In my Toriis, once I tried them, instead of 5U4G-STs mostly, I generally preferred Philips made ST coke bottle shaped GZ32 and used variations for years. My fav here was a Mazda with double bottom rectangle getters, the cleanest of the ST shapes I tried but also fast, smooth and resolving. The same shaped Mullards I have are warmer, and Philips Holland closer to the Mullards, but in between. In my already warmish setup, I liked the Mazdas better, less noticeable as to the tube having a sound here anyway. But in another leaner setup, the Mullards would likely be better.

I got tighter/faster bass with 5V4 or GZ32 over 5U4s also, making it sound like it brought bass up, but I am pretty sure they actually bring the bass down enough to speed it up and let it "breath" more space. My theory is that the 5U4s tended toward a little too much bass in my setting, making them tend thicker/fuller and shifting the balance to darker/slower overall. And I think the GZ32s or 5V4s are faster and tighter by nature, with more sense of space, but being a little less powered up, less bass also. So if the system is a little thick/dark, the resolution seems better with the milder faster tubes, in part because they do not push the other tubes as hard. This "push" is throughout the way I hear it, but if the bass is close to muddle in a system/room, and the rectifier goes a little too far, the extra bass push seems most noticeable because it gets so full it falls into being less resolved... too thick.

I feel pretty confident I have corroborated this theory in this system/room with experimenting with other tubes, the bassier, more powerful choices often exciting room modes more, or just plain being a little full dark in my amp, and for my tastes. If I use a little cleaner/less powerful tube (like nice PCC88s or nice ECC88 variants in the place of E88CC) the milder push conveys across the spectrum... less powerful/forceful, less concentrated,  but again, even with inputs, the bass, if it is off, can tend to show easier if it is closer to those subtle edges of good speed and resolution, and getting a little overwhelming...

Liking bass that is naturally full, but also tightish and textured (no masking really).... when something is little too much, fullness can start to slide into variations of muddle and/or boom, while the darker tone balance leaks darkness and fullness into the mids.

Cables also... I have found variations, but generally, if a power cable of a given design and materials is too big, it seems to bring with it a sort of compression that slows, darkens, and thickens the whole. And if I back it off a little gauge wise, it opens a little and I find the beauty balance. Same with ICs and speaker cables for me.

Personally the RCA 5V4s (coke bottle ST shape) I tried, I think '52, were a little dark/slow/warm for me. But I found GE and Sylvania fat bottles on the too clean side. Again, my system, but the latter worked a little better. The rectifier being so influential on all else, the RCA was not ideal for my setup and needs. Whereas the Sylvania fat bottles being quite clean but smoother and a little less super clean than the GE fat bottles, I could warm them up with other tubes and have the clarity and speed I wanted, with other tubes warming the whole up enough that the fat bottles were not too much. In another leaner system, I suppose I could prefer the RCAs ???

Whereas, the clean Mazda GZ32s were fast and resolving, and not overly dark or overly clear here, so I used them for a long time...

Later I got into some specific 4 volt Euro tubes like AZ11s, or RGN-1064s, these types having the same electrical values but different pinouts and adaptors... but out on a limb, having high cap ratings, but being 4 volt and the amp set up for 5. I used them without many issues for more years than the GZ32s... a lower sense of power, but very musically resolving tubes, so not in the face, and not missing anything here especially since I almost always prefer a little less bass balanced rectifiers here. That said, to me they have a pretty close resemblance overall to the Mazda GZ32, but better resolution to me... more fine detail in open space. The nice ones are really well made older tubes... a lot from the 30s and Telefunken or variants, straight bottle and globes, or Philips Holland globes... some of them with solid plates, and some mesh. I have no idea about recommending these though... I have never heard from anyone who really knows if there are any issues except the possibility of the mesh plates frying with more voltage than rated... but I don't think that happened in my amp but one or two times, and am not sure with these old tubes, perhaps some more vulnerable for other reasons and the voltage pushing them a little too hard as well??? And I did pick up a bunch of them over time as good deals came up, so was rolling them. But I think some of them stayed in for a few years... So I can only say I really like the sound here, and it may be in part because the Torii IV and HR-1s seemed innately a little bass heavy in the balance, for me anyway, and before I opened them up some. But even then I still tend to prefer this tube type, and have for a really long time.

A caution if you go for GZ32s, I am not positive, but think it was some of the earlier ST shaped Philips-made tubes that had a different cathodes setup, with narrow tubes and vulnerable cathodes. I got some Telefunkens and Darios with narrow cathodes tubes before I knew better, and both sounded great for a bit, but fried pretty quickly. I have not seen Mullards this way, but don't know if there were any, and most GZ32 I have seen in the past did not have the really narrow cathode design. But the thing to do is avoid those ones with the really small diameter cathode tubes. I am putting up a picture. It is a little hard to see the tops of the cathode tubes coming through the top mica, especially the little ones on the right hand Dario, versus the bigger ones on the left hand Mullard. I would avoid the ones like the right one.

Not sure as I have not tried a lot, but the few fat bottle Philips GZ32s I have are on the cleaner sounding side of STs, even cleaner than the Mazda STs some. And the Brimar STs, to me were obviously really nice tubes, but more intense... more consolidated, which did not appeal as much back when I tried them. It might now, and it might in your amp though. Anyway, hope this helps.

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The 50s versions of 5C4S ST shapes I have are nice clean and dynamic tubes.... not off the top in any way, but nicely open and fast, and out of the way... sort of a nice foundation for the other tubes. I have not tried the straight bottle versions. I got a lot of 8 I think with 4 slightly shorter ST bottles, and 4 taller ones from a highly rated seller in the Ukraine I think. I preferred the taller, but can't recall why, and the Torii, which I have used them most in, is not in the system now so I can't compare. In the overall neighborhood of GZ32s, and really inexpensive, so could be worth a try.

Will,

Have you compared a 5C3S to a 5C4S?

I've been using the C3S exclusively for a few years now, and have been happy with em. And for, on average, $35 a pop, a great deal.

Maybe I should try the 5C4S? I assume an adapter is needed to match Decware socket?

James,  I tried the 5Z3 a year or so ago, and I didnt think it bettered the 5C3S. But maybe your source would be worth a try.

Best,

Geno

Thanks James. You da man!

Quote:


Yeah, GZ32 is a different tube from a 5Z4. And like US tube manufacturers, UK companies bought and relabeled each others tubes all the time. Unless you can tell by the construction one needs to dig into the factory codes to know for sure who made what.

Pal,

I've done lots of comparisons to the Sophia Aqua 274B, often checking back in with it to see if I can get it to work better for me than others I tend to use. As you bring it up, I realize I like it better than some RCA 5U4G-STs I have, and maybe comparable to some more open and nuanced ones. But the Sophia does have it own character with compelling balances to me when it fits.

Here, in this warmish, fullish setting, the 5U4G type tends to be a little too full and darkish for me, a little... But in a more open tube setting, exposing the 274B Aqua's dynamics and nuanced inner space and fine detail more, I get it. I guess for me though, something that usually catches my attention here is there tends to be a slight disparity between its nice detail, space, and speed, and the mid/bass down tending a little less fast and defined..softer... That said, I stopped working to make the general type work here a long time ago, probably 10 or more years ago, so have not been working with that baseline... I got away from them when I discovered how well GZ32s worked here by comparison, preferring their less full, more open and speedy feel.

And after that, the 4 volt RGN1064 and variants, in this system/room, still preferring less powered up tubes that are nicely textured with lots of fine detail and space. To me the nice ones are more refined in these critical (to me) areas than the Sophias, and that being a compelling trait from the Sophias when they are opened up enough to show it.

If my setup were a shade or two less bassy and warm, that could be a different story. Like I suspect it might be if I had your SE84UFO-25 and those super clear Lii 10" drivers rather than my Torii and HR-1s. Even though I have opened and sped both up a lot, so far I still appreciate their warmish qualities and have held onto that as a foundation for more open speed and resolution throughout. But then, if I had a little more open system/room, to get more rectifier power, there are a number of more powered up 4 volt Euro tubes that are really nice, and having gotten away with using them a long time in Torii and CSP3 (so far), I might tend that way if I needed more push. But as I said earlier, I can't recommend these, being off-spec, and I have never tried to figure out if there are electronic repercussions, but liking the sound here with my Decware amps.

Interestingly, for some reason the Aqua fits the 300B amp I found better than my Torii or CSP3 for me. Maybe this 300B, and maybe others, like more power push behind their signal better??? showing the big 300B qualities more fully while retaining open complexity... And as I slowly open and speed up the amp internally, the Sophias sound better and better to me. Going gradually with modifications, the amp is almost "there," open and resolving, but still tending a little bass weighted, and slightly slow and full. So depending on the 300B tube, I have used a Fivre 5R4GY, a very open and pretty fast tube that gets little use here unless I need something that open to balance the sound, or some Mullard GZ32s.

As I burn in some Shuguang 300B-Z premiums, the Mullards seem really good. In their new state, these 300Bs are not opened up and refined as I expect they might become, tending a little brash up top, a little restrained...slightly slow/veiled... and the bass a little touch and go, sometimes nicely defined but not fully developed and refined yet. In this case, the solid dynamic speed of the GZ32 going pretty well across the spectrum, with pretty rich and open resolution that is also smooth...contributing to some complex warmth... the sound is pretty beautiful. But once the amp modifications are done though, who knows.... maybe the Sophia will be my choice??? But right now the GZ32s make some green 300Bs that will no doubt develop and refine, sound pretty sweet.

Thanks for the responses.  The aquas are that expensive now?  I guess everything is going up.  

I May give 1-2 a try.  I may have an old RCA around here and a couple others.

I bought the P10s which are likely still breaking in. If anything I may still need to try some tubes to soften things up a bit.

Small update. The bass on the 5V4 getting to me, after paying close attention to it, the overall sound was a bit muddy in the middle. I thought back a week when I tried a Mullard IEC 6DJ8/ECC88 with a RCA 5U4, that pair had little bass and sounded thin. Why not dip chocolate in peanut butter? So last night I the Mullard with the 5V4 and was rewarded with peanut butter cups. Bass was at a better level with no slop. Tight and fast. The highs were very open and less in my face. I did hear some brittle or jagged edges, but it may have been the LP. I may try some of the Russian input tubes tonight.

It really amazes me that you guys can keep all the tube #’s, characteristics, combinations and related thoughts organized. It’s impressive and a wee bit daunting at times. Having dipped toes in other hobbies and ran into “well buy my book and find out” or secret nonsense it’s just refreshing everyone here is respectful and willing to share.

I guess some of us have just been exploring tubes a long time, and with luck get a baseline knowledge of types and individuals as a sort of second nature. Especially since tubes are so much of our sound with these amps, I love learning them, and learning to use them to get the sound more real, across more recordings.

And I am always amazed how they are so alive, and how a bunch of them together, each with given baseline "family" qualities, can show pretty differently individually, and depending on the company they are in... which collectively can make just a few tube types powerful for tuning.

Sean, relative to your recent change, ECC88s in particular show characteristic values, but also seem pretty variable in my setups. Compared to E88CCs, less push giving milder bass and generally more space, decays and textures, some can do this with really good balances, but some can get pretty soft down low, especially without help from other choices.

As I look at it, how much a tube "pushes" the next, is becoming more and more a simplified indicator. If an amp has a rectifier, VRs, an input, then power tubes, even just four types set up a powerful progression of how each influences the rest. In this case, the rectifier "push" and the way it makes the DC influences cleaner or faster, or warmer and slower, more resolved or less, denser or more open signal feel... or whatever... the rectifier starts the progression, it effecting all the rest. So if it is powerfully too pushy, focussed, bassy.... or too lean, bright, hard edged... or whatever, that sets up the rest. Then the VR is next, more or less push, more or less resolution, more or less warmth, its influences are added on top of the rectifier sound, while also influencing the input's sound. And the input sets up the power tubes...

So we can work the sound adjusting any of these one way or another, but the progression, and how much each influences the next... and the next.... seems to be a way to look at it that can be a useful foundational tool...pointing to what I call "the push" as one of the primary "reads" for me.

I have tried the GE 5U4, the Mazda 5Y3, and the famed Mullard 5AR4/GZ34 from the Blackburn factory, but my favorite is my Sophia Electric Aqua 274b.

Good news on the Mazda Liquid Blue.

I didn't mean to necessarily rule out Dario Miniwatts, they can be really nice clear GZ32s as well... it is the small cathode tube models to avoid, not the brand. If you want a variation on the theme, but as I recall, a little clearer than the Mazda, you might keep an eye out for a Dario fat bottle GZ32.

I was liking the Mullard GZ32s the other day in my 300B, and it was pretty amazing with a lot of music. But finally, especially with these warmish/fullish Shuguang 300B-Zs (at least at this stage of burnin) the Mullards were too warm/full for me, hearing the tube too much. Good textured/detailed warmth, just not my thing with this particular setup. Right now I am back to Fivre 5R4GYs (also from Langrex) ... which can be too clear, but sound great with this amp and tubes.

I thought I had answered this question myself, but I cannot find a note of that answer, so I thought I would ask it here:  I am waiting for delivery on a 5Z4G rectifier and need an adapter to use it in a 5U4 location.  Can I assume that my 5Z3 to 5U4 adapter will work, or do I need to order a specific 5Z4 to 5U4 adapter?

Thanks

Hi Will, so in the case of the 5Z4 no adapter is required, just insert it in the socket as I would with the 5U4 rectifier.  Thanks.

All aboard the rationalization train!!! I bought two Mullards, a CV593 (GZ32) and a CV378 (GZ33). I'm only going to live once, I'll never know for sure unless I try, they are popular and in demand so resale shouldn't kill me if I don't like them, I'll use a $100 tube way more than that $100 box set, etc...

That Brimar 5Z4G is still on my radar. Liquid Blue, keep us updated how that one and the Mazda work out for you.

Carried on with some rolling the past few days. I don't like either of my Russian input tubes, one is a Reflector 6H23P and the other is a 6N1P-EV with the rocket. Nether of those had any dynamics for me with the 5V4, really dull. So back in went the Mullard ECC88. Also pulled the RCA 5U4 out of the ZP3 and put a GE 5z3 in there. I didn't expect much honestly, the 5z3 never really excited me. After 10 minutes or so I was starting to think my rationalization train derailed and I didn't need the Mullards. Nice big, full, and open sound, my seat felt right in the middle of it all.

Those GZ33 are challenging to find, although Billington does list them.  Can I assume these would work in Decware amps?

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Yes, they work (great) in Decware amps. The GZ33 is the beefiest 5V rectifier that I know, with higher output current and voltage than either the 5U4/5Z3 or 5AR4/GZ34. In fact it would be a great option for Sarah.

Now, as usual, there are some confusing names. In this case, GZ33, GZ37 and CV378. I don't claim any special authority on this topic, but AFAIK, the difference between the GZ33 and GZ37 is the recommended first power supply capacitor. For the GZ33 it is very large, certainly over 100 uF. For the GZ37 it is 16 uF. Then there is the CV378, which is the UK military designation for one or the other of them, or maybe both. Sources I trust have said both, but I lean towards CV378 = GZ37. For the purposes of Decware amps I don't think the 16 uF matters, but if it is important to you stick with the GZ33.

Regardless, if you're looking to buy these I love Billington, and have been very happy with the tubes I bought from Mullard Magic, and there are plenty of GZ3[3|7]s for sale on Ebay if one is so inclined. I said above the GZ33 is my favorite rectifier, I bought 2 pairs a couple years ago when they weren't as crazy expensive as they are now. I also got a great deal on a pair of the original GZ37/CV378 tube, the "fat bottle" Cossor 53KU that I can't wait to try on the UFO25s, hopefully in the next couple of months. I have 1 "thin bottle" GZ37 that I've used in my headphone amp and like it a lot, but haven't heard it in a Decware amp.

Could these 5Z4GY/CV1863 be used on the UFO2 ?

My tubes from Mullard Magic are sitting at the sort center about 10 miles from me…until Tuesday…no mail Monday. My daughter is in the middle of a softball tournament this weekend which keeps me busy during the wait.

Wow that’s pretty quick LiquidBlue. I saw they had 194 in stock so I figure I have some time before trying the Brimar.

Good stuff Sean. The GZ33 was my all time favorite in the UFOs.

And....

Whoops, I am sorry for stealing this thread.  If I could move it, I would.  I'll create a new one for any future posts on this topic.  Tony