Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Decware Audio Forums
03/29/24 at 06:45:53 




Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
Mac Mini LPSU Test (Read 53831 times)
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2474
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #50 - 02/09/15 at 14:15:51
 
Will, I like the holistic approach.  It was interesting that when I finally ran a quasi-dedicated line into the room, I had to re-think everything.  If I had to do it over again...

I would consider the TeraDak LPSU to be the most basic LPSU that gets the job done.  It does consist of the two components that the higher end companies provide - the internal filter and the external LPSU.  Some offer no internal filtering, just a hard wire to the logic board.  I haven't ever seen the guts of anyone's internal filter implementation, but my guess is TeraDak is on par with what else is out there.  I think it is rows of capacitors to smooth out the power.  I think where the difference is in in the external LPSU, where the higher end guys seem to have a more sophisticated approach.  I don't know much, but their boxes seem to be a lot more crowded.

In terms of going ahead with the gamble, think of it this way, I have a dedicated line, power regen, decent power cords and a decent dac.  The lift I got was on the order of 15-20%.   Pulling that SMPS can't make your power situation worse.  Different yes, but worse?
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
****


Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 3567
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #51 - 02/09/15 at 15:03:14
 

Sorry to step all over your thread again, but I wanted to update on the sub-topic I brought up.

From what I can understand of Ted's information, I feel there are two points of "noise". The electrical noise that gets carried over the copper, which as I mentioned the fiber would resolve, but then of course there is jitter. I didn't realize how closely tied they were. The same noise being thrown about inside your house, PC, gear, etc, will also induce jitter. So my idea of using fiber optic would only address part of the issue...as Ted has shown with the DS, jitter mitigation is hugely important.

Also, I've been told that some really fine gear out there (way above our pay grades) has used AT&T glass fiber to address some of these issues. So I guess I was on the right track with my thinking after all.

I don't fully understand jitter, and apparently audio in general doesn't appear to understand jitter the way aerospace and communications do. Audiophiles seem to sweep it under the rug with "you can't hear it below XXX amount" or "that's why I still listen to vinyl".

Seeing as how digital appears to be having another renaissance with high-def and especially streaming making waves, I have a feeling we'll see more audiophile brands look into fiber and jitter reduction in the future. Especially if guys like us keep asking these questions.

Also, one other note that's more on topic - Paul and Ted have mentioned that L-PSU can throw noise back into the A/C systems, that Linear isn't always the right choice, and switching might actually be better. Beyond that it was a bit vague. I know my L-PSU originally caused more issues than it solved till I did some tweaks on it. I'm not an EE, so I don't have the skills to design one from scratch...but with both PS Audio and Decware repeatedly showing us how important the power supply is, I feel more than ever it's a key place to start with any build.
Back to top
 
 
WWW Lonely Raven   IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2474
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #52 - 02/09/15 at 23:13:25
 
I think this thread has pretty much run its course anyway.  I tried it, it worked very well.  Maybe someone else will give it a try.

I found these claims on the Core Audio site and agree with most:

•More Organic character (yes)
•Higher resolution, blacker background (yes)
•More Immersive, bigger sound (more immersive yes)
•Larger, more holographic sound stage (not bigger, somewhat more holographic)
•Better musical flow, pacing, and energy (Yes)
•Zero listening fatigue - (very little fatigue)
•A Mac-Based Music Server that outperforms most, if not all, PC-based music servers (dunno on this one)
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2474
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #53 - 02/10/15 at 00:58:57
 
Are these suggestions now that I might actually be
Able to hear them?
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. Dick

Posts: 23310
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #54 - 02/10/15 at 01:03:42
 
No, sorry just somehow ended up in the wrong thread. But I can recommend them, great music and sound.

Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2474
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #55 - 02/10/15 at 01:17:25
 
Always interested in good music!

The tech thing is certainly not for everyone.  I know enough to be dangerous and enjoy the challenge.  I built my first digital video editing workstation for my wife's business about 20 years ago and can't stop fiddling with Macs.
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. Dick

Posts: 23310
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #56 - 02/10/15 at 01:30:23
 
I know that as much as I fiddle with my stereo it is best for me to not fiddle with a computer for audio as well! Especially as I'll be living with a fiancee soon and she's less interested in computers than I am and less interested in audio than I am and I'll be seeking special time for music again as I used to before I lost my wife. Sigh. But these lovely women are worth it.

But even if I had the time I like having music and computers separate. Just have never liked mixing them casually and can't imagine mixing them seriously. I like the discs. . . it's closer to making music than computer audio is, and making music is something I wish I could do more of.
(And oddly I may be able to expand my music playing--Lucinda would rather listen to me play than my recordings, and I've already permission to set guitar and bass instruments and amps upstairs and downstairs, and I will probably be able to work in a drum kit which is great because there are so few neighbors and they're spaced out!)

That Rubenstein and the Harnoy (listening to those now) are discs I probably wouldn't have enjoyed much at all a few years ago but really dig now! And its in part because of the sound quality I can reproduce them, unamplified instruments sounds so lovely when everything is dialed in, so real and right.
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2474
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #57 - 02/10/15 at 02:36:05
 
It's funny we mess with all this digital technology to try to produce sound that's as engaging as technology developed decades ago.

I'm ok with digital files instead of disks but don't know how well I will take to streaming becomes mainstream.

Btw I am listening to the turntable now to see how close I am getting with the mini.
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. Dick

Posts: 23310
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #58 - 02/10/15 at 02:55:44
 
That's a meaningful comparison. I just got 25 records in the mail. Smiley The ZP3 is the source to beat.
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2474
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #59 - 02/10/15 at 03:05:37
 
I won't really know till I hear a good turntable rig.  Maybe this weekend.  Not a zp3 but at least not a piece of junk either.
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2914
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #60 - 02/10/15 at 07:01:59
 
I gave up on vinyl in the eighties, and I had a decent turntable and loads of LPs. I just got over ticks and pops (often on new records) and limited dynamics, except of 45 rpm LPs, and I just wasn't going to go there. Digital had its drawbacks to be sure, but ah well. And if I recall, my first Nakamichi CD player sounded relatively analog (real) with no tics or pops and with great dynamics.

I had already learned to have affection for Macs with years of design work and other cool things, so I never disliked computers...the opposite actually. With the Mini set up well, I got better sound by a fair bit than from a Rega Apollo or heavily modded Oppo I was using. I don't care what others use, but I really appreciate the convenience of playlists, EQ and other settings so easily done, being able to easily back up everything and keep it in another building, and so on. Whatever gets us what we need, right?

But to the LPSU...palomino said:

"In terms of going ahead with the gamble, think of it this way, I have a dedicated line, power regen, decent power cords and a decent dac.  The lift I got was on the order of 15-20%.   Pulling that SMPS can't make your power situation worse.  Different yes, but worse?"

Thanks for the thoughtful feedback. 15-20% is something I can't imagine, but I am willing to try Wink I will let you know my thoughts once I get one in!
Back to top
 
 

All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. Dick

Posts: 23310
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #61 - 02/10/15 at 11:50:17
 
I gave up on vinyl in the 'eighties too, the usual components were pretty blah then, and I confess I would be less interested in vinyl if it weren't for the ZP3. I really don't feel I lose dynamics with vinyl, and I also gain a vividness and realness that I can't say cd doesn't have, but it's of a different nature. And due to the mastering of the music itself there are whole sections of the music I love, early twentieth century music, that sound better on vinyl than on cd. So I'm so glad that I have a good turntable and the ZP3, and I know the ZP3 is such a great phono preamp that I could spend twice as much on a turntable and still reap benefits.

I love them both but with the ZP3 vinyl has fewer compromises than ever and shines brightly.
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2474
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #62 - 02/10/15 at 12:29:50
 
I would guess you won't see that big a change Will based on your description of what you are already getting.  It has been a game changer for me - just below room treatments in terms of impact.

I know on other forums some brave soul does the mod or buys the equipment then they ship the unit around and everybody weighs in.  I don't see that happening but I do open my home to anyone wanting to hear a decware amp.  This weekend we are having another get together and if I get ambitious Ill take the mini rig.  It would be going head to head with a good vinyl rig in a dedicated listening room.

With my "vintage" turntable going last night I was able to make some comparisons to the modded mini.  Very different beasts but the common thread was the organic nature of the sound.  It made me feel I'm headed in the right direction.
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2914
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #63 - 02/10/15 at 15:36:03
 
Lon, Yes, the more-less endless resolution of vinyl is really amazing if you can get it happening. And I don't doubt the ZP3 makes a serious mark. Judging from Steve's other amps I bet gives a dynamic, open lucidity that is really enlivening.

Palomino. Sounds really good! I look forward to future impressions.
Back to top
 
 

All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2474
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #64 - 02/17/15 at 17:47:44
 
Well, I did put the Mac Mini/Chord Qute up against a good turntable system (see the CDaPs thread).

As I mentioned in that thread, the digital had more in the way of dynamics, but on vocals and certain instruments, the turntable was a lot smoother.

This was very troubling to me, because even prior to the trip to tlarwa's, I was feeling that I had introduced some harshness which simply was not there initially when I installed the LPSU.

The two tracks which were eye opening were Nora Jones "Don't Know Why" and Miles Davis "Summertime."  Both Nora's voice and Miles' trumpet had a distinct digital edge to them.  

So I started retracing my steps to try to figure out what I did.  I think I have it somewhat figured out.

I transferred all my music to an external firewire 400 drive - which uses a SMPS.  I previously had music scattered over both the internal disk drive and the external firewire drive.  After I installed the external SSD, I transferred everything to the external drive.

So I put the SMPS for the drive on another circuit and it helped.  I then set it up on a 12v battery and it helped more.  There is still something else going on because there is still a bit of an edge.  Keep in mind that I have also been experimenting with isolation which has sharpened things up a lot.

I am still getting good sound and happy I did the LPSU upgrade, but something I did has taken away the ultra smooth detail I first got.  I would have to think that by now I am through the break-in period on both the internal filter and the external power supply.

I did install a fan program which I will disable once I fix the fan sensor connection I broke while installing the internal filter.  I do have a monitor connected to the mini via thunderbolt.  I'll see what removing that does.

If anybody has an insights I am open to suggestions.
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2914
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #65 - 02/17/15 at 22:14:54
 
What is CDaPs?

If I recall correctly, isn't the process/medium induced compression of tape and vinyl a "flaw" removed with digital.....but "flaw" or friend?.... aside from high resolution, a product is musically pleasant smoothing. Roughly 50 Db seems pretty good dynamic range for LPs compared to possibly 90 for a CD...and zero stylus-groove sound.... I guess the clean and perhaps brutally complete nature of digital recordings, things tape and vinyl smoothed by nature, this is something we can't seem to definitively solve, though we are close with some sources.

And generally, most of us are seduced by the clean, revealing possibilities of digital, but struggle with colder/harder aspects we haven't completely sorted, calling it “digital,” like digital is a name for the devil.

I just put up the preset compressor on "light" in my player software, and things did smooth out, especially noticeable in those higher areas we might call "digital glare."  I did not like it better, because I like refined detail and dynamics, but it did do some smoothing.

For me, I guess it goes back to the need to make whatever sound we have better and quit the comparisons of analog versus digital. Neither are innately perfect representations of real music, but we can work to get either to sound more real to us. The “debate” as to which is better is probably a contributor the difficulties that remain in making digital sound like real music.

We looked some at this earlier, but noise reduction, like digital cleanliness...both are double edged. Some of the "right" noise can be pretty "musical" and "smoothing." Also, when we take noise out, we might reveal sound imbalances we were less aware of. Or, the way we remove noise, that tool's signature, may not be friendly in our system...like the P5 was not friendly for me.

What are our tools to smooth, warm..... Pretty much everything can take it one way or the other...source, tubes, any cable, isolation materials, the particular power treatments we use......

But since you gained smoothness with the LSPU, and lost smoothness since, looking at what changed since the LPSU makes sense. And you did have "ultra smooth detail" with the firewire drive in place and the fan circuit broken, right?

By introducing vibration reduction, your bass was cleaned up, sounding quieter, and presumably the rest of the ranges improved also. Bass and midrange muddle in the right proportions can cause a pleasant warming effect.

It is possible that one or more materials have upset the balance...the steel balls, what they sit in, and perhaps the ply??? Different materials have different sound even when isolation is pretty good, and perhaps in part you are experiencing resonance imbalances. With known quantities, like Herbie's balls, different balls are actually useful tuning tools. It even seems possible that some resonances are being enhanced, at least within the relative balance of reduced vibration noise overall. And what is that between the Torii and the steel balls?

Steve at Herbie's has done loads of research to find ball material, and other foot materials that are neutral while effectively isolating. Not that he has necessarily mastered this in all cases, but it has been a primary objective, indicating the importance.

That you used the term "sharpened things up a lot" to describe the effect of isolation may be telling.

But even if your isolation were relatively balanced, or at least not enhancing this "digital" quality, by virtue of getting rid of vibration born noise, lowering the total noise floor, this would expose more of what you have in your system. So any flaws may become more apparent...like perhaps EMF noise introduced to your gear from the LSPU. And since nothing is in isolation, this cleaner slate may expose a power cord, IC or Speaker cable that was pretty right, but may not be best now, even in the position it is in. Or a tube...even if things are evenly better from noise reduction, weaknesses that were not obvious may come out.

You have also changed to 6922s, tubes that tend to be more rigid. They often make the mids to highs harder, especially in a MKIII.
Back to top
 
 

All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2474
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #66 - 02/17/15 at 22:31:06
 
CDaPs stands for Chicago Decware APpreciation Society.  A bit of a running gag, but we do have three members now!

The "digital" sound was heard both with and without the isolation.  I was trying to figure out if it was a function of the isolation, then took it to one member of the "society's" house and heard it without any isolation.

I hear ya on getting sound you like and not worrying so much about how.  Unfortunately I had what I liked and screwed something up.  My issue is I don't recall exactly what happened prior to losing the sound I liked.

I did introduce the firewire drive after I did the LPSU upgrade.  I left the fan running for some time too before downloading the fan program.  Somewhere in there I tweaked Audirvana.  So my LPSU test was not very scientific.  Too many variables changed.

I am going to try some other things tonight.  I have a couple of input tubes to try.  For some reason I had a memory of the 6922 being less dynamic.  I may also seek out another version of Nora Jones song.  I have noticed that it is not as big a deal at lower volumes.

Anyway, I am just guessing now...
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2914
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #67 - 02/18/15 at 00:13:16
 
Well that is several new pieces of information!

Here are bits from this thread progression...hopefully might help isolate the problem.

2/5

"Things have really smoothed out.  Just enjoying the music without nagging questions about should I do this or that.  I hope this lasts a few days at least  ;D
.....
I haven't listened that much to good analogue so I can't really compare it to that, but this is the best digital I have heard in terms of being organic and easy to listen to.  

2/6

"I put the SSD in last night.
...
I'm struggling for the words, but the soundstage improved.  It didn't get wider or taller.  The only word I can find is it got denser, more full.  The details is still there, but its a fuller presentation.  The instruments are more together, but meld well into a denser, more complex soundstage.

I have never had a high end CDP or turntable, so I don't have a very good feel for what they sound like, but this is a liquidy smooth and blissful presentation.  Very enjoyable.  It does remind me of the feeling of real "music" I got when tlarwa brought his turntable over.

2/7 El Caminos.

"with the LPSU in place on the mini (and all music files now on the firewire external drive) that wakeup point is significantly lower - like 20db!  They really sound good at only 60db.  Bass is there, soundstage is there.  Very nice.  Definitely the best I have heard these speakers."

2/9

"In terms of going ahead with the gamble, think of it this way, I have a dedicated line, power regen, decent power cords and a decent dac.  The lift I got was on the order of 15-20%."

Later 2/9

"I found these claims on the Core Audio site and agree with most:

•More Organic character (yes)
•Higher resolution, blacker background (yes)
•More Immersive, bigger sound (more immersive yes)
•Larger, more holographic sound stage (not bigger, somewhat more holographic)
•Better musical flow, pacing, and energy (Yes)
•Zero listening fatigue - (very little fatigue)
•A Mac-Based Music Server that outperforms most, if not all, PC-based music servers (dunno on this one)"

2/10

"It has been a game changer for me - just below room treatments in terms of impact.
......
With my "vintage" turntable going last night I was able to make some comparisons to the modded mini.  Very different beasts but the common thread was the organic nature of the sound.  It made me feel I'm headed in the right direction."

End Palomino quotes

Seems by the 10th you had not noticed this issue or it did not exist.
Back to top
 
 

All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
  IP Logged
will
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2914
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #68 - 02/18/15 at 01:12:14
 
Quote:
For some reason I had a memory of the 6922 being less dynamic.


I don't think so...
Back to top
 
 

All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2474
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #69 - 02/18/15 at 01:24:06
 
Well I do remember wanting to figure it out prior to hauling my gear to the meet.  The only change between the 10th and the get together was isolation but there was no isolation at Toms place.

I'm at a loss.

It doesn't seem bad after the adjustments I have made but it was definitely there at the get together.  After the track played I said "that was harsh" or something like that and Eric and Tom seemed relieved that I said it so they didn't have to.  They did agree though.

Don't get me wrong my system is far from unlistenable but I remember testing the shrill tracks and thinking they were a lot more tolerable.  That Nora Jones track was one I tested.

Help me out Raven.  Am I chasing windmills?
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Lonely Raven
Seasoned Member
****


Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 3567
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #70 - 02/18/15 at 05:03:19
 

Quote:
CDaPs stands for Chicago Decware APpreciation Society.  A bit of a running gag, but we do have three members now!


Except our third member doesn't even own any Decware! He should at least pick up a token cable or something.  :P

Quote:
Help me out Raven.  Am I chasing windmills?


The nice thing about chasing windmills is that if you stand still, they'll come to you.

Take a break - step away from the nuclear weapon - and come back to it fresh. Or do like I did and muck it all up to the point you have to start over.   Wink

Maybe I can loan you one of my Min-PCs and playing with something other than your Mac will help you come back to the Mac Mini with a fresh mind.

I still need to polish this turd that is my new PC. So I need to follow my own guidance and take a break before I shoot something and sell it up on eBay for $72.
Back to top
 
 
WWW Lonely Raven   IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2474
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #71 - 02/18/15 at 11:45:24
 
You're right.  I need a little fresh air.
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. Dick

Posts: 23310
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #72 - 02/18/15 at 11:58:23
 
It's hard to make a judgment about the sound in Tom's room, different room, and imo digital gear takes about 24 hours or more to be warmed up after being unplugged.

Do you think it's possible that the isolation is revealing a sonic charater (cables, source, ??) previously masked? Does the signature differ with multi-wave on or off on the PPP? (I found multi-wave on the PPP to add both bass body and a peak or edginess to treble in my system).

It's also possible that the isolation material (plywood, bearings) are imparting a signature. . . .
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
  IP Logged
mark58
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 5647
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #73 - 02/18/15 at 12:43:27
 
The comments here about computer playback, have reinforced why I own media that I can hold in my hands and play by dropping a needle or pushing a button.  There's too much in life I'm frustrated by to add one more...hehe.  Mark.

PS...I can already hear Lon shouting Amen...+1
Back to top
 
 

"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. Dick

Posts: 23310
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #74 - 02/18/15 at 12:52:30
 
Well, I'm certain there are many benefits to computer audio that mean a lot to others (convenience ---not a big factor for me; eq flexibility --prefer not to mess with that myself; more. . . ). I had a digital engineer friend set up a computer audio rig to play with when he was a roommate of mine some three years or more back. I can honestly say I got better sound from my discs and didn't get into the setup and methodology. But I know it's captivated many and that's great.

And I'm not into the tech. In my state career the worst part of it was the computer work and also the crappy IT support we had that didn't add pleasure or enjoyment of any kind to the experience from their arrogant and weird behaviors. I view computers as "work" and not at all "fun" and I prefer to leave my music out of computers. But we're all different. . .and with different experiences which shape our likes and dislikes.

We're all different. I'm with you Mark: let me put a disc in my hands and into or onto a machine and I'm happier.
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
  IP Logged
Syd
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1534
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #75 - 02/18/15 at 13:33:46
 
I had a thought yesterday when I read Will`s post

And generally, most of us are seduced by the clean, revealing possibilities of digital, but struggle with colder/harder aspects we haven't completely sorted, calling it “digital,” like digital is a name for the devil.
I just put up the preset compressor on "light" in my player software, and things did smooth out, especially noticeable in those higher areas we might call "digital glare."  I did not like it better, because I like refined detail and dynamics, but it did do some smoothing.


I went into daydream mode where Ted of PS liscenced the rights to simulate the `sound` of top flight cartridges old and new by using some kind of DSP chip as used by pro guitarists to alter tone properly without added noise. I  could then see a drop down menu with a number of fav carts, Crown/Ampeg tape hiss, levels of surface noise, Nakamichi Dragon.

Now I know I dont do all the clever stuff you lads get up to but I`m behind you in the outcome and dont really think you`re interested in `analogue` repro. Just music in (studio) and music out.
Pal, maybe you have some parameters you can tweak.

Ps. Ted if you read this and get ideas you can reach me here to discuss intelectual property righs.  :)
Back to top
 
 

Decware: Rachaels x 2 bridged, C. SP2+, ZP3, ZMC1, DHC-1 pw/cbl`s Michell Orbe + SME V + M.Benz LP s, Arcam CD33, Nakamichi LX5, Lowther acoustas DX2`s, WE 16g sp/cbl`s, Isotek mains substation, M & K subwoofer, Belden 8402 interconnects.
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2474
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #76 - 02/18/15 at 14:14:48
 
I'd suggest you to take computers out of it.  

Imagine you took your TT over to a friends house and there was one aspect of the sound that you didn't like.  Maybe you just bought a new cartridge, put a new tone arm on it or rewired your tone arm, etc.  You spent a lot of time at it and wanted it to sound good but it didn't.

You'd wonder what was off and try to troubleshoot it.  The computer just has a different set of parameters.

Thanks for everyone's input.  All good things to consider.  I am going to take Raven's advice and dial down the OCD behavior.  It's still the best sound of my life and I am lucky to have it.
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Syd
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 1534
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #77 - 02/18/15 at 15:59:31
 
How right you are Palomino. My Rega arm rewire worked but the sound wasn`t good. Two parameters, fixed pivot V uni pivot and not waiting for burn in time.
Last week I went to fire it up again and one channel down.
A wire had come off at the stopper end where the 5 pins are.
I wrecked the pins pulling it out.
Currently sitting on my backside doing nothing about it.
Just need a new 5 pin stopper.
Ok, I`ll order a new one now.
On the bright side you know you have all the pieces of the jig-saw.
Back to top
 
 

Decware: Rachaels x 2 bridged, C. SP2+, ZP3, ZMC1, DHC-1 pw/cbl`s Michell Orbe + SME V + M.Benz LP s, Arcam CD33, Nakamichi LX5, Lowther acoustas DX2`s, WE 16g sp/cbl`s, Isotek mains substation, M & K subwoofer, Belden 8402 interconnects.
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. Dick

Posts: 23310
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #78 - 02/18/15 at 16:08:24
 
Yes, I wasn't putting computers into it.

I wonder. . . is there another type of bearing you can use in place of those you have. . . glass, ceramic, aluminum, brass.

I say this because I was using Barry Diamant's recipe bearing roller cups under my speakers and used stainless steel bearings and the sound was. . . steely. Had a glare to the high frequencies. I replaced these bearings with "lampblack" balls from Herbie's Audio Lab and the sound was more natural.* I'm not sure what you are using, but I have about a dozen of these I think and acrylic ones also that I could mali so you could try if the size works in your set up. . . .

It absolutely didn't make sense to me that the materials used in these applications would have a sonic signature. . .but I have found they did.


*I then went to Ingress Audio RollerBlocks for my speakers and they work wonderfully. . . .
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2474
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #79 - 02/18/15 at 16:11:12
 
I think some pieces of gear have fewer parameters - and the parameters are more well documented.

Computer digital audio has been around for a relatively short period of time so we are still figuring out what the parameters are.  That I will concede to the more established technologies and for that reason, I can see the desire to keep things to the known.
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. Dick

Posts: 23310
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #80 - 02/18/15 at 16:24:02
 
I think Mark's point is that looking at all the different players and settings and configurations of Mac and PC as music source. . . he'd rather just have a disc in hand and put it into play. You have to admit, there's far more to setting up a computer audio system or network than installing a CDP or universal player or even turntable into your system. I'm trying to play around with my system less (with not a lot of success). I think Mark plays around with his less than I do and I can learn from that. Smiley
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2474
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #81 - 02/18/15 at 16:28:06
 
I am using chrome 1/2" ball bearings.  The inventor recommends these, but does suggest something else, but I think that type of bearing (can't recall) was expensive.  He goes on to reiterate about a dozen times that done according to his recipe, you won't get bad sound.  He looks more to the tile and/or the "cup" as the culprit if you are.

I think the isolation is working as intended.  I heard the offensive sounds without the isolation.  It needs some tweaking, but its good.  I still think my issue lies within the mac mini or things connected to it.

I am going to live with these for awhile, but thank you for your offer Lon.
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. Dick

Posts: 23310
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #82 - 02/18/15 at 16:38:39
 
Yes, I know what the "inventor" said, I read that thread and experimented with it several years ago. I found that the bearing material made a difference; I was using 1" chrome bearings, I had also used 1/2" and 3/4" and 1" gave my speakers the best "height"--had the same signature with all the chrome ones, and a different signature with the lampblack. So not for the first time I had a different finding than another listener/experimenter.

Just a thought I had in your instance. If you had the same issue without the isolation and the system had warmed up enough than the bulk of the problem probably isn't in the isolation.

Do you have the same problem sound with MultiWave and without?
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
  IP Logged
Archie
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2731
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #83 - 02/18/15 at 17:07:57
 
I can see where changing the bearing could impact the sound since these types of roller devices do not isolate in the vertical and might be subject to slight friction in the horizontal.

I recently changed the springs in my HR-1 platforms to increase the gap and give more horizontal isolation (based on how a spring isolates in three axes).  I like the idea of bounding the problem by having the option of total coupling (spikes maybe?) and total isolation so that if an in between solution is preferred, it can be approached with a little more predictability.  I agree that too many variables tends to create somewhat random results.
Back to top
 
 

ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2474
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #84 - 02/18/15 at 19:00:39
 
Hmmmm warmed up?  It definitely wasn't warmed up.  I did try to keep all that gear in the car, but it sat while we ate brats and then sat in the cold garage until I put it together.

Also, I am currently not using multi-wave.

Archie, I will send an PM on the springs.  I am just working the original formula and once I think I have that fully explored, I will look to other options.
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. Dick

Posts: 23310
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #85 - 02/18/15 at 19:04:47
 
Well, cold gear in my experience tends to be a bit dark and slow, so that may be why it sounded differently? For me that would not rule out isolation effect.

Yes, I find the MultiWave in the PPP to just not quite be right. I like MultiWave at the 1 setting on the P5, though not any higher, but the PPP MultiWave is like a 4 (out of 6) on the P5.

Okay, I'll bow out of the thread now. Relax, enjoy the music as much as you can.
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
  IP Logged
Palomino
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 2474
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #86 - 02/20/15 at 14:22:36
 
Ok, I figured it out and it was embarrassingly simple.

My big mistake in trying to solve the problem was I had been linking the sound I got before and after I went to the CDaPs get together with the bad sound I got at the get together.  

But the more I listened, the more I felt that it was not the same problem. At the meeting it was more ragged sound on the highly enunciated notes while at home, those notes still a little piercing, but it was more of an overall hardness to the sound.  

So I basically set aside trying to solve for what happened at the meeting and started to look exclusively at my home situation.  

Thanks to Will’s timeline a few posts back, I was able to see that I had documented being pretty happy with the sound until February 10th.  The only change after that was the isolation tests I had been running.  I went back to the designer and ran though my implementation of his design and he felt it was the correct implementation.  He also said he had never heard bad sound from a correct implementation so he encouraged me to look at my source.

Aside from being warmed up better, the mac mini and the DAC were exactly the same as at the meeting, so I looked to the amp.  I also just happened to read Steve’s notes on the Torii MK V talking about the earlier versions of the Torii and the bass and treble controls.  This lead me to adjust the treble control down less than 1/8 a turn.

And there she was again.  That smooth detailed sound I first got when I installed the LPSU.  

Now do I agree with Steve that I lose some transparency in the process?  I do.  I am experimenting by turning it up a hair each time until I get to the problem zone and then back it off.  I hope to regain a little transparency in the process.

Should I blame the isolation methodology?  Maybe.  Perhaps a different methodology would allow me to up the treble a little more and gain some more transparency.  But then you get into at what cost, lots of trial and error, etc.  I’m not saying I won’t do it, but I won’t be chucking lots of money at it.  There have been some reasonable solutions posed here by members of the forum that I may check out.

While embarrassing, keep in mind I have only had the Torii for 2 ½ months.  I am used to the relatively closed system that is my Rachael.

BTW, I just asked for a bid from Norm, my metalshop guy on 18 aluminum pucks that resemble ½ of a Rollerblock.  You basically show up on Saturday with cash and he’ll do what you ask.  If it comes back reasonable and somebody wants to try it, I could have him make more.
Back to top
 
 

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
  IP Logged
Lon
Seasoned Member
****


"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. Dick

Posts: 23310
Re: Mac Mini LPSU Test
Reply #87 - 02/20/15 at 14:34:35
 
So glad you are getting great sound again. I have my treble controls turned a quarter of a turn or so from zero, so I know what you mean. I honestly don't personally feel I lose a lot of "transparency." (I think cabling differences may be at play, I'm less impressed with the Decware ICs than Steve is). I do lose a lot of treble energy that unsettles me from relaxed listening! Those controls on the Mk III are awesome, essential for my listening ease.

Having moved from the type of isolation that you are using to different types I know that there are subtle to not-quite-so subtle changes to the tonal balance and spatial information that you can achieve. In my case the PS Audio PowerBase has been perfect with my rack, and Iso-Cups or Iso-Pods (old style from VooDoo Cable) are the fine tuning instruments. I KNOW these are expensive options. And I'm blessed to be able to have them and enjoy them. I'm glad you are having some pieces made and am looking forward to your impressions.
Back to top
 
 

HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
  IP Logged
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print