Forums - ULTRA-LINEAR

Steve Deckert

Administrator

If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 6397

ULTRA-LINEAR
05/18/15 at 18:19:06

As some of you have noticed with the Mystery Amp, and now possibly the coming TORII JR., I am doing work with Ultra-Linear transformers despite bashing them in my original design papers for the original TORII. Since ultra-linear is a form of feedback my purist tunnel vision of 20 years ago steered me away from it.

I had a uniquely good listening room in the 90's that is responsible for me starting Decware. I spent 10 years listening in it every night from 10:00 P.M. to 3:00 A.M. and used that time to form my opinions on how things should sound. (single, self employed and no neighbors made such a thing possible)

It was actually four rooms that were interconnected together with large openings. Below is an illustration of the room.

I had a visual line of sight that extended 30 feet behind the speakers. I became addicted to sound stage depth.

I found typical use of negative feedback destroys sound stage depth, preventing it from reaching the pink zone above. The difference between Ultra-linear and non-ultra-linear was making small differences in the pink zone. This was 20 years ago and my amps have evolved considerably since then and I have also realized that in 20 years, 10,000 customers, 54 countries, only 6 people have a room that even comes close to the above illustration, therefor the pink zone will never be experienced by 99.9% of our customers. This is why after the great success of my Zen Mystery Amp, I have been revisiting ultra-linear designs.

Steve

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Lonely Raven Seasoned Member Jack of all Trades, Master of None Posts: 3567	Re: ULTRA-LINEAR Reply #1 - 05/18/15 at 19:34:35 Steve, am I misreading this, or are you saying the ZMA is already an Ultralinear design? If that's the case, is there no plan for UFO upgrades for the ZMA?
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Lon Seasoned Member "Love without guts is worthless!" Philip K. Dick Posts: 25751	Re: ULTRA-LINEAR Reply #2 - 05/18/15 at 20:16:39 Or maybe he's saying that since he's reached this pinnacle with the ZMA he's now turning towards exploration of ultralinear amplification.
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Steve Deckert Administrator If the 1st watt sucks why continue? Posts: 6397	Re: ULTRA-LINEAR Reply #3 - 05/18/15 at 22:32:42 The ZMA is an ultra-linear design, yes. The only way it will ever see a redesign of it's output transformers is if some other Decware amp proves to sound better as a result of UFO transformers. Steve
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Lon Seasoned Member "Love without guts is worthless!" Philip K. Dick Posts: 25751	Re: ULTRA-LINEAR Reply #4 - 05/18/15 at 22:54:50 Sounds like a challenge. C'mon Torii IV!
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beowulf Seasoned Member Posts: 1449	Re: ULTRA-LINEAR Reply #5 - 05/19/15 at 00:02:23 Wow, I did not know that the ZMA was UL ... What about the Torii Mono's then?
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Fireblade Seasoned Member Knowledge comes, but wisdom lingers. A.L.Tennyson Posts: 1046	Re: ULTRA-LINEAR Reply #6 - 05/19/15 at 00:10:06 Would this explain the slight (but tangible) transparency advantage of the Super Zen vs the ZMA? Or is it only soundstage depth related?
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mark58 Seasoned Member Posts: 5647	Re: ULTRA-LINEAR Reply #7 - 05/19/15 at 00:46:28 Yes, the Torii Monos have Ultra Linear output stages...as per the features on the product page. Mark.
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beowulf Seasoned Member Posts: 1449	Re: ULTRA-LINEAR Reply #8 - 05/19/15 at 00:56:02 Thanks Mark I never noticed that ... perhaps because they are out of my price range I just never went too deep within the specs!
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Dave1210 Seasoned Member Posts: 959	Re: ULTRA-LINEAR Reply #9 - 05/19/15 at 01:54:49 My experience is that it depends on the amp/speaker combination (among other things). I have heard the ZMA sound more detailed and musical than the CKC and vice versa. It’s easier for humans to group things, Class A vs. Class D, SET vs. Push/Pull. Trust your ears…these are very complex systems…and generalizations often don’t apply.
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will Seasoned Member Posts: 3087	Re: ULTRA-LINEAR Reply #10 - 05/19/15 at 02:02:32 Agreed
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Fireblade Seasoned Member Knowledge comes, but wisdom lingers. A.L.Tennyson Posts: 1046	Re: ULTRA-LINEAR Reply #11 - 05/19/15 at 12:51:42 Right, I see. This brings me some hope to lift the Mini Torii up to par in microdetail-transparency through all the mods in sight. I also need to explore some more tube-rolling in the high end of the tube market segment. Thanks!
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Lonely Raven

Seasoned Member

Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 3567

Re: ULTRA-LINEAR
Reply #12 - 05/20/15 at 02:56:07

Quote:

My experience is that it depends on the amp/speaker combination (among other things). I have heard the ZMA sound more detailed and musical than the CKC and vice versa. It’s easier for humans to group things, Class A vs. Class D, SET vs. Push/Pull. Trust your ears…these are very complex systems…and generalizations often don’t apply.

Agreed.

When I brought my ZMA to ProgRobs room, he was grinning like an idiot over the grunt of the ZMA, and Palomino and I were draw-dropped over the layering and detail of his CKCS.

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ProggRob Seasoned Member CDApS Member Posts: 239	Re: ULTRA-LINEAR Reply #13 - 05/20/15 at 03:11:17 Like I've said, if I had to choose between the Zen and the ZMA, I wouldn't. I'd buy both!
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Dave1210 Seasoned Member Posts: 959	Re: ULTRA-LINEAR Reply #14 - 05/20/15 at 17:24:57 I like how you think ProggRob!
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stone_of_tone

Seasoned Member

Listen Often/Listen
Deep

Posts: 3217

Re: ULTRA-LINEAR
Reply #15 - 05/20/15 at 18:16:46

Oh yeah, my SE84CS runs my Modified Adagio's nicely. I still love the little bugger. Do own both, life is short.

I hope Steve makes the 6C33C Mono-blocks. Right now, I'm eyeing these Quicksilver's. However, I want Steve's design and SE Triode. 14 to 22 watts per channel is plenty.

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/tube-quicksilver-triodes-6c33c-mono-amps-2015-0...

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Room Treats-M.Green & mine
Sony TPort
Illuminati D60
Shunyata Z-Alpha DigPcord
Decware ZDSD DAC
Kimber Select KS1030
XLOProPcord
Decware ZMA/25th Mods
Kimber Select KS6063
Acoustic Zen Adagio/Modified
Kimber PK10 Palladian from wall
to PS Audio P3

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Palomino Seasoned Member Posts: 2507	Re: ULTRA-LINEAR Reply #16 - 05/20/15 at 22:28:57 Those look pretty nice!
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stone_of_tone Seasoned Member Listen Often/Listen Deep Posts: 3217	Re: ULTRA-LINEAR Reply #17 - 05/21/15 at 16:13:48 Yeah Pal, they are very tempting. However, when you own a ZMA....I don't need those. However, I want single tube 6C33C output from the mind of Steve. The 6C33C, can be a bit fickle. But, very worth taming it.
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