Thanks!

Interesting response. Some good quality comparisons ahead. Be sure to give these each some time to settle in.

highstream, sorry missed this post before. Good news that the Venoms worked out for you. And you know, not surprised about the Mapleshade component. I too appreciate natural tonality above everything else really, that's the "root."

I've decided the Zen C modded by Eddie Vaughan sounds much better with the cryo'd EL84s, the other tubes just have a touch of that coldness. My second pair of HR-1s are in the "finish curing" stage so that means that soon I'll be able to bring the ERRs over to Dad's system. Really looking forward to that. Hope the C has enough OOOMPH for Dad's room! I think that between the gobs of gain the Marantz and CSP2 have to offer it should be okay.

Interesting. Yes, it' is amazing what power cords do. So many possibilities really.

It's sometimes fun, and sometimes frustrating playing round with them.

The Shunyata Venom 3 PCs were among the most lauded, especially for the money, in a review of 13 cords by Absolute Sound in 2012, which along with their price is why they get so much attention.  In addition, it's important to recognize that how a cord sounds can be system specific.  That said, my priority is on the musical content of recordings, e.g. timbre, including tonal accuracy, rather than how it ‘sounds’ in the more traditional audiophile ‘sonic’ sense.  That puts me in a minority, to which you may or may not belong.  On that score, the Venom 3 has many wonderful qualities but hasn't quite cut it in my systems, although I say that with the caveat about the Maestro outlet (and Porter for my TV system).  Remember, the Venom 3 is relatively cheap as audiophile market power cords go, so one can't expect everything.

A poorly matched power cord can make a great amp or speaker or whatever come out much worse than it should, no less so than an interconnect can.  The main reason for those lengthy burnin discussions is the naysayers; they should be politely told to check things out for themselves and otherwise ignored.  

Beowulf and LR,

I avoid most forums (or threads) because of the less than useful posts we have to wander through to get to thoughtful explanations that give us the what and why...as you say LR, with context. Luckily, there are a few around like this Forum that have somehow tended toward more knowledge enhancing information while avoiding the swinging dick and naysayer effects for the most part...forums who are made up of a lot of folks really looking for the real sound and willing to explore how to get there.

From this context it appears to me that standing behind a certain vendor tends to have merit, but of course, as highstream says...system dependent is sort of vast. This is especially true since room typically has a powerful influence on tonal balance.

So I second your point LR about context. After getting the sense of some forum members preferences over time, it sort of works to hear..."this is a great cable" or whatever, but for me it is always better to get comparisons and tonal value shifts from one to another.

I think this is especially important based upon the reality that one person might prefer a cable for compensating for an overly bright or edgy system/room, another might have a neutral system/room, and another a dark room...at times without even realizing it is happening....how much the environment, power, vibration and so on contribute to the tonal balance and quality.

Then there are a lot of us who no matter what the general character of sound we have arrived at, have very revealing systems that we have been refining to tastes for a long time, and therefore need pretty good information to make a leap here or there.

And then there are those of us who just can't hear the subtler stuff do to some physical thing....and so on and so on.

It is an interesting path!

EDIT: sorry highstream I put this post up before seeing your last one. It is an amazingly fun journey this audio dream!

highstream,

Quote:


I am guessing you are onto this, but not knowing your system I will go on. As Lon is illustrating in this thread, with my system explorations, there is no doubt that good power, and then the power and quality of components, vibration and noise isolation in and between components, cable quality, and so on, are all really important. From what I hear, a lot of what this all does is reduce hash, glare and smearing while allowing natural definition and detail across the spectrum without harshness.

I think that especially with most computers, noise is an inherent issue, and some make more noise than others (and inject it into the system). It seems this can manifest in about any way...through AC power, a bad cord, DC power, internal drives, any circuit or power supply, USB cables, DAC card, connection wires, and so on. Any point in the computer flow can inject some nasty stuff that not only makes noise, but also might truncate the digital information...Witness all the different DAC approaches to isolating from the server and convert the digital stream with the least damage....

Just wanted to mention this in case it may be your computer contributing to your sound tending to the bright and edgy. If this is the case, it could be that better power transmission through your Maestro plug and power cables could amplify these internal issues.

My Mac Mini is hailed as quiet, and my Tranquility DAC, noted as very musical while being neutral and revealing, and the Tranquility USB cable is notably more revealing and musical than several cables I tried....but by isolating the USB power from the computer before the DAC, I heard more of what the DAC is good for...micro detail in a bed of neutral musicality.

More subtle, but real, I could hear the difference between a few Firewire cables feeding music from my external drive to the Mini.

These components and the setup are refined attempts to bring out the best of the natural sound of music, including my Mini being used as minimally as possible as a computer with only basic system stuff to support the music functioning....and still there are the above details and more that make a difference in the final sound.

So I imagine that any part of an in-computer chain would likely change the digital stream and add noise cumulatively, especially if it is not specifically designed and carefully implemented for music only.

One basis for this theory is my experience with power cords. Like Lon, I have noticed that, in general (given a similar design and good quality), the bigger wired cable will let through more in a good source component than lighter ones. Why, I don't know, but in my DAC, Zstage and CSP3, all low power source type things, it is quite clear. With two VHaudio kit cables, one smaller, for "source," and one high current....and with two PI Audio cables, one with 12 and one with 10 gauge, the bigger wires make the components better in all ways…more flow, more transparency, more micro detail and dynamics, more accurate bass, better timbre….the lot.

So I tend to feel that detail per se is not what kills the natural timbre of the music, but more the quality and breadth of the information that comes across as detail. I am thinking that when I play an acoustic instrument in a decent room, the detail is endless helping to define the whole audio spectrum, particularly from mid bass to the very high highs. It seems more a matter of getting the whole musical range out well that defines correct timbre, and in this is amazing detail, macro and micro.

I guess this is why it all matters in a system/room. If the system room somehow truncates any aspect of detail, you can't get the fine textures that make an instrument or voice really feel alive. Granted all the rest has to be there and in balance, but without micro detail a system can be good sounding, but something is just missing...the stuff that makes it possible to feel the wood of the cello, drum, piano or voice ...almost like we are playing ourselves. Some thoughts anyway.

Hey will,

When I received my new CSP2+ with the Jupiter caps I put my trusty old CSP2 in place of the ZStage and I like it about five times more than the ZStage! I imagine both would sound better with Jupiter caps, but to be honest I don't consider the ZStage really worth the investment in comparison to the CSP2 and three CSP2+ that I have. I'm just going to put it in the audio surplus closet with the other components as back up to use if needed.

It's probably a synergy thing. I can see where the ZStage may shine more in use with a Torii, I haven't tried it and am not likely to. The CSP2 immediately added more balls to the system with the modded Zen C and with the adjustable outputs I've been able to dial in great sound with several tube sets. There's just a solidity and certainty to the sound that I didn't get from the ZStage.

Kindof eager to hear how the ERRs will sound in that system.

Interesting that your CSP3 doesn't have the Jupiter caps. You are going to love it when it does!

My new CSP2+ with the Jupiter caps is really beginning to bloom and now I probably will always think about putting them in all my preamps and my ZP3. Implementing these caps is a great service Steve has done for us. I can see how with these the ZStage would be a real "shaping" tool for the Toriis. And it sure is less expensive than the CSP3s (for good reasons). The minute I first put it into Dad's system I got improved sound, and staging bloomed. Still the CSP2 just took charge. They sit side by side, same chassis, and heat up the whole cabinet real good. Gave me more tubes to roll and dial in the balance of detail and tone. Listening this week I was really surprised at the sound, especially listening to solo piano by Earl Hines and Beethoven piano and cello pieces. The speakers do a very good job of reproducing this type of material, and my Dad likes that sort of material a lot.

I think you're right, the C is really going to need the gain and grunt that the CSP2 can deliver if the ERRs are going to work well in that room. And I have gobs of gain going in to the CSP2 as well from the Marantz processor/tuner. But then again the amps and speakers can really surprise you so there's a chance that at parent approved levels sound may be amazing.

Okay, some more playing of cds in the system and some playing wiht placement of the ERRs and they clearly improve the sound. There's a spaciousness and depth that was not there before. If I could get them about three more feet out into the room,there would be the 3D lushness the speakers are so good at. .. but alas that would block the front door and the main path to the stairways upstairs, two main thoroughfares.

Listening to some Ella and she's much more solidly presented and the orchestra has greater power and breadth. Mom and Dad are happy. I'm happy. . . as happy as a tweaking audiophile gets when he reaches a certain plateau and thinks about the next one. . . .

Yes, what a journey. My mother has the mild elderly affliction and it`s a full time job just switching your head to care mode. Glad you get down time...I get the old girl off to bed early, or rather she thinks `bedtime` earlier than most. Sometimes she`ll pop her head round the door and say `I though I could see, I mean hear voices` And I think `what improvements can I make next` The wit remains.

Added a PS Audio dectet to my system last week and it's there to stay.  Much easier to organize my cords with the outlets being on top and the ability to keep my analog and digital equipment separate via the different ports is great.   Cords are no longer lying on each other and it is easier to make changes if necessary.  Sound seems to have changed slightly in a positive way but hard to put into words...nothing too drastic perhaps a little bit more weight? Biggest difference was with my Panasonic plasma's picture.  The difference was immediate, more color saturation,crisper details and depth perception.  Couple of buddies thought I had bought a newer version of the same tv...they noticed without me even saying anything.  
Everything makes a difference...time to celebrate with little Elmer T. Lee bourbon.
JD

I went back and forth between the Russian 6N15-EV and EL84 tubes in the modded C amp here at Mom and Dad's and find I just plain prefer the EL84. I had a pair of cryo'd Reflektor in the amp but broke one removing it so I odered two pair to try out, both cryo'd: a pair of TAD and a pair of Mullard.

Haven't yet tried the Mullard. I put the TAD in which took a bit of work as the base on these is thicker glass and they just barely fit in the sockets which have an aluminum protective collar around the base. They just have about 20 hours on them and the bass has not yet fully come in (I find this to be the case with cryo'd tubes, last thing to com in is the bass, the other frequencies are pretty fully realized right up front). These are really good tubes for detail hounds: reverbration trails of notes are prominent, fine details of instrument imaging and character are quite audible. My parents like them, they also have a bit more top end, and their ears like far more of that than I do. I think if/when the bass comes in strong they'll be formidable tubes. (The Reflektor ware really nicea s well, warmer, sweeter when well seasoned).

Thanks for sharing that!

I think that three months will be a time you will always remember, and I'm so glad you had rented that piano.

This is a long hard process for me but I'm sticking with it. . . .

I never thought I'd hear anyone say a CD Changer sounded good. It must be a pretty nice piece of kit!

I've not owned CAL before and was always curious. I have to say that there are countless good deals on older equipment that was top of the line back then. My point is, much of it will still sound fantastic today, and at a price that is easy to pay.

Interesting, thanks for posting that ... I've never even heard of that company before.  Is it something you've heard before and decided to buy one or just took a chance on?

Well the CL-10 has really improved my listening here a lot, both as a player (when I'm here I listen to the analog out of the player into the CSP2) or as a transport (when I leave I flick the CSP2 over to the output from the Marantz processor so that the hired help can flick a switch on that to move between the cds and the tuner in the processor if my Mom wants to listen to the radio instead; I have the CL-10 feeding the processor with a Creative Concept Black Knight coaxial digital cable, which is a pretty darned good one. None of my siblings or the hired help seem able to operate a stereo system; always amazes me, this one is pretty simple; I put a colored sticker on the button that toggles between the coaxial input of the processor and the tuner section to make it easy for them).

The big step lately though is Tuesday I put the Torii Mk II (the one that used to be Zygi's, I think the first one built) into the system in place of the Vaughn-modded Zen C amp. Wow! First off I have to say that this amp really mates with the ERR even better than the Mk IIIs I have, their strengths and weaknesses seem to line up and complement each other so I was expecting a nice match up and great sound. And I got it. Just richer and deeper in nature than that the Zen C was bringing. The Zen C has a bit of an edge on detail and "coherency" but it is in my opinion outclassed by the general ease and weight of the Mk II. Everyone is enjoying the change, orchestral music really "sings" and even solo and chamber pieces seem intimate and draw you in. The great dynamic character of the CL-10 is still preserved, outside of my PWD Mark II this is the most dynamic digital source I've had. Not quite as much so as my PWD Mark II and the Mark II has a better tonal signature overall, but for a used changer this is great sound.

I have MAC Ultra-Silver + interconnects between both the CL-10 to the CSP2 and the CSP2 to to the Mk II, and MAC Vibe (copper ribbon) interconnects between the processor and the CSP2. Decware power cords power both the CSP2 and the Mk II as well as the PS Audio Duet that they are plugged into. I have an Analysis Plus Pro Power Oval power cord powering the CL-10 and a Shunyata 3 Source powering the Marantz processor. Everything is contributing to great sound! Zen Styx are the speaker cables.

I think the best next improvement would be to buy the new DS from PS Audio in a year or less (hopefully I swing that) and then move one of my PWD Mark IIs to this system. We'll see. I'm pretty convinced the Mk IV and the ZMA are not the best amps for me, and I should hang with my Mk III at home. But I'm digging the sound here at Mom and Dad's now and since I spend so much time listening here, that's important.

I put Isoclean fuses in both the amp and preamp. Quite favorable result, just the plus side of a subtle change. This changer continues to sound surprisingly good.

I'm still curious about those fuses. I hope to find some inexpensively/used to try out on the ZMA.

Your posts can be very much enabling my audio purchasing habits.  :)

Well, I made two changes today.

After months of just running the excellent California Audio changer directly into the Torii Mk II, I reintroduced the CSP2. I removed it because I had only one free Cryoset Version 2 interconnect to use in the system and that interconnect almost achieved all the CSP2 might and I thought that there would be a bit of a transparency gain. Well maybe there was, i was very happy with the sound for some time.

But when I bought my second VooDoo Cable "Ultralinear" interconnect that freed up a second Cryoset Version 2 to use in this system, and I reintroduced the CSP2. Wow. Immediately my Dad, not knowing what I had done, said "I think all of a sudden the sound is richer." I'd agree.

I also had swapped out two Decware Silver Reference power cords from the system and replaced them with My Audio Cables Burly power cords. One runs from the wall to the PS Audio Duet, the other from the Duet to the Torii Mk III. I connected the CSP2 with one of the Decware Silver References freed from use. I know this has contributed to the "richness" as well as the dynamic contrast that I think I hear a bit more clearly on the right recordings.

Listening to Beethoven piano and cello duet recordings and they sound wonderful. And this is only a few hours into the change. Ah, it's nice to have a great system here.

Hey Lon,

How would compare 5V4s with 5V3s?

Thanks,
Will

OK Thanks! I have been trying some 5V4s after one of your posts elsewhere. Interesting, with a little more forward, open and punchy midrange and more bass. I guess they may be putting a little more DC through??? I think I like them, but have to get them under my skin! 5U4G-STs have been my main tube so long!

Great news you like the Mundorfs and Mundorfs Lon. You will likely hear refinements for a couple hundred hours. Sound like that system is really your primary system, and that it is really coming into itself beautifully.

Lon,

Did you go with the mundorf metal oxide resistors that are 3.9 ohm?  Has anyone changed resisters that were of a diff ohm?  I've changed my caps and are looking into the resistors next.  Any suggestions?

Thanks

JD