Interesting responses from Bob. The phase shift is problematic in crossovers for mutible drivers in speakers among other inherent issues. My sensitivity to phase shift moved me over to single driver designs.
Like Will, I seldom use heat sinks when soldering. It just creates more area to heat, so takes longer. Save the use of heat sinks for IC joints and special circumstances where something might melt(like plastic) near the joint to be soldered.
Dom, you ain't kidding because it is damn cold with 6" snow on the ground here in the eastern Pittsburgh suburbs. Spent a couple of hours yesterday cleaning the driveway. After that it was cleaning LPs then nesting in to a listening session. Kind of look forward to this time of year and happy to know it is only for a short couple of months!
Enjoy the adventure!
John

Will,

I like the idea of those white, orange, and black compression connection banks.  It definitely makes it easy to sway out connections on the fly.  Both of the Miflex capacitors were expensive.  I would like to safeguard their condition without soldering them right now until I know that they will be permanent.  I’m sure at least the 3.3 ( and most likely the .47) will be the foundation and stay in long term.  With the Duelund….I’ll have to experiment whether I like them in as a second bypass cap or just stick with the .47 as the primary bypass cap.  

This was just a quick response….I’ll go into more detail later.

Dom

Thanks for sharing your experience with bypass caps Will. From my point of view,  bypass caps do not change timing or add smear. The initial insertion of the cap being bypassed causes smear. The bypass cap added in parallel charges/discharges at the same rate. The bypass strengthens higher frequencies by addition, combining certain frequencies easily attracted on the opposing end of the bypass circuit. The certain frequencies combined with the full boat from the initial cap can and does lower the noise floor by upping the strength of the higher frequencies.

John

Sounds good. But beware, cap explorations can be a real labyrinth. Lucking you are starting with what to me is some of the cream of the crop, for which there are not many that fit in there at semi-reasonable prices anyway. Though Miflex Copper/Oils (KPCU) get pretty costly as they get bigger, smaller values are reasonable, and Duelund's larger values are wildly costly.

I was thinking that I mostly talked last post about bypassing without much reference to actual caps. That list is too long, but I thought maybe I should put it in context with a few more cap examples.

I think it is important to say again that I use a FryBaby to do initial burnin on caps, so I don't experience the sad times of burnin, and in turn, burnin blues do not effect my feeling for a cap as much... With big bodied oil 3.3 Miflex KPALs, it still took quite a while with music to resolve, but with more "standard" Jantzens, Clarities, Mundorfs, etc, 3.3 go pretty fast. And the Miflex KPCUs (and all others I have tried) .33 down, the caps get pretty good in a week or so of pretty intense music play.

Personally, at this point, I would probably not buy the particular HTs I have now, 0.1s. It is a really intersting cap, but ultimately a little off-balance on its own, especially compared to the pretty nice balances of Miflex KPCU, or KFPM (copper without oil).

After HTs, and before I ever heard of Miflex, I went to Jupiter Coppers for coupling caps, also really good but not quite ideal. The coppers are more evenly balanced, smoother, yet still very resolving...more neutral and coherent across the spectrum, though to me a little darkish... and they too have some of that Jupiter beeswax soft bottom. Who knows, I might like the darkish tone if it were faster in those darkish zones. But I am being critical, and they are both nice caps. And the HTs I think have continued to work for me in the blends because of being extra airy and resolving mids-up, in my Torii as coupling caps, and now as "mixers" for power supply bypasses, as well as the originals still being in my CSP3, though now bypassed with Miflex KPCUs.



In 2017, Nick at hificollective in England turned me onto Miflex coppers, the first I had heard of them, and KPCU replacing the Jupiters, I was smitten... really good balances, bottom to top, neutral, warmish, and really nicely resolving of harmonic complexity, especially with little bypasses... They have been my coupling caps since.

I did get 0.082s rather than Steve's standard 0.1s though. I wanted to make the sound a little less forceful, more open and less thickish bass... and that was a really good move for me, both the Miflex, and the 18% reduction in capacitance. Around that time I also started mixing the white KFPM Miflex Coppers into the power supplies.

I should mention here that of all the caps I have tried as coupling caps, I also really like VHAudio Odams. Mine are in the lower .09s, so a little more powerful than the Miflex and less than Steve's, and they sound like that, but nicely so. To me, compared to the 0.082 KPCUs, they have a relatively comparable oil sweetening quality with good resolution and space of a little different flavor... a little more articulate and punchy if I am remembering correctly.

I should have tried them on the tweeters, but I think they are all in use in amps.



I also should say that both the Miflex and VHAudios (well really all of others I have tried also) sound better to me with small bypasses. Whether coupling caps or PS bypasses, or on speakers. Seems I always use a small bypass or two to finish the whole with finer space and detail. In amps especially, cheap 0.01- 0.002 Mallory 150s are really good. I don't like them bigger than 0.01, but 0.01 and under are amazingly easy to integrate for me, making the other caps more complete feeling...

On my tweeters, my current favs are Mundorf silver/gold/oil for a warmer/smoother, but resolving "less there" lift, or Duelund Tinned Copper, for a more pronounced space and detail lift, both 0.01s.



Long lead up to how my Jupiters became available for other uses. Having tried the coppers lots of times as bypasses, they never stay in so far. But the HTs have been in my amp a really long time mixed with others. And I don't just mean mixed in parallel... But different power supply positions do different things in the Torii... filtering different tube and parts paths. So bypassing for different positions is a nice tool...By optimizing the bypass caps by sound, and ending up with some variety to do that, the whole becomes more complex and rich with the right combinations.



A cool thing about mixing caps and bypasses, with speakers, and in amps, you can often introduce the sound of a nicer quality cap in notable ways using lower value, less costly caps, making the base caps better with the right combinations... and once you have a nice foundation, different smaller caps for exploration and fine tuning can be fun, especially nice on speakers where you can easily access the tweeter caps, thanks to Bob, like ours.

I have not tried 0.1 HTs or Coppers in my tweeter setup in a long time and should, as they may work really well with the right company. More, I would be interested to see how the small value Jupiter HT and Coppers bypasses are.... like 0.001, 0.01, and 0.022. Being low values, they would be more top oriented, and guessing that may solve some issues I have with their bigger caps.... and compared to Duelund and some of the Mundorfs in that range, they are not brutally expensive. Some of the other Mundorfs have been catching my eye lately to explore for small bypasses too.

My current setup is a Duelund 0.8 Silver resistor; a 3.3 Jantzen Alumin Z-cap, resolving with nice complexity, smooth, slightly warm, and pretty fast and neutral; then a 0.33 Miflex KPCU, with greater harmonic complexity contributing to its particularly seductive Copper/oil "warmth" ... "richer" than the  Jantzen, but they are pretty complimentary in overall sound in this setup. So the Jantzen is a relatively lower cost but quite nice base cap, and the Miflex makes it better. My high bypasses now are a 0.022 Miflex KPCU with a Mundorf 0.01 silver/gold/oil EVO, or a 0.01 Duelund tinned copper.

These conversations are good for me as they remind me to experiment as all else changes, and I will probably pick up a few more caps to try, and play around with other small bypasses and 0.33s I have, and maybe some 0.22s and 0.1s in the place of 0.33s, not having done that in a long time.



But as usual, this is me, and my setup, and not "rules" by any means... Context is everything... Like in my Torii, where several minor veils have been removed, the white KFPM Miflex copper/polys on their own are a little rigid and technical. Listening to them analytically, it is hard to fault them, doing everything well, and once fully burnt in, really good caps, but more forward and coolish than KFCUs.

Context though.... I have upgraded lots of things in my amp, internal cables and connectors alone making everything else more clear. So the characters of all the other parts become more apparent. Whereas, with "stock" cables and connectors, the white Miflex coppers I can imagine being pretty right... clear enough to "cut through" some slight veils... not the same, but for tone shaping, likely somewhat similar to mixing white Miflex with warmer caps, which I do, the Miflex Oils alone in my amps, too warm/slow for me "en masse."

And I think what you experienced Dom likely fits into this, normally running the ZBIT full open with your Torii. In your setup, full ZBIT punch and clarity perhaps made the amp without the ZBIT seem a little slow, or a little darkish, maybe a little dullish by comparison. Whereas, with your new bypass caps and resistors on your tweeters, your initial experiments turning down the ZBIT and the ZRock2 up, helped balance the hot leaning top some... so the new tweeter things changed things that may have originally seemed more associated with the Torii? 

Similarly, my newish 845 amp runs hot, 845s a big powerful tube. So unless I can get it cooler, I would not try Miflex Copper/oils in it. Though the amp is really nicely resolving, in part from 300B and 845 tubes, it was also a bit warmish/darkish/slowish flavored for me after burnin. So my first modifications were using white Miflex Coppers and Mallorys as bypasses on the decent sounding 0.47 and 0.68 coupling caps, and on some of the power supply caps. The KFPMs were really good in improving the speed and space/detail in this context, giving me a baseline to modify further from where I don't hear the minor issues I had when first exploring the cap in the already partially tuned up Torii.

With well placed, but relatively minor modifications, and careful tubing, the 300B/845 is really close now in spectral balance, speeds, and impressive resolution/open space, while having great warmish lucidity. So I look forward to what it can do by resolving speed and transparency further, with a little luck, to where I don't hear "warmth," "immediacy," "resolution," "space" or "musicality" ... the music coming out fully and with ease and grace.



Associated, rounding back to tweeter setups, for now, I have been preferring a pretty low value 0R8 Duelund resistor (louder tweeter), and the more forward and clear Duelund tinned copper bypasses with this amp... "cutting through" the remaining fullness and "warmth" the amp still has for my tastes with gorgeous finesse.

And talk about cool... when things are relatively close, it is amazing to think that a good adjustment, using a little cap and resistor on a resolving tweeter, can effect the whole spectrum, including leading edges and complexity "in the bass!"

Finally made some progress with building the platforms.  The feet were hot glued and the rubber is cut up from 1/2 inch rubber recreational tiles.  They are somewhat soft and seems like they will work well for vibration control.  The capacitors were strapped down with zip ties for added safety because I’m afraid of my cleaning lady, the robotic vaccuum, or my 10 pound hypoallergenic dog hitting them and knocking them over.  This is why the crossover boxes are a necessity.  The future build for the crossover boxes are going to make the out of walnut.  While I’d love to take on the project now, I think it’s best to wait until warmer weather.

I had difficulty stripping my 18 gauge pure silver hook up wire to connect the capacitors to the speakers, and as lead wire to clip on the bypass caps.  So I’m going to temporarily use some braided silver/copper 16 gauge Monster wire in its place.  I’m anticipating they will not be as transparent, and potentially color the sound making it a bit darker.  But this is just so I can start to burn them in.  

I need to get better wire strippers to handle the delicate silver wire.  So tomorrow I’ll clip on the bypass caps with the clips that I bought from Will’s recommendation.  I will get them wired up, and start listening.

Dom

Dom,

You have a lot going on different. And if you have tweeter sound, which I guess you do, the silver wires hooked up to your old cap posts with new caps in between... you are good... but those posts may be wired the reverse of my first guess. If the top left post is wired to the tweeter inside, looks like you have the lines on the Miflex wired toward the plus speaker wire. In my experience, this will give a cleaner and more open cap sound.

Whereas, if the top left posts are reversed from my 1st guess, and the bottom one is wired to the tweeter, I think you are wired for a warmer sound from the Miflex. You could just trade those wires on the top left posts and hear the difference to see... while giving you a real sound choice for now.

Also, you have not only added a lot with your new caps... lots more material that is not burned in. But also you eliminated the Duelund bypass, and you recall what that did for you before. You could clip the Duelunds onto your caps setup and clean things up some, likely making burnin more fun. If you like this better, you could then pull the Duelunds to evaluate with and without sometime later.

Also, you could skip the resistors for now. By "turning up" the tweeter, it might mitigate the deadening from the green caps, and you might find this a better sound for burnin. To arrive at my 0R8 resistors, I had been running I think maybe 1R5s or 2R0, and wanting a little more clarity, 1st I tested a straight silver wire in the place of the resistors... so no resistor. I let that settle a while to adjust, and finally finding it a bit hot, I ended up in between, with a 0R8.

But if you try this, rather than a wire in the place of the resistors, I would just take the resistors off, and wire the lower silver cap lead... the one coming from the line side of your Miflex, to the plus speaker wire post... This would wire the cap setup directly between the speaker wire and the tweeter wire post. It would be the same progression, but it would bypass some posts and wires on the binding post plate... even less in the way of the sound.

And if that makes the tweeter turn off, you know the top left posts are opposite of my guess before... the bottom one wired to the tweeter internally rather than the top one.

Anyway, way to go getting this far, and have fun playing!

Hey Dom. I can imagine the potential for phase issues, especially with "mixing" or larger "bypasses." But I have always gone by what I hear and some caps don't sound good together, but I did not evaluate why... just moved on. And I may not be listening for the right things. When Bob talks about his own evaluations, that would suggest he is listening too I imagine. I wonder, if you get back up with him, if you would ask him what phase distortion and time smearing sound like to him?

Sounds good. I have not looked at this in quite a while online, so I just glanced around and found the same labyrinth that mired me down previously. Another audio "debate" topic as to how this happens, to what degrees, and how audible these things are. I am also guessing it can be quite variable depending on parts and crossover designs, speaker designs, rooms, etc., perhaps contributing to the "debate."  I will spend more time with it when I get a chance.

This is in part why I fall back to what I hear, a "language" I can understand and believe. So I would love to hear what Bob hears. He has talked with me in the past about phase concerns with changing values and bypasses, so wondering about his thoughts now, some years later, as well as what he listens for... if he is up for it and has some time.

Will,

Just got this text from Bob ….

I doubt any recording tools I would have would even show the difference.
Like I said, it sounds like you’re getting a little bit more on the very top end. Higher extending highs, and it’s that more that is actually the distortion. There are times, I still think it’s better, but those that can measure way better than I have convinced me it’s bad!

Question is, just how bad is it, and do you like it, and can live with it. Everything is a compromise at best!

Dom, Having the Frybaby, I don't have experience doing big speaker caps without. But once I put them into the system, I figure burning in caps optimally is probably playing them more or less as usual, "exercising" the caps with various loudness levels, and a lot of play. I don't know how effective it is, but for accelerating the process, I seem to remember the idea that even very quiet levels, barely on (like overnight), will keep things going... and if using this method, combined with a lot of regular play... leave the music off for a couple hours once or twice every 24 to let the caps settle. Something like that makes some sense to me.

I thought I remembered you had a solid state amp still. That will make the first several hundred hours burnin go a lot faster I hope. Nice you are able to get to a lot of these things you have been thinking about. I am doing similar...digging in on a bunch of things, and it feels good!

I look forward to coming impressions.

I think you will hear the duelunds lower than the mids. That touch of increased clarity in a really narrow bandwidth contributes to what we hear in most areas of what we tend to relate to as other parts of the balance, that is, if the system is relatively resolving and balanced to begin with.

I was working with a freind on a low cost but quite good sounding system and we tested some of the stuff here. Not sure how far you want to go, but we got lucky with the following.

S.M.S.L A300 HiFi Power Amplifier

Douk Audio HiFi Vacuum Tube 7-Band EQ Preamp Equalizer XLR Pre-Amplifier Home (T8 PRO)

We tested these without my CSP3, or ZRock2, but using my frontend (including ZBIT), cables and speakers/room. We did some relatively low key EQ adjustments with both components to make it sound "right" in my room, and it was pretty amazing... a bit haywire on a few early digital remasters tending to super clarity, but on almost all things we listened to, it was pretty amazing... with really good balances and resolution, great soundstage...

Yes, with the tube Douk pre, that amp was nice... I can't remember it without as we liked it right away better with that little tube pre. Both to me sounded like the designers were listeners too.

Hard to say on the wires without comparing, but I suspect you are just fine as is.

I have had mixed results with "pure silver" and with "good copper" with "pure silver" coating. But UPOCC, though variable, perhaps as much depending on different teflon variants in dielectric as anything, is a very resolving and fast wire in my experience. With it, copper, silver, or silver plated copper all sound different and have different speeds, warmth, etc.... also the silver plate parameters are different, and solid or stranded, etc... all these effect sound... But the UPOCC I have tried are all good comparatively, regardless of the type of wire.

Your wire sounds like it is DHLab's name for UPOCC copper and when they talk about their pure silver wire, they say it is ultra pure, and they also pay attention to smoothing the surface somehow.... so I guess they are both techy and listening.... making me imagine your wire is quite good without listening to it. The only DHLabs things I have tried are their RCAs, and I found them pretty impressive, quite neutral, transparent and resolving.

I am guessing Bob may have used ±16 gauge wire throughout inside your speakers, but what you have is likely more resolving than what he used (at least the wires I have seen in my HR-1s and MG944s), and if so, I think a smaller gauge of more resolving wire, can compensate some for smaller gauge, and especially on a tweeter, can work quite well. It has been a while, so not positive on the gauge, but I am pretty sure I have 20 gauge Neotech flat (rectangular wire) UPOCC copper/teflon from the speaker cable to tweeters inside, and I liked it quite a bit more than 16/15 gauge tinned copper Supra wire that Bob used at the time I upgraded my HR-1s. The Neotech to me was quite a bit more resolving and fast, and I preferred that. But I changed all my internal wires to be faster and more resolving... which matters... how they match in sound. The Supra wire throughout was more slow/full/rich... more euphonic. Nice, but a bit much for my needs.

And part of that, gauge does matter. All else the same wire, the bigger the gauge, the more powerful and fuller the sound, to a point of thickness/slowness on the too big side, and thinness on the too small gauge side.

Anyway, since we are talking about the tweeter, a narrow frequency range comparatively, I can imagine you are just fine with that shortish run of 20 gauge single crystal copper and silver coated wire. No way to know for sure if you would benefit toward whatever you prefer unless you try something else, but I suspect the wire you have is good. 14 gauge, the next size up of the same wire quality, is a lot more wire... so hard to say.

For the 0.47 cap, I guess it may be a little less than 16 gauge technically, the twist having some space compared to stranded or solid copper. And the DHLabs, though smaller gauge, it is probably nicer wire in all ways, so if you have some left, or cut a little off your cap-speaker leads to lengthen the 0.47 lead, it would probably work quite well. I use uninsulated 20 gauge UPOCC silver, or soft annealed 4-9s silver for caps because it sounds best to me, and because I have it, but for this short addition, that wire should work well... Direct comparisons would show smallish differences, but I would not worry about it at this point. And who knows, you might prefer the wire you have in this case. Stranded silver plated copper tends to be a little more bright and "sparkly" sounding than generally smoother and very resolving solid UPOCC silver.... And the bird in hand sort of thing, especially since that DHLabs wire sounds like it is pretty nice wire.

John, Remember we tried the Douk with the chip amp, and were impressed with the sound together, for what they cost especially, value a criteria, and ruling out Decware and other popular "audiophile" things. It was fast and furious, finding and trying stuff in a tight frame of time, but bought on Amazon, didn't seem like a big risk. As I recall, the stuff green, neither the internal amp EQ, or the Douk EQ seemed truly great for larger adjustments, especially for the first several days. I recall the amp EQ as very clean, and pre rounder/warmer. Together with smaller Qs in each, it seemed quite useful, but we did not do critical tests on each individually.

We did try a lot of tubes in the Douk, and ended up liking the 6N1Ps that came with it, or different 6N1Ps I had here, overall "the best" considering all balances and across recordings. Also, if interested, I think you can use two sources with the Douk we had, but I think they are separate circuits... the balanced side one, and the RCA side the other... if serious about trying it, I would look around on Utube, but I don't think my friend was able to go in RCA and out balanced for visa versa. He went from some now vintage (I think Japanese) receiver I can't recall, and was able to get sold for 1000, and he loves his new system with decent cables and all running his old ADS 1090 towers. He is a life-long musician just moving into more refined audio with entrancing sound stage, etc.

Will..thanks for you input on the DH labs wire.  I did remove some wire going to my capacitor posts from the platforms, and rewired the bypass caps with the DH labs wire.  Definitely a good call.  

Totally makes sense that the tweeter hookup wire would be a smaller gauge since it’s handling a more narrow frequency in comparison to the main driver.  

Unfortunately didn’t get a chance to do any critical listening yet.  I’m hoping to get time tomorrow.  Tonight I’m going to take apart the Pinnacle speakers to see what inside, and how I want to proceed with replacing the crossover network.  I’ll post more tomorrow.

Well one thing is for certain, my room is not really treated minus a rug on the floor.  With the left side first reflection point being a glass window, and the right side first reflection point being an open Archway that segues into my kitchen, I unfortunately am dealing with an uphill battle.  My long-term plan is to build portable stand alone diffuser panels to seal off The living room from the kitchen for when I want to do critical listening. Eventually we will put nicer drapes up to cover the glass window on the left-hand side.  

I had met up with Kamran yesterday for lunch and we talked a lot about room acoustics.  In the upcoming months we plan to have listening sessions at each other’s houses to hear the differences in our system as well as our rooms. His room is heavily treated unlike mine.  Luckily my speakers are very forgiving with the radial sound, and are a great match for my room due to  lack of room treatment.

So today I am noticing more fullness in the lower bass region.  Not necessarily fat….but more harmonically correct when the piano and the bass are playing simultaneously notes. The past few days I’ve been pushing the Torii pretty hard with watching action movies, watching the Mission Impossible films.  I’ve been off from work this week, so the caps have been getting a nice workout.

Now…..on to a new task at hand where I could definitely use some guidance.  Pulled apart my Pinnalce and got to the crossover network.  Below are a few pictures of the internal PN6 speakers.  

So…where to start.  Besides dealing with crossover board, there is the copper winding.  The one pic is self explanatory.  The black and red on the left side go to the speaker terminals, the yellow and black wires go to tweeter, and the blue and black wires go to the main driver.  

This task is more than just swapping out caps and resistors.  It’s hard to determine how the copper winding is connected to the network.  I’m cool it’s building a new board, and replacing the caps and resistors, but how does the copper winding come into play?  I sure measurements are taken when this crossover was built.  I am working on getting in contact with One of the owners of the company through my wife’s coworker, but since the company is no longer in existence,  it just makes it more difficult.  

Desoldering the board is no big deal, but I could use some help with how to connect and integrate the copper winding to the rest of the network.  

Here’s are pics …

I meant to add that this looks like a simple crossover, and it may even have values marked under the parts and maybe even the paths will show more. Related, if you wanted to make a point to point replacement, you could figure out the signal paths using continuity tests, another process.

Sounds good Dom. As you can imagine... I do have some thoughts I hope might help.

Audyns and Jantzens

I have experimented a fair bit over time with Jantzen Z-caps, as well as Audyn True Coppers and Maxs. In my Torii, 0.10 True Copper Max bypassed various nice 3.3 caps for several years, combined filtering the small VRs and inputs if I remember correctly.

I have also used True Coppers in other places in the power supplies, and in the mix on my speakers for extended periods.

The last time I dug in with them was a few years ago when I wanted to see if I could use the Audyn Coppers as primary tuning caps in the ZRock2, coupling caps and power supply bypasses, which almost worked for me. I could not at the time solve some, to me, rigidity and hardish clarity as fully as I wanted. Might be able to now, but didn't figure it out then.

Today I put in some 0.33 True Coppers in the place of the Miflex Copper Oil 0.33s, along with the 3.3 Jantzen Alumin-Zs on my tweeters, at first leaving off the bypasses.

I think the True Coppers are really good caps, but in my very resolving system, everything shows. And the issues I have consistantly had with these caps are that they are a little "too good" at what the do...They have a dynamic powerful feel, and nicely blend a slightly slow smooth warmth with quite clear balances. And they do this with a very good copper film flavor, that in this case, allows quite dense and smooth harmonics in space. It is just that, to me, on their own, all these traits tend to be just a little too obvious and forward. While not having quite enough very fine detail and higher harmonic information in their balance... altogether, this can equate to being a little too powerful, clear and focussed... so a little hard leaning.


Context

But this could be good in a different setup, or with less clear tweeters, or with more warm leaning setups, or ones that do not have ideal balances, or lacking great bass differentiation, or whatever. And this is just talking about this cap's influence as I hear it, not adjusted, and I have been able to use these caps in ways I love with the right company... so splitting hairs in ways, but I wanted to give you a glimpse of my experience with them.

And importantly, more and more, I realize my system is just different than most... developed with reading the most fragile very fine information and speed before considering all else... and if it is not there, generally, the part does not get used. Then all the other balances, including speeds across the spectrum, of course need to be pretty right, giving a refined foundation of resolution and speeds, no matter the flavor of all the balances as long as they are close...

Not that I "have it," always learning and refining. But room considerations, all cables, feet, all the power pieces, the components, computer/front end... speakers... all have been pretty seriously balanced, individually and collectively into a relatively heightened state. So for the most part, no smeared/muddled bass, instead all notes of all instruments naturally fast and musically differentiated… sounding like the instruments in a good room, with” right" feeling leading edges, textures and decays. And not muddled or too much in the balance, bass is faster, relatively impactful and deep, and generally does not mask the also well resolved mids. When it does leak upward too much though, it can be adjusted with gain tuning, my gain stages also tuned to help each other in ways that adjust speed, clarity, and density. Then the highs, integrated with and supporting mids and the low end, and without apparent smearing, resolution is clearer, showing amazing fine detail and complexity....the higher stuff emerging from open space with no apparent top, while being complex enough to not be hard on most stuff.

It is intersting how, in recent years in particular, with more room tools and nicer components, wires and parts, and combinations of these, how far we can go in refining how easily all the sonic information gets through... and how much more of "whatever" that shows.... But a lot of the habitual ways of designing, and tuning, and hearing, tend to make us think their limitations are still real. What I keep finding, is that we no longer have to be stuck in habitual hifi limitations and doldrums many of us came to consider normal. And as better balances, speed and resolution allow the system to let more information through more completely and musically, we might call it things like revealing or resolving, but that can mean a lot of things to different people depending on our experience and system/room. So it is hard to know how one baseline for evaluation relates to another.

I guess for me, the more I hear things in my system/room others describe differently, the more I realize just how much this setup shows, right down to pretty nuanced qualities... Creating yet another wildcard of a reference for observations and descriptions to come out of.

This is part of why I am always putting what I hear in the context of my experiences, and trying to describe pretty clearly what that sounds like to me... to make it less of a wildcard reference. Not sure how well this clarifies my observations, but something to keep in mind while interpreting them as they might relate to other systems.


In this context, so far, back to back, I have preferred Miflex Copper Oils over Audyn True Coppers, in part because they are clear, but softened a bit with paper and oil, contributing to the harmonics coming off as more complete to me, less overtly dense and clean, more complex and textured.

But the Audyns also have seductive balances and expression, including their smoother, more apparently dense harmonic clarity... also interesting… Splitting hairs, I find them a little slow/full in their warmth, but their clarity cuts through that nicely. And rolling off the very fine stuff a little proportionally… still can sound pretty complete. So these are preference things or things to work with in tuning. I can imagine why some folks love them, and why they rate high on HumbleHomeadeHiFi tests. And I don't totally love Miflex Copper/oils everywhere, or without the right company either, also preferring them with bypasses. It is just that so far, Copper/oils have been easier for me to use to get what I like.

Right now, having played the 0.33 True Coppers for four or five hours, they are waking up some from a long rest, and sounding quite good with Jantzen Alumin-Z 3.3 base caps, which are good at textures and revelation without being hard, but also need a little quality help up high for me... Still, with only the 0.33 True Coppers the sound is nice, the Audyns so clear in what they do, they sound good without bypassing them further...

Small Bypasses

Putting back on the same bypasses I was using before, now the 0.33 Audyn True Coppers replacing the 0.33 MIflex Copper Oils the only change, the increased fine detail and harmonic refinement is welcome for me, making the sound experience feel realer and more alive. Interestingly, with the Audyns flavor of warmth, the bypasses  also brought out more clearly an interesting euphonic effect the Audyns are contributing to. Not sure, it may be a little too "colored" and expressive for me, right now hearing the system and the music, rather than mostly just the music. But with more play time, and time for me to adapt, the things the Audyns bring to the blend may cause me to fall for them again, bringing back good memories of when these caps had been part of the blend for some years.


Jantzen Superiors I have not carefully evaluated for a long time, but I use some 3.3s with Clarity TCs as base caps in the power supply of the Torii and liked that change... I am always trying to musically refine bass with the Torii, and part of that method has become using nicer film caps, which being big, seem to also allow less capacitance while still being good filters. So a double effect can be found with them... a little more refined clarity and speed with good film, and reducing the capacitance a bit in the power supply lets the whole breath a little more, not pressing all the following parts as hard and fully, so reducing forcefulness and thickness. To this end, I was trying a Clarity TC 70uF in the place of a pair of already reduced value 40uF Jenson electrolytics, wired in parallel, combined a 80uF cap. The Clarity, with its more balanced resolution and speed was good, but took reducing capacitance a little too far... it was a little too open and lean. Luckily, adding the Jantzen Superior 3.3s brought it into a pretty nice balance for me, while opening up more space and textures in the quite nice Jantzen Superior ways.

Again my system, but I always find the Superiors pretty complete and balanced in most ways, except being slightly sedate and thin. But this is why I wanted to try them in this power supply position... to beef up the capacitance some with an open, relatively neutral and textural flavor.

Bottom Line???

Long story short, this was all to explain why I think your choice of a 3.9 Jantzen Superior-Zs mixed with a 0.1 Audyn True Copper, could very well create a really nice cap. I think the Audyn will likely beef up the Jantzen some, contributing the Audyn's warmth, open space, and dense clarity and harmonics... while likely helping to musically pull the best out of the Janztens. My guess anyway. And if you ever felt the need for more harmonic complexity, you could try some small bypasses, choosing one(s) that might balance well with the sound the Jantzen and Audyn make together with your speaker.


Pinnacle Plate?

For your cap mounting concerns on the Pinnacle crossover... Since you are looking at binding posts anyway, why not make as minimal a MDF plate as possible that you could mount the current crossover board on, and the new caps, while creating a mounting plate for the new binding posts.

With some really thin gasket material to seal and reduce vibration, cutting a round gasket about 1/2" wide to go around the binding post hole, and strips going around the outside edge of the new plate, it looks like you could screw the plate down to the speaker back. Not sure what Bob uses now for gasket material, but years ago he suggested I try Silly Winks" 9x12x.08 inches sticky back sheets, and they seemed good to me.

On a new plate, I think you could secure your current crossover board with some little corner pieces of double-sided tape. If you turned the board so that the caps "hang down," I think a few small pieces of double sided tape per cap would damp and hold the caps pretty well, especially for your experimental period. This setup would allow pretty easy adjustments of caps and board.

My binding post and crossover plates are bolted in place using this really thin gasket material. And the interior caps and coils are all secured to the plate with pretty minimal, but well placed double sided tape strips. I used the more rubbery seeming gray lined stuff, not the white more clearly foam variety. And my caps are not giant like your 3.3 Miflexs but probably about as heavy as  the Jantzens you are getting, and they have held for years now... I had to use new pieces of tape at times when I changed some of the parts, but pretty nice for flexibility.


ERRs

Finally, thinking about your Miflex burnin and sound. It may be that the foam or rubber material you used for damping, holding the caps in place, and feet for the cap shelves, is pretty transparent... But based on my experiences, that would be a pretty strong stroke of luck, as damping seems a lot easier to get wrong than right, potentially being dulling and slowing the sound in odd ways, especially with bigger pieces of damping material.

It might be worth a test. Like cut some little feet from a 2x2, and make some just large enough ply board pieces to put the caps on. I am imagining a tripod foot arrangement using the 1.5x1.5x1.5 feet. Then maybe cut something like two layers of cotton rag (tee shirt thickness) to place under the caps, and perhaps one layer between feet and board... It would be interesting to see what a much less damped, but slightly damped arrangement does for the sound. Not finished or glued, this could sound better, while being an easy platform for experimenting with different feet and damping that is not stuck down.

That sounds like a pretty good solution for pulling the cap. You should probably pick up a nice solder sucker... it makes it easier by pulling the solder out, leaving the cap joint less connected, so pulling easier with a little back and forth heating.

I can't really tell from these pics, but can you see trace layers, or how the solder joints connect to the main traces? If you can see some of this, if you pulled all the stuff off off one, you may be able to figure the path  out more definitively.

And you can get pretty cheap meters now that measure inductance if you want to explore options there after pulling and measuring this one.

Something you may be able to figure out with the light as is... I am thinking that the resistors might have the traces setup so they are wired in series... so maybe a 17 ohm resistor on the cap/tweeter?

Does your meter have a capacitance setting? Have you checked the cap?

I had a similar problem with partconnexion's new site a few months ago. It said the Miflex caps I wanted were in stock and ran the checkout, and then, the next day or two, I got the dreaded email... dreaded because I was excited about the project and had to wait a long time to get them. I find the new site unintuitive and difficult to use also. Finally, I figured out that if I click on the partconnexion panel at the top of the pages, then go to parts and components, then, say caps, then "by Brand," at least the different company's caps show up in value order.

Maybe you won't need the resistors with the Miflex replacing the Clarities. And I wonder about getting them in several months, those resistors I believe having been discontinued.

If you think you need them, looks like HiFiColletive still has some 2.4s and 2.5s. Good people to deal with I find, and nice selection of stuff that ships pretty fast considering it is from England.

Will,

The Audyn’s did sound like it would work nicely in my setup.  The frequency balance of my Pinnacles is a bit off in the midrange.  These speakers always had good bass and nice highs, but the midrange was muddled.  I’m wondering in the tuned bass port is a contributing factor.  I’ve read that some have plugged up the bass port which helped.  That is something I’ll explore going forward.  

You mentioned that the Audyn’s were almost “too good” at what they do.  In your resolving system I can see how that could be too much of a good thing.  With my system not as resolving as yours, especially with these speakers, maybe it will really work nicely as a bypass to clean things up with better separation, but I’ll just have to see how that plays out.  

Seems like you really like the Jentzens, and for good reason.  What I read makes me feel that they will be a very good base cap for these speakers.  Your experience with them, as well is other reviews with guys with tube amps, gives me insight that they will be a good fit.  

I do have the .01 Duelunds that I could always try out out to add into the mix as a secondary bypass. But I’ll have to see where the Duelunds offer a better fit and it’s trade off, since the Err’s are my main speakers.  

Good idea on adding the binding posts to the Err crossover platforms.           I do plan to play with the feet, because the material I wanted to use I ran out of.   Doing a triangle configuration is worth exploring.  I have that on my CSP2+ 25th and really like it.  In terms of holding down the capacitors with the rubber material, it’s fairly light and more of an open foam as opposed to a closed foam.  But definitely worth experimenting.  

Dom

Dom,

Yes...light foam, rubber, in between, official audio feet attempts, official damping material attempts, high cost and low cost.... I find lots of vibration mitigating tools work in some ways... But lots can work pretty poorly. They draw, transfer, absorb and dissipate vibrations differently, with different frequency imbalances.... So we try to find ones that do the unbalanced stuff less, or that do it in ways that makes the sound better to us. But the other side is most common... that they help and hurt. and I am guessing that both of those materials could be hurting to some degree, and overall, may not be helping the sound. But I may be wrong... thus the idea of a cheap and easy test of a similar minimal setup without much damping as a starting point for comparison.

I always hope I make sense in my posts, but maybe not. I thought I was talking about the binding posts option as part of a plate for your Pinnacles that would hold the boards and new caps, while allowing nicer posts to be integrated on the same plate.

Sorry about the confusion I created from putting the ERR topic head in the wrong place, and followed by saying ERRs when Pinnacles were in my mind... Geez!.... I was too tired when I posted I guess... !@#$%^&

I would not quite say I "really like" the Superiors or the Audyns, both compared to many others, quite good in many ways...but in this pretty tuned setup, the things I don't ideally prefer with each, are "off" enough to make them a little challenging to integrate (but doable). To me, in the right places... both can be nice. That said, I have not had an Audyn stay in my system for a long time. But playing with them again now, and hoping. As things are setup now for pretty open, they show their intensity, but compelling for sure.

And I have only one position the Superiors fit really well and without effort. But I have not worked hard on using them in part because I have had others that have integrated easier for various needs. That said, as I suspect you found in your reading, Groovysauce's experience is not uncommon... the Superior a good base cap!

For what you are wanting to do, I am hoping that the things I find a bit "off" on each, might compensate for each other, hopefully each complimenting one another in that use.

Will,

Sounds like your tests have really brought about some nice results, and a few surprises.  I just received my Jantzens and Audyn’s this afternoon.  The Jantzen’s are not small by no means.  Going to need to find a board and a way to mount them near the the PCB board.  This is going to take a bit of time and some figuring out.    

I’ll post some pics later on.

Dom

So today I was able to spend a chunk of the day on my speakers.  I felt that adding an additional board  as we discussed to keep everything together was the way to go.  I decided to use some left over white marine board that’s used for mounting dashboard gauges.  It wasn’t my first choice, but wanted to get things moving along.  I cut up 2 pieces, each 6x2.5 inches.

When it came to soldering, the holes in the PCB  board were too small to run wire through, so I just filled in the hole on the underside, and soldered the Jantzen’s  wires to a small bead of solder.  I was able to figure out the signal path, at least to the capacitor, because the Audyn’s are directional. I used a small piece of self adhesive foam to go between the board and the capacitors.  Next up we’re the Audyn’s which were easier to maneuver and work with.  I didn’t use the copper solder heat sink clips this time out, and just made sure to work quicker and everything was fine.

So I then screwed the PCB board to the new white board.  To make things easier going forward, especially with working in a tight spot, I opted to velcro the white board to the back of the speaker cabinet.  Now I can just pull the board out when I need to.

So now I hooked them up to my fully modded Zen SE84C+ Amp, since I’m using the Torii to listen to the ERR’s.

First off…these are not the same speakers from before. The muddled midrange is now gone, and there is a nice clarity throughout the frequency range.  This was my biggest complaint, and I attribute it to the Jantzen’s.  The music is more fluid and more pleasing to listen to.

Now the Audyn’s…I understand what you mean by forcefulness.  The speed and attack in the treble region is very forward and bold.  It’s honest in its presentation, and right now it’s a bit too much.  Although it does refine the highs,  making it sound better than before, I’m not sure how it’s going to play out.  

I’ll post more on the sound tomorrow, but here are a few more pics.

I forgot to mention that I added a dab of that museum gel in between the two caps.   It actually helped keep the two caps stable and together while I was soldering.   I feel that it can help with vibration going from one capacitor to the other….at least in theory.  It’s sorta like the same clear gel like material that they use on the back of new credit cards when they ship them to a new card holder.

Oh..BTW…I had also received with my Parts Connexion order a pair of cheap 1.8 and a 2.5 cement resistors to use with my Err’s, just to see what it sounds like with the higher values.  My Duelund Resistors from HIFi Collective will be here one day next week I’m guessing.  

Not sure what I’m going to do with that spare crossover I ordered from eBay,  I was originally going to use it to dissect  and see if I could get away with taking each part of the crossover apart, and build a new board and wire each piece separately.  But now I’m thinking that I could just keep it to use it for an A/B comparison to hear where the sound goes.  

You mentioned that the caps right now are going to be sharp and concentrated.  Sharp is definitely a great way to put it.   Both sets of speakers are going to get a good amount of play time this weekend.   With the CSP having 2 sets of outputs, I may just run them at same time just for burn in purposes.  Sound wise…it’s going to be weird, since they are on opposite ends of the room and the sound will be colliding with each other.

One thing is for certain, the investment in the capacitors for the Pinnacles was worth it.  Plus this capacitor exploration is really engaging.  I’m glad I’ve embarked on this journey.