97 vs 89 db in an ob is the problem running off single amp.  and ob vs imperial (folded horn) are different animals too.

i tried running my augies with maggies and betsys off my single cary 120 and the 89db augies didn't provide enough to mate with either of these main speakers.

i have no doubt that a 15a would provide enough volume (whether it would sound good is a different story).

Great posts: Randy, Pal, Donnie & Trip........ . I'm soaking it all in for my initiation today, with one Eminence Alpha 15a OB, from Randy. I'm off today....and I should have it by 2pm or so.

My quote button does not work, ....Trip wrote:
"I dont think you can go wrong eitherway, however i still want to try a pair of 15a's running full range off 1 set amp (like dbc).  If i didnt hear it i wouldnt have believed it.
Cant do that with augies... ive tried.  You need some power for those."

I only have one coming today....but I will get a good taste! Yes, you need the sensitivity of the 15a.....and it's what I wanted too. Yeah, sure I have power/ZMA....but, running direct.....I wanted no worries/guaranteeing their success...and I might end up buying a UFO too.

Hey, I might prefer my plate amp in the long run....but, I wanted to ensure success of running direct with 15a('s).....even if I need to reinforce the baffles from behind (if I choose not to run with plate amp ranges and stay direct).

super zen, betsys, 15a, all running off the ufo either full or with passive low pass, is my goal for my 2.2 home theater setup.

if it doesn't work i can power the 15a's with spare gallo sa.  but pretty sure it will however.

Quote:


I had put these out of my mind for a while...this is one amp that could have my interest if done right. I like these tubes a lot...it would be better if it were OTL, but, that's just too finicky.

I'm still very happy with my pseudo-anniversary UFO Zen amp. If/When Steve puts something like this into production, I *highly* recommend it.

A couple of additional thoughts .....

I am very much enjoying the sound running my Alpha baffles in "passive" mode ..... either with the 100 Hz low pass filters (12 db slope) or with the 13 mH inductors that roll the bass drivers off at a 6 db slope at 98 Hz.

Having said that, I'm still recommending that MOST of my customers use an active plate amp or something like a Crown amp to power their Augie or Alpha baffles.

The reasons .....
First, the Augie is simply not sensitive enough to be used this way in an OB situation in my opinion ..... YMMV.
Second, despite the fact that the passive setup is working well in my listening room it might not work so well in every room.
The plate amp(s) or Crown have greater impact and you can control the volume and crossover point ..... as well as the phase (at least on the plate amps).

Running the bass baffles passive, I get the feeling that the entire musical presentation is "cut from one piece of cloth" ..... but the benefits of active amplification might win the day for a lot of folks.

I entertained the thought of offering the Alpha baffles with either the low pass filter or the inductor built into the box I mount the 5 way binding post on ..... but due to the fact that I cannot know in advance what the outcome will be in the purchaser's system I decided to deep six that option .....

As to bang for the buck, a single Augie or Alpha driver and inexpensive plate amp summing the channels to mono is very hard to beat.
What I hear from "stereo bass" (using two bass baffles and two plate amps or a stereo Crown amp) is a wider sound stage and a better sense of the recorded space or room ..... even on recordings that have no deep bass content.
Again ..... YMMV.

Are we having fun yet ? .....

Randy

Drat ..... I knew that I forgot something .....

The thought of turning the bass baffles 90 degrees in relation to the main speakers is not my original idea.
Pierre Sprey at Mapleshade has recommended this setup and Israel Blume at Coincident Technologies mounts his low frequency drivers in the sides of the cabinets on his larger speakers.
Both of these guys are pretty savvy and it's worth trying.
The WAF might not be the best, but since the quality of the sound is our main goal it's something to consider .....

Stone, your black hooded robe with embroidered open baffle bass speaker insignia and instructions for the secret handshake are on their way.  We'll have a brief swearing in ceremony via Skype.

Quote:


One of many reasons why you're a friend. LOL

I need to know if this is a open baffle club or is it more of a cult type thing.
I'm partial to a cult myself.
Would it be alright if I was a high priest? Maybe in charge of making the Koolaid?
I'm a self starter, with a lot of leadership experience, and would bring cups.

Donnie gets my vote. Red Solo Cups I hope?!  8-)

Drinks are on me boys!

As a drinker of the OB Kool-Aid, I want in!  And I will bring the whiskey!

First order of business...  Prosthelytize. Convert the unknowing. Then get them to bring the booze.  Music, tube amps, OB speakers, and alcohol will be the tenets.  

I woke up this morning and turned my System on .....and it was not a dream.....I'm enjoying OB bass.

Your rustic look to your OB Randy, is quite nice indeed.

What does matter, is the sound....and as you stated:
"As various comments in this thread testify, there is something about open baffle bass that is special. It's natural and complex and presents low frequencies in a very satisfying manner."

I could not agree more Randy (and as your live listening testifies).

......and I will add: The seamless, ease of integration with my DM's + no need to fiddle around with controls. I have it locked in, with this mornings confirmations of listening, at 70 Hz, with my Velodyne 130 watt plate amp, 0 degree phase and at 1/3 volume on plate.

I have zero/no desire to hook up the Monolith's to my DM947's. Furthermore, I do not miss in any way, the transmission line bass of my Adagio's.

OB bass is it and you know it when you hear it.

Randy, thanks for making my music listening enjoyment experience even better!  Have a great weekend.  -S






Listening Room:


Room Treatments from Michael Green & Home Brew


Sony as Transport (DVP-NS57P)
Illuminati D-60 Digital Coax IC


Shunyata Research Zitron Alpha Digital Power Cord to ZDSD
{Extremely Significant}

Decware ZDSD DAC / Recorder ++
***************************************************************
W/Steve's Output Transformer's/kicking to the Curb quite a few superb DAC'S!
***************************************************************
(@ -20 Ref Level, 0.0 Input volume and @ 16/192)



WBT-0102Ag RCA Kimber Select KS1030 ~.75 meter



Decware Zen Mystery Amplifier
~BIASED at *56* mA~
(NOS/Platinum/Mullard E188CC/7308's in my A12 an B12 Input positions Cryogenic~NOS/Platinum/Telefunken E88CC for Inverter Tubes~NOS RCA 0A3's & matched Quad/Tung-Sol KT66's)
ZMA adjusted at 20% to 30-40% max ~ from 0 Gain



***************************************************
Kimber Select KS6063 Speaker Cable 8ft WBT-0681-Ag Spades
***************************************************
Kimber 8TC new/white & clear jacket/to remind me of how fluid/timbre correct and good the KS6063 are!



DM947 (Decware Monitor's)
Caintuck Audio Eminence Alpha 15" OB BASS Unit
at 70 Hz, with my Velodyne CHT 130 watt plate amp, 0 degree phase and at 1/3 volume on plate
Plate Amp....regen'd clean ~ plugged into P3


Decware DM947 Monoliths/4 ohm (Midrange modification/Wave Guide)
w/PX Clarity Caps ......Duelund, StealthCap or Mundorf MCap Supremes possibly pending.....
enjoying from 8 ohm ZMA Taps

Acoustic Zen Adagio - Black Pearl (Modified)
.....from 8 ohm ZMA Taps.







Acoustic Zen Adagio's x-over's Modified/Full Range with Mundorf MCap Supremes-single Cap to each Tweeter/4.5k cross
(Gutted: 3kHz/18dB/Octave, Linkwitz/Riley Crossovers....with all crappy parts = gone)


XLO Pro Power Cord to ZMA
PS Audio P3 Power Plant / Pangea AC-9SE from wall to P3
(Transport and ZDSD, Regenerated/*120*~ Multiwave off...ZMA on High Current Output)

++ ZDSD DAC, kicked to the Curb: Auralic Vega, PS Audio PWT & PWD, PS Audio Direct Stream DAC, Chord Qute, NAD M51 (twice) & Schiit Yggdrasil.


~NOS Platinum Tubes from Upscale Audio/Kevin:

(Great Britain) Mullard 7308/E188CC ~  2 pair (both pair Cryogenic)
(Germany) Telefunken E88CC ~ 1 pair (painfully expensive/worth it)
(US/Great Britain) Ediswan CV2492/6922 ~ 2 pair (one pair Cryogenic)
(Hungary) Tungsram 6922/E88CC ~ 1 pair
(Hungary) Tungsram PCC88/7DJ8 ~ 1 pair.

From Cryoset:
(Russia) 6N23N/P-EB ~ 2 pair

(Russia) 6N23P's ~ 2 pair/came with ZMA.  

Stone, given your enthusiasm, I dug out some old speaker stands I have and set up my DIY DM945 sans base cabinets.  It had been years since I listened to them this way.

Anyway, integration was a snap with my Augies, which I positioned behind and to the side of the 945s facing the listening position.

It was pretty sweet and I spent several hours listening last night.  

So while I have been on the OB bandwagon (and still like those better for soundstage), it was nice to see I have yet another set of speakers capable of excellent, engaging sound.

Hi Pal… yep once Randy “introduced me” to OB sound.. I got smitten pretty quick.  I hopped on the Hawthorne Trio bandwagon right out of the gate, but scrapped the stock Hawthorne PSI 15” coaxials pretty quick and replaced with an AN full-ranger.  I drive my 4 fifteen inch Augie’s with a Crown XLS-2500 (first version).

It can be difficult to get the “cut from one cloth” sound by driving your OB Augie subs with a Crown.  But this is almost a necessity due to the sensitivity differentials between the Augie’s and your mains.  All the AN full-range drivers I have are significantly more sensitive than the Augie’s.

I have two Velodyne Digital Drive subs… that have speaker level inputs that I used with Martin Logans before my OB enlightenment.  I always “preferred” the perceived “cut from one cloth” sound of the Velodyne’s when driven off my main amps speaker binding posts to the speaker level inputs on the Velodyne’s.

I had a little “issue” with integration of the Augie OB subs driven by the Crown at first, but found two ways to solve the problem.  1) was an Ashly XR-1001 active xover (do not dismiss Ashly because it’s a pro audio company – they have been around a  l..o…n….g  time and make some fine sounding products).  Anyway, this xover allows for more control and I was able to get dialed in to my satisfaction.  2) Ultimately, I found that reversing the phase of the speaker wires to my Augie’s from the Crown, eliminating the Ashly xover and using the xover in the Crown, resulted in nearly perfect integration with my mains (AN’s driven by a Decware Torii).  So I’m not sure if the Torii inverts phase (many tube amps do) or if the Crown does.  But you might try this and see how it sounds – it worked for me.

Additionally…. You can feed the Crown from the speaker output binding posts of your main speakers amp by using another common tool from the Pro Audio world – a device called a “DI Box” to step down the voltage from your main amps speaker outputs, to line level for input to the Crown.  DI boxes are “common” pro audio devices.  The Decware ZBIT balanced to single ended converter box functions kind of like a DI box in a sense.  I’d like to see Steve expand the functionality of this handy little tool to one that works single ended to balanced as well.  And even a version to do speaker level to line level conversion… just so we can “keep it all in the Decware family”.

I noticed the Betsy/OB sub picture that shows the dual OB subs positioned almost perpendicular to the Betsy baffles.  I’ve read a white paper with “science” behind why having a subwoofer positioned perpendicular to the mains speakers/your listening position, should/could/ought to produce the best bass.  I can’t remember where I read it, possibly something from Dr. Hsu (Hsu subwoofers).  I have tried it, and does usually seem to work very well.

I have used only 2 of my 4 Augie's to good effect with my Betsy Baffle's.  I've used one of my Velodyne's with them too.  I concur... OB bass is something special.  It just seems to be more "cohesive" with the rest of the sound or something - it's hard to put into words.  The Velodyne's go back to duty in the HT.....  Augie's for the man cave it is, for the foreseeable future.

Stone... you will be assimilated - resistance is futile.....  

this is the final resting place for my augies.

i've tried behind, in corner, firing 45deg and 90deg... this seems to sound best in my room.

running the gallo sa, high level inputs, crossing 80hz, 0 boost, 0 phase.

these integrate better and easier than anything ive tried to date.  almost just smack them down anywhere...

Trip,
Looks like some serious toe-in on those Betsy's.  How far in front of you do they cross?  Ive played around with different degrees but I have not got that extreme.  

And man, those Betsy's and Augies are such a good marriage.  They have been filling in nicely while my Omega Super Alnico High Ouputs were being built. Louis just informed me that they will ship Monday  :)  

I expect these Augie's to play nicely with the SAHOs as well.

Quote:


Got it.  All makes sense now.. thanks for clarifying.  Just wanted to sure I was not missing out on something with these Betsy's.  

That's actually a pretty cool idea to get the best of both worlds when one room is all that is available.  Allows for a proper setup of each in the best way possible (not cramming HT and 2Ch together in the same cabinet/rack).  Also makes 2ch room treatment easier it would seem with no flat screen in the center, etc.

great!  i really wanted to try those monoliths with my ufo2.... but something has to give (money wise) and i love my betsy's, so i'll make do.

i am glad you are enjoying them stone!

I don't like you guys, for spending my money!

I just received two Augies yesterday! Now I need to find time to build some baffles for them. Put them in my little room and see how they sound. I can't wait.

The way this Open Baffle layer's in at 46 to 62Hz with my DM947 Monoliths is something. This Kool-Aid is gooooooooooood!  

I have had a few box subs in here. The Velodyne, I extracted the killer plate amp I am using with my OB. HSU and a very good Rel sub with Neutrik connection. None, I repeat none, could do what Randy Caintuck Audio's OB is doing for my Music. ........Brings out the bass line notes within superb tonal balance and increases/improves the soundstage.
.....find the sweet spot volume on your plate amp.....where as, do not cause over excursion on the cone (some people need to be told this).

Raise the price Randy, by $25 to $40 per OB.....would be justified. Thanks again Randy.  -S

Don't you dare feel bad Randy.  Your packaging as-is, without the fancy foam, is second to none and worthy of a surcharge.  Seriously, I have not experienced such superb packaging with components exponentially more expensive than yours.  

I agree with Stone, your products are worthy of a higher price tag.  It is your decision as to what to charge but the design, craftsmanship, performance or your OB's far exceed their price tags.  If you were to ever price them in accordance with their value (i.e. more expensive), I don't believe any of us who know what you are producing would balk.  Bottom line... don't ever feel guilty about notching up the cost to allow you to further enjoy your passion/retirement  :D

I am loving my dual OB Augie's in Bubinga wood.  Something about this ultra-dense wood is special in combination with your baffle design and these Augies.  The bass is so tight, accurate, and quick.  I have never experienced anything like it with subs I have spent thousands of dollars on - each!

Another glass of Kool-Aid anyone?

Word.

all i have to say is WOW!!!  augie's need to be in 1.5" baffles.
these are 100% improved (and i thought they where pretty good to start).

Very nice Augie's (I could not do woodwork like that) and I see you have the better Maggie stands. I see one of the UPA-1's too! You can sell those for what you paid for them...... .

cool and cool Trip! tell us more about your HT 2.2 with ufo2, when you're ready.

Randy!  Hitin' it right now at 55Hz set on my Caintuck OB. Integration with my Adagio's ..........pooooof! blowing my mind.

.........the sensitivity of the driver....the speed! ............the glory of the bass lines!

Damn good with my DM947's too.....I just have my Adagio's in for a week or two run right now!