Let me suggest the ERRs, the Torii Mark III, the fully-modded ZCD (or a similar source, I love my Sony ES 5400 SACD player better), and a CSP2 for pre-amplification. and source switching (if you are going to run Blu-Ray, etc.) The ERRs and the Torii are a killer combination.  The CSP2 adds icing to the cake.

This may be a bit over your budget, but you'll be happy about it.

Knowing what I know now, I'd do this. . . somehow.

If I had to scrimp I'd drop the CSP2 (though it's all better with it) and move to the Integrated (a fine amp, but the ERRs will love the Torii more especially on Sabbath; I'd really like to go for the new III but I have a II and can't afford a III), and look for a really nice used cd player somewhere, like a NAD universal player, etc. that will come in cheaper than the ZCD.  Get Decware cables and interconnects, might as well get those right the first time.

You'll need to add one later. No Decware amplification includes a phono stage.  

Start saving a few more thousand for your vinyl.  I personally have resisted the urge for several decades now.

Shipping would probably be . . . 140 maybe?  Sarah or Steve can give you a good idea.

If you can . . . get all the mods on the ZCD. They made a difference on mine, getting it almost up there as my best source.

I don't have any experience with a min-Torii, and I have an Integrated in my bedroom system that I use every day, and used in the main system before I got the Torii Mark II, so I KNOW the Integrated and know how wonderful an amp it is.  The Mini-Torii looks like a great amp for a compact system and looks like a tube-roller's dream, but tube rolling is really something that drove me crazy in the past and I'm steering clear of lately. Also, I love the EL34 tube in guitar and audio amps and the Integrated uses these to great effect.

To me analog and vinyl are two different beasts and I find that if I great a system to one, it doesn't fare as well with the other.  One day I may set up a vinyl system but I haven't felt the need with 12000 plus cds, and most of my vinyl also in cd form.

OK here goes!
njs, I have a pair of MG944's set up with a 1st generation Decware Integrated running on a single set of EL34's only about 3.5 watts.
Read this thread first.
https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1258399932

I also have a pair of what has become known as "IT" Radials or the "retail" version of a Decware radial. That is what Lon has as well. That speaker has a front firing midbass driver like on the MG944, the same tweeter and with a radial driver on top. These are "unobtainium" at least for the short term. The ERR is a very similar speaker and is a bit more laid back than the MG944 or My radials, however it does do the same spacious imaging that the Decware radials are known for, and given your room size which we do not know yet, the ERR would not NEED the TORII MkIII power necessarily. The current Integrated is 6 watts and so is the Mini TORII. I have a Mini TORII coming in a week or two.

At this point I'd ask you what type of sound you like. More laid back and relaxed in the mid range and highs or more forward?

The MG is not a forward speaker but it is not as relaxed as the ERR.
Auditioning both at Decware the Mini TORII SEX had a magic with all the speakers that was undeniable. With the MG944's it was super good. With the ERR radials it was laid back however the big room at Decware with it's high ceilings offer a different load to the speaker. Here at home radial speakers with 8.5 foot ceilings are loading the room with plenty of bass and the imaging is to die for. The MG944 does not present as large of an image but the speaker projects into the room better and bass is different. Better? Not sure. Placement is everything. I've already said I'd like to try a set of ERR's. Just too many other things to do.

My advice is get the amp that makes the best of all the subtleties, yet has the some diversity power wise. The MkIII is a great amp I'm sure. I heard the Mini TORII with MG944, various sets of Radials, the HDT's and other non-Decware speakers. I told Steve I wanted one on the spot. It is coming soon! can't wait. Second choice would be The SE34I.2 Integrated. A little less complex than the Mini but still 6 watts.

Now back to my Integrated running at 3.5 watts per (single) output tube. VERY MUCH like the current Integrated. Steve informed me yesterday they would sound very much alike. Well with the MG944's I've not hard clipped it at ALL. Loud sweet and BIG sounding. Detailed and imaging that is precise. I have no doubts about MG944 speakers. They are entry level price but they are not entry level sound. Pricing also reflects complexity of build and parts cost so naturally the ERR is more expensive. My vote is you go simple and get your feet wet first.

MG944,
Mini TORII SEX
or
SE34I.2
ZCD (the NEW one if you need a CD player
CSP 2 Preamp
or
ZenHead if you have an iPod

Don't laugh iPod is blowing me away. Why ??? Just is.

Get an iPod touch if you have enough left.

Which you Should.

Before I posted I had the iPod on the CSP2 with my integrated (remember 3.5 watts only for mine) on the MG944's and had Pink Floyd "Sheep", Ten Years After "I'd love to change the world", Floyd again from The Wall "One Of My Turns", Steve Miller Band "Take the Money and Run" playing one after the other on Pandora Radio.
Not one bit of stress or strain on the Integrated. Loud, big, beautiful!!!
I have every reason to expect same out of Mini TORII.

The got on the "Stan Getz & Luiz Bonfa" channel for a little saxophone and bossa nova. Ike Quebec "Favela" came on. Whoa! Right away a live 3d sound. Will it do Coltrane, Miles, Parker? Amen bro.

It is more forward than the radials but that room has more hard surface the room the Radials are in, here on the other side of the house in a much more cluttered living room.

The MG944 has almost no crossover. Louder than my particular Radials (not much) with all else being equal (amp and such)
The CSP2 ads weight and dynamics. And Gain control pushes the amp just that much harder but with so much control.

I'd bet that just a Mini TORII and MG944's alone would be a good start.

I'll know first hand in a week or two!!!! Count down to Mini

Hope this helps nsj!

Decware (Steve) has never let me down. His stuff sound "right", real and your doing yourself a favor getting any of his amps. You got to hear it for yourself.

Chris and DD,

Wow, this is great information; exactly the type that I was hoping for. Chris, if you missed it, my living room, which has a lot of modern furniture which is non-negotiable in terms of placement is:

20' x 20' with an 11' sloped ceiling. It is also open to the rest of the house (another 1600 square feet). The room has a wood ceiling, wood floor, one glass wall, 2 sheet rock walls and a 4th wall of brick fireplace.

My initial thought was that the ERR might do a better, and less placement-determined, job given the space - any thoughts?

I am not going to tell you guys what system Steve suggested until I make a final decision...let's just say that Chris is on to something!

In terms of sound, I believe that I would probably fall into the "laid back" category. And yes, the $4K is to cover a CD source, speakers, amp, cables, shipping etc. (the whole shooting match).

I do have an ipod, but, I was hoping that Steve might someday come out with a Decware version of the Tascam CD-200I, which has a built-in ipod dock. Does anyone know whether this might happen?

Duhhh!
Sorry missed the room size. See I'm so stoked up I'm like a kid in a candy store!
Whoa all hard surfaces. Can you say echo?
Obviously Steve's recommendation is considering this so I'm gonna defer.

Here is one of my rooms with adjoining open space. I have carpet in all but kitchen.
All 8' 4" ceilings. Lots of open space for bass energy to escape.
I need treatments for midrange in both rooms. I think you will to NSJ!

The other living room has different layout but is open to kitchen on both sides as well and the dining area is not to the side but to the back so it is like a very long room.

You and the wife should shop for some nice wall hangings that are absorptive in nature. It is Christmas you know? Oops you budgeted all $4K for system!

Yes, the ERRs will serve you well with cheaper cables, and then bring you even more when you can afford the ZenStyx.

The Zen Styx are a fine cable but they are not user friendly in one respect. They are thick twisted strands of silver plated copper. They are stiffer than a pressurized garden hose. Don't get me wrong I like em. Don't have em but they are nice.

Speaker cable is the last cable I would be fussy about. I mean you shouldn't use 15 foot runs of Home Depot 18 gauge though. Steve may disagree with me one this one I don't know. Interconnects are a real revelation. They all sound different. They have different capacitance (how they are wound and covered) and different metal (silver, copper, combination.) and therefore really do things to the highs and the soundstage. It's only dramatic sometimes and usually A,B direct comparison is the way to pinpoint those differences. I'm going to recommend that you keep your speaker runs as short as possible. 5 feet runs get your speakers 8 feet apart max. with sag. How much for the Zen Styx? How Long? With spreading banana connectors installed? Must have nice locking connectors for a tight connection.

ERR may be a better speaker in many ways. Will it serve all types of music the same? don't know. I imagine I will have a pair here at some point in time. This is tough call. MG944 has BALLS and finesse. ERR with rock & roll? Might be good just cannot say for sure. I know that whatever Steve ships to you in your price envelope whatever you decide on you simply will not be disappointed. There is a 30 day trial?

Other than you listening to all the stuff at someone's house, you've got to take the plunge. It's very little risk and you are in great hands.

FWIW I have two pair of Decware silver reference interconnects and I like them and use them regularly.

Chris,

I have $169 budgeted for the interconnects. I have 2 proposed setups for the living room, which I will need to review with my better half...the room is not ideal for hifi, but, as I said previously a lot of it is non-negotiable.

I still have not heard back from Steve on this question, but, here are the systems that I and Steve envisioned:

nsj newbie: Zen Taboo $895, ZP3 Phono Stage $795, ERR speakers $1395, ZCD $799 = $4053 + Shipping (a bit over budget no speaker cables or interconnects)

Steve: Mini Torii $1395, MG944 speakers $995, ZCD $799, Interconnects $169, 10' Zen Styx $350 = $3708 + Shipping (a bit under budget no phono stage)

Interesting huh?

ZP3 Is a statement piece. I've not pursued records since it takes a lot more than an excellent phono pre Like the ZP3. I don't know what entry level encompasses as far as turntable, cartridge, and arm. You might run it past Steve what you have available. A great phono stage like the ZP3 deserves a decent source that gets at least a passing grade. In my world it is a big commitment to have a permanent, dialed in vinyl installation. I don't want to discourage you but at this point I know if you get your hands on some good digital copies of your favorite oldies, your gonna hear it like you never heard it before. The Mini TORII is a GREAT amp. I have not given the TABOO a chance. Why? Don't know. It has sounded good to me at Decware. It has been finicky. You must remember that the Mini is a newer product. Steve's endorsement of it is on top of a lot of other current owners and those of us who heard it at DecFest. If you really want the truth I'm scratching up the $hange to get it. I have to have it in the house!!! I'll sell something later if I have to. It sounded that good at the show. And with the MG944 it made music.

I'm gonna say that what you have left in the budget is not allowing for vinyl with certainty of results. Maybe the ZP3 can "polish a turd". Steve would only know that answer.
I love the CSP2 but I don't think the Mini NEEEDs the pre. If you want to blow the whole "kitty" do the digital with what Steve has recommended and get a ZenHead as a pre so you can listen reasonably to iPod. if not save the $300 go under budget get the Styx and try your hand at some home brew cable and do a comparison. Hey it can't hurt.

Pivotal selections are amp & speakers. Amp is KING. MG are good. Really good. They work together. RivieraRanch here on the forums has both. I will have both soon. It's only money!

Quote:


I may as well answer this here as it would help future customers faced with similar choices.   I got your second email but also got 84 other ones today and only got about 1/2 way through the stack...  story of my life

Anyway, the logic behind my system recommendation was to keep you under your budget with everything you would need short of a phono stage.  

I am concerned about your room as it's obviously going to be bright sounding, and yes, ERR's might be a better fit for such a space.  However the Mini Torii has a treble control that can be used to tame any brightness that your room adds, so it should sound fine.  I also figured that when you get in the mood to really rock out if you find the mini torii lacks power, we can step you up to the TORII MK III so long as it happens by Jan 15th, and still stay dangerously close to your budget.  

The mini torii will drive the ERR's very nicely, but the MG944's will be more efficient from the listening chair.  I believe that couple dB difference could be the difference between upgrading to a bigger amp or not.

Your suggestion of the Taboo is no problem at all until we get involved with a phono stage.  The taboo likes 3 t o 5 volts at the inputs to really get with the program.  The ZCD offers that.  Most CD players are 2 volts.  The phono stage at best will be 2 volts meaning that in order to really enjoy LP's you'll get sucked into purchasing a preamp.

If it were me, I would probably buy the ERR's and the TORII MKIII and use an IPOD or whatever source you can get your hands on until such a time you can add a ZCD or Phono stage or both.  But, I was really trying to honor your budget.  

Interconnects and speaker cables are indeed important but I believe any of these systems would sound better using Radio Shack cables than most other hi-end systems would while using exotic cables, so I wouldn't feel immediate pressure to get the cables right away.

Steve

Steve,

Awesome, thanks for the reply! I need some time to digest all of your wisdom and get back to you, but, we DO have a large CD collection, so the ZCD will stay on the shopping list. We are just beginning to get into the Ipod scene. As a segue, what did you think about my idea about the Tascam CD-200i? Perhaps there is not enough room left in the chassis to make your Decware mods?

Chris, I've heard my share of speakers and owned my share; I have three pairs sitting idle and may have another when the ERRs arrive in the future.

But all the speakers I had before the Radials I wanted to sound like the Radials and didn't. They sounded great HIFI, but the Radials sound natural and real to me.  They fill a room with sound the way a small club is filled by a band.  They have totally corrupted me and I've since listened to some really fine speakrs but they don't do for me and my music what the Radials do.

I often listen to tapes I recorded, live to two track analog, in my garage apartment wtih two bands that I played with in the 'eighties.  The Radials bring that playing space back out of the past. Nothing has ever done that the way that they do. And with my SACD player, CSP2 and Torii Mark II in the path it's amazing sound.  Never sounded this good in this room before.  I got together a few weeks ago with the guitarist/songwriter in one of the bands and we listened to some of the tapes now on cdr.  He was amazed.  He asked me to start another band with him. THAT'S not going to happen, but I am going to think "Radial" whenever I think "speaker." Amazing designs and execution from Steve and Bob.  In my opinion perhaps their crowning glory.

I still don't understand iPod in a main system unless using a Wadia setup to extract the digital signal. But then I'm surrounded by cds everywhere and I use the iPod in the bedroom with the Wadia dock mainly so that Anadina and I can recline for a few hours and not worry about touching the system.  I guess I could put the DEC changer in that system, but then the iPod would gather dust, only being used infrequently out of the house.  I have spent a few decades learning to love the sound of cds and they're my source, mainly because I'm obsessed with jazz and there are thousands of thousands of sessions I won't ever find or afford on vinyl available affordably on cd.

Anyway, after living with Radials and smaller amps for a while, I am just amazed at the ease and layers of texture the Torii brings to the sound.  I think they're the best thing to drive these designs unless you are in a very small listening room (I was in one for a long time).  The size of nsj's room, I think he would be BEST served by the Torii.  I just sort of wish someone could get it right the first time!  I sure couldn't/didn't. That would make me happy!

BTW once your hooked there's no turning back.

This has been very helpful for me guys, as well as fun. So no one likes my last idea:

Mini Torii $1395, NFX speakers $1495, ZCD $799, Interconnects $169, = $3858 (within budget, using budget speaker cables as Steve intimates, vinyl later)

Would the very high efficiency of the NFX satisfy the need for volume on occasion, without a larger amp upgrade?

nsj,

If you're still looking at speaker cables relative to your budget, I'd throw Clear Day Cables Solid Core 8ft silver single cables into the mix.  At $120 a pair  shipped ($150-20% plus free shipping) these cables are stunning in clarity and extension.I think its about $10 each additional foot..  I have them, plus a 1 meter pair of ICs terminated with Eichmanns made form the same materil.

ZenCDUser,

Thanks for that tip on speaker cables, I will definitely take a look at them!

Opny_bafld,

You don't seem baffled to me, in fact, that is the exact same response that Steve gave me via email:

Hi Neil,

The NFX would take care of any worries about upgrading amps, yes.  You would probably end up adding a subwoofer to them to pick up the bottom octave.

- Steve Deckert

Anyway, adding a subwoofer can certainly be done for less than $900, i.e. the NFX is $100 more, but, the Mini Torii is $1000 less, total delta being $900...

Hi Rivieraranch,

I'm glad that you guys are excited, you have all been very helpful (as has Steve).

I see that the MG944's have very deep bass response, besting the radials and the NFX's. I will spend some time looking at your posts.

I would prefer to do this right the first time as Lon mentioned earlier...

Wow, Parker has given you two good offers here and I really like his plan.

Parker, have you TRIED a preamp in between the ZCD and the Torii?  I have a CSP2 in the system in that slot (well, now it's in between the Sony ES SACD player and the Torii, but my fully modded ZCD has been in the same slot). There is a fullness and a tonal sollidity (don't know how else to say that) which justifies it being there.

Two thumbs up!

Ah, let's hijack the thread.

I've never found the perfect settings for the ZCD period in my system, it's always just a bit too forward for my situation, but I find it works best for me when the output is down, about the standard 2V or so.

But the CSP2 shines with the Torii for me when it's WIDE OPEN, full gain.  This setting on the CSP2 and my Sony SCD-XA5400ES SACD/CD player really shines.  Heft and weight and realism that surpasses the Torii without the CSP2, for me and my room. That's what I recommend trying, turn the gain on the CSP2 all the way up.  The Torii likes it that way.  I THINK it's adding some compression, but that seems to make cds more like lps to me.  Anyway, I've been running the system this way a few weeks and enjoying it a lot.

oops, I meant "wait a while"...

A photo that Bob sent me of the IT Radials, hope it shows up.