I'm going to be a devil's advocate of a sort as Cryotone tubes aren't my style and I would like to recommend you try a 7308 tube, especially one made in Holland, as the input tube. In all my years with that input position on amps. . . the 7308 is clearly my favorite and go to ever since I moved away from Steve's selected, tested and supplied 6N1P.

Quote:


Not to mention that the tube you use in the ZRock can fairly dramatically change your whole sound.

Tube advice is tricky with so many variables in systems and rooms and synergy.........and tastes! So though there are a lot of nice tubes liked by many, how well each of those fits into each of these complexes, complexes that are all different, is hard to predict. I have quite a few famous tubes loved by many tube heads, the ones that rise to the top overall, that I don't use much or at all because I prefer others in that position in my setting and with my other tube choices. And similar with recommendations from those who know the amp well and have explored a lot of tubes deeply. It is not that these are not good tubes, or that they don't work for me sometimes, just that in the more subtle feel, there may be others, often cheaper ones, I prefer.

When it comes down to it, with revealing tube amps especially (and system/rooms), tubes are literally major players in the sound... And the ways each effect the compliment creates a lot of the sound.

So we try to find tubes to refine a sound that makes us feel better and better... enhancing our musical experience.

In a given setting some really well liked tubes might be a little too forceful or a little too understated.... too dynamic or too flat... some a little rolled off, or lacking fine detail, or maybe too concentrated in detail, so hard sounding... some a little too warm/dark or maybe too lean.... And each tube influences all the rest, making any of the above perhaps useful at times, and not at others.

Yet with tubes that are known to be pretty good, most any of these "too much" aspects could be just the thing to balance a tube compliment that is missing a little something, to tune into a more balanced and pleasing overall presentation.

So I am not suggesting not to try those tried and true by folks you trust the opinions of. Just that you may ultimately need more choices as you learn the language with your new amps and the ZRock2. And some of the really good tubes by other's standards might be just right in your setting compared to whatever was there before, or a really good start, but may not fit your needs ultimately.

I guess I am suggesting that this is the nature of it, and part of the beauty of tubes... it is like they are alive, the good ones with many, many very complex balances. And finally having a range of nice tubes as we explore can be pretty enlightening. Then mixing and matching is a great way to refine sound in a given system and room.

And lots of nice tubes are not really very expensive. So I guess I am encouraging trying to get "just so" tubes that will likely be pleasing, but also being open to some trial and error to get a more ultimate sound.... adjusting those initial choices if needed after the tubes settle and you get a feel for them. Then what sonic traits would make the sound better for your room and tastes, more or less clear and resolving, more or less dynamic etc. For example, are the Cryotone tubes or rarer/prime NOS tubes you decide to try not just costly, but perhaps a little overstated or understated in some ways? And if so, you have a baseline to work from.

Then what tubes might bring the refinements you would like... furthering the exploration for a more complete and engrossing sound experience. And if we grow to having several good choices of good tubes with different flavors in a given position, we likely will have more options for deeper personalized refinement, and the ability to change it up now and then, causing us to hear the music in different ways.

Having neither a UFO or UFO25, I hope someone with one or both will give opinions on which Wathen tubes to look at.

And I can only hypothesize on the differences in the two amps, but can give it a generalized go, hoping others with the amps will comment.

Based on what I have experienced and heard from others here about modification upgrades on the coupling caps and power supply, and/or internal tubes and resistors... there is a thread throughout amps... these are all ways to increase open transparency, speed, resolution, etc... basically just making the amp do what it did before mods more completely.... so cleaner, more complex, more immediacy/speed, dynamics, density, inner detail, space...

Relative to the UFOs, I am sure you have read a lot on them, but my sense is they have the same foundational design, but the UFO25 looks like it will give you all the amp you have does, while making everything more complete. The Anniversary Modifications do this, but the 25 uses variations on those mods, and takes it quite a bit deeper. Looks to me like most of the amp was tuned up to Steve's optimal view as he refined the beloved 25 year old design, while still being more approachable than comparable in cost.....

So seems to me that with all he learned over those 25 years, and discovered while tuning the UFO25 toward optimized sound...lots of things went into the 25, including Voltage Regulator power refinement and tuning ability, lots of parts and wires upgraded, and not least a tuned up internal power supply. Conceptually, to me, though possibly less obvious, these things are likely as, or very likely, more powerful toward refinement of a more transparent and resolving presentation than just the A-modifications... and it has both designed in. These thoughts are based in the ways I have experienced more advanced parts, wires and bypass upgrades done by sound anyway.

So will tubes you love now translate to your coming amp? I guess that depends on your tastes and system/room... I strongly suspect that the UFO25 will give you more of everything in a more refined and more resolving way, and if that suits you... in  my experience, nicer tubes, in a more refined and complete sounding version of the amp, do tend to translate. With modifications that work in balanced ways across the spectrum in allowing a more complete and musically complex experience, skillful mods do whatever they do to the tubes, so the tubes get more complex and resolved.

But also, with the level of "modifications" the UFO25 got in design, seems to me it will show issues with tubes that do not show as much in the unmodified UFO, just because the 25 will reveal the tube's sounds more completely. So if the tubes are not equally complete as the amp in one or more areas, it will very likely show that. My guesses anyway.

I hope more folks with experience with these amps will come in on this.

Hey Geno,

I wonder if would describe what you mean by "best of many," like maybe a few you compared to the Wathen input, and what the sonic improvements were compared to the others? Just thinking we could put several really nice tubes with a little different balances and emphasis' in that position, and in your room, and you might find one best, and possibly me another, and maybe another person liking the third best. And in another system/room, those "best" results might possibly rotate some.

I have no experience with any cryo'd tubes, so can't add anything on that front.

Last weekend I was sorting through old electronics to take the junk to the recycler. I pulled out an old Sencore scope. It hit me that it uses tubes, but I couldn't recall which. I found a pair of IEC Mullard 6DJ8/ECC88's inside. Popped one in the SE84UFO and it was very good in making a big wide, deep, inviting and detailed soundstage. However, the low end wasn't there and overall volume was much lower.  

Popped that back out and put back the Amperex 6922 and I enjoy that tube most out of what I have here which isn't much. A couple 6N1P and that's it. I recall wanting to try the 6SN7 smoked glass RCA's, can't recall why I never got one, likely side tracked by room treatments.

I also browsed for an Amperex 7308 based on Lon recommending it a few times in different threads. Like Lon, I'm sensitive to too much treble. Too much hot high end cramps my neck. The prices on the 7308 scared me off.

It's great to read many different opinions, thoughts, ideas...it helps when I get the itch to shop which is akin to running blindfolded in the forest at times!

Lon,

Wondering which Wathens did you try, and if the ECC88s, how did they compare in sonic balances/qualities to your E188CCs... I think I recall you using the Holland E188CC/7308s with parasol getters?


Thanks Geno.

Knowing these tubes you used as references, I think your comparisons make sense in pointing to how the Cryotone ECC88 tube tends to sound there. I find 6922/E88CC and 7308/E188CC can vary pretty widely, as do some 6N1Ps (I think i recall your using cleaner more articulate 6N1P 3 micas?), and some 6N5Ps, but I get the family implications as they fit into your comparisons. And I am familiar with the smoked glass RCA 6SN7s. So thanks.

One reason I was interested in your opinions was that I have listened to a number of your youtube videos, and figured that if the recordings are relatively close to the room, that you might be prone to some pretty warm, and even somewhat rolled off tubes. To me, you have a very clear sound, and lot of high end info strong in the balance, making tubes that are warm, and smooth on top make sense, like the smoked the 6SN7 sounds here.

I need pretty unrestricted very fine detail here, with good space, making the overall detail very complex, but prefer that it falls deeper into the blend, contributing to a rich, somewhat sweet midrange, and complex, fast, dynamic, but slightly rounded bass. My HR-1s with Bob's driver/crossover mods on the original HR-1 were pretty sweet, warm and euphonic here... ultimately a little too colored toward darkish/slowish for me, but sweet. I needed to tune them for tighter/faster and more complex bass, and clearer and faster with more complexity throughout really. I still think of them as warmish oriented, and I like that, the combination of the balances quite awake and complex, but still a sweetish warmth that does not slow them down or mask detail in any part of the spectrum. Compared to your recordings with my nice planar headphones, my bass is stronger and rounder, but articulate and textured, the mids more present in the blend and warmer/sweeter, more complexly detailed throughout, so a lot of harmonic info in decays, textures... maybe similarly extended on top... but not close to as bright and clear in balances as your recordings. Just pointing to how much where we start effects tube preferences.

Beside recordings and YouTube compression, who knows what all plays into it with frontends, amps, rooms cables and all, but our sound appears to be so different it could easily cause us to prefer different tubes. For example, the smoked glass RCA 6SN7s, in this warmer/fuller system/room, I have to open up the rest of the tubes notably to counter their being too balanced toward bass  in this setting, making them too "warm" and rolled off compared to my normal Torii inputs. Those are usually pretty neutral (in this room anyway), open and nicely textured early 60s Holland ECC189s ... a complex sound sort of between slightly warm and nicely textured but open ECC88s (like late 50s/early 60s Siemens) and more open, dynamic, and a bit bassier good quality PCC88s... Guessing this tube would probably not be a great tube in your setting, but in mine, it is a favorite with many to compare. That said, I can imagine how the smoked glass 6SN7s might be good in your room and not have to be tuned around like here to bring them out, instead being nice with their inherent biggish fullness, warmth and refined detail... not darkened by the rest like here.

E88CC/6922 types in my Toriis are a little too forceful for me, so I find your sense of the Cryotone ECC88s being sort of a blend of 6922 types and your warm smoked glass 6SN7s interesting... guessing the 6922 contributions you are hearing are their extended and relatively powerful clarity and neutrality (?). Nicer ECC88 variants here tending to be my favorite over recent years, the Cryotones sound like they could possibly be good to me.

But a big part of what I don't tend to like about the forcefulness of E88CC/6922s in my Torii, is that many of the type make the signal too concentrated, especially disturbing up higher for me with the detail too consolidated compared to lower key and more textured quality ECC88/6DJ8s. Even the early 60s, very complexly detailed and warmish E188CC/7308s with parasol getters from Holland sound a little strong in the Torii here, though I love them as power tubes in my CSP3 with a more open and clear PCC88 or ECC88 type as input, and a neutral and resolving/complex rectifier.

So I wonder, how you would describe the detail and spaciousness of the Wathen ECC88... is the detail as complex as your 6SN7s or 65NPs... sort of rich and textured, and if anything a little rolled off with the finest stuff... Or would you call it more concentrated... or .......

It is cool how variable and alive this quest with nice tube gear is.

thanks,

Will

Thanks Lon.

I figured they might be something like that based on what I know about your tube preferences, but good to get verification. The JJs I have enjoyed were an old Cryoset pair of 5AR4/GZ34 in my SE34, and I tried them in my 300B recently and they were pretty good there which I found interesting. And less liked, but useful for a time Cryoset JJ 6CA7s, but reliability was really bad for me with those. Their KT77s are to me in a similar quality neighborhood as the 6CA7s, both pretty nice, but neither a tube I loved. I don't recall having tried any other JJs, but can't rule out liking some of them more than others like other makers. Nor can I imagine how advanced the Wathen method is toward a sound I might like if I liked the original JJ. But it sounds from the two you tried like I might find them too consolidated and hard. I don't even know why I am thinking about them, having so many great NOS tubes!