly believe the awarding of that trophy is purely dependent on subjective taste.  Some will proclaim the Torii is the winner while others the ZMA.  And while on paper, switching to the ZMA might seem a huge leap in power, in reality I do not believe it actually plays out like the wattage numbers would indicate.  Unless you have a very large room or speakers in the mid-80's in dB efficiency, the move to the ZMA should be based primarily on sound.  With my Torii in place while my ZMA is away for repair, the gain knob on my Torii is really very close to where it was on my ZMA.  I believe this would also hold true with the efficiency of your Tannoy's  

The ZMA has a bit more power if your listening room needs it and/or if you were interested in going direct, taking your CSP out of the lineup.  

But I say audition it regardless as the ZMA is not only about power, it actually sounds different and you may find you like the sound signature of the ZMA over the Torii despite not needing the extra wattage.  

And Stone, I agree about efficiency.  I don't worry about the numbers as much as I do sound quality.  If a speaker sounds great, I couldn't care less if it is 88 or 99 dB efficiency.  And the whole reason I started this thread was how impressed I was with a "more headroom" situation - which I got when I put my Super Zen in Friday night.  This could be accomplished with a flea watt amp and high efficiency speakers or a more powerful amp and less efficient speakers.  I often wonder what it would be like to have a lower dB speaker where I can put the pedal to the medal on my ZMA and take advantage of the higher wattage to drive them.  With my Omegas, I rarely get it out of 3rd gear.  So much more power sitting there itchin' to get used.  But I adore the sound so much that I don't get caught up on the numbers.  And who knows, when I ever move on to new speakers, and they are in the 80's efficiency-wise, I will already have a great amp in place to drive them - because my ZMA is going NOWHERE!  

That is a great point Lon, and one I actually thought about after I posted recognizing that EdGuy's Torii is a MKIII, which is an amp that I have never heard.  That being said, he should really audition the ZMA AND MKIV.  

Are you ever tempted to go to Decfest to hear both of these amps?  Maybe a similar improvement for your ears like your move from the Taboo MKIII to MKIV?  Im going to go this year for the fun of it.  Im not really in the market for anything per se at the moment, but you never know what you might be able to hear that isn't in production.

Quote:


Addressing the pre-amp part of your question, I originally bought a CSP3 because the ZMA has only a single set of inputs.  I run mostly vinyl and without the CSP3 I can't get to the 2V input that the ZMA needs to reach full power without a pre.  While I get great sound direct into my ZMA, I get more weight and can get louder using the CSP3.  After trying both ways I've settled on leaving the CSP3 in.  With other, higher output sources, the pre may not be needed or desired.  (See Stone's pre-amp journey.)

One other thing.  I use a LOT of silver in my system; interconnects, speaker cable, cartridge coil, so I'm sympathetic to your desire for internal silver wiring in a ZMA.  However, I trust Steve's voicing of his amps.  I would guess that a silver wired ZMA wouldn't sound quite like the "award winning" ZMA that so many of us love.

Archie:
Can you test with CSP and without, which of these combination is quaieter? With CSP2+ and Torii III I get an extra humm with preamp. That is one reason why I want to get rid of pre-amplifier.

About silver. I really like darker sound with lots of details. More I have put silver in my system, the darker the sound becomes and more headroom I get. Only internal wires are left..so I think it could work for me. I suspect that silver is avoided for cost reasons. I can be wrong, but so far pure silver has only been useful.

It was my error, rather than Mk IV I should have typed Torii Jr. My bad! Thanks for clarifying.

Steve: Thank you again Steve! I appreciate so much!
Have you tried pure silver internal wires, In what direction will sound change? It would be interesting to know.

So I have to connect CSP2 one by one cable to my system if I want to find out reason for my extra hum. I try that next, I hope I will not destroy anything 😁 Btw, what is the right way to connect the shielded speaker cables, where is the best place to connect ground wires with Torii?

There is a amplifiers you connect to your system and try to enjoy the sound they produce. If sound is not what you like, you change speakers or cables, acoustics, but still impossible to reach what you want...

Then there is a gear from Decware in my system: I can totally control tone, by tube rolling (endless amount of digferent combinations), with treble and bass control, both treble energy and roll-off control on my speakers and supertweeters, different cables... and soon with ZRock 😃🎸 as I told, total control.

Regarding your comments about the importance of the synergy between  amplifiers and speakers...  I am in complete agreement.  That is why when I comment on the S3HOXRS Omega's as they are burning in, I always refer to both the Super Zen + the Omegas as a unit.

Someday Lon will learn to post those album covers in the correct thread. (shrug).  ;)


Coming late to the party, and at work so I only skimmed most of the responses in this thread. I'm just pitching in my two farthings.

I listened to the Torii MK IV and ZMA at Steve's shop a few times, both at Decfest and on my own (at Steve's shop) - I wouldn't say the ZMA is better, but it did something *for me* that made me go..Hmmmm, that's the amp for me. In all these years I can't quite put my finger on it, except to say it's something harmonically that's different. I think it does have a difference in what I consider "grunt" due to the big caps. Overall the differences are so small that only us nuts would notice, and only side by side really.

The Zen amp has always been a little bit more...honest maybe? A hair closer to the music, and I swear it has more high end extension which gives you more spacial cues. All the things the ZMA does so well, the little Zen just beats it in this one regard, and I find it more engaging and just simply closer to the music. It can also make the little amp less forgiving of crappy recordings - but take that with a grain of salt, because my system is highly resolving, the MG944 can make the leading edge of bad recordings harsh, and my little Zen is...slightly modified. But ever since day one, almost 20 years ago, the little Zen has always been slightly closer to the recording.

As for ZMA with or without a preamp - as mentioned above, sometimes you just need the preamp for the voltage, and some people love the density a good preamp can bring, and that slight percentage pulled back from the music is worth the trade-off, or just isn't noticed with their system. For the same reason I still love my little Zen amp, that 1% step back from the music is enough for me to just say no to using a preamp. While I've not tried a lot of preamps, I've yet to hear one that gives me that extra density without being that tiny half-step back from the music.

As for a fully silver wired amp - I like the sound of that as well: IMHO silver I feel brings me more of those details I like, but can also bring a harsh leading edge. While I've not spoken with Steve about this directly, I'm betting it's never been done before for two reasons: #1 it would turn a $5500 amp that's barely affordable to us common mortals, to something like a $7500 (or more!) amp that's getting into the realm of Doctors and Lawyers. #2 that's an expensive experiment that would probably be difficult to voice. Again, that's all IMHO.

Most of you know my answer, I'd rather buy $800 of diffusers and have a greater impact on my sound with *any* gear in the room, than drop $800 on amp internals that give you a fraction of a percentage of improvement.

Personally, I'd love to find some improvements to bring the ZMA closer to my little Zen amps ultra-resolving detail. So far, only thing I've heard that gets me there, is Steve's bigger amps based on Steve's 6C33C tube circuits. If the future monos can bring the grunt and harmonic detail of the ZMA, but the honest detail of the Zen in one package...wow, I just get goose bumps at the idea.  :)

"I often wonder what it would be like to have a lower dB speaker where I can put the pedal to the medal on my ZMA and take advantage of the higher wattage to drive them.  With my Omegas, I rarely get it out of 3rd gear.  So much more power sitting there itchin' to get used."

Well put J of A, .....just not to low in the mid 80's. I still had to GUT the x-over's out of my 89db @ 1watt/1meter Adagio's and make them right with single Caps. .....NO, burning up those first few watts.

......no looking back....well, except for a few recent comparisons where my modified Adagio's crushed ALL of the competition.

My work is done here......I can lead them to water ~ but I can't make um' drink. Time for some 6 String Theory........it has been awhile for this Disc.

Quote:


Usually Monoliths since they were closest to my MG944, barring that, Steve's white HR-1 that I had a love/hate thing with. Sometimes they sounded Meh, and sometimes I was like DAMN that's room filling music! And I'm sure sometimes the Silver El Camino pair that eventually came up with me to Chicago to another forum member.

The ZMA has always been rock solid, consistent. Every one I've heard sounds just like mine, and their "sound" comes through every pair of speakers I connect them to. I'm not sure why that is, but there it is.

Also, i'm not sure I agree with working a tube amp harder by running inefficient speakers. If it was a guitar amp and we wanted to drive the output tubes into distortion that makes sense, but for audio, I'd much rather have speakers that are light and fast and right in the middle of the efficiency rating; I want the amp warm, but practically loafing along effortlessly, not driven into distortion.

At the same time I understand why someone wouldn't like super efficient speakers, I think we often drive the cones into distortion if we aren't careful. I love a good full range speaker like my Omega (mostly for the time alignment - to me, timing is everything), but it's easy to make the cone cry or or distort if you aren't careful. That's where the hemp cones, or carbon fiber, or ceramic cones come into play.

It's all trade-offs (shrug)

I realized that ZMA maybe not for me. And since I never settle for a good I decided to replace all my components inside Torii with new components(better ones) and all internal cables to pure silver. So after this make over there is only transformers left from the original parts. Has anyone done anything like this before to Decware amps?  
I can hardly wait to hear the resault. Wish me luck, as I'll be really busy this week 😆

Here is the list of components I'm going to use in this project with my Torii MK3:


CAPS:
- 47uF  400Vdc  Jantzen  Standard  Z-Cap (+ 0.01uF 600V Auricap XO BYPASS Capacitors)  
- 100uF 100V Elna Silmic II Electrolytic Capacitor
- VCaps Elite Reference  0.1uF  600VDC

RESISTORS (all resistors are carbon composite!):  
- Allen Bradley 6.8K  1w  5%
- Riken 110K  2w  5%
- Riken 2.7K  2W  5%  
- Riken 33K  2W  5%
- Kiwame 2K  5W  0.5%    
- Kiwame 270K  5W  0.5%    
- Kiwame 910R  5W   0.5%  
- Tepro 250R  10w  0.5%

RCA SOCKETS:
- Rhodium plated Tellurium copper

I also isolate all power cables with special foil (foil will be grounded), ferrite will be added to signal cables. Stepped attenuator is already replaced with High End attenuator.
So what do you think? I believe that with these upgrades Torii will stand good against ZMA and even monos.

When I'm finished with the Torii, same fate awaits my preamplifier...

LR, as you know, my ZMA is in for repair.  I am having Steve "upgrade" several parts on my ZMA, some of which are internal.  One such part happens to be the stepped attenuator.  I am going with the GoldPoint 47V - 100K, stepped attenuator. 47 clicks so more finite adjustment.  It is pricey, $300+ but built for sound and offers more adjustability.  

With the other parts I am changing, the one thing I do NOT want to do is change the voicing.  We all know an amp is not merely a sum of its parts (I hate to use such a cliche, but it is so fitting here).  Steve's voicing is the magic, or Zen, we have all fallen in love with.  Yeah, internal layout does matter, but it is all of the hours tweaking, day in and day out, that Steve obsesses over, that ultimately leads to the Decware amps we have all come to know and love.  What I am trying to do is simply improve on (however slightly), but not change, the beauty and brilliance of my ZMA.  

EdGuy, I too wish you luck.  I have done a lot of reading/research on capacitors, sockets, binding posts, signal wire, etc., etc. so I understand the allure of changing things out, but I am fearful you may end up with an amp that looks like a Decware amp, but is no longer.  With so many capacitor and resistor changes, I can't imagine much of Steve's voicing will remain.  I am not saying such changes will not amount to something great, but greatness is no guarantee when throwing a lot of random (albeit quality) parts together.  If I was to guess, your amp will have a completely new voice.  You will have to let us know if it is one you adore or despise.  

Ed, here is a thread from a gentlemen whom modded' his ZMA.
https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1409130590
Maybe, some parallels and/or correlations can be drawn.

Furthermore, IMO, you need MORE acoustic treatment in your room. You have run 26 miles of the marathon (I had Tannoy concentric horns once too)....now finish the last 385 yards...possibly for you.....ceiling treatment.....and certainly STOP the reflections off your floor!  
Tannoy concentric's....will always put off some noise at idle.....your brightness is the Tannoy's....probably from the room too = treatment first.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVoAxPCbmis&feature=youtu.be
obviously, your room is wayyyyy to bright/reflective.
.....good luck.

....and I'm with J of A. I will never change Steve's voicing.....I will continue my NOS Platinum tube rolling with success and my modified Adagio's have completed my synergy. I have had all the comp in the room....all have been kicked out....except the modded' Adagio's.
PS-my Kimber Select Loom is also essential (talk about the lowest noise floor with the KS6063's.....).

INTERPRETING your previous post.......you want more brightness?! In the States here....this term is = bad.  Your room is already to bright ......just by my viewing it. 

.....that little bit of noise/hiss, et al. ......is inherent in a top quality CLASS A design .....(Concentric Tannoy's are notorious for amplifying this). Your Vincent....does not have it....because it is A/B....and ironically, is getting in the way of the music. I know this seems counter intuitive .....but that is the way it is.

Thanks for the suggestions on the attenuators Jeff and Ed, those both happen to be ones I was looking at, the PartsX one being more likely since I can't afford a $250 volume knob...but I still want to see what you think of it Jeff, once you get your amp back. If I had the money, that's what I would have tried as well.

JOA: Thank you

I have to explain a little more about this project.

What I have learned so far is the opposite. If compromises are made at the beginning of the signal path, it is just futile to spend money on anything else (loudspeaker/interconnect cables, better acoustic, better loudspeakers, electricity purifiers, NOS tube rolling...). And still we also talk a lot about how do you connect a speaker cables, what fuse do you use, what about tube dampers  and power cables... The more you spend in everything else, the more these compromises are emphasized. Even though my whole room would be lined with acoustic panels, I hardly get rid of hum/noise. Sure earplugs could help ...

That is why I decided to open the amplifier and see what I could do better, what is that left “untouched” for cost reasons and things like that. I immediately noticed that all the power cables are running freely parallel with the signal cables (now all the power cables are shielded and shield is grounded). I found that most of the resistors are the cheapest possible, which are like a magnets to all kind interferences (I replaced them with carbon composite or carbon film resistors, now exposure to interference 0). In addition, I found some other small nuance. At the same time, of course, I decided to change the capacitors as well as all the possible cables to pure silver, because I know exactly how much it brightens the whole system.

The reason why ZMA is quieter vs Torii is because it’s structure is a LOT simplier. Thanks to the simpler structure/ architecture, problems with interference is much less, the interferences are easier to keep under control. For a more simplified structure, however, it is not as flexible as Torii to the user (if some gives value to certain things...).

If you take a look at my DAC, you can see that everything is in own sections with graphite barriers (PSU, the digital and analog sections) and there is a good reason for that. Of course it is much harder to separate signal components from PSU in Decware amplifiers (without circuit board), especially in Torii, but it is still possible. It is possible for price x3

Well, we tried to help you Ed. Obviously, it went in one eye and ear.....and right out the others.  Good luck.......and you still need to address your poor room acoustics.