Hi Archie. I will get the 6P3S-E 6L6's (thanks LR, for your first impressions) and try with stock 6N23P's. I still like the 23P tubes. They are just not my favorites. My Mullard's peel back more layer's/detail/and timbre (inputs), yet are still warm and musical.

Frankly, the Treble of the Mullard 7308/E188CC/Cryogenic is to die for, without dynamic loss/sacrifice.

The single most influence are the input tubes in my opinion. I am using my Telefunken's as my phase inverter's.... .

NOS Platinum Input Tube Rotations in my ZMA,
(matched pairs/from Upscale Audio/Kevin {except for Russian Tubes}):

(Germany) Telefunken E88CC ~ 1 pair = are locked in as phase splitter's.

In order that I love:
(Great Britain) Mullard 7308/E188CC ~  2 pair (both pair Cryogenic)
(US/Great Britain) Ediswan CV2492/6922 ~ 2 pair (one pair Cryogenic)
(Hungary) Tungsram 6922/E88CC ~ 1 pair
(Russia) Cryoset 6N23N/P-EB ~ 4 pair (2 pair from Steve)
(Hungary) Tungsram PCC88/7DJ8 ~ 1 pair.



Knowing this, it is time for my next round of personally knowing what the 6P3S-E 6L6's and a good quad of EL34's (deciding which ones) might contribute/WITH my input tube rotation's. I realize, I will give up some power with these output power quad's/quite okay.  

Then, it will be "a wrap" for me......with a good tube stash/Rolling.

I will report back too. Keep your next impression's coming LR.







Listening Room:


Room Treatments from Michael Green & Home Brew

Sony as Transport (DVP-NS57P)/Sandwich weighted for Isolation

Illuminati D-60 Digital Coax IC

Shunyata Research Ztron Alpha Digital Power Cord to ZDSD
{Extremely Significant}

Decware ZDSD DAC / Recorder ++
***************************************************************
W/Steve's Output Transformer's/kicking to the curb quite a few superb DAC'S!
***************************************************************
(@ -20 Ref Level, 0.0 Input volume and @ 16/192)


WBT-0102Ag RCA Kimber Select KS1030


Decware Zen Mystery Amplifier
~BIASED at *60* mA~
(NOS/Platinum/Mullard E188CC/7308's in my A12 an B12 Input positions Cryo Pair~NOS/Platinum/Telefunken E88CC for Inverter Tubes~NOS RCA 0A3's & New Quad of Tube Depot Stealth/Tung-Sol KT66's)
ZMA adjusted at 20% to 30-40% max ~ from 0 Gain


***************************************************
Kimber Select KS6063 Speaker Cable 8ft WBT-0681-Ag Spades
***************************************************


Acoustic Zen Adagio - Black Pearl (Modified)
.....from 8ohm Taps






Acoustic Zen Adagio's x-over's Modified/Full Range with Mundorf MCap Supremes-single Cap to each Tweeter/4.5k cross
(Gutted: 3kHz/18dB/Octave, Linkwitz/Riley Crossovers....with all crappy parts = gone)


XLO Pro Power Cord to ZMA
PS Audio P3 Power Plant / Pangea AC-9SE from wall to P3
(Transport and ZDSD, Regenerated/*120*~ Multiwave off...ZMA on High Current Output)

++ ZDSD DAC, kicked to the Curb: Auralic Vega, PS Audio PWT & PWD, PS Audio Direct Stream DAC, Chord Qute, NAD M51 (twice) & Schiit Yggdrasil.

Reply #194....Lon sent LR.

PS-if the two new quad's I have coming (EL34 & 6P3S-E 6L6's) don't impress me/KT66's win (meaning ~ if I don't care to rotate them and exclusively stay with KT66's)....I will sell them in the Classified's here, before posting in AudiogoN.

I've not heard back from Steve on what he recommends baising the 6P3S-E at. So I reread the ZMA manual (RTFM!) and he says to basically dial tubes in at 50, so that's what I did. I let the amp warm up for over an hour as I was struggling with my ROON server. (long story short) Roon released a version that runs on my Synology NAS, though they recommend more power, RAM, and a Solid State Disk Drive since ROON is very power and speed hungry. My Synology wasn't cutting it so I made some tweaks to try and make it run smoother - the music was occasionally hiccuping when I'm rattling the NAS drives, and the Android interface was lagging. So it took over an hour for me make changes and reinstall. Looks like I might have to just bite the bullet and build a ROON specific Windows Core PC. Still, it's a lot easier to use than Foobar2000 and all those tweaks that go along with it. Roon via Bridge II is super-simple (and it's nice to see the DirectStream Display say DOP DSD64 without me puzzling over settings)

Anyways, tubes were idling while I was doing the software, and I jumped into the Folk/Rock category and just pressed play. I was pretty quickly engrossed, and enjoying letting the software discover artists and tracks it considered Folk Rock. Which then inspired me to run down to the garage/shop and grab some of my Styro-fractal diffusers and place them around the livingroom - moving some furniture and just tweaking the sound a bit. It wasn't long before I had this huge soundstage with lots of vocal and guitar (midrange) detail.  

It was then I remembered these weren't my tubes but the ones Lon had sent me.  :D

So I sat down in the sweet spot and opened up my ears as objectively as I can. I think one of the few listening talents I have (that Steve has helped cultivate in me) is to shut off what I think and just speak about what I hear; or just "go with my first (gut instinct) thought" as it's usually right.

Pretty much the same feeling - bass just pretty much not there. Mid-range detail and microdynamics are pretty much holographic, which is just perfect for the genre I was listening to. High frequency extension that I love so much was missing. (Edit to Add) The strident upper mids seemed to have mellowed out as I totally forgot about them - letting the tubes warm up and giving them a little more juice probably took care of that)

With the styro-diffuser fort I pretty much built for myself the wall of sound was HUGE, but not deep, and except for the mids I didn't have that holographic (sharp) detail of each instrument taking up space in my room, nor being able to hear the room that the recordings were made in like I do when I'm at Palomino's place. But that's all more the fault of my room rather than the tubes or gear at all. I know my gear resolves, I just need to build a good room around it. Still, this was very involving and I listened for four hours straight last night...and I've not done that in over a year.

Thanks again, Lon. This was very much appreciated. These tubes would be nice to have that holographic midrange, but I miss the high frequency extension and bass that (IMHO) makes the music more full and involving. I'm betting I could live with these tubes better if I could figure out how to integrate my 21" subwoofer with 2000 watts behind it, Crossed from 60Hz down.

The ZMA is very neutral, IMHO. And without any tone adjustments, you get out what you put in. I think that's why Steve, Larry, and I all lean to KT66 - they seem to cover the most ground pretty neutrally (again IMHO).

As for high frequency extension - I should clarify: I think I'm a bit more sensitive to really high frequency extension. That's part of what I loved about the original little Zen amp - those tubes Steve uses go up to 100khz if I recall, and it brought out so much harmonic detail and spacial cues that I found involving. That harmonic detail is also something I think the ZMA does as well, but again, in a very WYSIWYG way. And Lon, I know you don't dig an abundance of treble - so our preferences are different.

This weekend I'm going to swap back and forth between my tired KT66 and these 6P3S-E and see if my feelings still hold true. I'll see if I can dig out my used Golden Lion (emergency backup) KT66 tubes and make this a 3-way death match. LOL

Oh yeah, so I'm in bed and my girlfriend comes home from teaching her dance class - "so what's with the foam things all over the living room...what are they doing there?"
Me - "doing the things that styro-foamy things do" and I fell right back asleep.  ;D

hey Lon....

I was just perusing through this thread and read about the Reflector 6P3S-E/6L6GC/5881 tubes at Cryoset.  I think you and I have very similar Torii's.  I have JJ 6CA7's(2 sets), Tung-Sol EL34b's from Decware, GL KT-66's.  About any of them can produce "acceptable" sound when paired with appropriate input tubes.  But I "optimize" based on what source/cables/preamp I'm using from time to time.  Ain't tube equipment "flexibility" great?  But it can be a "curse" too!  :)
I did however "settle" a year or so ago on NOS RCA 5U4G's, OA3's and OC2's.

Anyhow... a guy just can't have enough tubes to roll can he?  Especially when they're this cheap!  So I just ordered some of these too.  I couldn't find anything "bad" about the 'E' version of these in print anywhere - they must be at least relatively good sounding or people would be complaining.  I saw that LR didn't like them in his ZMA.... interesting - though that amp is a "different" beast than the Torii.  I've had my Torii III w/Jupiters for over three years now.  I haven't heard anything driving crossover-less, wide-banders, that is better yet to my ears.  Now... for more conventional, multi-driver speakers with passive crossover's... I have heard better synergy than my Torii.  I guess that's why I have 6 amps and 4 preamps.  I really, really need to get to "one" setup.  I'm hoping my visit to Zenfest this year will help me become more decisive and get me settled on one setup.  I realize we "philes" be a fickle bunch - but I still have hope..!!!  ;D

Quote:


I wouldn't say I don't like them...I had a great listening session last night. I'd say I don't like them as much as KT66.

Now that I'm thinking about guitar amps, I'm wondering if these 6P3S-E would sound good in guitar amps.  :)

(not that I've played guitar at all lately - ugh)

Quote:


I think I understand that lack now. Let's see how I feel this weekend after doing some tube swapping.

Wow, I just realized a week from tomorrow is Zenfest!

Lon, thanks for the clarification.  That's what I though but with all of the number and letter designations I got confused!  

LR, I am not bass shy at all with these tubes but I am also running a very different front end than you, including a CSP3.  As far as high frequency extension goes, I like what I hear.  Or more to the point, I like what I CAN hear!    (I need a deaf guy emoticon.)

I don't know about all 6L6 Will, but I read on this board that these do access the Hazen Grid Mod and they certainly sound that way to me.

Decided to hold off on the 6L6 power output tubes.

I'm in bliss with my favorite tube compliment of:

~NOS/Platinum/Mullard E188CC/7308's in my A12 an B12 Input positions Cryogenic
~NOS/Platinum/Telefunken E88CC for Inverter Tubes
~NOS RCA 0A3's
~& New Quad of Tube Depot/Tung-Sol KT66's.

Single capping my Adagio's is probably the best thing I have ever done (18 months ago).


Everyone have a great fall/winter of Listening Sessions for your Soul!








Listening Room:


Room Treatments from Michael Green & Home Brew

Sony as Transport (DVP-NS57P)/Sandwich weighted for Isolation

Illuminati D-60 Digital Coax IC

Shunyata Research Ztron Alpha Digital Power Cord to ZDSD
{Extremely Significant}

Decware ZDSD DAC / Recorder ++
***************************************************************
W/Steve's Output Transformer's/kicking to the curb quite a few superb DAC'S!
***************************************************************
(@ -20 Ref Level, 0.0 Input volume and @ 16/192)


WBT-0102Ag RCA Kimber Select KS1030


Decware Zen Mystery Amplifier
~BIASED at *60* mA~
(NOS/Platinum/Mullard E188CC/7308's in my A12 an B12 Input positions Cryogenic~NOS/Platinum/Telefunken E88CC for Inverter Tubes~NOS RCA 0A3's & New Quad of Tube Depot Stealth/Tung-Sol KT66's)
ZMA adjusted at 20% to 30-40% max ~ from 0 Gain


***************************************************
Kimber Select KS6063 Speaker Cable 8ft WBT-0681-Ag Spades
***************************************************


Acoustic Zen Adagio - Black Pearl (Modified)
.....from 8ohm Taps






Acoustic Zen Adagio's x-over's Modified/Full Range with Mundorf MCap Supremes-single Cap to each Tweeter/4.5k cross
(Gutted: 3kHz/18dB/Octave, Linkwitz/Riley Crossovers....with all crappy parts = gone)


XLO Pro Power Cord to ZMA
PS Audio P3 Power Plant / Pangea AC-9SE from wall to P3
(Transport and ZDSD, Regenerated/*120*~ Multiwave off...ZMA on High Current Output)

++ ZDSD DAC, kicked to the Curb: Auralic Vega, PS Audio PWT & PWD, PS Audio Direct Stream DAC, Chord Qute, NAD M51 (twice) & Schiit Yggdrasil.


~NOS Platinum Tubes from Upscale Audio/Kevin:

(Great Britain) Mullard 7308/E188CC ~  2 pair (both pair Cryogenic)
(Germany) Telefunken E88CC ~ 1 pair
(US/Great Britain) Ediswan CV2492/6922 ~ 2 pair (one pair Cryogenic)
(Hungary) Tungsram 6922/E88CC ~ 1 pair
(Russia) Cryoset 6N23N/P-EB ~ 4 pair (2 pair from Steve)
(Hungary) Tungsram PCC88/7DJ8 ~ 1 pair.

Quote:


I just looked up the tube data on the 6P3S, and it looks like pins 1 and 8 are internally connected, just like on the 6L6, so they *don't* work with the Hazen Grid Mod.

I'll double check by finding another tube data chart, but they seem to be internally wired like 6L6.

Here - I found an image describing what I'm talking about:



On EL34, the Suppressor Grid goes to Pin 1 on the tube and nothing else. The Hazen Mod puts a small cap between Pin 1 and Pin 8 (cathode) to do it's magic.  Most of the common audio tubes we use have an internal connection between the grid and cathode, so that cap does nothing when we put those tubes in.  The 6L6 is this way, and so it appears the 6P3S-E are as well since they are basically a Russian 6L6.

Tonight I'll take a multi-meter to the tubes you let me borrow and see if I get a connection between pins 1 and 8. And I'll double check this with a pair of EL34 from one of my guitar amps.

There is a chance that the tube data from these Russian tubes is wrong. People could simply be cutting and pasting pin-outs for 6L6 when internally they could be open like the EL34. Steve would know for sure I'm betting, but I'll see if I can meter it myself.

Cool experiment LR curious to see how it turns out. I love my RFT EL-34 in my Torii. I think the Shugang 6ca7t (i believe) are also sleepers in the Torii. I prefer both those types over the KT66 I've tried. To me the KT66 although clear and tight were just a little sterile for my liking.

JD

Will... anybody who's interesed

I got my 6PS3-E's from Cryoset right before Zenfest, but am just now getting around to plugging them in.

If the CCE/Hazen Grid Mod requires "pin 1" to function, then it DOES NOT work with these 6PS3-E's, because they don't even have a Pin 1 out at all.

Only have about an hour on them, nothing stands out, as being extraordinarily bad or good yet.  They're certainly not "bad".  Considering their cost, one might even adjudge them to be a "great value" even right out of the box.  
But I wouldn't expect the inherent sonic character of a brand new tube to reveal itself in the first hour of use either.....

Quote:


It's funny, I'm sitting here with my Multi-Meter. I dug up an old pair of EL34, my tired KT66, and Lons 6PS3....and I grab the 6PS3 and...no pin. LOL

That said, if I jam my Fluke multi-meter's probe into where pin 1 should be, it seems to have internal connectivity with Pin 5. So that's a non-starter as well.

I wish there was a goot KT tube that worked with the Hazen Mod. I think that would get me more of the holographic sound I'm looking for.

Lon, did you get those JJ 6CA7 tubes from Cryoset?  Just to clarify, they are an exact replacement for the EL34 and take advantage of the Hazen Grid mod?

Hmmm, real KT66, milspec even!

https://tubedepot.com/products/kt66-gec

I have an itchy mouse finger and I might just use it! LOL


..... Then I looked at bills and that drop kicked me back into reality.

LR, how is it going with the 807's and the adapter's? How about anymore thoughts on the tubes Lon sent you?

I'm in the Camp....Steve chose the reissue Tung-Sol KT 66's for the ZMA for a reason. They do cover it all; top highs to lows and midrange.

IMO, NOS input and inverter tubes derive better sonic pleasures. Not to say, I won't some day roll some different power output tubes in my ZMA-just, not right now.  I'm having to much fun with the inputs and inverter's.

~NOS/Platinum/Mullard E188CC/7308's in my A12 an B12 Input positions Cryogenic
~NOS/Platinum/Telefunken E88CC/6922 for Inverter Tubes
~NOS RCA 0A3's
~& Quad of Tung-Sol KT66's (almost 12 months in on 2nd quad ~ original quad I retired at 22 months old)

.....had my Ediswan's in for 10 days....but missed my Mullard's in the inputs.......... . Edi's might have a little more slam....but they fall just a little short of the magic of the Mull's....on up in the spectrum.

Looking forward to my MicroZOTL2.0 next week! I will put it through its paces for a couple weeks and see if it is as transparent, dynamic and micro subtle with bloom of timbre and soul, as has been reported.

Cool.

I found room in my Christmas budget to me for the Linear Tube Audio ZOTL2.0 (no guarantee it's staying~15 day trial is fair~he asked to burn it in for me for 4 days~I said please do-then ship it to me).

I'm going to get a good quad of EL34's too. Heck, I did not know you can get the Hazen Grid mod mojo with them in our ZMA's? I did not think I was reading that correctly in the previous posts here?

I recently found a good deal on a new cartridge that was a bit of an upgrade from my current cart -- sort of a next generation.  I've been preferring my Russian 6P3S-E tubes to the KT66 with my old cart but I found I liked the KT66s with the new.  As soon as I went back to my old cart I switched back to the Russian tubes.  So, maybe no surprise, but tube choice for me is source dependent.

I went back to LR's Reply #221, and read through here. I'm not clear on which EL34's to get, to access the Hazin Grid Mod? Things got vague to me? Seems we do have the cap / suppressor thing going (or not) in the ZMA? .....So, which EL34's?

I was taking Lon's word for the Hazen Grid with the JJ 6CA7s from Cryoset.  They are relatively cheap so not a bad risk.

Does anyone know where I get some Ediswan 6922 tubes? I bought one off eBay a few months ago and love what it does as an input tube on my SE84UFO. Would love to get some more.

Yeah pursuit, you will need to keep an eye on Audiogons tube section for sale and US audio mart has a tube section too + eBay of course. I covet the two pair I have. If you are vigilant, they will turn up on these sites.

Kevin at Upscale put away the few coveted pairs he had left or a Sultan made him an offer he could not refuse for them.


Mark, yes, I will check the RFT's out = cool.