I recently received the ZROCK3.  I already use a ZROCK2 and I love what that does to the music.  I have a 2nd source so I originally purchased a ZROCK2 but was updated at the last minute to a ZROCK3.

I am trying to get a hang of the Output Level Control.  It is that knob at the back that I wish was at the front.  So far, I can't get the ZROCK3 to sound as good as the ZROCK2.  Maybe the ZROCK3 needs to burn in a bit longer.

I mess with the Output Level Control and sometimes it seems to thin out the sound.  I don't know why.  That's my perception.  

So, I turn up the OLC and turn down the amp's volume, or I turn down the OLC and turn up the amp's volume.  As it is, I still don't know the OLC purpose or how I would ever use it.

My question is: how do I set the Output Level Control to match what the ZROCK2 did which didn't have an Output Level Control?  Do I just turn it up all the way and be done with it?  What are the concerns with turning the OLC all the way, if any?

Any input would be appreciated.

Reading over the Sales description and manual, to me, neither make the output knob simple to fully understand. So this is going to be guess work, only having experience with a ZR2.

For figuring out how to make the ZR3 match the ZR2 though, the following might be a good pointer from the Manual talking about the front knob: "From the 50% mark, which is unity gain, the ZROCK3 begins to make gain. Into a 100K impedance you can expect around 6dB through the mid band frequencies."

The Sales page talking about the output knob: "It allows you to adjust the ZROCK3 from below unity gain to 6dB above unity to work with any upstream component." Then the question becomes, does this output knob add more gain, or is a passive adjuster for the ±6dB from the front gain setting? I am guessing the latter, in part since both are talking about 6 dB of potential, but definitely a guess.

If this is right, the front ZR2 knob unity setting working like the ZR3 front knob, I am imagining your ZR2 output might be equal to the ZR3 output knob wide open...

You could test this by starting with your ZR2 set to sound best to you, and the system set for a pleasing volume...and get a good feel for the volume on a familiar track. Then put the ZR3 in where you had the ZR2, all else the same, the EQ switch set the same, and ideally using the same ZR2 tube, as well as the front ZR3 pot as close visually as possible to how the ZR2 was set. Then adjust the output level on the ZR3 so it sounds about like the ZR2 did... guessing the output will be wide open ....maybe....but I suppose straight up being unity could have logic to it if the output knob is active rather than passive.

From the Sales page: "The output level control on the ZROCK3 is basically like an input gain control for your amplifier
or preamp. It makes it possible to run a ZROCK3 directly into a power amp that has no gain control and get the output from the ZROCK3 adjusted to your liking."

Staying with the same idea of the back pot being passive, then the output control would be for reducing the output voltage from the ZR3 if you are getting too much voltage/volume with it turned all the way up into a given amp or pre. And different sources would effect this also, so the adjustability to match source to amp seems to be an objective. If the optimal range with the front knob adjusted for favored EQ/sound gives too much volume, you could balance that by turning the output down as needed so that the front knob volume-wise feels right while in your fav range for sound.

Or, as I imagine it in my experience, when I put several pre-stages between the source and amp, the ways they add up with voltage hit and the power of transients, can lead to earlier distortions than with less gain stages in sequence. So I am imagining the output level adjusted down a touch, might help mitigate this, while reducing signal noise if present, and still having roughly the same EQ/tube settings on the front.

But I also suspect like 1stwatt, that this output setting would adjust sonic qualities more than just volume when adjusting voltage going into something else... also changing lucidity, dynamics, weight, etc.

Finally, seems the Toroidal transformer and whatever else was needed to get it to work well, and possibly other modifications with the ZR3, will have effects on the sound too, beyond burnin probably contributing to confusion..... Still, like most Decware settings, it is probably finally a matter of tastes and system matching within reason. But if your ZR2 was all good, and you match the ZR3 to be the same more-or-less on the front, and the output to put out about the same volume, seems like a good start for burnin.

Sorry for all the speculation... but not many coming forward on this one, so thought I would try to puzzle it out enough to help going forward, hopefully...

Hey Tone-Deaf.

It will be good to hear people's perceptions when more folks have these ZR3s in hand, but kind of a fun mind puzzle in the meantime.

Assuming we are right that the output is passive, and wide open would pass on the front settings with max signal power, then basically the output knob is an output reduction tool. It does seem the primary reasons for it are for integrating the ZR3 signal power (volume) with the stage before and after it, while also minimizing noise potential.

Then thinking about what is being reduced by turning down the output, I was figuring voltage... reducing the signal power.

Which takes me to my love of "gain tuning." With the Decware pre-stages I have used between source and tube amps, voltage increases or decreases change that signal's intensity before the next thing along with volume...And more voltage gives the signal an increase in density, dynamics, lucidity, weight... and less voltage, the opposite.... So along with the sonic characters whatever stage brings, higher voltage increases volume and the sonic characters that come with more signal power.

An example closest to this might be a ZBIT which is passive... where the voltage wide open is the balanced out DAC voltage, and turning the ZBIT down reduces the voltage. Somewhere in there, optimal sound is usually found by reducing the signal intensity from max to the best sounding point. So I guess this is not technically a gain stage except that the DAC's balanced out is higher voltage than single ended out, and the ZBIT allows us to start with the higher voltage... Then by reducing that voltage to a point, you still have greater voltage net than running the DAC without the ZBIT. And the ZBIT does do all the voltage related sound things... more "gain" being more dense, dynamic, clear, powerful... makes me imagine the ZR3 output could be considered for sound shaping as well as "volume" tuning.

So the front settings do seem to be more-or-less like those on the ZR2, the switch defining the EQ curve, and the gain knob adjusting the intensity of that curve and signal voltage/volume. Then, if using the output knob for decreasing the volume of that sonic balance, I am thinking it will reduce the voltage/signal power too with associated sound shifts from toning down signal intensity... . It is a mind bender for me, but guessing this is the case.

Jay, I think that your ZROCK3 may need more time to "season" to sound as good as the ZROCK2 that you have had in use. Do you have the same caps installed in each? I had a similar experience between two ZROCK2s that I had in play, when I got the second identically set-up one in the system while the original was back at the mother ship,  it took about a month before I stopped thinking about its own sound.

I'm glad 1stwatt has weighed in as I think he and Jay are the only two on the board that can speak with authority from experience with the ZROCK3. I think that 1stwatt and Will have analyzed this well. I think I will have fun with the ZROCK3 when mine arrives--since I no longer have and need a preamp in the system, another way to add to gain-riding will be another fine-tuning tool to have fun with.

Hello, Will.  

In the spirit of a "mind puzzle," your comment reminded me of another observation from the ZROCK3 manual that I wanted to share, and I think may be related to "gain tuning."

My recollection of the ZROCK2 manual was that it suggested that the front know might best be adjusted to about 1:00 to 3:00, while the ZROCK3 manual seems to suggest adjustments from 1:00 to about 5:00 (i.e., "wide open") can be made.  

With my Zrock2, I find myself sometimes going past 3:00 to get a bigger bass boost, but then using another component to dial back the total voltage (right now, I am listening with the front knob at about 4:00, but with a low output from a ZSTAGE that is in front of the ZROCK2).  I think that may be similar to one way that the "output" knob might be used on the ZROCK3.

Hi, Will.  Thanks for your comments!

The Zstage is a relatively new addition.  I tend to like a "leaner" presentation, and recently I have generally run my amp (Decware SE34I.5) at a relatively high level (maybe 70 to 80 percent of "full volume), adjust the ZROCK2 to get the bass level I like, and then use the Zstage to adjust the volume.  A "typical" ZROCK2 setting for me is at about 1:30 to 2:30, but I do go higher on the ZROCK2 if the bass seems too soft to me.

I am still getting my head around having three gain sources (hence all my interest in how the ZROCK3 works).  From my reading on this site (and particularly posts by you and Lon), I can see intellectually how the three gain sources might be used, but it is going to take me some time to figure out how to use them together more effectively in actual practice!