They are pretty artistic looking.  And as long as you use water based paint, you can paint them how you want.  I am thinking about alternating the colors on each panel.

I have spent some more time with these and another observation I have is how even the soundstage is.  I think they must diffuse across a pretty wide band (as advertised) to provide such a smooth presentation.

I am digging through tracks to find the most ambient ones because they are a real treat.

Since my QRDs that these replaced are not working in the front of the room, I am experimenting with how they sound in other places.  So far, no luck.

I may try the QRD array in the front.  

My most recent try was the two QRDs in the front with a gap in the center.  That killed the image and boosted the bass.  The reason I tried that was when I put a single QRD in the center, the center image became fuzzy.  The array may be the ticket.

I did lay the QRDs sideways across the back on the floor and thought that actually helped.  Do people run QRDs sideways??

It will be trial and error and CDApS demoing.  I trust Raven/Rob combo will help me sort this out.

BTW, I could easily try yours in an array across the back for A/B.  That's one of the nice things about these stryro diffusers.  You can move them around easily.

With the foam diffusers, I put some "sideways" in the front, and on *one* side wall, mostly because they were easier to stack than stand-up on the skinny base. And I really enjoyed the sound.

But then, I also have Omni-fuser diffusers on my ceiling - so any sound I bounce upwards gets further diffused.

We may just need to bring all available diffusers over to your place and let you have at it for a week or two and see what you come up with. Each room is different, and you've got a good ear for shaping the soundfield - so I'm sure you'll get it eventually.

Note: I still think you might need some more absorbers. I know you think you have a lot - but your offsetting some of that absorption with diffusion.

Palo,

I'd like to run through a couple of your scenarios on the diffuser front.  If you can narrow it down to 2 possible configurations we can do an A/B, and then afterward possibly let Raven and I change a couple things for an option C.  I'm sure there are dozens of variations possible so you've got your hands full!  I haven't heard your system before so I'd like to spent some time upfront getting to know it "as is", the more scenarios we add the more confused my little brain becomes.

I've had Raven's diffusers for a couple weeks now, and while I haven't done a lot of experimentation with them I have a few takeaways:

- The foam material definitely has a different sound than wood.  Sounds have an "edge" that, while superior to no diffusion at all, is not preferable to me vs. Palo's wooden QRD13s.  I probably won't buy the PI Audio diffusers.  Also, they make me terribly nervous with the children.  I'd hate to buy them only to have a curious child snap off a fin.

- I don't like them on the front wall because of the impacts it has on imaging.  Perhaps a different design or mounted in a central location under my TV would work better, but positioned behind the speakers is not an improvement.

- They are, by far, most impactful (in a positive way) at the 2nd reflection points.  I hear less differences behind the listening position and could probably live without them here.  A couple of kick-ass diffusers at the 2nd reflection point would make me a happy dude.

- I do not prefer these diffusors at the 1st reflection points vs. my GIK 244 traps with the 1D scattering plate.  The GIKs seem to do a better job here.  I don't have words for it right now, but I like the absorption/diffusion mix these offer vs. pure diffusion.

We also wanted to do some cable swaps if I'm not mistaken.  I can bring over the HFC digital cable to compare to your XV2.  I did a final comparo yesterday with this cable vs. the Grover Huffman ZX+ and the Grover got beaten soundly.  

Rob

I have tried a number of variations with diffuser and absorbers in different position.  I am finding some similar things but some differences as well.

1.  I don't find that the styro stepped (SS) diffusers have a "sound" yet.

2.  The SS seem to have a more smooth diffusion across the frequency range versus the QRDs being much more mid range focused.

3. Wood QRDs at the second reflection point do seem to provide me with the best diffusion - at least the most noticeable.  If I remove these, it all falls apart.

4. Absorbers at the first reflection point is still better than diffusion.

5.  At first I thought I preferred no diffusion up front, but now with an array of 3 QRDs up front, a QRD at each second reflection point and the SS array in the back is my preferred setup.  This seems to optimize diffusion while still providing a focused center image.  I'll continue to experiment with this to be sure.

6.  I believe the SS diffusers in the back do help with diffusion but don't think they alone would give me what I am getting with the combo.

Raven is coming over a little pre-Axpona listen.  Feel free to come by and bring a cable or two.  Just don't bring anything that I will feel I can't live without.

Also, if anybody is interested in my $60 Menards special QRD7 design, let me know and I will send you my instructions or post them.

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I would like to point out - this is what I predicted/suggested would be your end result.  Your room has for sure leveled up - It's amazing how the diffusers helped balance the frequency response so much that it resulted in blacker background, and more defined space between the instruments! I'm still trying to wrap my head around how diffusers give you blacker background - but we proved it by swapping diffusers for absorbers. IMHO - absorbers are a band-aid, diffusers can be a fix (for certain frequencies - if you have enough room in your room)

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I honestly never really noticed you had a window there till your room got so well defined that I could literally "hear the window". To describe what we mean when we say we can hear a window or hear a desk - here is a little story that happened to me a long, long time ago; I had a small one bedroom apartment, and right after I met Steve and heard his heavily diffused room, I bought his plans and built a few of his diffusers and setup my little apartment listening room as best I could. I literally took out the laser pointer and tape measure and got everything physically balanced left, right, front, and back as best as I could to within 1/4" or better if I could (a method I still use today). One day while trying to show to an interested friend what all this effort produced - we were both listening with our eyes closed, and suddenly the sound field shifted! The reverb in the recording started to flex and bend like the room the recording was done in was bending or something. It absolutely snapped me out of listening mode with a WTF is THAT! My eyes popped open and I see my cat casually walking across the the living room between us and the speakers. I look over at my friend Jason and he's got the same WTF look on his face. The cat, just a typical Bengal (nothing ordinary about a Bengal LOL) was walking across the carpet, and his body was causing an imbalance in the sound field and reflections that we could hear!! And keep in mind, these were standard tower speakers, and my cat isn't 4' tall. Think of it like this - imagine the speakers as bright headlights projecting light into the room. All reflective objects are bouncing that light around, and this little 8" tall, 22# cat (he was all muscle) was casting a shadow that we could hear!!

So bring this back into Palomino's room - he's got these absorbers and diffusers in the room, balancing things quite well, and his speakers and seating placement have been tweaked in a year of listening. Everything sounds good, but I can hear something off on the left side...up high...I open my eyes and hey...there's a window there I never noticed. Listen more carefully, and I think I can hear a glassy sound...oh, and a bird tweeting. "I think you need to plug that window".  

I've caught Steve like this before - he'll be showing something off, and I keep hearing something off, looking over my shoulder to figure what's going on. He's got a lot of speakers and gear in the room so it's hard to place what's off or out of place. He sees me not looking relaxed (Steve reads body language when he has guests over for a listen by the way, and he's gotten good at it over the years LOL), and asks what's up. I tell him something over my left shoulder sounds weird (mind you, not surround sound, speakers are up front), and he's like Oh Shit, I forgot to cover the movie screen; pulls some little curtains over the screen and blamo, the world is right.

So if you're not hearing the *things* in your room...well, life is probably a lot easier for you. LOL But it also says your room isn't setup well enough to allow the music to stretch out and open up and take over your room. Yes, yes, yes. I'm sure you've got soundstage and your walls disappear and bla bla bla. But there are different levels to that; just like there are different levels of how good speakers, and cables, and DACs and Cartridges sound like, right? Well, I thought Palomino's room was great before, and it's leveled up now. He's got it on a different plain of existence LOL.

Is it up to the level of sound I heard at Steve's listening room back in '98? Honestly, not even close. Well, OK, he's maybe half-way there.  :-?

So if his room is so good sounding, how is it only half-way there?!?

Steve had more airspace. Sound needs room to stretch.

Steve had wall-to-wall diffusers, plus the diagphragmatic bass traps.

Steve's room was 100% dedicated. There was nothing in the room, but the audio gear (original Zen amp, $200 Denon CD, and his one off speakers), diffusers and bass traps, and a chair. *Nothing* else. No racks of albums, bookcases, desks, couches, pictures of Jimi Hendrix. Nothing.

Steve's speakers were super anal-detailed, and he dialed them in to that room. So he had imaging like nothing I've ever heard since, layering, and micro-detail. In that room, I understood what Steve says when he talked about "out of body experience", because I had left the room!

Could Steve's room have been better? YES! Today we understand a lot more about acoustics and acoustic treatments. His old room probably had a peak in the frequency response due to having too many of the *same* diffusers. We also have great tools for measuring the FR and decay time that just weren't available back then, except to the likes of Skywalker Ranch or other pro shops. So we could design room treatments to address that particular room's needs. Steve also didn't address the ceiling - I think we could have leveled up his room with that alone.

So imagine today's gear, a nice Torii or ZMA, plus a nice DAC or analog setup. Power Treatment and other tweaks and toys, and your favorite speakers. Then build a 100% dedicated and treated room.  :P  

Someday I'll get there. But it may have to wait till I get into another house. I'll literally buy a house based on being able to have a dedicated listening room with enough space, updated power, and start with an empty pallette for room treatment.

Sorry such a long post - but this all comes together, this journey we're taking. I felt I needed to explain some things, so those that may follow after us have an easier path and faster understanding.

I had a taste of that Zombie Dust you guys had, blech. Too bitter. The $20(!) Dogfish Head I had was good, although expensive.

I was trying to rib you about the surprise $20 beer.  I liked the Rob suggested brews.  I should have tried some of your Dogfish (like maybe a $1's worth).

I sent you guys a photo of the elevated diffusers.  They do help with opening up the height of the soundstage.  I wanted to build legs for these, but I can't get into the wells on both sides for bolts.  So I'll have to do risers.  20" will put them midway between floor and ceiling.

I am also going to experiment with 3 QRDs 13s up front and the two QRD 7s on the sides.

In today's installment of "diffusers for duffers," I will relay what I found out last night.  Sorry this has become a diffuser thread, but its what the CDApS guys are helping me with lately.

Anyway, I traded out the two outside QRD7's up front for the two QRD13's I had on the sides.  This gave me three QRD13's up front.  My two nicer ones and my prototype (which works pretty well considering).

Anyway, this array presents a noticeable difference.  The soundstage shrunk but the detail and focus increased with the QRD13s.  I thought that it sounded pretty good, but then I switched back and think I may leave the combo of two QRD7s and my prototype QRD13 up front.  It seems like a good trade-off for more of the wall of sound effect.  I would like to get other CDApS member input on this though because it could go either way.

I am getting great sound and really good detail due to what Raven termed a blacker background.  For example, most people can hear the "tape bleed" on Just a Little Lovin'.  But now I can actually get a pretty good count of the number of echos you can hear of 'this ol world' before she starts singing again.  I am not a detail freak, but this is some of what I can hear now.

Alas, I am still not hearing what I heard at Rob's.  The same level of layering and transparency is just not there.  I will put Rachael in as another test but I maintain my position that it's the Zen amp.  I'm not ruling out the balanced DAC input or even Rob's speakers, but my gut says "Zen."

I am on a spending freeze but once that is lifted, I will be sending Rachael back in for the UFO.  Perhaps that will help.

I put the El Caminos in last night as well.  When I want monster sound, these are my go to speakers.  My small room bass issue is exacerbated using these speakers, but I usually crank it up enough that I don't care.
Rob, we need to bring these over to your house to have a bass-off.

I can get you the exact dimensions.  It's supposed to be 2 3/4".  The mid-slat groove to mid slat groove is 3" with 1/8" (half) of the fin on each side.

Not sure I can picture what these will look like.  Is it an insert with 7 router grooves to align with the different well depths?

Are those well face grooves all cut at different depths?  So they are a mirror image of the overall diffuser profile?

cool  sumbitch must weigh a ton.

glad it didn't fall on me.

Looking good Pal...I bet it sounds excellent too!

Do you guys know what brand of diffuser they were rockin in the Merrill Audio room?

I believe the local shop is cloning these products.

http://www.diffusor.com/Produkter.htm

There was a shop in Jersey that was importing them, but they don't anymore and wouldn't tell me why.

I'm reaching out to the local shop and getting prices on Helmholtz absorbers for Palo, and seeing if they have any B-stock or Ikea wing diffusers for sale at a more affordable price.

Notice how they mention time delay? That's what I've been talking about with diffusers. That's part of what makes them so very much better than absorbers alone.

Yeah, but that's just to give you a heads up that there is some loss with the devices. The numbers are really low. Unless you had a fleet of these winged diffusers, it wouldn't impact your bass absorption much. But it does effect it some, which is why they are documenting it.

Another reason why I think these are pretty decent - the thorough documentation of the details.

Let me see if I have photos. My iPhone doesn't automatically back them up to DropBox like my Android phone does...but the camera on the iPhone is better.

I didn't take many photos. I think those drawings/PDF you got are the best option.

Edit to add: Looking at that PDF, I did some quick math. The devices are 11.8" deep, and about 25" wide. There are 7 wells (the middle one is probably a double well actually), so I'm calculating the wells are about 3.1" wide,  then subtract the material. So you're right in there.

We can clone these (roughly) - but we'd need to be able to make a template to rout the top and bottom pieces. This could be done in 1/8" material but would probably need a backing board...or do it in 1/4" material and not need a backing board.

I'm more interested in the Helmholtz for you though.

just a few more "sonic tuning devices" in your room Palamino... and there won't be room for you or your equipment!!!!  LOL  

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But it will sound GREAT!  LOL

Looks good to me!

I think that Raven, Rob and I all agree that the PI Audio worked, but imparted a certain sound on the high end.  We all three agree that wood sounds better but the sweet spot is more mid range and lower.

As far as the styro fractal diffusers go, I do not detect that they impart a sound signature to the room.  However, I have only had them in an array across the back of my room and only in combination with 5 wood QRD diffusers elsewhere in the room.  in contrast, we moved the PI Audio diffusers all around the room.

When I listen up close to them, they seem to not reflect sound at all.  It just sounds dead.  However, Raven said he could feel the change in the sound as Rob and I walked around behind the listening chair.  My gut says they are contributing to the soundstage I am now getting, but I can't pinpoint what they are adding.  Silly me, I have just been listening a lot lately and not experimenting.

A couple of other differences are shipping costs and containers.  The PI Audio come in a box nested.  Some of Ravens got dinged in shipping.  He also charges $70 a box of 2.  The Top Acoustics came nested within the original block of styro they were cut from and cost $30 via USPS for all 5.  The exterior styro was dinged up, but the diffusers were perfect.

Finally, the PI Audio are more fragile in that they have longer fins projecting from the base which are subject to easier breakage.

These are two different designs, and I don't think I have seen any pictures of the fractals on any walls other than the front and back.  I may experiment with that this weekend.

Fireblade - I like the PI Audio diffusers, but they do accentuate the high end. That may, or may not be a good thing in your room.

The wood diffusers, either by design, or because they are wood (probably a bunch of design, and little of material), don't.

If you can't have someone local make wood QRD for you, then I'd feel comfortable recommending these Fractal diffusers if they can ship them out to you. Keep in mind though, they need to be used in arrays. You can't just have one or two here and there. You need like 5 in a row for them to work correctly.

Add to that, I don't feel one wall being covered with them is really enough. I firmly because you need front and back.

It's a commitment to go diffusers. If you can get some nice wood ones made, a pair on the side walls can surprise you. But if you can get a couple arrays up, plus some on the side walls...you're room will disappear!

I did the maths and for an 18x18in QRD it would take 46ft of 1.5 x1.5 timber. Checked out my DIY store and it`ll cost around £35 - $55 per unit. I was thinking maybe 8-10 units for the room. Thats a lot of timber. I`ll check out my local timber yard first to see what his prices are like.
I just plan on using a hand saw and glue.