Hi Steve,

The implications of the extra gain on the Mini-Torii (a well known design fact) are not that convenient when trying to 'ride the gain', especially to boost weight and body, isn't it?

I mean, if we need to increase the output gain from the preamp we need to also decrease the volume on the amp to achieve a positive signal pressure on the preamp's end and allow the boosting described.

This would entail the amp would always be run in the less transparent range of the volume pot, a not desirable condition.

If, on the other hand, one wants to use the higher range of the amp's volume, the preamp would have to come down, therefore creating a leaner sound altogether (as the starving input signal would be diluted further by the amp's higher volume), wouldn't it?

So either we lean the sound and work on the transparent range of the amp, or else, boost the sound by working the amp on the less transparent range. A difficult tradeoff to face.

On a side note, I'm about to get a DAC with a built-in, transparent preamp. The range of the preamp's 'analogue' volume is 0-12dBs. The output voltage is rated at 2V at 0dB. Would this be enough to ride the gain in the Mini-Torii?

Thanks for any orientation.

        Guys have fun! Sounds like you will have some more excitement coming your way. Your going to love those CSP3's. Best money I have ever spent.                          

I seem to be the only person with whom this whole preamp subject is not sitting well?

Plunked down 5000 for an integrated amp that it turns out really is not integrated and everyone recommends a preamp... I wasn't really looking for a new problem to solve when I made the order.

I got the xlr input option so this means I need a pre with rca and XLR output... does decware have one of those? is it an option?

Also, its tuesday but our ZMA's did not ship. anybody know why or have an estimated date?

I'm hoping getting the amp in my hands helps to alleviate or clairify my concerns and I can stop conjecturing. is that a word.  

Good point. totally understand. Auralic Vega is 4.7v thru rca and xlr... might be a great option.

Having multiple source level inputs with a volume control as many of Steve's amps provides is the same as having a passive preamp with a volume control tied to an amp at full gain.  Many purists who's amp has no gain control of its own take this approach as a way to not introduce any new "character" to the amp's signature.

Adding an active preamp that adds gain is the missing piece that really drives the amp's capabilities.  This added gain is like putting a turbo on a car engine.  A car's engine, like an amp, has a fixed horsepower.  It can only put out so much.  How you get to that max horsepower is another story.  An active preamp urges the amp's power with better responsiveness, helping dynamics.  

From day one with my Torii I never considered not using my preamp (Cary SLP 98P).  It will take its place with my ZMA soon.  I happen to need it for its phono stage but I really like the other control features, such as separate channel level controls for room balancing, a master volume, and of course the remote.  I really enjoy having a remote for various reasons, even if it only controls volume and mute functions.  

Because the Cary is all tubes playing CDs through it seems the best approach also.  If the CSP3 could merge with the ZP3 and an RF remote, that would be a great offering but it would require starting from a clean sheet of design paper, something Steve has some experience with I think.  

Exactly stellablues, you need to have the ZMA in your Room to know.

I could happily live with my 3.6 volt output from my DAC/volume control. However, I can swing it at this time to add even more "Tube Love"...with the added versatility...to "squeeze" even more goodness out of the combination of CSP3 & ZMA.

I love this Amp. It never leaves Class A/no neg feedback with glorious even order harmonics....this does not get talked about enough. Thus, the balancing Act...of Watts output Steve chose...NOT to get into negative feedback needing to be applied.

Before I ordered Steve's CSP3...I actually considered getting a $4500 Audio Research Pre....but I want the no neg feedback and purity Steve provides with the 0 - 30 volt gain for use with the CSP3's Master Volume control! This also affords me to be able to buy another .5 meter of Kimber Select 1030 IC, that I so dearly love with all 3 of my Decware Amps (with Kimber Select Speaker Cable).

Vyokyong, I have similar XLO Power Cords...love them. I use one in my bedroom system with my SE84CS per Svetlana SV83 original NOS output Tubes...great Cord. I will use my other XLO for my CSP3....I have a Pangea AC-9SE for the ZMA....just perfect/great.    -S

Caveat outside the Purity of the Listening Room Experience: (I use a Kimber PK-10 Palladium Power Cord to my Solid State Power Amp in my Living Room Rig....makes the thing much more tolerable for sure = it is more than subtle in what it does = improvement).

Hi fellas,

Glad to hear that ZMA is working wonders for you all.

Dear Stellablues,

System synergy has an important bearing on whether an extra preamp is required.

My experience with the Decware CSP3 is that it added an extra layer of sonic veil which I did not like with my Decware Torii MK4.

On the other hand, it added an extra pinch of hypnotic allure to my other SE tube amp whilst preserving the sonic transparency.
( my other non-Decware SE amp has the same transparency and lack of sonic veil as compared with the PP Decware Torii MK4).

So there is a risk that you might not like the sonic veil introduced into your ZMA based system, which I gather is already extremely transparent.

My ZMA is being fed a fine feast of bits directly from the PW DAC and it's spitting out some beautiful music.

I should hit the 100 hour mark by the end of the week.  The amp hasn't sounded better and my ears are VERY happy!  

Back to the music...  

Okay. It's just not my experience at all.

Quote:


Steve said "more romantic" - whatever that means! LOL

I don't know if this was happenstance or you saw my post in the Classified, I'm looking for a quad to test. Reason being, last night I was playing some recordings that I kinda like, but it was very dry. I'm also trying what Steve recommended by putting the Oppo at 100% and using the volume on the ZMA to see what I see.

As far as I can tell, having the Oppo at 100% and ZMA being the variable, it's just showing how dry and analytic the Oppo is, and dry or poor recordings are painfully so. I'm hoping to try some KT120 to see what a "more romantic" presentation might do for that.

I can't afford a preamp right now, so maybe some used tubes will help.

I still love the Oppo though, it does the detail thing well.

Yes, ZMA is liquid, honesty and high resolution. Oppo is in thin and dry sound compared to Accuphase. In my case of Accuphase, I am impression of ZMA to provide low freq sound region, base is tight, speed and details so that I can hear details of drum skin, like you sit next close to drummer. But I wish base to have more weight and slam! However the mid freq sound region, particularly vocal voice, is not impress. It is improved and better than my Pass Labs SS Amp. But all of us know that tube amp has mid sweet sound, particularly vocal voice, to die for. I just have a hope that the mid sound will be sweet when ZMA passes > 200 hrs. But it is lucky that I replace my Siltech SPX30 power cord (which is made of silver + gold wire) with new XLO Ref3 power cord which is made of copper wire. The sound tone shifts to more mid range sound. Now my mid sound is very sweet and vocal voice is so sweet to die for. It is sacrifice of details in base sound, less hear drum skin, but the base has more weight and slam as I wish. The sound stage is wider, each instrument has more mass or size of real live concert, more separate with more black background. Before each instrument is small size, thin and sharp image. Now I am very very happy.
Its sound improves to next level, more like real live concert.

Then I would suggest to try replace silver cable of IC or power cord with copper cable. It may help to solve dry sound in your system!

Parts pulled for my ZMA today. I like what Steve is saying about the balanced inputs. I can't wait to hear how it sounds straight from my M51 DAC.

I am very much enjoying how my system sounds right now (PW DAC-->ZMA-->944).  I expect it will only get better with continued break in.  

I recently used a laser measure to fine tune placement of the 944's.  I wish I would have done that earlier.  Imaging is spot on and the sweet spot is very sweet.  Albeit very head in a vice.  

I have never had a tube pre-amp in my system so I don't know what I am missing (if anything).  I applaud the folks who are going to get the preamp and decide whether or not it works for them.

I have a couple things I want to try over the next week:
1)      Plug the ZMA directly into the wall and bypass the PowerPlant
2)      8 ohm vs. 4 ohm taps
3)      Balanced vs. unbalanced inputs

I also have an Oppo BDP-93 that I can substitute as a source.

LR…Not sure if others are interested, but it would be great if you could provide a list of the discs/music you found to be dry so people can use them as a reference (if they so choose).  Cheers!

I did the MOD!

Separation of Audio Ground from Earth Ground. BUZZ be gone....I have cast you out!

Lowest possible noise floor now re-established. Engage Mr. LaForge! ....give her all you got Scotty!    

It was cool to crack her open and follow the signal paths (0A3's to preamp tube) and see those sweet Jupiter Cap bundles too!

.....and not a DAMN TRANSISTOR IN SIGHT!

Cheers, Stone

Today I'm playing with my new Roku device, seeing what all features it has and watching some TV and listening to Music on it - and I'm astounded how great it sounds, even on streamed TV shows. Then I play some BBC TV shows I downloaded, and every opening track sounds great. Now I'm playing some random FLAC files and I'm marveling at how great everything sounds.

Then I remember, Oh yeah, I've had the amp on (not playing the whole time) for 2 days straight, and I'm closing in on 200 hours. This amp just gets better and better.

ZMA is back in and sounding very good (quiet now). I had my SE84CS in the System on Friday. Man, do I love that AMP!

However, the ZMA is back in this morning with the Power...is just kickin' it right now!

I do look forward to seeing what the CSP3 in front of it will do. Also, I am going to sell a couple of pair of Speakers in the Spring to get a good pair of Headphones....like the Audeze LCD -X. Beats Audio WHO?  -S

Yes LR, we have to appreciate the Big Reds = Mallory NOS Caps in the ZMA.

I also appreciate the design of this Amp, having personally opened it for my MOD and admired the build quality of the ZMA with tracing most of the signal paths and grounds.

LR, what do you think of your Pangea AC-9SE? I find it, in my System with the ZMA, to be elaborated to excess in the Bass & midrange push out. I have gone back to my XLO Power Cord, which has complete Tonal Balance with the ZMA. I am glad I have another of the same XLO to go to my CSP3 coming.

Of course, yours and others mileage may very with it to the ZMA.

I put the Pangea AC-9SE with my Rotel 1062 preamplifier = very nice with Solid State. I have a Kimber Palladium PK-10 (Kimber's best I bought used from David Weinhart/Weinhart Design out of LA-he has a lot of good stuff he takes on trade...because people have upgrade idis'-hehe)...the Palldium runs to my Emotiva XPA-2 Solid State Amp....and takes this Amplifier to a whole other level for the Living Room Rig.

But I'll tell you, this Pangea is one hell of a value because it competes with my Palladium PK-10.....no doubt. I just feel it is better suited for Solid State, like the Kimber Power Cord is..... .

I am thinking about signing up for the trial service at the cable company to give us some variety.

Hey Dave,

I just got the ZMA up and running tonight.. Im on hour 2. I am using XLR and have not yet tried my RCA.

The beck album is amazing on vinyl. i played side 2 about 8 times in a row last weekend...

You might look at VH Audio DIY silver XLR cables. this is what I am using but I have always built my own cables and always preferred silver. not too difficult but soldering experience helps.

http://www.vhaudio.com/wire.html  

altogether around $110 with all parts. if you upgrade to OCC wire its 70 bucks more. I may build another set using that cable here soon.

won't get you that immediate fix however.

Which Beck album are you talking about here?  I'm putting my monthly vinyl buy list together so this is timely.  I am also picking up my ZMA tomorrow at Decware (road trip) and will like getting some new music to help put it through its paces.

I will be picking up the ZMA in person becuase I'm swapping the Torii MK IV for it.  Steve and I came to agreeable terms on that.  I will be a little sad giving up the MK IV.  It is sounding SO good.  Has anyone else had both the MK IV and the ZMA?  I'm guessing from reading early reports that the ZMA won't disappoint, rather it will be the amp I really need for my JansZen speakers.  

The Torii has worked really well but I can foresee a time in the future where I will have a bigger room and the ZMA seems like a better fit given the nature of my speakers.  I also remember reading way back on page 7 of this thread where Steve and David Janszen both certified this speaker/amp combo.  I'm really looking forward to seeing if the ZMA does in fact give that extra oomph.  The sound is so good now with the Torii that any added performance will be very cool.  

I have been watching the weather.  We had 73 degrees yesterday here in Cincinnati.  Today is much colder and rain.  I realize traveling north will make that worse.  I'm motivated however and have four wheel drive if needed.

My son has the day off and he will be my traveling buddy to help with the driving and to provide company.  We both like road trips and I don't get as much time with him as I would like, so the trip will be good for a variety of reasons.

The latest Beck album is Morning Phase.  See link below:

http://www.amazon.com/Morning-Phase-Beck/dp/B00HHYEOY0/ref=tmm_acd_title_0?ie=UT...

If you like the music on his new album, also check out Sea Change.  Both albums have excellent sound quality.

Can't wait to hear your impressions of the Mystery amp with the JansZens.  Those speakers are on my short list to demo.

Cheers and have a safe trip!

Awesome jsm71, you are going to love it (ZMA).
You have a nice Pre for it too.

My CSP3 has made the Build Sheet!

I came to my senses and I will run my Kimber Silver Streak from DAC to CSP3...then from CSP3 to ZMA will be my Kimber Select KS-1030. The damn 1030 IC has gotten to up there in price for me to get another.

ZMA is making music right now.....back to it.  -S

I just switched from the 4 ohm taps to the 8 ohm taps to assess differences/preference with my setup.  For reference, I did ask Steve what he prefers, and below is the response I received:  

"Myself I often use the 8 ohm taps with 944's, but it's a room dependent choice combined with how loud you're going to try to play the amp."

That said, I think the guidance is try for yourself and decide.  

LR...have you tried both taps with your 944's?  If so, where did you net out?

This may be a stupid question, but do transformers also need some time to break in?