I got a nice lift recently by directly wiring my listening room on its own power circuit.  I do think it still sounds digital, so I opted to buy a LPSU and a SSD and see what that will do for me.

I have a 2010 Mac Mini, so I have to remove the switch mode power supply and put in a "filter" that comes with the external PS unit.  I will switch out the HD for SSD at the same time.  It does not look overly complicated and there are several YouTube videos showing how its done.

Given that I had good luck with the relatively cheap TeraDak PS units in the past, I decided to give their solution a shot.  I just have a hard time spending a grand on updating something I paid less than $500 on.  The TeraDak is $320 (although I see he raised his price to $340 after I bought).

I should have both installed this weekend.

Do you have a SSD in your mini-PC?

Palomino.

Also looking forward to hearing your impressions. I am wondering how you would describe what you still hear as "digital." I wanted to let you know that I had used most all the software adjustments from the link you posted on a different thread from Mojo Audio. Must have been the same source. I did keep my dock, but the rest I use. Also vibration management with feet, damping and weight, the RAM disk, an external Oyen Firewire mini drive for music, and some stillpoint pieces of RFI EMF filter paper on those little power supplies including on the computer.

With Pure Music and the Tranquility DAC (all 44/16), I really can't say it sounds digital, but so many things influence the sound, maybe I have toned those aspects out....don't know. I sent Rob (Pure Music) a copy of the RAM disk script and he said "...bear in mind that most of Pure Music is already loaded into RAM anyway when it is launched and has been running for a little while..." I wrote back saying he would still hear it! With Pure in hog mode, it does use surprising little CPU or RAM. I just put in Mavericks on my 2010 mini and was worried it would use too many resources, but I don't think I can hear it if it does. With the Finder and wi-fi quit (those are the ones I change manually), RAM disk with the Pure Music app, and the monitor app open to check it out, I use 20-21% of the CPU and 4.2 GB of RAM.

I have a spinning disk in the computer, though I put one in my old Mac Pro and it sure made it faster!

I watched those videos about the power supply change some months ago. Looks doable. Looking forward to what you hear.

Sorry to hear it. Mine is organic, engaging, and has a great soundstage with a similar Mini setup. Makes me wonder if it is the Mini. And I thought you had the qualities of musical detail and soundstage from your Mini/Chord before? I have always had pretty clean sounding power here, starting out with some great EMF/RFI filters and a transparent Brickwall. Then with more power improvements over time, I have had complications in this way several times, but always sorted it out toward better sound finally. Subtle distortion can be a pleasant, musical thing, and if we lose it, it can be a new complex. Finally though, I prefer clean power and texture from nice tubes like the early 60's Amperex Miniwatt PCC88s I have in now.

Seems with better power, all distortions are reduced and with the Toriis, the revealing aspects can get intense, making everything show more, good or bad. I could never get Audirvana to sound right here. It had all the right ideas of good sound, but always sounded a little fabricated rather than like real music.

Could it be the Torii, the change into cleaner power causing what was beginning to sound good before to get sterile now? That is weird to me that there is more detail and less sound stage. I am pretty sure that they have equated for the most part here, but I have never been satisfied with detail that feels unbalanced, lacking complexity and texture. So who knows, hard detail, no matter how revealing, is sterile detail to me, something I often equate with 6922 type tubes in the MKIII especially.

I also was not able to get great sound from plugging the Mini or Tranquility into my PS Audio P5. Eric at DbAudio always said to plug the Tranquility and Mini straight into the wall. I have mine running into modded Brickwall for protection, which also benefitted quite a lot by a Shunyata Defender plugged into the Brickwall...better texture and micro detail.

The Brickwall is plugged into the Audio plug, a 15 amp Furutech copper receptacle, which is a great sounding receptacle. It was notably more complex and textured, and warm without being dark than a cryo'd Pass and Seymour, or a hospital grade plug I had (which was a notable improvement over a standard receptacle). I would have called the Pass sterile by comparison to the Furutech, but I put it in the Brickwall and it is great for the Tranquility and Mini there. The P5 is plugged into the other side of the Furutech. This way the sound is great. The Mini/Tranquility in the P5 took the life out of the music...

Excellent power is tricky, but it has helped here every time once I got things friendly again.

I also am thankful every day since I finally broke down the "audio purity" bullshit and got my EQ dialed in. It could be a lot the dithered EQ with Pure Music though. I could not get Audirvana EQ'd to sound great, but I did not give it as much attention either. Now with little changes I can tune it a touch and I am right in the beauty again. I just stuck in some new speaker cables I had been burning in in the workshop. They were bass heavy and hard, honky, and sterile in the mids compared to my usual...So I made minor adjustments to the Eq over a day or so, and and now the sound is again beautiful, but with a nice, different quality from the cable change. I would hate to be without EQ now. Starting from the need to chill the low bass and give me better tube flexibility...Now, since I use it across the spectrum, it is pretty much equivalent a serious component upgrade.

Just thinking out loud. I feel for you and hope the Mini power helps.

I believe that the Torii is more revealing overall than the Rachel. (Which is a blessing and a curse!) Changes in power heighten this.

Just want to toss out a perhaps not popular suggestion: look at cabling. My whole presentation changed when I went from Decware ICs to cryoset and then VooDoo Audio interconnects. With the VooDoo, especially the Stradivarius, the sound is far more "analog." And to be honest when my system sounded its most "digital" was with the Decware interconnects. I was surprised how much the cabling impacted the overall sound, though I shouldn't have been. The Torii lets you hear so so much! I'm not sure what you're using but see if you can borrow something different from Eric et al or dig around in the closet and see if that changes things one way or another. . . .

Yes it's a pain but to be perfectly frank and honest. . . I really felt the Decware ICs were holding my system back and giving it an overall sound that did not work for me, and moving away from them was the best thing I did for fatigue-free listening and allowed me to better evaluate other components to the point where now I only want for a better turntable (in time) and to bring all my ICs up to the Stradivarius level (so expensive! but the difference is not subtle). I think that these machines really require attention paid to cabling to get to that final level, at least that has definitely been my experience. Try the cheap ones out and see if there is any significant change one way or another. . . .

Not sure anyone can hear the crickets due to my whining about having to look at cables as a possibility

I may be at a level now with the new amp where it all has to be reviewed.  Its a good problem to have.

When you guys are talking $1200-$1500 cables, yeah, there will be crickets. Especially when Palo is looking at $300 power fix that will only go to improve what the cables ultimately do.

I'll try out the $1500 cable thing - I too just don't feel like dealing with The Cable Co. I will have to eventually since none of my friends own $1500 cables to try out.

I just need a good 1.5m XLR between the DAC and ZMA.

Yeah, $1500 stretches the old wallet a little.  But then again, I thought that way about amps and DACs only a few years ago.  So never say never.

My current strategy is to hear what difference something can make, and if it is big enough, then try to emulate 80%-90% of it for less than half the cost.

For example, I plunked down $800 on a used Power Plant Premier only a few weeks after I heard your P10 Raven.   It was a no brainer.  Did I get 80% of what I heard with the P10 for less than half the price.  I think so.  Will I upgrade some day?  Probably, but only when the ratio comes more into my "strategic buying range."

I had the same self-imposed buying discipline with the Torii purchase.  My target was what I heard in the ZMA.  

I'm flying a little blind on the mini although I have "read" that what I am doing gets you 90% of the way there.  When I go to Core Audio for example, and put the package that I am assembling in my build, it comes out at around $3,000.  I am doing it for less than $1k (mini included in both build scenarios).

You may not be able (at this level) to cut the same corners in cables, but I may try if I hear them and if they make the kind of difference in my system as being suggested here.  It's part of the fun for me.

Anyway, I appreciate the cable suggestions even though I may not be able to get there right now.

I really think that's a great point.  Less wiggle room indeed.

p.s. Stone, I'll give you a money back guarantee.  If you buy that TeraDak LPSU for your Chord and don't like it, I will buy it off you for my 2TB firewire 800 drive that currently has a noisy SMPS.

I agree that they are quite fine. Some of us just are past the point of wanting or needng quite fine. To get beyond a certain plateau, I needed different cables.

Palomino,

Exciting you got the PSU! Looking forward.

I almost got that same PSU several times over the last couple years. I bet it will be really good once you adapt it to the system. I am not inclined to run the RAM disk with files either. The app being in RAM is pretty amazing, but you might recall, I had to tone things back with the RAM disk too since I had similar qualities tuned into the sound before it, and the cleanliness was in ways too much until I adapted the system to it. After that the inner clarity was an advantage. Seems this is pretty much the same as integrating system power improvements...less noise = a different sound, a new beginning.

And your new dedicated line....burnin time makes sense...we know burnin effects and benefits the sound with revealing systems, and though different than a power cable in some ways, why wouldn't we hear it with a wire run..new switch (breaker), metal, dielectric, and so on.

Related, I had such a hard time getting the P5 to sound right, a homemade cable the thing that made it happen for me, and I had a lot of good cables to try! Luck, but thank goodness.

Had my system not been so revealing and tuned before, this may not have been such a problem. But my baseline included truly balanced and very complex detail, something I have found to be a challenge to pull fully, and it is fragile. The P5 robbed me of that, even with the PS audio AC12. This level of complexity reflects more the outrageous synergy between the Tranquility and MKIV than anything else, but it would not have shown without everything else in the system/room being equal to the amp and DAC potential.

From my struggles and solutions...with power, all components, all tubes, all cables, room, vibration, and speakers...everything tweaked/adjusted pretty intensely....from this foundation, power from the P5 and tubes in the CSP3 were the areas I needed to fine-tune to pull serious micro detail. Before putting those two components in, the MKIV and Tranquility pulled outrageous micro detail easily. And even with my specially made P5 power cable and my best feet for transparency from the P5, I still loose out significantly if I put my DAC and computer into the P5, even with the Shunyata Defender in the mix.

I think this comes back to the same theme...all aspects and methods for clean power are not equal, each imparting a sound quality of their own, demanding system/room adjustment to get the real sound at this level of listening.

There are so many variables...when different feet, or cables, or the 5 tube sets in a Torii all effect the sound differently...this makes it seem complex... but then it seems that finding off-the-charts beauty is made possible by careful fine tuning of all of this. Seems from our mutual experience, we need the language of what we have to find extraordinary beauty. And the individual parts can be read pretty well be it an amp, a receptacle, a cable, a tube......

All our gear is revealing to start, but at some point less noise defines tighter perimeters for wiggle room. As it all gets better, the need for, and ways to get synergy, have to become more refined. One tube or cable (or whatever) that is nice with subtle power distortion might get chilly without.

And there is no doubt to me that once you go this deep, with the power, articulation, and clarity of the MKIII and MKIV....and with a thirst for fine detail....the edge between too sterile and brilliant musical detail can be a fine line....especially with the foibles of poorly done digital music. The acceptable area is wider with the MKIV implementation for me, but when an amp is as revealing as a Torii, and the sound so good, being a little off can be intolerable. Alternately, it is unreal good when it syncs in.

I have little doubt you will make your system "right" once you integrate everything.



And since cables are up, might as well comment there too. I stopped using Decware silvers a long time ago and moved around a little, but stopped with my favorite ICs quite a while back. They are affordable, though the parts are not cheap. They are home made from VHAudios Silver recipe and using KLE Silver Harmony RCAs (mine were on sale at parts connexion for 55). Musically revealing and neutral without hardness, they are truly beautiful cables, doing it all so well it is like they are "not there." Also Grovers are really nice, though I wish he had used a little smaller wire. When hooked into the Torii I find them just a bit "pushed." They are undeniably very good though, complete and neutral sounding and at 200 for a one meter pair (with a full refund return policy)...they are touted as giant killers by a lot of folks with good ears who have "played the field."

Sounds positive in about every way. And since it has shifted already, the caps will seat....all the wires and dielectrics work in...sure seems it would continue to improve. Looking forward to more impressions as it settles in!

Thanks, I have seen that software.

My primary issue is cloning the exiting mini HD onto a open HD that I can connect to my mini via USB or firewire.  Seems the target HD has to be blank because the cloning overwrites the entire contents of the drive,

I thought I could do this with an adapter that supports multiple drive types and go directly from the existing HD to the SSD (external connected via USB), but the adapter does not support the SSD interface.  Only SATA, IDE and something else I am not sure of.

Thus the interim step of cloning to an external SATA HD, pulling the existing HD, putting in the SSD and cloning back to it from the external SATA.

All commendable. However, all this is to much OCD for me (chuckle).

Steve's new machine coming to my door/utilizing all it's capabilities, will be fine with me. He built the better mouse trap with only limited involvement needed to yield great results, wanted by me an sure by others. Very small cons.......massive PRO's.

I wish I could tinker like that Palomino. I'm just jealous.

The convenience factor is lower....but a fair trade off to me. I think the Upsampling and Steve's Output design mirroring the density of the Otari will have the SQ for Redbook via Transport/CD and lossless WAV.

Will, I'll check the connection tonight.  Its more of a tab type connection on the SSD, not a pin interface.  I read several descriptions of this SSD working in the 2010 mini, but maybe I bought the wrong drive.

Thanks Dave,

I do have time machine backups.  What drive do you boot off of though once you have the SSD installed?  Boot from the system CD?

Maybe its in the article...

Well, I know its only been a couple days, but I am ready to declare with confidence that this is a very worthwhile upgrade.  If you have some torx screwdrivers (#6 &#8) and a little patience and $340 burning a hole in your pocket, go for it.  It is not hard to do.

Things have really smoothed out.  Just enjoying the music without nagging questions about should I do this or that.  I hope this lasts a few days at least  ;D

Biggest benefit is the lower noise floor allowing more of the music to come through.  For example, I love hanging on a chord where the musician applies that last bit of bend before the note fades out.  I could hear some of that before, but it needed to be a lot louder.  Now its a more full picture at lower volumes.

There is a lesser pickup in dynamics and bass slam as well as a pickup in detail, plus bass specifically is even more defined.  

Just to test my opinion on the smoothing out of the sound, I played some of the most obnoxious tracks I have.  The kind that drill a hole in your head.  These were fairly tolerable now.

I'm sticking with my original opinion on soundstage.  A little better front to back, but not any wider/taller than before.

I haven't listened that much to good analogue so I can't really compare it to that, but this is the best digital I have heard in terms of being organic and easy to listen to.  My previous system presented more a hard image if that makes sense.  Said another (perhaps more obtuse) way, the vibe I feel from the music is more at the right frequency.  Perhaps its that harmonics thing everyone talks about.  More even, less odd.

I may get a chance to put the SSD tonight in but I am not expecting much from that.  I'll give an update once I do.   I don't think we have that many Mac Mini people out there, but this has still been fun for me to do and report on.

I'll also toss Rachael in the mix at some point, change rectifiers back to the 274B and give the El Caminos a run.  I think the bass will be special.  I'll also get my audio wingman over here to give a listen and agree or call BS if necessary.

I put the SSD in last night.  I had forgotten that I could just pull out some drives in my big mac pro, put it on its side and place the mini HDD and SDD in the open slots standing straight up and then clone one to the other.  Took longer than I expected to clone, but it was very easy.

As expected the SSD didn't have a huge impact but it did add something desirable.

I'm struggling for the words, but the soundstage improved.  It didn't get wider or taller.  The only word I can find is it got denser, more full.  The details is still there, but its a fuller presentation.  The instruments are more together, but meld well into a denser, more complex soundstage.

I have never had a high end CDP or turntable, so I don't have a very good feel for what they sound like, but this is a liquidy smooth and blissful presentation.  Very enjoyable.  It does remind me of the feeling of real "music" I got when tlarwa brought his turntable over.

I still haven't transferred all my music files over to the external firewire 800 drive.  In fact, most of them are on the SDD now.  I'll make the transfer and see if that does anything more.

Here's how little I know, what's the difference between fiber optic and the optical out on the Mac Mini?  Jitter?  Optical out is not that great on the mini.  I did hear the newer ones have jitter under control.

LR,

I don't know fiber optics....though I understand how the cable and connections from here to there matters. But since the improvements in Palomino's experiment came from less noise up front and in internal parts, before the transfer to the DAC, I don't get the fiber theory. Could you fill that in further??? Does the fiber actually filter the output?

Palomino,

Since I have what sounds like beautiful, real music to me, I have not been able to understand the differences we get with the same Mini model...wondering if I was just lucky with my particular Mini, or with a quieter internal drive, or if the extra software tweaks I use help more than I thought....or maybe the external drive and cable I use makes a lot of difference...I know I prefer the the software player here....

And then the rest....how the power from the wall is managed; what the computer is going into and how it gets there; the amp and/or pre; the tubes, cables, room... Seems we have covered a lot of the same areas, but differently and to various degrees, but everything effects everything.

I know from my experience, that serious vibration control matters everywhere, relating equally to noise. Also noise reduction filters for draining and protecting from EM and RF on and around the gear and cable connections. And that your tubes would tend to the sterile/cool here; and that my ICs and speaker cables are very good for balanced, musical transparency, tonal density, micro detail and delicacy (at this point notably better than my Decware and other cables, especially mids down). The MKIV is really good at these too, the very fine detail having loads to do with friendly detail versus unfriendly detail....

And really, especially if the rest of the system is up to it, without weak points, and with the right tubes and cables in the CSP3, it alone can do things you describe, AFTER the DAC. Liquidity, tonal density, spaciousness, micro and inner detail, musical body.... integrating but also saturating and improving the sound stage area. As i think out loud, a lot of smaller things could add up to a pretty big thing.

But I think I have described, and still do describe my sound very much like your new sound with these new changes.

Then I hear you were still using an internal spinning drive for most music and system/software....I definitely see how the LPS and the SSD could improve this. And though the power supply helps with all computer noise, including drives, had you gone the opposite direction, the SSD first, and used a good external drive for music, it may have made a more notable difference.

At this level, it is all so delicate...maybe my using the internal drive only for software and highly minimized system, and an external FW drive and cable tested by Eric and the Tranquility folks as very quiet and musically compatible (Oyen Mini), could be more important than expected in combination with the rest.

Also, Eric said to even check FW cable both directions and the specific USB port on the Mini (I think you did this), the latter being quite notable and the former noticeable. Then I have a kichass USB cable out that sounds great and does not pick up any more noise, and the USB power to DAC from the computer is intercepted and picked up from a linear power supply, but I think you have a converter, likely similarly cleaning the transfer noises.

I guess if one thing is getting more clear, for the "analog" sound, the sum of the parts before the DAC does matter. And everything after also. At this level of refinement and from what we demand of the system...literally everything is a big deal. But whatever, I am really glad you got it with these changes and that is telling!

I just burned in and tried some Zu Liblec speaker cables on a whim to see what their stuff was like, and since they were really cheap at auction. They are nice cables, very dynamic and clear, a little warmth, articulate, good extensions....I ran them several days, adapting the system to them, but finally they just ended up kind of crude compared to the Morrows I have been using. Put them back in, and immediately I was glad to have the silver on copper back (though very small individual wires and lots of them)...more delicacy of detail throughout. I adjusted the EQ some over a few albums, and the gorgeous nuance and natural timbre came back without losing speed, but the speed became part of the natural sound of attack and space rather than notable on its own.

This was an eye opener to me. Cables folks love were really good, but for my system room, they took the whole down a few notches, back into that nagging thing of having to work to eek out the refinement I have come to expect, and finally, I doubt if it is possible from those cables.

All that said, though I don't feel much urge or need to improve things now, the sound is so satisfying, I am very tempted to go ahead and get a TeraDak LPS for the Mini. What it has done for your sound sounds transformative.... really, really good....like the real thing!

Thanks for going there and telling us the story!

Congratulation for your upgrade LPSU and SSD for Mac Mini!

I have done as same as you for my Mac Mini year 2012. I confirm that it is worth to upgrade.

I want to add that ;

1) Do vibration isolation of your LPSU by adding 3 cones under your LPSU. If you have Soundcoat damping material put between cone and LPSU, it will improve a lot. The locations to put cones under LPSU, you have to try to get best locations.

2) Power cord for LPSU has a big impact to total sound quality. Don't forget to use quality power cord for LPSU.

Cheers!

Not to take this thread down a completely different path, but how does fiber optic deal with something else that effects the 1s and 0s - jitter? or all this other clocking stuff I don't understand.

LR, that IS interesting...the fiber! When are you going to make it happen

Pal,

That is telling on the Caminos! Great news.

Quote:


Yes, it sounds like you have had challenges all along with power. Me too... I have done a lot with it, though with different focuses...me working more on the whole house and room power, along with varied and sophisticated in-system tools to catch noise from different frequency areas and methods....but covering the waterfront with a lot of little things adds up. Because of this, trying to use serious filtering (regeneration) without sound degradation....for me that was no mean task. Since this is a rarish perspective, my sound must be somehow different than many. The only thing that makes sense to me is that my system/room was extraordinarily resolving before the P5. Not a value judgement, just the nature of it.

From this perspective, I can't agree with most here that PS Audio is all that good out of the box... I was able to get what I needed, but with great effort. Compared to the Pi Audio Uber, it made the sound harder and colder, with a facade of analog warmth that seemed more a darkish veil, not what I would call musical warmth. But it had compelling aspects, and I wanted voltage regulation, I persisted. I often wonder what it would be like with some really good receptacles, like Furutech, but the warranty...

This experience makes me very interested in your LPSU experiences. Like system power units, all LPSUs are not likely made the same. And caps, wires, dielectric, resisters, plugs etc, we know they all effect the sound. Since the P5 choices would not have been my choices in this regard, this gives me somewhat cold feet.

But it is clear that your LPSU focus has been fruitful and efficient toward your goals, a very good pointer for me. On the other hand, I would not have thought of it from perceived need since combined, the power that gets to my DAC and MINI pre PSUs, with all the other tweaks to reduce noise, apparently works. Also makes me wonder if the Tranquility folks have done something special with their PSU since they recommend NO power treatment, and in general, my experience says that is true, that serious power treatment (like the regenerator) notably hurts its delicate and complex sound....makes it deader and more hard, which you could call sterile.

So I appreciate what I hear from you and Vyokyong, and though I didn't "need" a change, sounds like I might want one!

And I don't mean to compare when I talk about how much everything matters relative to sound, be the issue sterility or other. Its just that anything that messes with the balanced complexity of detail will cause hardness and coolness, not just noise or a P5....

I think it is true that source is all-important, but also, one cable set, or pair of tubes....if they diminish system potential, that one thing takes the system sound down to its level. Add up a number of them and we can lose a lot no matter how good it sounds...especially around the all-important detail complexity, critical for feathering edges and for revealing musical nuance throughout the spectrum. A hobbled system won't let us hear this fully, also not allowing us to hear how fully different gear, feet, cables or whatever change the system/room. At some point we could even become naysayers, saying cables don't matter or whatever.

Since this has been an area of exploration for me for a long time, and since I think of this forum as an educational tool for most of us, I keep thinking and talking about these details, but maybe it is not coming out as I feel it. I hate monkey spanking on forums, but I also get little from "its a nice tube" or "don't like it." Without clear explanations, where is the information to help me with system refinement....the only reason myself and I suspect many others hang out here.

I guess I am a mess, but I just can't consider anything in a "living" system like Decware can help us get in isolation.

Will, I like the holistic approach.  It was interesting that when I finally ran a quasi-dedicated line into the room, I had to re-think everything.  If I had to do it over again...

I would consider the TeraDak LPSU to be the most basic LPSU that gets the job done.  It does consist of the two components that the higher end companies provide - the internal filter and the external LPSU.  Some offer no internal filtering, just a hard wire to the logic board.  I haven't ever seen the guts of anyone's internal filter implementation, but my guess is TeraDak is on par with what else is out there.  I think it is rows of capacitors to smooth out the power.  I think where the difference is in in the external LPSU, where the higher end guys seem to have a more sophisticated approach.  I don't know much, but their boxes seem to be a lot more crowded.

In terms of going ahead with the gamble, think of it this way, I have a dedicated line, power regen, decent power cords and a decent dac.  The lift I got was on the order of 15-20%.   Pulling that SMPS can't make your power situation worse.  Different yes, but worse?

I think this thread has pretty much run its course anyway.  I tried it, it worked very well.  Maybe someone else will give it a try.

I found these claims on the Core Audio site and agree with most:

•More Organic character (yes)
•Higher resolution, blacker background (yes)
•More Immersive, bigger sound (more immersive yes)
•Larger, more holographic sound stage (not bigger, somewhat more holographic)
•Better musical flow, pacing, and energy (Yes)
•Zero listening fatigue - (very little fatigue)
•A Mac-Based Music Server that outperforms most, if not all, PC-based music servers (dunno on this one)

No, sorry just somehow ended up in the wrong thread. But I can recommend them, great music and sound.

I know that as much as I fiddle with my stereo it is best for me to not fiddle with a computer for audio as well! Especially as I'll be living with a fiancee soon and she's less interested in computers than I am and less interested in audio than I am and I'll be seeking special time for music again as I used to before I lost my wife. Sigh. But these lovely women are worth it.

But even if I had the time I like having music and computers separate. Just have never liked mixing them casually and can't imagine mixing them seriously. I like the discs. . . it's closer to making music than computer audio is, and making music is something I wish I could do more of.
(And oddly I may be able to expand my music playing--Lucinda would rather listen to me play than my recordings, and I've already permission to set guitar and bass instruments and amps upstairs and downstairs, and I will probably be able to work in a drum kit which is great because there are so few neighbors and they're spaced out!)

That Rubenstein and the Harnoy (listening to those now) are discs I probably wouldn't have enjoyed much at all a few years ago but really dig now! And its in part because of the sound quality I can reproduce them, unamplified instruments sounds so lovely when everything is dialed in, so real and right.

That's a meaningful comparison. I just got 25 records in the mail. The ZP3 is the source to beat.

I gave up on vinyl in the eighties, and I had a decent turntable and loads of LPs. I just got over ticks and pops (often on new records) and limited dynamics, except of 45 rpm LPs, and I just wasn't going to go there. Digital had its drawbacks to be sure, but ah well. And if I recall, my first Nakamichi CD player sounded relatively analog (real) with no tics or pops and with great dynamics.

I had already learned to have affection for Macs with years of design work and other cool things, so I never disliked computers...the opposite actually. With the Mini set up well, I got better sound by a fair bit than from a Rega Apollo or heavily modded Oppo I was using. I don't care what others use, but I really appreciate the convenience of playlists, EQ and other settings so easily done, being able to easily back up everything and keep it in another building, and so on. Whatever gets us what we need, right?

But to the LPSU...palomino said:

"In terms of going ahead with the gamble, think of it this way, I have a dedicated line, power regen, decent power cords and a decent dac.  The lift I got was on the order of 15-20%.   Pulling that SMPS can't make your power situation worse.  Different yes, but worse?"

Thanks for the thoughtful feedback. 15-20% is something I can't imagine, but I am willing to try I will let you know my thoughts once I get one in!

I would guess you won't see that big a change Will based on your description of what you are already getting.  It has been a game changer for me - just below room treatments in terms of impact.

I know on other forums some brave soul does the mod or buys the equipment then they ship the unit around and everybody weighs in.  I don't see that happening but I do open my home to anyone wanting to hear a decware amp.  This weekend we are having another get together and if I get ambitious Ill take the mini rig.  It would be going head to head with a good vinyl rig in a dedicated listening room.

With my "vintage" turntable going last night I was able to make some comparisons to the modded mini.  Very different beasts but the common thread was the organic nature of the sound.  It made me feel I'm headed in the right direction.

Well, I did put the Mac Mini/Chord Qute up against a good turntable system (see the CDaPs thread).

As I mentioned in that thread, the digital had more in the way of dynamics, but on vocals and certain instruments, the turntable was a lot smoother.

This was very troubling to me, because even prior to the trip to tlarwa's, I was feeling that I had introduced some harshness which simply was not there initially when I installed the LPSU.

The two tracks which were eye opening were Nora Jones "Don't Know Why" and Miles Davis "Summertime."  Both Nora's voice and Miles' trumpet had a distinct digital edge to them.  

So I started retracing my steps to try to figure out what I did.  I think I have it somewhat figured out.

I transferred all my music to an external firewire 400 drive - which uses a SMPS.  I previously had music scattered over both the internal disk drive and the external firewire drive.  After I installed the external SSD, I transferred everything to the external drive.

So I put the SMPS for the drive on another circuit and it helped.  I then set it up on a 12v battery and it helped more.  There is still something else going on because there is still a bit of an edge.  Keep in mind that I have also been experimenting with isolation which has sharpened things up a lot.

I am still getting good sound and happy I did the LPSU upgrade, but something I did has taken away the ultra smooth detail I first got.  I would have to think that by now I am through the break-in period on both the internal filter and the external power supply.

I did install a fan program which I will disable once I fix the fan sensor connection I broke while installing the internal filter.  I do have a monitor connected to the mini via thunderbolt.  I'll see what removing that does.

If anybody has an insights I am open to suggestions.

CDaPs stands for Chicago Decware APpreciation Society.  A bit of a running gag, but we do have three members now!

The "digital" sound was heard both with and without the isolation.  I was trying to figure out if it was a function of the isolation, then took it to one member of the "society's" house and heard it without any isolation.

I hear ya on getting sound you like and not worrying so much about how.  Unfortunately I had what I liked and screwed something up.  My issue is I don't recall exactly what happened prior to losing the sound I liked.

I did introduce the firewire drive after I did the LPSU upgrade.  I left the fan running for some time too before downloading the fan program.  Somewhere in there I tweaked Audirvana.  So my LPSU test was not very scientific.  Too many variables changed.

I am going to try some other things tonight.  I have a couple of input tubes to try.  For some reason I had a memory of the 6922 being less dynamic.  I may also seek out another version of Nora Jones song.  I have noticed that it is not as big a deal at lower volumes.

Anyway, I am just guessing now...

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I don't think so...

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Except our third member doesn't even own any Decware! He should at least pick up a token cable or something.  :P

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The nice thing about chasing windmills is that if you stand still, they'll come to you.

Take a break - step away from the nuclear weapon - and come back to it fresh. Or do like I did and muck it all up to the point you have to start over.  

Maybe I can loan you one of my Min-PCs and playing with something other than your Mac will help you come back to the Mac Mini with a fresh mind.

I still need to polish this turd that is my new PC. So I need to follow my own guidance and take a break before I shoot something and sell it up on eBay for $72.

It's hard to make a judgment about the sound in Tom's room, different room, and imo digital gear takes about 24 hours or more to be warmed up after being unplugged.

Do you think it's possible that the isolation is revealing a sonic charater (cables, source, ??) previously masked? Does the signature differ with multi-wave on or off on the PPP? (I found multi-wave on the PPP to add both bass body and a peak or edginess to treble in my system).

It's also possible that the isolation material (plywood, bearings) are imparting a signature. . . .

Well, I'm certain there are many benefits to computer audio that mean a lot to others (convenience ---not a big factor for me; eq flexibility --prefer not to mess with that myself; more. . . ). I had a digital engineer friend set up a computer audio rig to play with when he was a roommate of mine some three years or more back. I can honestly say I got better sound from my discs and didn't get into the setup and methodology. But I know it's captivated many and that's great.

And I'm not into the tech. In my state career the worst part of it was the computer work and also the crappy IT support we had that didn't add pleasure or enjoyment of any kind to the experience from their arrogant and weird behaviors. I view computers as "work" and not at all "fun" and I prefer to leave my music out of computers. But we're all different. . .and with different experiences which shape our likes and dislikes.

We're all different. I'm with you Mark: let me put a disc in my hands and into or onto a machine and I'm happier.

I'd suggest you to take computers out of it.  

Imagine you took your TT over to a friends house and there was one aspect of the sound that you didn't like.  Maybe you just bought a new cartridge, put a new tone arm on it or rewired your tone arm, etc.  You spent a lot of time at it and wanted it to sound good but it didn't.

You'd wonder what was off and try to troubleshoot it.  The computer just has a different set of parameters.

Thanks for everyone's input.  All good things to consider.  I am going to take Raven's advice and dial down the OCD behavior.  It's still the best sound of my life and I am lucky to have it.

Yes, I wasn't putting computers into it.

I wonder. . . is there another type of bearing you can use in place of those you have. . . glass, ceramic, aluminum, brass.

I say this because I was using Barry Diamant's recipe bearing roller cups under my speakers and used stainless steel bearings and the sound was. . . steely. Had a glare to the high frequencies. I replaced these bearings with "lampblack" balls from Herbie's Audio Lab and the sound was more natural.* I'm not sure what you are using, but I have about a dozen of these I think and acrylic ones also that I could mali so you could try if the size works in your set up. . . .

It absolutely didn't make sense to me that the materials used in these applications would have a sonic signature. . .but I have found they did.


*I then went to Ingress Audio RollerBlocks for my speakers and they work wonderfully. . . .

I think Mark's point is that looking at all the different players and settings and configurations of Mac and PC as music source. . . he'd rather just have a disc in hand and put it into play. You have to admit, there's far more to setting up a computer audio system or network than installing a CDP or universal player or even turntable into your system. I'm trying to play around with my system less (with not a lot of success). I think Mark plays around with his less than I do and I can learn from that.

Yes, I know what the "inventor" said, I read that thread and experimented with it several years ago. I found that the bearing material made a difference; I was using 1" chrome bearings, I had also used 1/2" and 3/4" and 1" gave my speakers the best "height"--had the same signature with all the chrome ones, and a different signature with the lampblack. So not for the first time I had a different finding than another listener/experimenter.

Just a thought I had in your instance. If you had the same issue without the isolation and the system had warmed up enough than the bulk of the problem probably isn't in the isolation.

Do you have the same problem sound with MultiWave and without?

Hmmmm warmed up?  It definitely wasn't warmed up.  I did try to keep all that gear in the car, but it sat while we ate brats and then sat in the cold garage until I put it together.

Also, I am currently not using multi-wave.

Archie, I will send an PM on the springs.  I am just working the original formula and once I think I have that fully explored, I will look to other options.

Ok, I figured it out and it was embarrassingly simple.

My big mistake in trying to solve the problem was I had been linking the sound I got before and after I went to the CDaPs get together with the bad sound I got at the get together.  

But the more I listened, the more I felt that it was not the same problem. At the meeting it was more ragged sound on the highly enunciated notes while at home, those notes still a little piercing, but it was more of an overall hardness to the sound.  

So I basically set aside trying to solve for what happened at the meeting and started to look exclusively at my home situation.  

Thanks to Will’s timeline a few posts back, I was able to see that I had documented being pretty happy with the sound until February 10th.  The only change after that was the isolation tests I had been running.  I went back to the designer and ran though my implementation of his design and he felt it was the correct implementation.  He also said he had never heard bad sound from a correct implementation so he encouraged me to look at my source.

Aside from being warmed up better, the mac mini and the DAC were exactly the same as at the meeting, so I looked to the amp.  I also just happened to read Steve’s notes on the Torii MK V talking about the earlier versions of the Torii and the bass and treble controls.  This lead me to adjust the treble control down less than 1/8 a turn.

And there she was again.  That smooth detailed sound I first got when I installed the LPSU.  

Now do I agree with Steve that I lose some transparency in the process?  I do.  I am experimenting by turning it up a hair each time until I get to the problem zone and then back it off.  I hope to regain a little transparency in the process.

Should I blame the isolation methodology?  Maybe.  Perhaps a different methodology would allow me to up the treble a little more and gain some more transparency.  But then you get into at what cost, lots of trial and error, etc.  I’m not saying I won’t do it, but I won’t be chucking lots of money at it.  There have been some reasonable solutions posed here by members of the forum that I may check out.

While embarrassing, keep in mind I have only had the Torii for 2 ½ months.  I am used to the relatively closed system that is my Rachael.

BTW, I just asked for a bid from Norm, my metalshop guy on 18 aluminum pucks that resemble ½ of a Rollerblock.  You basically show up on Saturday with cash and he’ll do what you ask.  If it comes back reasonable and somebody wants to try it, I could have him make more.