Good story Lon, and maybe a pointer to the DNA of careful listening?

You're a good son for moving to help your parents with accelerated living. It's a whole lot better than leaving it to The Avenging [Visiting] Angels and Life Alert.

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I agree Lon. Sounds like you have a great start. I don't know what my parents had in their console stereo, but I recall a lot of tubes and loving to listen to it! Have fun!

Okay a report back. Received the Marantz AV-560 audio/video processor/peramp tuner and it was in pristine shape, all material in the original box. Hardly used or very delicately used, this was a great processor in its early days close to twenty years ago and at less than a tenth its original sticker price a good deal.

I hooked it up to the Denon carousel, the Pyle turntable and phono preamp, and then routed it to the Eddie Vaughn-modded Decware C amp that I bought recently when my Torii Mk III was in Peoria for an upgrade. Things have been spinning for a while and I must say. . .NICE.

The biggest diference that I noticed between this and the Sony receiver is dynamic contrast. The span from the softest passage to the loudest is more than subtly wider. My father also noticed this right off--with the right recording a very dynamic presentation is there to enjoy.

The built in DAC is better than that in the Denon cd carousel by a noticeable margin. More instrumental separation, more clarity, more detail. And a bit less of an edge to the higher frequencies, and a bit tighter bass.  I'm using a Creative Audio Concepts "Black Knight" coaxial cable and may later try an Amphenol glass optical cable I have on hand.

The turntable and phono preamp also sound improved. The presentation is more dynamic and the tonality is mellower than that through the Sony receiver line stage.

The radio turner is perhaps the same overall in sonic presentation or perhaps a bit improved. I haven't listened as closely yet.

This time my parents sat on the couch and watched me make the exchange of components and connect the new ones, so it was not an "unseen" change. Still, I think they genuinely feel there's an improvement. My Dad noticed the dynamic contrast improvement very quickly, and he said that cds sounded "deeper." My Mom didn't make a lot of specific comments but she did ask me more often than before about the music, "What instrument is that?" "Would you say that music really swings? Sounds like swing music!" Several times she said '"I really like that, this sounds good."

I think the Decware amp and Marantz processor are bringing out more information from the sources and letting the excellent Electro Voice full range speakers shine with their excellence. I'll probably do a bit of tweaking over the next weeks but I am going to be enjoying the music more here, which is good as I get to spend so little time listening to my own system(s) of late.

Well,

Dad has this beautiful old cherry wood stereo cabinet he spent as much as he possibly could on back in '62 and it's perfect for the living room, fits into the perfect spot, looks fantastic (Mother approved indeed). It's eight feet long, speakers are centered six feet apart, and the speakers are '61 alnico magnet full range Electro Voices, just sound wonderful even today. That's got to be the centerpiece of the system, so dictated by the logistics of the room, and by Mom.

So right now it's about as close to a Decware system as it's going to be with this cool little Eddie Vaughn-modded C amp unless I throw a CSP2 and/or a ZBox in between the Marantz tuner/preamp/processor and the C amp. Which I might do in time. But I'm not sure if it will add much, the C amp sounds great with the Electro Voice speakers. It may be that a better source may be the better next step . . . but Dad loves having a carousel and as carousels go this Denon is certainly not the worst.

So I think this is about the most Decware this system will be.

Nah. I don't look around the web at audio stuff. . . drives me a little nuts, I'm happy with what I have and don't need to "educate" myself or tempt myself.

The only thing I really want are some more PS Audio products, PowerBases and AC-12 cords. I have what I really need, but would like about three more of each. But don't want to spend the money right now.

Well, the Marantz AV processor has warmed up nicely and the internal DAC has really improved Redbook sound, and the line stage and tuner section seem more "holographic" than that within the Sony receiver that was the amplification before.

I added Herbie's Audio Lab "Grungebuster" 1.5" dots beneath each of the components, which has helped overrall sound. I'd love to have Tenderfeet instead but don't want to put the money into it right now. The dots get me part of the way there and I had them on hand. I also put the whole cabinet on Herbie's Carpet Spikes which I also had on hand, and that has improved the overall sound a bit.

I knew I was on the right track when I was listening to a recording and a berimbau began playing and seemed to be coming from outside the cabinet and my Mom perked up and said "What was that? Was that on the record?" I think other than Tenderfeet my next step would be to improve speaker cabling and perhaps the interconnects between the Marantz and the C amp. I'm using the 16 guage Monster cable I put in there about 20 years ago for speaker cable, and Audioquest silver interconnects which I had on hand at home, those are great for the money I paid, but there's better out there. But all in good time. I have a great pair of Tara Labs RSC interconnects available, but they aren't flexible enough to use in this instance. And I have a ZBox which may be put into play, but again, that's another pair of interconnects, and another power cord. . . Sigh.

Yesterday I put in a pair of cryo'd Reflector EL84s which need a bit of break-in but have added a sort of "old school" warmth to the sound and I think I'll leave in in place of the 6P15P-EV that came with the amp.

I may replace the Monster Power strip with one of the PS Audio Duets that I took out of the second system at my place when I bought a Dectet last month. THAT will improve the overall sound, and at the moment I have it powering my Jazzmaster Ultralight SE guitar amp  upstairs, which doesn't get as much use as my Bassman TV does.

I ended up putting the EL84s back in the box. Just a bit too polite and smooth after break in, great for some material, but these EV speakers like to be prodded a bit more, and the SV83 variant that came with the amp are better suited.

I took a set of Herbie's Audio Lab Tenderfeet from under the Torii Mk II in my second system and put them under the Marantz AV processor in this system. It always amazes me what just four little blocks do to the sound. Not a huge improvement but a nice sweetening and an added bit of dimensionality. Now I want more for the CD carousel and maybe the amp (though I am not sure they will do much for the amp--it sits inside it's maple case on some Herbie's little Fat Dots and I think what happens after that will be sort of a moot point.)

Okay, possibly the final installment, so bear with me one more time.

Today the ZStage arrived. I decided to use one of the Decware power cords from my second system as I bought a replacement from Mike which will be here soon enough, and also to use the two pairs of MAC "UltraSilver +" interconnects that I had in that system in Dad's system.

I set this up and WOW. This is a substantial improvement in all the "tube aspects" of sound. Haven't had a lot of time to listen, and my parents really haven't heard the new set up yet, but I know it's going to sound great tomorrow and I'm done, I now have a great system here with Decware components inside to listen to, and my folks can really relax into the music now.

Yeah, I'm busy alright. It's sad. I never thought I'd be dressing my Dad and cleaning up after him in certain ways. But then I think: he did that for me.

At least playing around with the stereo there is fun for me and it's interesting to see them noticing the changes and enjoying improved sound. Not that they were skeptics before, they were just. . . agnostic and unknowing about audio stuff.

You're right about the "dirt simple to operate." My Mom has dementia and she could for a while operate a tv with built in DVD player i bought her but now that's beyond her.

I think music DOES help. It allows my Mom something to focus on besides everyone who walks their dog past the living room window. And when she can recognize a melody or hear the words to a song that registers, it's a nice little pleasure for her. Also recorded effects (like say purposedly distorted vocals or sound effects) intrigue her. Dad really does enjoy his "BBM" (Bach, Beethoven and Mozart) and new music challenges him.

It's worth setting something up for your mother-in-law and you're right, no need for audiophile grade stuff.

Discovered that there's a channel imbalance with this ZStage in the "laid back" position which is a shame as that's my preferred spot. I'm certain it's the toggle switch, the weakest point on Decware amps in my experience.

So I've been rolling tubes in the one balanced position and found I had a Mullard military 12AT7 that works best. Have never liked the tube in other applications, but it's great here. I rolled input tubes on the Zen amp as well, really trying hard to like some 6922 and 6DJ8 but coming back to the 6N1p as being the most open, less congested, sweetest treble.

Sounding pretty damned good! I'm going to try not to futz with it any longer.

Well, I spliced an IEC connector onto the Marantz power cord and installed the Shunyata 3S power cord I got from Mike.

The Marantz tended towards a bit of brightness and a very "tight" sound. . . and this cord exacerbated that. I let it roll for a few days but ultimately replaced it with the MAC HC cord I had used previously on the Zen amp in this system. That was a better fit. With either cord the dynamics and sound stage had improved so adding the IEC fitting and a better power cord was a great thing to do to the sound. (The Shunyata 3S makes the Marantz Blu-ray player in my second system at home sound and look fine, a nice fit.)

I also took the Zen amp out of the maple case it was in and put IsoCups directly under the chassis. This was an improvement. The maple case looks wonderful and really dresses the amp up. . . but it muddled the sound somewhat in comparison. So now the amp is shining even more keenly.

Just one more thing I intend to do and that's change the thin Monster Cable speaker cables out for something else. Don't have the something else yet, and it's a big job, so I'm holding off for a while to think of just the right speaker cables. I have some cryo'd Cat-6 on hand. . .but not sure that's the right speaker cable for this application and I want to do this ONCE. . . . Maybe later this month I'll be ready.

Well the California Audio Lab CL-10 was a bust. Not reading discs properly Too bad as this is a beautifully built unit, and the changer transport is the nicest and heaviest duty I've ever seen.

That said the Denon is doing a decent job as a transport and I'm just going to be happy with it. My new CSP2+ is shipping very soon so I'll be putting ye old CSP2 into Dad's system and that should be a joy.

I talked about the CL-10 here somewhere. Yes, it's nice to be spending all this time with my parents. Would be really nice for all of us to be spending less!

Wow, spoiling your parents!  :'(

Cabling is so interesting. I pulled a Decware cord from the system that was feeding my PS Audio Duet before because with the earlier speaker wire I found that an Analysis Plus Pro power cord made the treble sweeter at the expense of a bit of bass. Now with the Styx in place, I put the Decware cord back in between the Duet and the wall and left it warm up over night and now the bass is back, a bit of body is there that wasn't before and the treble is still fine.

Sometimes tube rolling and cable switching drives me nuts, but I have learned how things interact and sometimes you can improve your sound easily using them.

OH Man Lon!  4 1/2 months wait so far for your HR-1s?  I ordered mine on September 19th....which would be Feb. or March 2014 arrival with some luck.  Yesterday I finally unpacked a pair of Zu Audio Soul speakers  and have begun the very painful break in, positioning and tweeking...still not there!  I hooked them up to an old Kenwood SS Amp and I'm beating the piss out of them with high volume Led Zeppelin II over and over again....they must submit!  Mark.  PS...of course I'm not in the room while this torture is occurring.

LR,  I'm not familiar with Megadeath.  The fact that you're 14 years younger than I am may explain this.  I have the  CD Box set of Led Zep's studio work...plenty of speaker abuse in there...  Mark.

I've gone back and forth with output tubes in this hotrod C amp and have decided to stick with cryo'd JJ EL84s. They just have a richness that the system loves, even if they are a little slower.

I should have my new CSP2+ with beeswax caps finally from Decware today and will put my trusty old CSP2 in Dad's system shortly thereafter (though maybe Saturday as all of Friday will be taken up with a very important medical test for Dad).

I imagine that would be a fantastic sounding system when completed!

Lon, you mentioned pulling the MAC HC in favor of a Shunyata cord.  Which one?  Curious because I got several HCs a few months ago, shortly before Steve changed company names and then has since gone silent.  With my desktop speakers, Focal CMS 40, I've been mostly satisfied with the HCs, but wanting to look at other possibilities, especially in terms of tonal balance and warmth. Thanks,

Thanks. I've been wondering whether one of the better lower cost name brand cords would make a difference.  The Focals are powered speakers, each with a pair of 25w AB amps for highs and lows.  I should ask them if the S would cut it.

Yes, I read that, and Shunyata is not alone in this cord distinction.  I can afford Venom 3, but it's the "high current" that's made me wonder. I didn't think powered desktop speakers are high current, especially given that this nearfield setup isn't about loud volumes (sitting 3' from the speakers in a spare bedroom).  The specs show 47k ohm impedance, fuse rating 800mA.  

Thanks!

Interesting response. Some good quality comparisons ahead. Be sure to give these each some time to settle in.

highstream, sorry missed this post before. Good news that the Venoms worked out for you. And you know, not surprised about the Mapleshade component. I too appreciate natural tonality above everything else really, that's the "root."

I've decided the Zen C modded by Eddie Vaughan sounds much better with the cryo'd EL84s, the other tubes just have a touch of that coldness. My second pair of HR-1s are in the "finish curing" stage so that means that soon I'll be able to bring the ERRs over to Dad's system. Really looking forward to that. Hope the C has enough OOOMPH for Dad's room! I think that between the gobs of gain the Marantz and CSP2 have to offer it should be okay.

Interesting. Yes, it' is amazing what power cords do. So many possibilities really.

It's sometimes fun, and sometimes frustrating playing round with them.

The Shunyata Venom 3 PCs were among the most lauded, especially for the money, in a review of 13 cords by Absolute Sound in 2012, which along with their price is why they get so much attention.  In addition, it's important to recognize that how a cord sounds can be system specific.  That said, my priority is on the musical content of recordings, e.g. timbre, including tonal accuracy, rather than how it ‘sounds’ in the more traditional audiophile ‘sonic’ sense.  That puts me in a minority, to which you may or may not belong.  On that score, the Venom 3 has many wonderful qualities but hasn't quite cut it in my systems, although I say that with the caveat about the Maestro outlet (and Porter for my TV system).  Remember, the Venom 3 is relatively cheap as audiophile market power cords go, so one can't expect everything.

A poorly matched power cord can make a great amp or speaker or whatever come out much worse than it should, no less so than an interconnect can.  The main reason for those lengthy burnin discussions is the naysayers; they should be politely told to check things out for themselves and otherwise ignored.  

Beowulf and LR,

I avoid most forums (or threads) because of the less than useful posts we have to wander through to get to thoughtful explanations that give us the what and why...as you say LR, with context. Luckily, there are a few around like this Forum that have somehow tended toward more knowledge enhancing information while avoiding the swinging dick and naysayer effects for the most part...forums who are made up of a lot of folks really looking for the real sound and willing to explore how to get there.

From this context it appears to me that standing behind a certain vendor tends to have merit, but of course, as highstream says...system dependent is sort of vast. This is especially true since room typically has a powerful influence on tonal balance.

So I second your point LR about context. After getting the sense of some forum members preferences over time, it sort of works to hear..."this is a great cable" or whatever, but for me it is always better to get comparisons and tonal value shifts from one to another.

I think this is especially important based upon the reality that one person might prefer a cable for compensating for an overly bright or edgy system/room, another might have a neutral system/room, and another a dark room...at times without even realizing it is happening....how much the environment, power, vibration and so on contribute to the tonal balance and quality.

Then there are a lot of us who no matter what the general character of sound we have arrived at, have very revealing systems that we have been refining to tastes for a long time, and therefore need pretty good information to make a leap here or there.

And then there are those of us who just can't hear the subtler stuff do to some physical thing....and so on and so on.

It is an interesting path!

EDIT: sorry highstream I put this post up before seeing your last one. It is an amazingly fun journey this audio dream!

highstream,

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I am guessing you are onto this, but not knowing your system I will go on. As Lon is illustrating in this thread, with my system explorations, there is no doubt that good power, and then the power and quality of components, vibration and noise isolation in and between components, cable quality, and so on, are all really important. From what I hear, a lot of what this all does is reduce hash, glare and smearing while allowing natural definition and detail across the spectrum without harshness.

I think that especially with most computers, noise is an inherent issue, and some make more noise than others (and inject it into the system). It seems this can manifest in about any way...through AC power, a bad cord, DC power, internal drives, any circuit or power supply, USB cables, DAC card, connection wires, and so on. Any point in the computer flow can inject some nasty stuff that not only makes noise, but also might truncate the digital information...Witness all the different DAC approaches to isolating from the server and convert the digital stream with the least damage....

Just wanted to mention this in case it may be your computer contributing to your sound tending to the bright and edgy. If this is the case, it could be that better power transmission through your Maestro plug and power cables could amplify these internal issues.

My Mac Mini is hailed as quiet, and my Tranquility DAC, noted as very musical while being neutral and revealing, and the Tranquility USB cable is notably more revealing and musical than several cables I tried....but by isolating the USB power from the computer before the DAC, I heard more of what the DAC is good for...micro detail in a bed of neutral musicality.

More subtle, but real, I could hear the difference between a few Firewire cables feeding music from my external drive to the Mini.

These components and the setup are refined attempts to bring out the best of the natural sound of music, including my Mini being used as minimally as possible as a computer with only basic system stuff to support the music functioning....and still there are the above details and more that make a difference in the final sound.

So I imagine that any part of an in-computer chain would likely change the digital stream and add noise cumulatively, especially if it is not specifically designed and carefully implemented for music only.

One basis for this theory is my experience with power cords. Like Lon, I have noticed that, in general (given a similar design and good quality), the bigger wired cable will let through more in a good source component than lighter ones. Why, I don't know, but in my DAC, Zstage and CSP3, all low power source type things, it is quite clear. With two VHaudio kit cables, one smaller, for "source," and one high current....and with two PI Audio cables, one with 12 and one with 10 gauge, the bigger wires make the components better in all ways…more flow, more transparency, more micro detail and dynamics, more accurate bass, better timbre….the lot.

So I tend to feel that detail per se is not what kills the natural timbre of the music, but more the quality and breadth of the information that comes across as detail. I am thinking that when I play an acoustic instrument in a decent room, the detail is endless helping to define the whole audio spectrum, particularly from mid bass to the very high highs. It seems more a matter of getting the whole musical range out well that defines correct timbre, and in this is amazing detail, macro and micro.

I guess this is why it all matters in a system/room. If the system room somehow truncates any aspect of detail, you can't get the fine textures that make an instrument or voice really feel alive. Granted all the rest has to be there and in balance, but without micro detail a system can be good sounding, but something is just missing...the stuff that makes it possible to feel the wood of the cello, drum, piano or voice ...almost like we are playing ourselves. Some thoughts anyway.

Hey will,

When I received my new CSP2+ with the Jupiter caps I put my trusty old CSP2 in place of the ZStage and I like it about five times more than the ZStage! I imagine both would sound better with Jupiter caps, but to be honest I don't consider the ZStage really worth the investment in comparison to the CSP2 and three CSP2+ that I have. I'm just going to put it in the audio surplus closet with the other components as back up to use if needed.

It's probably a synergy thing. I can see where the ZStage may shine more in use with a Torii, I haven't tried it and am not likely to. The CSP2 immediately added more balls to the system with the modded Zen C and with the adjustable outputs I've been able to dial in great sound with several tube sets. There's just a solidity and certainty to the sound that I didn't get from the ZStage.

Kindof eager to hear how the ERRs will sound in that system.

Interesting that your CSP3 doesn't have the Jupiter caps. You are going to love it when it does!

My new CSP2+ with the Jupiter caps is really beginning to bloom and now I probably will always think about putting them in all my preamps and my ZP3. Implementing these caps is a great service Steve has done for us. I can see how with these the ZStage would be a real "shaping" tool for the Toriis. And it sure is less expensive than the CSP3s (for good reasons). The minute I first put it into Dad's system I got improved sound, and staging bloomed. Still the CSP2 just took charge. They sit side by side, same chassis, and heat up the whole cabinet real good. Gave me more tubes to roll and dial in the balance of detail and tone. Listening this week I was really surprised at the sound, especially listening to solo piano by Earl Hines and Beethoven piano and cello pieces. The speakers do a very good job of reproducing this type of material, and my Dad likes that sort of material a lot.

I think you're right, the C is really going to need the gain and grunt that the CSP2 can deliver if the ERRs are going to work well in that room. And I have gobs of gain going in to the CSP2 as well from the Marantz processor/tuner. But then again the amps and speakers can really surprise you so there's a chance that at parent approved levels sound may be amazing.

Okay, some more playing of cds in the system and some playing wiht placement of the ERRs and they clearly improve the sound. There's a spaciousness and depth that was not there before. If I could get them about three more feet out into the room,there would be the 3D lushness the speakers are so good at. .. but alas that would block the front door and the main path to the stairways upstairs, two main thoroughfares.

Listening to some Ella and she's much more solidly presented and the orchestra has greater power and breadth. Mom and Dad are happy. I'm happy. . . as happy as a tweaking audiophile gets when he reaches a certain plateau and thinks about the next one. . . .

Yes, what a journey. My mother has the mild elderly affliction and it`s a full time job just switching your head to care mode. Glad you get down time...I get the old girl off to bed early, or rather she thinks `bedtime` earlier than most. Sometimes she`ll pop her head round the door and say `I though I could see, I mean hear voices` And I think `what improvements can I make next` The wit remains.

Added a PS Audio dectet to my system last week and it's there to stay.  Much easier to organize my cords with the outlets being on top and the ability to keep my analog and digital equipment separate via the different ports is great.   Cords are no longer lying on each other and it is easier to make changes if necessary.  Sound seems to have changed slightly in a positive way but hard to put into words...nothing too drastic perhaps a little bit more weight? Biggest difference was with my Panasonic plasma's picture.  The difference was immediate, more color saturation,crisper details and depth perception.  Couple of buddies thought I had bought a newer version of the same tv...they noticed without me even saying anything.  
Everything makes a difference...time to celebrate with little Elmer T. Lee bourbon.
JD

I went back and forth between the Russian 6N15-EV and EL84 tubes in the modded C amp here at Mom and Dad's and find I just plain prefer the EL84. I had a pair of cryo'd Reflektor in the amp but broke one removing it so I odered two pair to try out, both cryo'd: a pair of TAD and a pair of Mullard.

Haven't yet tried the Mullard. I put the TAD in which took a bit of work as the base on these is thicker glass and they just barely fit in the sockets which have an aluminum protective collar around the base. They just have about 20 hours on them and the bass has not yet fully come in (I find this to be the case with cryo'd tubes, last thing to com in is the bass, the other frequencies are pretty fully realized right up front). These are really good tubes for detail hounds: reverbration trails of notes are prominent, fine details of instrument imaging and character are quite audible. My parents like them, they also have a bit more top end, and their ears like far more of that than I do. I think if/when the bass comes in strong they'll be formidable tubes. (The Reflektor ware really nicea s well, warmer, sweeter when well seasoned).

Thanks for sharing that!

I think that three months will be a time you will always remember, and I'm so glad you had rented that piano.

This is a long hard process for me but I'm sticking with it. . . .

I never thought I'd hear anyone say a CD Changer sounded good. It must be a pretty nice piece of kit!

I've not owned CAL before and was always curious. I have to say that there are countless good deals on older equipment that was top of the line back then. My point is, much of it will still sound fantastic today, and at a price that is easy to pay.

Interesting, thanks for posting that ... I've never even heard of that company before.  Is it something you've heard before and decided to buy one or just took a chance on?

Well the CL-10 has really improved my listening here a lot, both as a player (when I'm here I listen to the analog out of the player into the CSP2) or as a transport (when I leave I flick the CSP2 over to the output from the Marantz processor so that the hired help can flick a switch on that to move between the cds and the tuner in the processor if my Mom wants to listen to the radio instead; I have the CL-10 feeding the processor with a Creative Concept Black Knight coaxial digital cable, which is a pretty darned good one. None of my siblings or the hired help seem able to operate a stereo system; always amazes me, this one is pretty simple; I put a colored sticker on the button that toggles between the coaxial input of the processor and the tuner section to make it easy for them).

The big step lately though is Tuesday I put the Torii Mk II (the one that used to be Zygi's, I think the first one built) into the system in place of the Vaughn-modded Zen C amp. Wow! First off I have to say that this amp really mates with the ERR even better than the Mk IIIs I have, their strengths and weaknesses seem to line up and complement each other so I was expecting a nice match up and great sound. And I got it. Just richer and deeper in nature than that the Zen C was bringing. The Zen C has a bit of an edge on detail and "coherency" but it is in my opinion outclassed by the general ease and weight of the Mk II. Everyone is enjoying the change, orchestral music really "sings" and even solo and chamber pieces seem intimate and draw you in. The great dynamic character of the CL-10 is still preserved, outside of my PWD Mark II this is the most dynamic digital source I've had. Not quite as much so as my PWD Mark II and the Mark II has a better tonal signature overall, but for a used changer this is great sound.

I have MAC Ultra-Silver + interconnects between both the CL-10 to the CSP2 and the CSP2 to to the Mk II, and MAC Vibe (copper ribbon) interconnects between the processor and the CSP2. Decware power cords power both the CSP2 and the Mk II as well as the PS Audio Duet that they are plugged into. I have an Analysis Plus Pro Power Oval power cord powering the CL-10 and a Shunyata 3 Source powering the Marantz processor. Everything is contributing to great sound! Zen Styx are the speaker cables.

I think the best next improvement would be to buy the new DS from PS Audio in a year or less (hopefully I swing that) and then move one of my PWD Mark IIs to this system. We'll see. I'm pretty convinced the Mk IV and the ZMA are not the best amps for me, and I should hang with my Mk III at home. But I'm digging the sound here at Mom and Dad's now and since I spend so much time listening here, that's important.

I put Isoclean fuses in both the amp and preamp. Quite favorable result, just the plus side of a subtle change. This changer continues to sound surprisingly good.

I'm still curious about those fuses. I hope to find some inexpensively/used to try out on the ZMA.

Your posts can be very much enabling my audio purchasing habits.  :)

Well, I made two changes today.

After months of just running the excellent California Audio changer directly into the Torii Mk II, I reintroduced the CSP2. I removed it because I had only one free Cryoset Version 2 interconnect to use in the system and that interconnect almost achieved all the CSP2 might and I thought that there would be a bit of a transparency gain. Well maybe there was, i was very happy with the sound for some time.

But when I bought my second VooDoo Cable "Ultralinear" interconnect that freed up a second Cryoset Version 2 to use in this system, and I reintroduced the CSP2. Wow. Immediately my Dad, not knowing what I had done, said "I think all of a sudden the sound is richer." I'd agree.

I also had swapped out two Decware Silver Reference power cords from the system and replaced them with My Audio Cables Burly power cords. One runs from the wall to the PS Audio Duet, the other from the Duet to the Torii Mk III. I connected the CSP2 with one of the Decware Silver References freed from use. I know this has contributed to the "richness" as well as the dynamic contrast that I think I hear a bit more clearly on the right recordings.

Listening to Beethoven piano and cello duet recordings and they sound wonderful. And this is only a few hours into the change. Ah, it's nice to have a great system here.

Hey Lon,

How would compare 5V4s with 5V3s?

Thanks,
Will

OK Thanks! I have been trying some 5V4s after one of your posts elsewhere. Interesting, with a little more forward, open and punchy midrange and more bass. I guess they may be putting a little more DC through??? I think I like them, but have to get them under my skin! 5U4G-STs have been my main tube so long!

Great news you like the Mundorfs and Mundorfs Lon. You will likely hear refinements for a couple hundred hours. Sound like that system is really your primary system, and that it is really coming into itself beautifully.

Lon,

Did you go with the mundorf metal oxide resistors that are 3.9 ohm?  Has anyone changed resisters that were of a diff ohm?  I've changed my caps and are looking into the resistors next.  Any suggestions?

Thanks

JD

JD,

I have written a lot on this elsewhere...maybe the ERR or HR-1 threads on caps or both.

But here is what I found out from experimenting.

We know that raising the resistor value gives more resistance, lowering the tweeter volume, or lowering the resistor value makes the tweeter louder. If I like the general level of what I have, equal to equal value would seem the thing to do. But like cables, different wire and construction changes the sound, and this is a factor with the Mundorf M-Resist resistors in my experience.

The Mundorf M-Supreme 20 watt resistors are more solid and smooth sounding, not reducing detail, but feeling less bright than same value Wirewounds (likely the stock resistor).

In my HR-1s, I started with 3 ohm wirewounds, and ended up with 2R7 (2.7) Mundorfs to compensate for the Mundorf sound change. It theoretically lets through more volume, but it just sounds really good, balanced and if anything, less bright feeling.

So if you like the balance with a 3.9, and think you might want a similar sense of treble (or perhaps a touch more) but smoother and more musical, for a Mundorf M-Resist, a 3R3 might be a good choice.

Well, this system at my parents' is sounding really good.

The Mundorf Supreme capacitors are probably fully broken in and the tonal and timbral details are improved, very nice indeed. I also believe the Mundorf resistors have made a significant change.

I've also played power tube musical chairs. I put a new quad of cryo'd TAD KT66 into my main system, and took the Gold Lion Genelax KT66 that were there into this system at my parents', moving the Tung-Sol KT66 there to my second system at home (bedroom system).

The TAD seem to be doing really well in the main system and the Gold Lions are a much better fit for the Torii Mk II here at my parents' than the Tung-Sols. Just a bit richer and easier treble, which helps with all the classical music spinnning here. I also put 7308s in the Torii Mk II and in all positions on the CSP2+ and those have burned in nicely giving a great platform for the other tubes in the Torii Mk II. My next step sometime this week is to bring over better power cords from my second system at home and incorporate them here, which should yield a further improvement. Then I'll be done until . . . well I'm thinking of thinning out my audio herd, selling my PWD Mk II and PWT and my Arcam SACD player, and perhaps my C Zen amp modified by Eddie Vaughn and my CSP2 and ZStage. If I do and net enough coin I may buy a P5 or P10 and then can move my PPP to my second system and the PS Audio Dectet over here to my parents, or vice versa. That should make a further improvement.

One last development. I got to thinking about why I still felt that this system at my parents' is lacking a certain richness that I like and has a certain thinness to it that works well with some material but not others.

Then I thought about the gemstones in the Iso-Cups in use in the system: Picasso Jasper and Picture Jasper. I ended up using all Deep Moss Quartz in my main system at home and that was what worked best. So I ordered Deep Moss Quartz gemstones to replace the Jasper in the system at my parents'. . . .

Again this stuff fascinates me. The bottom end bloomed just a bit, the top end sizzled just a title less. Just what I needed. Been listening for hours and each presentation is improved the way that I would want it to. How does such a little thing like a different gemstone ball make such a difference? I'm not sure I'd understand the real reasons and probably could hear a lot of BS ones but the truth is that Iso-Cups are the best way that I've found to isolate my system, and the different balls offer a very interesting way to experiment with tonal tuning. Like tube-rolling in so many ways.

Long live Steve Herbelin.  When I have a bunch of audio dollars again I'm going to order Iso-Cups and balls for my bedroom system. I have all Tenderfeet in use there. They are better than the stock feet of components, and can be tuned around, but Iso-Cups are better, that's been clear to my ears for a while.

Yes, Will, I think they're at least worth experimenting with, they do eliminate that last bit of what I think of as "Decware brightness" and are perfect all over for my tastes, a little dab might well be a good fit with the Mk IV.

I haven't tried the Superhard balls, but at the cheaper cost I'll stick with the Deep Moss Quartz.

I agree about the Tenderfeet veil. In my second system which gets so little use now that's okay. . . but in the future I hope to use it more (hope in time to have more time off from my caregiving duties to spend with my girlfriend, who likes to spend time in the bedroom with that system). So I may get Iso-Cups in that system soon.*

A day later in this system at my parents', all the moves I made with isolation have settled in overnight and. . . man I'm happy with the sound!

* Edit to add: I bit the bullet and ordered Iso-Cups and Deep Moss Quartz balls for the second system. They should work great there. The two 100th Anniversary Denon components I have in there sound so good right now!

Cool. I've got two Sonic Stabilizers from Herbie (not stacked) on my DirectStream, makes a difference with the Iso-Cups underneath.

I think you have some fun ahead.

Yes, I haven't found them to have any real affect on the Torii amps so don't use them there. But they sound great on my digital source components, one or two. Even those with really heavy steel or wood tops.

I am currently using tenderfeet with all of my components except the PP5, where I use Gingko Mini Cloud balls.  I think it's time to give the IsoCups a try.  I will start with 3 under my amp and go from there.  Maybe I'll just order 6, so I have a few to play with.  

I finally found the Deep Moss Quartz balls you are referring to, but I think I will start with the standard Supersonic hardballs.

Will/Lon, did I read in a different post that you were using 4 or 5 under your amp to even better effect (vs. 3)?

Lon...are you using the IsoCups in conjunction with the PowerBases?  And with the DS and PWT too?

Yes to all that. Iso-Cups under components on PowerBases.

I have moved to six under amp, DS and PWT. Moving them about really can fine tune the sound. Four is plenty though and it's possible you can get the same results with a lot of patience, I'd recommend four rather than three under the amp.

Like Will I've not really had success with them under my regeneration unit, nor have I felt I get the best from my turntable with them; for those I have found that the VooDoo Cable Iso-Pods work really well, though I have the older, cheaper ones, not the ones that look like StillPoints.

I just put black Iso-Cups and Deep Moss Quartz gemstone balls under my second system, with the exception of the PS Audio Dectet there, where I have the older clear Iso-Cups I had on hand and the Quartz gemstones. What a difference! If I weren't intimately familiar with the system I may consider it just over subtle, but to my ears it's a fundamental change that addresses my biggest dislike with the system. I'm happy!

I have been listening to the ZMA directly on my audio rack without the Tenderfeet and the sound is definitely different.  The music has better defined edges without the Tenderfeet.  That said, I find that the high frequencies can sometimes be a little too harsh with the standard feet on the amp.  When I add the Tenderfeet back in, the sound definitely softens, the high frequencies are more tame, but I am noticing a slight mid-bass bloat and maybe slightly slower bass in general.  I haven't ordered the Iso-Cups yet and was wondering if those that have them can compare vs. the standard feet on the amp.  

I have not tried regular tenderfeet with my amp in a really long time, but remember not liking them with my MKIII for the reasons you mention Dave. Regular tenderfeet are rated to 40 lbs and the MKIV is a few pounds under that, and ZMA a few over... but I think they may be effected more by weight than Herbie's suggests. With lighter gear, they seem more neutral, though still a little on the dark/soft side, but with some components, nicely so.

I just put some extra firm tenderfeet under the MKIV very close to the same positions as the Isocups (which may be a mistake with them, but it is point of reference), and they sound OK. They seem quieter due to being less dynamic and less open and "awake" mids down, and they are more edgy/brittle on top. From this test, to me, there is no comparison. The isocups sound more real, more neutral, more alive with a smoother, but detailed and natural sounding top.

When I first got isopcups, it was really a different system then, but I do recall them smoothing the sound...shifting the feeling a little toward warmer/less bright. But they did it in a plausible way when thinking of noise sounding bright and edgy on top, and less articulate, dynamic, and looser lower down....rather than smoother and more revealing.

With the MKIII and MKIV, moving them around yields a number of noticeable sound variations....brighter/more open, to richer and more textured, to darker and bassier, and so on. Then, with different balls, you can go further toward a bit brighter or darker...more or less articulate...more or less highs or bass as a beginning. I found Herbie's explanation of the different balls to be pretty right here.

I would seem the ZMA would respond similarly, but not having one, I can't say.

Right now I like the stock balls under the MKIV (though, when I first got some new model isocups, I did prefer the combination of two old style with highend feet and lampblack balls, and two new style cups with supersonic balls). For my tastes, this just sounds right...nothing sticking out....balanced, revealing, smooth, dynamic, neutral.

But if tastes or the system/room causes them to sound a little "off", you can change the positions and/or balls causing somewhat subtle, but quite real shifts. And with 90 days to explore....well you can tell I think they are worth a try.

I have all my CSP2/CSP2+ preamps in use now; my trusty old CSP2 had been sitting in a closet and is now back in use. Lord help me I set up yet another system, gifted to my girlfriend to replace the twenty year old Sony system she had in her living-room. I kept her speakers, they're tower speakers and actually sound decent with the right amp. Didn't sound right with my Decware C amp modded by Eddie Vaughn, but they match really well with the DAL Audio Retro 3886 Chip Amp built just up the street from me. Surprised me how well this amp sounds with the Decware CSP2 and the PS Audio PWD Mk3. I also installed another California Audio Labs CL-10 which is a great great cd changer, I am so happy with the balanced, dynamic sound I get out of this changer. This one in this system I'm using as a transport, it's an excellent transport to feed the PWD Mk2.

I'm using good cabling (cryoset.com, Ethereal --found I needed a shielded cable running to the DAL Audio amp and that was what I have, nice cable with PCOCC wire--Decware, MAC and Analysis Plus) and in time I'll get some better power treatment there.Using Tenderfeet as well, they're working well here. The living room/dining room of her 1918 bungalow out in the woods has surprisingly good sound, which is odd with it's old suspended wood floor, two different ceiling heights, and big windows on two sides. I like the sound I'm getting, and she's over the moon happy with the improvement. "I can't believe I have tubes!" she said gleefully. I love making her happy.

I love very little more than setting up systems apparently!

Okay, the system at Lucinda's is sounding very good, she's very happy with it and I have something decent to listen to music and movies and TV on there at her house for the next six months before I move in and really take advantage of the great "rooms" she has with my main system and bedroom system. (Both her living-room/dining room and whole upstairs bedroom area are very nice-sounding rooms! As good as my Dad's living-room--I haven't had a really good room for some time).

So now I've decided I'm going to incorporate most of my current bedroom system into the system here at Dad's as I'm just not using the bedroom system at all. When Lucinda and I are in my bedroom we're not listening to music or watching TV! And I only stumble up there and fall asleep and wake up and stumble to the shower when I'm home alone. The components and most of the cabling are better there, so why not see what they do here at Dad's. What's held me back a while is that the system here IS AWESOME and I'm not really wanting to lose any magic. But chances are I'll gain not lose magic.

I'm going to do this in waves: cabling first, then source component, then amp/pre-amp, then speakers. So first I'll move over from the bedroom system the AC-12 to drive the PPP, the AC-10s for the amp and pre-amp, and leave the MAC Burly to drive the CAL-5 cd changer. Then I plan a bit later to move over the Denon DCD-A100 100th Anniversary SACD player and use that DAC for the CAL-5 changer digital out, and also play SACDs,* will probably use the other MAC Burly in use here for that. After getting a handle on that sound I'll move over the CSP2+ and Torii Mk III from the bedroom system (both with Beeswax caps) to take the place of the CSP2+ and the Torii Mk II here. Then when I've digested that, I'll try the silver HR-1s in place of the ERRs. Should sound AMAZING.

That will leave me a bedroom system with decent cabling to and from the PS Audio Dectet, my Denon BDP-A100 100th Anniversary Universal player as an audio and video source (great player, very rich sounding) and a CSP2+ and Torii Mk II connected to ERRs. Should sound very good for an occasionally used bedroom system. When I move in to Lucy's this will probably sound awesome in her upstairs area.

See, I found a way to set up two systems this month using familiar components. I love setting up systems. I should somehow find a way to make money with that!

*Just got an 8 SACD set of the Tokyo String Quartet playing the Beethoven String Quartets that I can't wait to hear in Dad's room.

Well, I took the next step, exchanged speaker cable in this system here at Dad's. I took out the Decware Styx and put in the PS Audio xStream Statement speaker cable, and the 6' length was plenty here even though these aren't very flexible speaker cables. Fits perfectly.

What a difference. Gone is the slight forward sound I was trying to eliminate here, and the lower frequencies just have so much more solidity and authority. Cello sings and resonates. Contrabass violin thumps (the way that it should, not with boomy looseness). Piano notes have a bit more control and body to the sound. A definite move forward! I always liked these speaker cables but their length only worked for me when I had a small dedicated listening room, so I moved to the Styx, and later the Mapleshade Double Helix Plus when I was able to house the main system in larger rooms. Very glad I made this move on Dad's system!

So soon I'll swap out the amp and preamp. . . . See how going from a Mk II to a Mk III with beeswax caps will be, and going from a CSP2+ without beeswax caps to one that has beeswax caps will be. I predict great sound will ensue.

Yesterday I found that there is a direct line that terminates 8 feet from one of my listening room outlets.  Nothing on this line but a sump pump and a light.  Neither are used very often.  It has to be quite a downpour before the sump kicks on.  

Anyway it took me a couple hours to tap in to the line and change out the outlet to one of my cryod hubbles but it was well worth the time.  

I didn't think I would get much of a lift given I have the power regenerator but I was wrong.  Very nice increase in SQ.   More bass depth and better texture to the music all around.

Last week I experimented with this system at Dad's by putting in the TAD 6L6 in the power slots on the Torii Mk III. I then rolled the Westing House OA3 to Hytron OB3 and the RCA OA2 to Raytheon OC2 and did some adjustment with the treble cut circuit and some really interesting sound has resulted. I may put the Genelax KT66 back in soon, as there's a seductive touch of lushness that these impart to the sound that I miss, but the 6L6 bring a focused intensity to the sound that is really nice with classical music and for the ERR speakers. Dynamic and tonally rich, but focused tight. A nice change. I like the 6L6 in the Mk III better than they had fared in the Mk II.

I also for the second time put my Eddie Vaughn modded "C" Zen amp into the system at Lucinda's. When I first set up a system there (keeping only her Sony floor-standing speakers which I must say I've learned to like) something was not quite right, I thought the amp was not quite up to driving the speakers, so I popped in my DAL Audio gain-clone amp and that sounded very good, surprisingly good as more and more hours went on. The DAL Audio amp had a really solid instrumental image and a very nice neutral tone and it only lacked the extremity of the holographic soundstage you get with a Zen amp. Though there was a hum I just couldn't get completely rid of even with shield cables and  PS Audio Duet line conditioning. The hum didn't bother Lucinda and she LOVED the sound for TV, DVD and music. I was quite comfortable with it too, didn't feel I was "stepping down" too much listening over there. But now the "C" amp shines, not sure why it does so differently now though I have rolled some CSP2 tubes since then. And no hum! Unexpectedly a denser (less instrumental separation actually, which surprises me) sound than then DAL Audio but with that 3D quality. I didn't tell Lucinda I was doing the change and when she came in from work she started dancing in the living room to the Derailers cd I was spinning. She's enjoying the sound--sound effects on the TV seem to really grab her attention more and she approves of the amp change!

So now all my Decware amps are in use. . . . When I move in to her place in July I probably will only have two systems set up (main in the place of this one, bedroom in the bedroom) and this "C" will go back into the closet as back up.

One final change here (yeah right). Due to receiving some headphones and needing to have a CSP2+ with a headphone jack in my main system (the one I like most does not have a headphone jack) I moved out the CSP2+ from this system here at Dad's and was going to put the first CSP2+ in (which had been sitting doorman a while) but when I did I discovered it needs some work. Doesn't seem to be tubes but there's some distortion and channel imbalance. So I just have the Denon DCD-A100 SACD player/DAC running straight into the Torii Mk III via the best interconnect in the system, the VooDoo Cable UltraLinear.

Whoa! Such clarity! Such dynamics! I had gotten used to the natural compression the CSP2+ brings to the system, and this really does help with listening levels with classical music (allowing the very quiet to be a bit more prominent) but with just one interconnect in the path (may be a bit different if I had two UltraLinears here but the other is an Evolution) things are better. Dad sat right up and said "That sounds really good." Nice to have this sort of affirmation!

I promise myself I'll not make any more changes. . . soon.

Indeed.

Though I think it will be grinding to a halt soon. And I'll probably be putting a lot of things up for sale. When I move this summer I won't need but my main system and a headphone system. That will mean I have at least two full systems to sell and possibly three as my Dad will probably need a simpler system in his new home, and he has that on hand with his prior equipment and a pair of PeachTree bookshelf speakers I have. I'm going to be putting a lot of cds and books into storage, but no need to store a lot of stereo equipment. So I'll probably sell a few amps, a few sources and a set of speakers (probably the ERRs, can't see myself selling a pair of HR-1s unless someone locally wants them.) And a lot of cables etc. End of an era, where it's no more "lonely boy audiophile with time on his hands" and straight into life with a wonderful woman again (and one who is not into audio even though she's not a music hater).

I have a bit of trepidation about all this mainly because I hate selling stuff and hate parting with stuff, but it has to happen. . . it will be years and years before Lucy and I have a bigger house and I can then perhaps have the fun of doing this all over again.

Cool. I'll be working that out in the next months. Too bad I don't have room to store onsite. We have to decide in the next few years whether to build on her property or whether we are going to move somewhere warmer in time. She wants to work five to ten more years. . . when she stops working there's a possibility of moving to South Carolina or Georgia, somewhere like that. And of a few of her sisters moving too. They can't bear to be too far apart. We men in their lives just go with the flow. . . it's easiest that way. And her sisters are amazing women, I love them all, already.

Lon, if you have a spare Torii MK III, I may be interested, especially with Beeswax Caps on it. I may even have it go through the UFO Mod conversion and warranty transfer, if applicable.

Of course, it will all depend on the modification costs and the amp's selling price. It could well be I would be better off going for the MK IV directly.

Thanks!

Great, thanks!

Good luck with the move, and a happy future Lon!