Thanks Will, that helps.  Interesting about the Tungsol.  My GZ32 are NOS CV593 (Brit. Mil.) and I did pay - it hurt, but not as much as Uncle Kevs Philips.  I'll look for a Tungsol on the cheap, if only to try, my curiosity is peaked.

Regarding the Carbon Casts, that was my only gripe - powered up, a little too in your face.  They seemed to settle enough for me and do have a certain intriguing character, if not totally honest, somehow they do seem to give me the illusion of the real thing.  I think that I could make them work except for...

I don't know if I'll work with ERR's long enough once I get the Omegas and not having an amp now complicates things.  So this might be a loose end for quite a while.

Turns out I ordered the first pair of Omegas. Kind of silly to be exited about that at my age.

Will,
Ever tried a 5Y3GT in the CSP3?  Some posted that they use a 5Y3 in the CSP and the GZ2 in the Select.

JOMAN, I can't believe you dropped that kind of coin without ever listening to Omega speakers. Holy smokes! But all I can say is I am 100% certain you will not be disappointed. My first experience hearing Omega speakers changed my entire perspective on audio, and it was just a couple of years ago. That listening session precipitated an entire move into SET. I read Steve's email a few weeks ago about the SUPER3HO XRS when they first launched and I was initially excited until I saw the price. Just too rich for my blood. From memory, I believe it is similar to Louis' other Outlaw models, with at least one Alnico driver. I do know Omega people are very active on Audio Circle and there is some great info there. You are a very lucky audiophile!

Additional note about the Mullar GZ32/CV593 - in the recitifer thread it is rated down a ways, but the review is excellent. States it sounds similar to the GEC U52, which is my dream tube! Now I've got to get a Mullard GZ32!

doukhobar,

I did say that I was a little psychotic, didn't I.  Not really.  

I've been at this since 1975. 21 at the time.  I've owned speakers at twice that price and had lengthy exposure to speakers in the 6 figure bracket.  Likewise with systems.  The ones that I owned were all auditioned before I bought only to be unhappy over time.

The conclusion that I came to is that auditioning in anything but your own space over a period of time that allows components to burn in is of little value.  

After awhile you begin to get a sense for what you are happy with. I spent the last 5 plus years testing this by buying preowned components without any auditioning and found that I could do better than auditioning first.  Also by buying preowned I could resell and often break even or in some cases come out ahead.

I am now determined to make this my last series of purchases and focus entirely on music.  After lengthy conversations with Steve and testing I came to the point that I was ready to by new again.

Turned out that I picked up a CSP3 pre owned by coincidence, a new ZDSD, and on Steves recommendation I found HD800's preowned... and the results were better, way better, than the results of anything that I had auditioned prior to purchasing.

That gave me the confidence to buy the final links in the chain prior to auditioning.

Now look at a couple of examples:

Sen. HD800:  New about $1,800.00.  I bought a pristine pair for $700.00.  I could try them in my own space with my components and if I did't like the result I could resell for $800.00.

New Omegas $2,295.00:  Try in my own space. If it's a no go I can return for a restocking of 10% plus freight here and back.  How can I go wrong?  Most audiophiles will loose 50% of the purchase price if they are not happy.
If the Omegas are even close to Steve's informal review, then, IMO they are a bargain.

The Zen Select:  Steve says try it.  If it doesn't work by another Zen amp for the difference and keep listening until the replacement is ready to ship.  Talk about an offer you can't refuse.

This may not work for everyone.  But it certainly has for me and your comments about the Omegas tell me that I probably will not be disappointed.

Thanks

Regarding rectifiers: years ago Will's comments about them made me seek out "coke bottle shaped" rectifiers and Now I can hardly live without them. They have a finesse that straight-shouldered, big or small, don't seem to in my machines.

For years I have been running what were purported to be 'forties RCA 5V4 bottle shaped RCAs in my Torii and like the porridge Goldilocks decided on I found them just right, with the right balance of warmth and detail and imaging for the other tubes in my amp. But when my latest component, the PS Audio PerfectWave Memory Player, was brand new I just was not getting the tonal balance I was before and I experimented with tubes and found that putting a pair of bottle-shaped Silvania 5U4 rectifiers gave me a return to the sound I wanted. As the component broke in (I don't know why a transport would have such a dramatic break in cycle, but this did) the sound became nicely detailed with an air open midrange and a tight bass. But with a lot of seasoning some recordings seems just a bit clinical and I wondered what I could do. I remembered the RCA 5V4s and put this in in place of the Sylvania. . . and wow, not only is the clinical emphasis defeated but there's more spaciousness and the only trade off is a bit of high end detail and clarity, which has in fact made the sound more "real" to me and less Hi-fi-like. So I haven't used the GZ32 type but it's American cousin the 5V4 is a really good choice for the Torii Mk III.

I don't have access to the capacitors in my HR-1s but those that Bob selected for me seem to be doing a fine job. I have had to go back to the Mundorf Supreme resistors as one of the leads to the Duelund Standard Carbon-Silvers came loose from the resistor due to  near-daily wire unfastening and fastening caused by my need to move the speakers to suit my wife. I have another pair of Duelunds on back order and they should come into stock zoon (I hope). I'm happy with the Mundorf but there's an immediacy that I miss from the Duelund sound.

Hey JD,

Never know, the 3.3/3.9 thing may be your friend? Hope they sound good with some burnin. A lot of room for tuning with bypasses too!

The VTs will change a lot...They will richen, becoming more spacious, complex and deeper. Don't forget to try them both directions, with the line toward the speaker ground, and with it toward the hot speaker wire. One way or the other will sound better. Not sure how much the directional effect shows once fully burned in, but a big difference here when new, and after a few weeks. I started with mine backwards, the line toward the hot terminal, and they have stayed that way. But I think this was the more open/detailed way, so you may prefer the other....at least for now.

Great to hear they are better backwards! I really like these caps.

The thing Jupiter seems to have over many others is that they actually sound good to start. Then the cooler thing...they get better with time like all the others too, moving into exceptional territory! The natural/warm/smooth conveyance of highly complex detail in space is so amazing once burnt in, it can be heart rending.

Yes they are huge...I had to work a little to get a good connection to the terminals on the HR1s, and support them from below with damping material, being concerned about too much tension on the wires with the weight of the caps!

Just a beginning update. I got some 0.33 Jantzen Superiors, and some 0.33 Audyn True Coppers to try as bypasses for the 3.3 Jupiter VTs. You might remember I was beginning to notice things about Mundorfs that did not become clear until the Jupiters were in, but had been bothering me for some time. It seems Mundorf Supremes (including silver/oils) have a compression factor that contributes to signal density in a way that can feel "off" once noticed. At the same time, they sound pretty "right" in logical ways, but if they do not "feel" right, they are not quite right.

That said, I really did liked the Mundorf Silver/oils bypassing the Jupiters, a really good sound for the most part. But the Audyns, in now, though perhaps very slightly "technical," they have beautiful open flow, no sense of compression, just very open, revealing, and balanced free flow. Good copper foil is something to love, beautifully open and revealing with round, rich and complex musicality. Quite beautiful with the Jupiter VTs.

I had burned the True Coppers and Jantzens in on my FryBaby for 125+ hours, and then in the system for another 30-40, so I expect more from them with more time...some more refinement of fine information and smoothing, but would probably be happy with either of these as is. The coppers have been in for the last five days, and they have really grown on me, becoming more and more emotionally involved.

I will try to do a comparison between the these and the Silver/oils in the next several days.

Wow. That is a pickle. I have an earlier form of ERR and only have two binding posts on the back. . . mine is a different setup and I THINK I could make that work, but don't have the speakers on hand (they're in storage) ....

Solder longer leads on them??

Do you have any old speaker wire laying around? Cut and strip 6" of old speaker wire and solder to the ends.
Go to your local Home Store and buy a cheap $20 soldering iron kit that comes with the solder.
Twist some of the speaker wire around one or both ends and solder it together.
Soldering isn't too hard, heat the iron up and drop some solder on your joint. Let it cool and tape it up. 10 minutes of work and an experience that will last you a lifetime.
In 6 months you will be producing point to point wired amplifiers and world class speakers.
Here is a soldering primer.
https://home-audio.wonderhowto.com/how-to/solder-speaker-lead-wires-298576/

I really doubt that 6" of wire is going to screw anything up. Think about the miles of crappy wire between your wall receptacle and the generators. It kind of boggles the mind doesn't it.
I just thought of the newest trick thing to do for your stereo.
The company I work for builds giant generator sets that can power whole towns. I need to put one out back behind my shed and power my stereo with it! Just think, clean, unadulterated power without all of the nasty stuff from being hooked up with everyone else's jusk.
Can I borrow a couple of hundred thou?

doukhobar,

What I did was cut some extra wire from resistors that I wasn't using and tightly wrapped it around the capacitor ends and attach it to the binding post.
Worked fine for me.

JD

From my understanding, it is the capacitor value that changes the frequency cut-off. Refer to Will's series of posts above on the subject. The resistor is for attenuation (i.e. a volume control).

doukhobar,

With the caps cradled between what are left and right binding post sets with your setup (where the clarity is now), there may be enough wire to hook them up. With Jupiter VT caps here, I was able to gently bend the wire around evenly to fit into the binding post holes.

But your posts are vertical, and if they fit, the caps are heavy...a lot of stress on the wires if mounted that way. My posts are horizontal on my HR-1s, so nestling the cap between the bottom (speaker wire) posts, and the top cap posts...to support them, I set some Herbie's grundgbuster material on top of the bottom posts, carrying a lot of the weight of the caps. If you can figure out a good way to support your caps from below to relieve stress on the wires, and not set up vibration, maybe you could get listening to the caps while you figure out a better solution. Blue tack on the backs might help short term!

Even though my setup worked as described, the wires were a bit difficult being short, so I did end up soldering on a little piece of 20 gauge pure silver wire I had around. I got an OK mechanical connection by bending the wires with little curved ends, so they looked like mini-sheperd's staff tops...hooked the cap wire loop to the silver wire loop, squeezed the loops together until snug, and soldered with silver solder. I wonder if DIY velcro would work on the back of the cap and between your vertical posts.

May want to try them in both directions. The line on the label is meant to go toward best ground, but with the VTs, they sounded better here with the line toward the positive speaker wire. Whatever way they sound good there, the VTs do sound different based on direction.

Doukhobar,

Sorry I hadn't responded, never saw the question. I did pretty much what Will did nestling it in between with added wire. I've had the ERR's in the closet for a few months but have been itching to take them out again.
Dave nice write up. I agree that these speakers have a lot of options for sound choices with caps and resistors. For people like me with a lacking of engineering/math skills it can be challenging.
Good advice on the forum

JD

I predict your going to love the Miflex copper in oil. The do tend to leak over time. I think it is caused by heat. Not to worry in your application though.

Dom,

Congratulations getting through your exams!

Those first version tinned copper resistors have become my favorites in recent years. They will refine, but what you are getting is close to what you will get. They will mainly get smoother and be better at more delicate information. You did wire them in series rather than parallel to increase resistance, right... the opposite of caps, where parallel increases capacitance. I suspect you will get notably more change from your new KT77s, the GLs also really good new, but more clearly showing burnin improvements with time than those particular resistors, which are surprisingly good after several days.

The Miflex Copper/oils will likely be quite good at first too, but they are big, and will take longer to resolve fully, and have greater improvements... everything refining. So after you get used to what you are hearing from the Duelund resistors, you may want to get on with the program...

Another interesting way to explore what does what, would be to listen with your new resistors for a little while, then bypass the Clarity caps with your Duelund bypasses... and get them going, also needing more time than the resistors to tell their whole tale, but being smaller, and working only a narrow frequency range, not as much time as the Miflex.

Another way to look at learning what does what, is you could put all your new stuff in and get it burning in, and after a few months, pull the bypasses and see what you hear. Then trade back to the Clarities and see what you here. I have little doubt you will be glad you changed.

Technical question for those who are knowledgeable and more experience with resistors.

The stock resistor on my Err is a Xicon 5W 5 ohm.

My new resistor is a Duelund Standard Tinned Copper/Graphite 5W 1.5 ohm.  

I know that the resistor is for attenuation, but how does the sound change and what is taking place with keeping the Wattage on the resistor the same, but having a drop in ohms on the resistor value from stock to the aforementioned values that guys are playing with, myself included?  

What I’ve noticed so far in my limited listening time, is that there is an immediate clarity and detail in the instruments.  The treble region is louder by comparison and the horn and keyboard instruments have moved up from center stage to front stage.  Single instruments like the guitar, cello, piano, and saxophone sound like they are right in my living room.  I almost want to say it’s too much of a good thing, but it’s really too early to tell since I haven’t explored complex music, and have yet to do vocals and rock.  

After reading this thread up until now, the consensus was to stay with the 5W resistors, but this is not absolute.  Based on what Joman was hearing, he was at 1.64 ohms on his resistor value.  He indicated that when he went to 1.80 and over 2… it was a no go on the sound with a loss in dynamics.  I am currently at 1.5 ohms on the resistor value.

I know this is a new journey I am playing with, so I’m just trying to get a better understanding on how the values play a part with the change in sound.  I know experimentation is the key, just like tube rolling, so I’m going to be patient.

This thread has been invaluable for me thus far, so I’m looking to further the knowledge base for inquiring minds and for future owners who may want to journey down this interesting and complex path.  

I plan to give ZYGI a call to pick his brain. I have a few old saved email exchanges with him on the this topic, so I’m going to copy and paste them here for documentation.  

Dom

Also, I can't remember, do your ERs have adjustable tweeters... if so, have you played with a little different angle on them... turning them up a little to make a little more diffuse/less focussed higher frequency sound.

Will,

Thank you for the heads up on the resistors at Parts Connexion.  I did grab the last two Deulund 2.5 ohm in the 10W, as well as two cheap Jantzen ceramic resistors…a 1.8 and a 2 ohm in the 5 watt just to see the difference.  

One thing I did do today that helped was to back off the gain on my ZBIT 2 clicks.  With the Torii I usually run the ZBIT at full blast.   I also began tweaking the ZROCK2 and it helped to balance out the frequency a bit.  

My Err’s do have the pivotal tweeters, and they have been already positioned to accommodate my listening chair.  I do have them on platforms that I built, but I will revisit their positions just to be certain.  

Tomorrow I’m going to add the Duelunds bypass caps to the Clarity caps and work on breaking them in. It will be interesting to hear what that small value does.  

 I just pulled a nice piece of Baltic Birch from the garage. Tomorrow I want to cut them down to size to make the platform to house the big capacitors.  I will start to work on them I over the weekend.  I have some rubber damping material that I’m going to use so they are less prone to vibration from being on the floor.  

Also….there is a black line on the capacitor.  According to the manufacturer, they indicate the following….

The line on the label (at the shorter lead-out end) indicates the outer foil. This should be connected to the point of lowest impedance/signal output / AC end.

Any idea on whether that side should be connected to the positive or negative side of the terminal?


Dom

Hey Will…yes I was referring to the black line on the Miflex capacitors, both the 3.3 and the .47

You were pretty much spot on with everything.  I decided to add the Duelund’s to the Clarity Cap as a starting point to work on burning them in.  It has really opened up the sound and added clarity.  The forcefulness of the high region that initially showed itself with adding the resistors is still there just not as edgy.  Sadly I only got a chance to listen for like 15 minutes due to other commitments, but the amp has been running for like 6 hours now.  I’ll give a more detailed report later on.  I didn’t expect the Duelund bypass to have such a profound effect. One thing is for sure…it has transformed the Clarity cap from a from an underdog to a contender.  

I haven’t soldered anything for close to two years, so I was a bit out of practice. But the helping hands and the copper heat sink claws were a necessity.  I added a bit of clear museum gel to the capacitors to help take some strain off the wires leads.  

Question… at what temperature do you solder capacitors at.  This was a first time soldering anything so delicate.  A quick search online said like 600-650 degrees Fahrenheit…so I went with like 625 on my Haikko.  I was using Cardas flux and Cardas silver solder Quad Eutectic.

In the meantime…I cut out the platforms that are going house the big Miflex and the smaller bypass caps.  I’ll work on getting those mounted and then soldered over the weekend.  Those I am going to really take my time  since those are going to be a more permanent fixture.  The crossover boxes will not be made right away.  I’m not entirely sure if I want to build a separate crossover box with wire leads going from the box to the terminals on the speaker; or make new speaker platforms that have an interior shelf to house the capacitor platform.

On a separate note…I now see these Err’s in a whole new light.  I can see the potential for these speakers to really dial in the sound not only to my liking, but more importantly for my room acoustics.  I am already dealing with an imperfect setup with a glass window on the left side at the first reflection point, and an open right side that blends into my kitchen at the other first reflection point….with 14 foot ceilings. I have a mess so to speak.  But…my 2024 summer project is to build portable room panels that I can carry into the break front to close off the living room from the kitchen.  

Anyway…here are a few more pictures of todays journey.

John,

Thanks.  I pretty much performed the task as you described.  I first added a dab of flux on both of the bare wire leads with a toothpick.  Then I added the heat sink alligator clips on both sides of the solder joint location.  Iron was pre tinned.  Then I placed the iron onto the wires to heat them up.  After the smoke started to rise, I added the solder.  One mistake I probably did make was that i may have left the iron on the wires a tad longer than necessary.  I had the iron on the joint as I was adding the solder. The last thing I wanted was to have a cold joint.  The alligator clips were fairly warm and capacitors were a bit warm as well.  I’m sure I’m fine but like I mentioned…I never soldered something so delicate.  I normally just solder thicker gauge wires for home or car use.  I then cleaned up the joint with 99% pure alcohol on a q-tip.

This was good practice since the Clarity caps are eventually going to get replaced with the Miflex caps.  I’ll eventually remove the Duelund cap and give that a try with the Miflex caps to see where it takes the sound. One thing for certain…I was very impressed with what the Duelund cap did for the sound…and they are not even broken in yet.  

I have a larger value single resistor coming, so it will be interesting to see where that goes.  Before I solder the two Miflex capacitors together… I think I’m going to take some cheap 16 gauge speaker wire, wind them together, and run some practice sessions.  

It’s cold out here in the North East…so today is a cleanup day, football day, and audio day.  More to come.

Happy Listening

Dom

Will,

I’m going to try 600 the next time…but 625 wasn’t bad.  I used the heat drain clips just to be on the safe side since this was my first time soldering expensive components.  

I would rather not solder the 3.3 and the .47 for now.  What kind of clips are you using to make the temporary connection to allow you to evaluate the caps?  I remember seeing a pic of your caps with these little clips on them.  Can you send me a link to where you got them from?  

In regards to the platforms…..yes I going to use 18 gauge DH labs silver lead wire to got from the 3.3 caps up to the speaker terminals. I didn’t get a chance to check with Bob yet for a wiring scheme, but I like the idea of using jumpers.

In terms of wiring….I just thought of running one wire lead going from the 3.3 capacitor to the top left terminal on the speaker ( when the current Clarity cap is housed) and then the other wire lead going from 3.3 capacitor with the think black line, to the lower left terminal on the speaker.  

The platforms are solid, made up of 3/4 inch Baltic Birch.  I’m going to place rubber feet in each of the four corners.  I also plan to place small isolation feet on the bottom of the capacitors that are on the platform.  

Dom

Quote:


Yes that does make sense.  I did read it a few times to make sure I was tracking it correctly.  Thanks for the link on the clips…I just ordered  them.  That will definitely work out well once I get the capacitors mounted up to the platforms.  

I’ll hit up Bob to see what he says.  Speaking of Bob….I’m going to attach a couple of emails he sent me years ago in regards to my speakers and capacitor info.  That way others with these speakers can be well informed.


Email #1 From Bob…


Anyway, I've never had the pleasure to listen to any of the Arizona caps. So I can't say one way or the other which way to go.

This past year I've sunk a lot of money into caps for the new version HR's. One thing I can tell you is even though you might think by passing the primary cap you are getting pre top end air, it's not always the case. Sometimes what you are hearing is phase distortion, making it sound like you are getting something your not. While the original plan sounded good at the time,  I would only go with 1 bypass, .01 That way, I believe, the phase shift is so high it isn't heard, but what it does as it rolls in is heard.

I tried .01 Miflex caps in my HR-v2"s. Not because I wanted a by pass cap, but because I figured I'd put some hours on the MiFlex's before I installed them in my Torii. I can hear a difference in the top end air, and spacial cues. Which I wasn't expecting. Whether they stay in, is yet to be determined. Steve added a pair of .01 MyFlex caps in a pair of the bookshelf speakers and liked the results he's hearing.

Speaking to the guy at I believe it was Sonic Craft, he told me the MiFLex Copper foil was one of the hardest caps to listen to for the  first 1000 hours, but after that, he felt they were the Holy Grail.

Hope this helps...
Bob

First off, any reference I made to the value of the cap should be  .10 not .01. sorry if that confused you in any way.


Email #2

Dominick, No worries on the HR's....

I'm not quite sure what you speak of with the Miflex having a shield on one side. I've never seen it, or did I just miss it?

Shouldn't be too terrible of a job, your caps are external, no?

And, yes, the bypass cap should be soldered to the cap they are bypassing. I'm not so sure, i would want to though.

I actually by passed my main caps in my HR's. Not to by necessarily to by pass the cap, but to break in the caps before I installed them in my Torii. Never expecting to hear them at all, I was wrong. You can  hear them.

After speaking with several others in the audio world, they are telling my, what you are hearing is the time smear, or distortion from the different value caps being so far apart. I did pull them out of the speakers.

I'd try the Miflex on there own and then add the Dueland. if it were me.


Email #3

In regards to the black strip on the capacitor, it makes more of a difference with tube amps, but the strip goes towards the amp. With Decware amps, I'd doubt it would matter.

3.9 has been standard since day one, except for a shport time when we used a difference HiVi tweeter. I like that tweeter better in the ERR's but they change it (cosmetically, so they say) and ruined it.

Bob