Hey macSu. Your question is similar to one I have been wondering about. Right now, I have a cube sub with plate amplifier. Tolerable for casual listening, but I plan to replace it with a Wicked One, and as I move away from my Denon-centered system (with its system-tuning pre-pro capabilities—note, Steve is completely right that such capabilities are very limited, and tha on any given recording or movie, the likely are fairly inaccurate), I will have the same issues.  In addition to bass management questions, I am also curious about center channel amplification. As you know from other threads, I plan to have my Oppo BDP-95 feed the Ultra preamplifier. Elsewhere, Steve has suggested the possible use of dual ERRs firing towards the wall as the center channel. That is probably not an option for me, as much as I would love it. Instead, I need to consider somethng that will be tonally similar to the ERR, probably driven by a mono block, perhaps the Zen Triode. While I think it will be easier to manage the center than the bass, and Steve describes some ways to do so on the Ultra page, I still expect a learning curve. And probably some room treatment. My wife is very supportive of my hobby, but I haven't said anything about room treatment.  ;)

mac5u (sorry, just realized I have been spelling your nickname wrong; my apologies!), at the end of the day, I will probably opt for 3 pairs of ERRs. Five would be the magic number, but I don't think Steve sells them that way, and buying three pair will force me to deal with the center channel issue the right way.

I was unaware of Outlaw Audio until you mentioned them. Interesting website. I like their approach, though I confess I cannot imagine returning to SS.

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You and me both. I am hoping for that, but as you can tell from my orders, I am not waiting to find out.

I suspect, before I am through, I will go with dual ERRs for my center channel. When I get there, if Steve hasn't announced a >2 channel amp, I will likely pick up a Zen that can be configured for mono.

At times, I wish I had the right room adjustments available in the digital domain. My current Denon's somewhat primitive capabilities are in some respects better than an uncompensated room.

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No kidding! I fel like I have tubes coming out of my ears in anticipation of the Ultra and the Toriis. I asked this question elsewhere, but how do people store their tubes? I saw some nice cases at Tube Depot, but wondered what folks do.

My apologies for the thread wandering here, but mac5u, given your interest in correction, have you looked at ambiophonics? There is some info on it posted in the Room Treatment forum, but if you get a chance, take a look at this paper; it sure has me thinking about my setup.

I admit I am reluctant to inject a bunch of DSP into a chain in which I have invested a fair bit of analog effort, but it is interesting.

Pale Rider,

Yes, I have heard of ambiophonics but haven't given it much thought given the constraints on speaker placement. Thanks for the link.  I am going to read through it today as I took a day off from work.

I still think that most rooms need EQ if not treated.  However, I am beginning to think that maybe Room EQ is not as necessary with the ERRs or Walsh Ohms as it might be with more traditional forward-firing speakers.

Like a lot of people, I am constrained by budget so I am unable to get both a Marantz AV7005 and the Zen Ultra to try           side-by-side, and room aesthetic requirements (room treatments are going to be minimal except for traditional room furnishings).

I asked a question over on Audiogon about whether Ohm users found using modern Room EQ beneficial.   As might be expected, some said yes and some said no or they hadn't tried it.  Maybe in bass management, it might be the most helpful? If that might be the case, then there are analog routes to go such as the Outlaw ICBM-2 and getting the Marantz becomes less of a priority.  Dunno.

Since you bring up ambiophonics, Pale Rider, one thing that has long interested me is the Bongiorno Trinaural Processor.  It has been described as a pure analog 3.1 version of Meridian’s Ambisonic DSP.  I’ve not heard either.  

From the Owner's Manual:  "...it is a 3-ch L/C/R processor which uses cross-canceling in the L/R channels in order to reduce the amount of C signal in the L/R speakers. This is another way of saying the L speaker has L-xR and the R speaker has R-xL, where x is some scale factor. If x=1, the you have passive surround in L/R, but the speakers are opposite phase."  

It is over my head a bit but it appears that the center channel is not a simple summed mono and that all three front main channels are processed via the designer's proprietary algebraic formula.   What has heretofore steered me clear of this processor is that Bongiorno states your best speaker must be the center channel.  

With matched pairs of ERRs, that might not be a problem, at least for music.  Three (L CTR, RT) with the SST Trinaural Processor may be a big improvement over 2 CH, but deriving four or five (movies, multi-channel) out of two is probably too much to ask.

For someone like me who is interested in multi-channel music, the availability today of discreet channel formats is likely the better route to go; for someone interested in staying in the analog domain, the Trinaural Processor or Meridian's Trifield processor might make one re-think "Stereo" only.  

So much equipment, so little time (and money).


While you might not be interested, per se, I thought I would return the favor, in Spades, I guess, since it is a fair amount of reading I am giving you but if anyone else is interested, the links below are a good follow-up to the link you provided above.

Some links:

http://www.ampzilla2000.com/trinaural.htmlhttp://www.ampzilla2000.com/trinaural_manual.html

http://www.ampzilla2000.com/trinaural_manual.html

http://www.ampzilla2000.com/sedonaskysoundreview2.html

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=67462.0

http://www.stereophile.com/musicintheround/304round/index.html

http://www.stereophile.com/musicintheround/904music/index.html

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?rprea&1144721220&read&keyw&zztrinaur...

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?bhome&1076773766&openfrom&1&...

mac5u,

If the center speaker is the same as your front L/R, it is the "best" speaker even though they are equal. "Better" would make it something more. In every trade show that I'm aware of, SST has used 3 identical speakers across the front.

There are quite a few companies that make their center speakers with basically the same drivers as their floorstanding speakers, perhaps with the exception of the size of the woofer(s).
3-way center speakers with a vertical tweeter/midrange (even when paired with same company/voicing 2-way L/R) make a dramatic improvement over WTW horizontal 2-way center speakers IME.
Of course if it is possible to have 3 large floorstanders across the front.......

Considering the forum we are on I assume that if individuals are serious about their multi-channel system they are not going to mate a $200 or less center channel with high quality L/R speakers.

Lin

I have it, a custom speaker made of plexiglass, so only the drivers block the screen.

Lin

Pale Rider,
Here is the nearst theater to you that I could find for sale.
http://www.redding-real-estate.com/LargePhotoPages/cascade-theater-redding.html

And I am looking hard at the Trinaural Processor. It is very interesting, all-analog, and can be integrated into a multi-channel HT setup. The question is, do I have the right kind of speakers for this, or are the ERRs all wrong for this appoach, or maybe I already have all the imaging I need. Probably the only way to find out is to try them and make sure I have return privileges.

Hey mac5u, good to hear from you again. The Trinaural Processor remains interesting to me, but I need to find a way to audition it or be able to return it.

The Ultra, the Toriis, and ERRs remain wonderful and just seem to get better. Lately, I have done much more 2-channel listening with the PerfectWave DAC. But probably 2-3 times per week, we either watch BluRay or play a surround disc.  The sound is just amazing. Even without subs, six ERRs can pump out some serious sound. I am having some subs built using the Rhythmik subs and GR Research amps in downfiring cabinets designed to closely resemble the ERRs.

In addition to looking at the Trinaural, I am considering the DBQX processor. I think it could have a significant impact on my system. We shall see.

Hello to all,

If you have a cable box hooked up in any system, this could be the most important thing you can do for a purer sound.

A cable box commonly will introduce some degree of hum into a system, and will completely ruin your listening experience. This may be why some avoid having a cable box in the same system as their higher-end components, since cable box hum can literally spread to those components like a disease.  But why does this happen?

In my system I had a hum that drove me nuts.  The hum was present with input from both my cable box and my bluray player (but not from an iPod), all going through a decware switchbox.  

** What was really weird was that even when the bluray player was NOT PLUGGED IN it still sent hum to the amp! **

I didn't know the source of hum until I realized there was probably a difference between the input cable ground potential and the AC ground potential.

I finally figured out that the hum from the unplugged bluray player was actually from the cable box, because the hum from the cable box went via HDMI to the flat screen, and then from the flat screen via HDMI to the bluray player, and then from the bluray player via analog cables to the amp. Tricky.

Then after some internet searching I discovered the ISO-MAX VRD-1FF Cable TV Ground Isolator, made by Jensen Transformers.

It is a small ground potential matching device that attaches to the cable itself, and it works wonders.  It's not that expensive for what it does (about $60 as I recall), and all you do is put this little bit of magic between the input cable and the cable box and it automagically eliminates the hum.  What a HUGE difference when the hum goes away.

Unfortunately, the ISO-MAX does NOT work with a satellite-based cable system - it only works with standard cable.

In general, I would say if you have a cable box the ISO-MAX is a MUST in any non-satellite system, even if there isn't a noticeable hum, and whatever else you have in the system. A very low, minor hum your ears will hear but your mind may not notice, and this can distract a lot more than you may realize; kind of like the sound of a refrigerator at a distance that you don't notice, until it goes off.  Then all of a sudden your ears say, "Ahhhhhh...".  

After the ISO-MAX, my ears said "Ahhhhhhh...".  And it's not really a quantifiable thing - it's more a "feeling" of depth and clarity, more of a "punch" that wasn't there before.  It's hard to describe. And it sounds like more power now from those two little watts.

And my flat screen looks better too, clearer and sharper with more depth, since AC hum is not going into it.

Thanks, and happy listening,

Gary

Decware SE84C+ (with cce)
Decware switchbox
EVS modified Sony BDP-S570 blu-ray player
Audio Nirvana 15" Alnico full-range drivers in open baffles
Home-made speaker cables from Belden top line CAT5 cable
Paul Speltz Zero Anti-ICs

Over in RoyMercer's man cave thread, I mentioned I have also decided to try a DEQX Mate in my system. My first focus will be the 2.2 part of the system, but am hoping I can get some benefit from it in the 5.2 part as well.