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So... Power conditioner... (Read 5829 times)
Coyote
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So... Power conditioner...
03/16/23 at 21:30:54
 
Hi All,

Not wanting to steer the conversation about "are they worth it".

But I know the AC power coming from our street is poor. If I put an oscilloscope in one outlet it fluctuates and from one outlet to the next it can be different.

So for me it is about regulating the AC from the wall to a "power conditioner" and having my HiFi components connected to that "box" only.

The budget is minimal and to that extent giving what I am trying to achieve (Having stable 120VAC) could I just use a regular UPS?

Your thoughts?


a.

PS. Someone suggested I put my components in my signature so I put some before running out of allowed space.
Smiley


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My modest system:
SE84UFO2.(2).
Quad mono 303 (x2) + 33 + FM3.
Marantz 2235.
Schiit Mani.
Technic SL23.
Thorens TD160 MKII + SME III tonearm. Ortophon OM10.
Oppo CD/DVD.
Celestion Ditton 66 studio.
Lii F15 in Betsy type OB.
ATAUDIO 12TC Pure OCC.
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CAJames
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #1 - 03/16/23 at 21:51:20
 
Quote:
Posted by: Coyote      Posted on: Today at 13:30:54

...The budget is minimal and to that extent giving what I am trying to achieve (Having stable 120VAC) could I just use a regular UPS?



How many watts do you need?

My experience with UPSes (in computer/network, not audio applications) is the power output is very dirty. It may average out to 120, but it isn't a clean 120, esp. if it is going on/off battery frequently, and is also really hard on the battery. JMO but I would not want a UPS anywhere around my stereo.

It sounds like a true power regenerator is beyond the budget, but perhaps you can swing a balanced power transformer. Decware makes a really nice one, but you can get similar for less $$$ on ebay. That is what I'd do.
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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HockessinKid
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #2 - 03/16/23 at 22:54:57
 
I like my Pi Audio uberBUSS. Used ones show up from time to time.

HK
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Nottingham Interspace TT w/ Audio Technica AT-OC9XML cart + Modwright PH 9.0XT phono OR Modwright modded Cambridge CNX V2 > CSP3-25th Ann. preamp > ZMA-25th Ann. amp > PI Audio UberBUSS > Caintuck Audio Lii15 Magnum speakers > Snake River Audio & ZenWave cables
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JBzen
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #3 - 03/17/23 at 09:44:27
 
If your power is that bad a regenerator would be needed IMO. Did you check at the main circuit panel? Outlet circuits string many recepticals in parallel each of which is connected by cutting the wire and bridging those cuts with screws or compression slots. This can cause loose connections and create a condition as you described(sinewave fluctuation). Not sure of your situation, but the best thing to do is run a new circuit that is dedicated to the audio system. Power conditioning normally will not help with voltage fluctuations.

As CAJames said a UPS would be undesirable for audio system use.

John
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GroovySauce
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #4 - 03/17/23 at 13:59:51
 
I also would stay away from a UPS.

How much is the voltage fluctuating? What time frame? Does it happen when another appliance turns on/off? (Fridge or HVAC)

I would address wild power fluctuation in your home even if stereo isn't a concern.

I like the Torus AVR products. They do keep the voltage at 120V +/- 4V, I've found it holds voltage tighter than spec'd. In my current home with stable power it outputs 120-121V with input voltage between 122-124V. Last house the voltage would vary wildly, 110-128V !!! it would hold it within the +/- 4V range.

I use an UberBUSS after my Torus AVR.
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EdwardT
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #5 - 03/17/23 at 23:34:12
 
I can’t know if this will apply but when I had fluctuations in our house I discovered that the aluminum entrance feed was not tight in the main breaker panel. The power company electrician told me that the aluminum vibrates significantly and will loosen the set screw over time. After he pulled the meter I got a solid half to three quarter turn tighter on the entrance feeder and the problem has not returned.
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Kamran
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #6 - 03/18/23 at 01:35:40
 
Not to hijack the thread, but multiple recommendations led me down a path of Googling the UberBuss and wow…the reviews rivaled that of the more recent Puritan.  It’s a damn shame that it isn’t in production anymore.  Anyone know why that is the case? This leads me to question whether it makes sense to hunt for a used unit (with no support if things go south) or keep my sights on the Puritan.

Side Note: The synergy/relationship of P.I. Audio and Triode Wire Labs was also very interesting to note in the reviews.  TWL also gets very favorable reviews and I had a chance to speak to Pete at the Capital Audio Fest last year (though at the time I didn’t know he was the famous Triode Pete) and that room was one of my favorite sounding rooms of the whole show.
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Innuos Pulse-Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE R2R-Ic0n4 Autoformer Passive Pre-Sarah 300B SET Amp-ZBIT-Project Carbon Debut TT-Schiit Mani Phono-GIK Room Treatment-Caintuck Audio Magnum Baffles—Li Audio Fast 15 Drivers-P.I. Audio MajikBuss & Puritan PSM 156 Conditioners
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Rivieraranch
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #7 - 03/18/23 at 03:49:27
 
I wouldn’t use UPS either; I would go with FedEx.
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HockessinKid
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #8 - 03/18/23 at 10:08:24
 
Kamran,

I believe Pete Gryzbowaki (Triode Pete of Triode Wire Labs) is related to Dave Elledge (PI Audio), possibly his nephew. The reason Dave no longer makes the uberBUSS and related power conditioners is that he retired. His stuff is the real deal. I have two of them and they're bullet proof.

Dave's website mentions another company would be taking over production, maybe Triode Wire Labs, but nothing yet on that front. I suspect Pete is too busy building and selling his products.

HK
.
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Nottingham Interspace TT w/ Audio Technica AT-OC9XML cart + Modwright PH 9.0XT phono OR Modwright modded Cambridge CNX V2 > CSP3-25th Ann. preamp > ZMA-25th Ann. amp > PI Audio UberBUSS > Caintuck Audio Lii15 Magnum speakers > Snake River Audio & ZenWave cables
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JBzen
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #9 - 03/18/23 at 12:35:37
 
UPS=Uninterrupted Power Supply is what is referred to as not being desired to use as a power conditioner for audio in this thread.

UPS=United Parcel Service of which I agree is not a preferred method of transportation for any dedicate equipment such as tube audio Smiley
FedEx seems to be a bit more caring with package handling Smiley

John



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AMC CD8b>XO3>Cambridge CXN2>ZDAC>ZBOX>braided silver/occ> Zrock2>CSP2+>SE84 milflex copper 25th>9AWG silver/copper braid>lii Crystal 10 in Huijgen cabinets. Ortofon 2M Black>JVC QL-F4/Otari MX5050B2>ZP3. Isolation. AC filtering. Room treatment.
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Kamran
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #10 - 03/18/23 at 16:28:59
 
Thanks HK—I might keep an eye out in the used market. It looks like it was offered with various inlet upgrades for an additional cost at the time.  Wondering if those are the ones to look out for…

Maybe we should convince Chris from VH Audio to get the rights…it seems to fit right in with what he offers.
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Innuos Pulse-Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE R2R-Ic0n4 Autoformer Passive Pre-Sarah 300B SET Amp-ZBIT-Project Carbon Debut TT-Schiit Mani Phono-GIK Room Treatment-Caintuck Audio Magnum Baffles—Li Audio Fast 15 Drivers-P.I. Audio MajikBuss & Puritan PSM 156 Conditioners
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HockessinKid
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #11 - 03/18/23 at 17:43:10
 
Kamran,

I have stock build on my units. Four Hubbell outlets, black duratex paint, etc. Dave customized units per customers wishes - fancy wood veneer covers over the MDF boxes, expensive Furutech outlets, etc. His PC recipe was kept proprietary, the boxes are sealed. He spent a great deal of time building each PC and told me that polishing the Hubbell outlet copper connections was very important to achieving great sound quality.

HK
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Nottingham Interspace TT w/ Audio Technica AT-OC9XML cart + Modwright PH 9.0XT phono OR Modwright modded Cambridge CNX V2 > CSP3-25th Ann. preamp > ZMA-25th Ann. amp > PI Audio UberBUSS > Caintuck Audio Lii15 Magnum speakers > Snake River Audio & ZenWave cables
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Kamran
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #12 - 03/18/23 at 19:28:37
 
Thanks HK—really helpful info as I inevitably dig deeper.
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Innuos Pulse-Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE R2R-Ic0n4 Autoformer Passive Pre-Sarah 300B SET Amp-ZBIT-Project Carbon Debut TT-Schiit Mani Phono-GIK Room Treatment-Caintuck Audio Magnum Baffles—Li Audio Fast 15 Drivers-P.I. Audio MajikBuss & Puritan PSM 156 Conditioners
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will
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #13 - 03/18/23 at 21:40:53
 
Kamran,

I have what I think is a stock UBER, but perhaps upgraded with Pass and Seymour Cryo'd outlets... not sure... I tested some Pass and Seymour and Furutech for Dave as system receptacles at the time, so a little confused about that... Whichever receptacles are in it. I bought it new in the fall of 2011 and really have not used it a whole lot. Once I figured out voltage was my biggest inconsistency problem here, I went with a used PSAudio P5 in order to have voltage regulation. Voltage is relatively steady here moment to moment, but not steady at all over days, and my tube amps sound notably different at 117 versus 123 volts. I needed a more reliable sonic baseline for my explorations which the P5 regenerator gave, though I had to work on it a fair bit to get it closer to the transparency I prefer.

So my Uber was used infrequently, mostly in my workspace, perhaps similar total use as a few years in my main system. It is in pretty good shape visually, with a few minor nicks (most original painting flaws) and a few scuffs. Neither are very noticeable to me, and it has always worked flawlessly.

If interested Kamran, PM. I will give you first chance at if you want it.


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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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Coyote
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Posts: 182
Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #14 - 04/03/23 at 18:10:23
 
Greetings everyone,

Thank you for all the comments even the funny ones Wink
And I agree with you all the UPS idea is not worth, it does 'deliver'...

I went with the obvious: Tightening all the connections on the circuit that feeds the system and that made a noticeable difference. Sometimes it is the simple things...

I like the uberBUSS  clean power and will read more about that for sure.

I finally had time to play a bit more with my new UFO2, I cannot say how happy I am so far but of course gremlins have surfaced and I am just going to start a new thread on that subject.

If you are interested look for a new thread by me in this very section.

Again this little community of HIFi Decware enthusiasts is just fantastic.

Kind regards,

Alain
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My modest system:
SE84UFO2.(2).
Quad mono 303 (x2) + 33 + FM3.
Marantz 2235.
Schiit Mani.
Technic SL23.
Thorens TD160 MKII + SME III tonearm. Ortophon OM10.
Oppo CD/DVD.
Celestion Ditton 66 studio.
Lii F15 in Betsy type OB.
ATAUDIO 12TC Pure OCC.
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PDXDrew
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #15 - 04/03/23 at 18:40:52
 
Hi Coyote,
I know you're switching this over to a new thread, but I would like to throw something in the mix. I'm not an expert in electronics, nor do I have experience on this topic, but if you haven't looked into a battery backup generator, it wouldn't hurt to educate yourself a little. There a several manufactures of these, and if you just plug in your front end components, you wouldn't;t need to spend a lot of money on a larger unit. The nice thing is, you can order one on Amazon, or pick one up at a big box store and if it does't work you can return it. These can be budget friendly, and from all I've read, they can be pretty effective.
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CAJames
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #16 - 04/03/23 at 18:51:02
 
Quote:
Posted by: PDXDrew      Posted on: Today at 10:40:52

...but if you haven't looked into a battery backup generator, it wouldn't hurt to educate yourself a little.


Can you post a link to one of these? I'm not familiar with a "battery backup generator" specifically and if I google it get a bunch of generators. You don't mean an "uninterruptible power supply" aka UPS do you?
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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JBzen
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #17 - 04/03/23 at 19:05:30
 
CAJames,

I think he means a unit with a battery and 110V outlet that is meant for emergency portable power use.

UPS is meant to be plugged in all the time ahead of the protected device.

Both, unless specified provide modified sine wave. Usually indicated by price. Pure sine wave generators are much more expensive.

I think that both will not improve noise introduced into the music stream as compared to mains power. Guess it would be worth a try if your main power is that noisy.

John
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AMC CD8b>XO3>Cambridge CXN2>ZDAC>ZBOX>braided silver/occ> Zrock2>CSP2+>SE84 milflex copper 25th>9AWG silver/copper braid>lii Crystal 10 in Huijgen cabinets. Ortofon 2M Black>JVC QL-F4/Otari MX5050B2>ZP3. Isolation. AC filtering. Room treatment.
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PDXDrew
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #18 - 04/03/23 at 19:08:50
 
Bluetti, Jackery, Gaol Zero are a few.
These are not a UPS.
Best reported results, are you charge the battery while not listening, and unplug it from the wall while listening. The important thing, is to get one that produces a perfect sign wave. I'm sure there are a few folks here that can elaborate one that more. Because it is a battery powered it removes what's plugged into from the grid. Seems to work best for front end equipment (DAC, TT, Streamer) so a unit the size of one that's in the picture should be able to run your front end for hours before needing a charge. Guess it still sounds pretty good plugged in while listening as well.


image hosting services
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CAJames
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #19 - 04/03/23 at 19:24:54
 
Thanks, I get it now. I haven't heard about anyone using these for audio, I guess it really depends on how "pure" the pure sine wave is, right? I'm not an expert, but I know inverters tend toward square waves rather than sine waves. It is of course possible to clean it up, but at what cost. Certainly getting one from Amazon to try out would be low risk.
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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PDXDrew
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #20 - 04/03/23 at 19:54:26
 
Haha.... If I only knew how to spell "sine wave".... FWIW- Bluetti does list their inverters as being a pure sine wave inverter. Didn't't see any technical data to back it up.
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will
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #21 - 04/03/23 at 20:11:55
 
I lived off grid for 27 years, ±3 without power, and 24 with a micro hydro system using inverters for AC power. But that was 15 years ago that we left that place, so tech is bound to have gotten better. At the time, some of the purer of the "sine wave" inverters were still noisy, but certainly better than square wave, or less sophisticated "sine wave" inverters. If I remember correctly, the sine wave was basically created with an overlay of enough layers of square waves to look smoother, along with enough smoothing edge tech to appear as a sine wave.

By the end I had a small Exceltech inverter for audio, with a larger Trace for regular use, and both were called "sine wave," but the Exceltech was said to work well with scientific and audio gear, and was a little quieter, but still made my transformers hum.

This particular unit from Amazon, when I ran a search on the sales page, showed no mention of pure sine wave that I could find, so my guess is it likely is not truly a "pure sine wave," .... if any of them are totally smooth and quiet sine waves for that matter. At least back when I was using them, nicer inverters claimed to be, and they were very stable if you did not over draw on them for their ratings, but still not completely quiet.

Perhaps some are so refined now that they are not an issue. I can't guess without research. I do know that when we were looking seriously into solar for the place I live now, maybe 7 years ago(?), I could not readily find standard use Alternative Energy inverters that were not making "dirty" power, enough so that my wife and I being sensitive to EMI and RFI, we were not willing to risk it then...not to mention potential for audio consequences.

That said, there may be small (or larger) units that work well now... just worth more research I guess.
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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PDXDrew
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #22 - 04/04/23 at 05:48:12
 
After bringing up the topic of portable power stations used to power audio. I thought I would educate myself on the importance of a pure sine wave, and its role in producing clean power for our equipment. Here's what I found, and I'm sure most of you here already know how this works. And please- if I made an error, or didn't describe something correctly, please let those that are looking for knowledge get a better understanding.

This is what's rattling around in my head-

Since the power in one of these units is stored in a battery, when the elctricity is used it comes out as DC current.
An inverter converts the DC current to AC, which is pulled from the battery and feeds your equipment.
The sine wave is a graph going from the positive side of zero down to the negative side of zero and back up. Its path should flow in a smooth arc up and down continuously. What it's telling you is the purity of the electricity that is flowing.
If it has this type of flow, it produces little noise, and lets your components run more efficiently.

A similar inverter, called a modified sine wave inverter produce the same flow, buts its graph isn't smooth. It's choppy like strait lines going up over, up over, repeatedly until it reaches its peak and comes down the other side in the same manner. It continues its cycle like this. The larger the segments the more noise and heat will be associated with it.This noise, and heat ends up in your equipment as noise and heat, which is what we work so hard to eliminate.

Pure sine wave inverters are more expensive and end up in more costly equipment than the common PPS. Is there new technology that is used in these units. One that creates a pure sine wave at a lower cost? Or, could it be that these units are being massed produced at high enough volume that the prices can be brought down enough to include a higher quality inverter.

An article from 2019 on Enjoythemusic.com by Tom Lyle put up a Gaol Zero Yeti that cost $499 against a Stormtank S2500 that cost over $19K. The Stromtank is a unit produced for audio use, and he reviewed very favorably the year prior. His article sent my looking for more and I found several reviews on A'Gon from end users praising its use.

However- the brands that I listed in a previous post, all state their inverters are pure sine wave, but I could not find a graph on any of the webpages showing what they produce. I tried to find articles, reviews, or someone posting the results that they measured from a unit, and I couldn't find anything. Not saying it's not there, I just didn't;t have any luck.

It would be interesting to see results regarding the sine wave these produce. Good, bad, or so so. The merit of this device is a cost effective way to feed your components low noise power at all times of day. If that is indeed the case.

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JBzen
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #23 - 04/04/23 at 09:52:30
 
IMO, by adding an inverter creates redundancy and most likely an undesirable result as a audio power source. Decware have beefy power supplies that can deal with most main power fed into it producing satisfactory clean DC plate voltage. All inverters on the market are task oriented. Unless it is specifically meant for audio use it should be avoided Smiley

With the advent of electric cars, one can imagine the downsizing of Li-Ion batteries to supply plate voltage for audio tube circuits. That, again IMO, would be a holy grail event worth pondering/pursuing Smiley

John
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JBzen
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #24 - 04/04/23 at 10:29:30
 
Found this video for you.

https://youtu.be/Zb_53Bg9Umw

Couple of pics from the video of the sine wave produced.




Looks a bit noisy to me but partly due to the resolution of the oscilloscope.

John
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AMC CD8b>XO3>Cambridge CXN2>ZDAC>ZBOX>braided silver/occ> Zrock2>CSP2+>SE84 milflex copper 25th>9AWG silver/copper braid>lii Crystal 10 in Huijgen cabinets. Ortofon 2M Black>JVC QL-F4/Otari MX5050B2>ZP3. Isolation. AC filtering. Room treatment.
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CAJames
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #25 - 04/04/23 at 14:47:33
 
Quote:
Posted by: JBzen      Posted on: Today at 02:29:30

...Looks a bit noisy to me but partly due to the resolution of the oscilloscope.


Ya think? LoL. I'm inherently suspicious of an inverter in my audio chain, but I'd at least like to see the output on an actual 'scope, not a "graphical mulitmeter" (and not even a Fluke...). The other thing is it is always possible to clean up a sine wave, but does that generate extra EMI? Limit and/or slow down the response to peaks? We can discuss the potential theoretical advantages and disadvantages forever, what really matters is someone listening to one of these in their system.
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
Sumiko Pearwood -> Mapleknoll Athena -> Luxman SUT -> Maple-tree Phono 3E
Woo WA22 -> 2x UFO25s, balanced monos
Omega SAM , Hifiman Arya, Senn HD-650
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will
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #26 - 04/04/23 at 16:58:14
 
I agree, finally hearing one in action and experiencing whatever positive things, and whatever issues might present, will be the bottom line... But I would not just pick one thinking they are all the same, or without researching how rating requirements might be different for our quiet audio use compared to for camping or backup uses.

Quality of output depends on so many things... does it have enough power headroom for a setting... is the output pure and unpolluted... if so, how long will the particular unit's battery last per session within a particular use the system requires... and how does this average into the number of charges before needing battery replacement, etc. Then, if whatever is chosen is on some technical borderline depending on environment and use, like lots of conditioners, it could possibly work for one and not another. And finally, like everything else, expectations of the user and things like how refined and dynamic the power supply is, might make it fine for one, and not for another.

Many of us have used a lot of different power "fixers," and all I have tried have their pluses and minuses stock. And our individual power problems are always variable. So in part, variability in success with so many of these things makes sense technically.... different power issues, along with different gear and system needs will change the outcome, aside from tastes and expectations being variable.

Like Triplite Isolation Transformers... some think they are great, and others, not so... Or I finally got a used PSAudio P5 regenerator with so many swearing by them, and I thought it needed some notable tuning and attention to fit my needs for transparency and speed in my setting. And with it, and much more attention between wall and system, I still struggle with challenging hum levels, at times, and for my tastes, when everything is cranked up. Many serious audio heads will avoid any conditioning if conditions permit with a clean dedicated line. And much more....  

So it seems to me this is likely like everything else.... the success of the unit chosen is in part based on the particular environment, the particular system, and tastes... and likely all of these based on my experience.

Anyway, just pointing to research if one wants to test one of these as it is likely that some will be better for audio than others relative to transparency and dynamics. And, if they are an overall improvement, then we would find out if it works well in battery mode, and perhaps less well in plugged in mode, the charger likely influencing the power cleanliness, but how much??? And if so, what about battery longevity in use, and in terms of the max number of charge cycles... costs of replacement batteries... does the unit itself make any noise you can hear in the room... lots of considerations.

I don't know, not having tried one. I do have a recent "sine wave" UPS for other use that is supposed to be purer than most grid power, and maybe it is in some ways, but I have my doubts about audio. For one thing, with it, you can hear an audible noise in the unit itself beyond the fan that starts when it cuts into battery mode. Just the unit noise and fan noise would irritate me for audio use, and I suspect both might pollute the output as well, at least some. So another consideration, even if the wave created is pretty clean, then is all the rest of it isolated and not polluting the power-out (or audible space) with noise that our sensitive-to-noise Decware and ears will reveal.

I think another part of my suspicions are that historically sine versus modified sine has not been cut and dried. There are very likely still degrees between the two in terms of purity and sound based on tech used to create the AC from DC, and as pointed to, other influences to consider for audio... Also they advertised the inverters I used back in the day similarly, "better than most grid supplies..." This little thing is basically a little battery power station advertised for backup and camping, etc, and it may or may not address noise in ways we would like for day in and day out fine audio. Or if they do address noise more carefully, some units from the same company might be more focussed on being cleaner beyond sheer functionality, with attention to powering more sensitive needs better... attention to lower distortions/EMI/RFI, and clean power/parts/design for mitigating noise and not limiting dynamics.

Just considering how difficult it can be to solve noise from the grid or otherwise for sensitive audio gear... this depends on a lot of things. I mean, just think about how much energy gear makers spend on a clean power supply in our fine audio pieces...things dedicated to low noise and complex dynamics. And think about how many people end up with hum issues even with all this work, as well as with a lot of care in power conditioning or regenerating work.

So if some of these really can give clean dynamic power, that could be really nice!
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #27 - 04/04/23 at 17:51:52
 
Will, Thank you for the well written response on this subject. Indeed, everything is a variable out there, depending on where you might live, the needs of your system, and of course the power conditioner/regenerator itself.
Some of these conditioners have a different intended use and are not meant so much to be inserted into an audio system. At one time, I owned a Tripplite device solely because of the varying voltage conditions that existed way out there in the mountains that I lived at for a time. My needs changed when I moved to the city and surprisingly had the best power ever. It was a new subdivision, so most everything was new to start with. Regardless, my curiosity got the best of me and I bought the then new PS Audio power regenerator. I have owned other PS Audio regenerators but my experience is undeniably in favor of the original PS P300 with muti-wave. Mostly due to the fact that it produced balanced AC power as regenerated from the wall. Secondly, it was by far the most reliable unit that they ever made. Just read about the 'Premiere' model. I owned one and it was a PITA, with numerous problems. Didn't produce balanced power either.

Finally, I ended up with a BPT balanced power conditioner and because there is no 'electronic' circuitry, only electrical circuitry involved, I believe it to be effective and reliable.
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Decware 34I.3 integrated amp/Forte' 3 bass amp/Velodyne SMS-1 bass mngmnt system/Decware ZOB speakers/Audio Nirvana 8" bass drivers/Xiang Seng DAC/ LR Audio Computer/Rega Apollo R CDP/Emotiva ERC3 CDP/BPT 3.0 power cond.
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #28 - 04/04/23 at 18:04:40
 
Quote:
Posted by: will      Posted on: Today at 08:58:14

... But I would not just pick one thinking they are all the same, or without researching how rating requirements might be different for our quiet audio use compared to for camping or backup uses...


As usual Will you make great points. The thing is I'm pretty sure all these boxes are in fact designed for "camping or backup uses" and 99.99% of the people who buy them will be buying them for those purposes.

Not to go off topic but this reminds me of another hobby horse I like to ride occasionally, audiophile network switches. Managing the network at our local mid-major research university was my day job for many years and while, on the face of it, "audiophile network switches" sounds like a joke in fact they make a lot of sense in our world. This is confirmed by several posters in other threads, that not just switches but pretty much every part of the network chain matters if you care about maximizing the quality of your streaming experience. The point of all of this is that the audiophile network switches are not (I'm pretty sure) available on Amazon. They are (relatively) high dollar boutique items made in small quantities for a small customer base. My expectation is that an audiophile battery power station would probably need a similar treatment. But of course I would encourage anyone who is curious to try one (or more) of these out and let us know what you think.
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[FOOBAR2000 | Jay's CDT2 MRK3] -> Denafrips Terminator 2 + Gaia
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will
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #29 - 04/04/23 at 21:38:52
 
Good pointer with the network switches CAJames. I do not stream music from the net so far. But those threads on making that better with network setups got my attention. Out of curiosity, I decided to try some TP-Link Fast Ethernet SFP to RJ45 Fiber Media Converters recommended in one thread, working them into my wired Ethernet setup for streaming movies and other internet needs. I figured it may not be a definitive test, but could be interesting.

And just a few inexpensive converters and a fiber cable, going from Ethernet to fiber and back to ethernet before my movie setup, did help space and clarity in both sound and in video. Not mind boggling as I recall, but noticeable enough to like. I guess that just this standard network equipment example illustrates how supple and vulnerable energetics can be, and energetic information transfers can be... to me indicating how little we really "know" about the subtle nature of, and associated effects from how we "handle" energy.

This is very clear in component power supplies. It blows my mind how changing a little bypass cap in a Decware power supply can refine or degrade the sound of an already carefully bypassed and tuned-for-music power supply. And then trying a bunch of caps I have already vetted of the same value, and I will hear different sonic influences that are clearly better or worse for the spectral, speed, and tonal balances I am trying to refine things toward...

4krow,

I have changed power things up lately, mainly due to this thread. I am presently using a nicely made little Balanced Power Supply from China that I tuned with better caps across the AC to-sound, and put a nice cable on, also tuned for resolving transparency and speed. This is first after a Mapleshade wall receptacle.

Then, in a clearing mode, and so many having such great luck with Ubers, I put my rarely used one out there.... When that did not work out right away, I decided to open it up and see if I could tune it some. I chose some poly caps I known to be transparent and resolving to try across the receptacle's AC, to see if it made the Uber faster, more resolving and transparent. This was supplementing the caps already there that were under shrink, so I don't know what they are, but I guessed mine were better for music. And it did help enough that I wanted to leave it to burn in.

Then, into the Uber in this new configuration, is my Audio Brickwall in one of the three Uber receptacles on my unit. I think I recall they are designed to be isolated from one another. The Brickwall is also tuned up with better receptacles and power cord, my fav power unit for a transparent front end so far here, and good enough for me that I have not pursued improvements once I tuned it some. Contributing, I made a smoother, more resolving and quiet cable for my Mac Mini, and also have really nice cables going to my Singxer USB converter and DACs from the Brickwall. It does have a Shunyata Defender for filtering also, one of quite a few powered or passive sound cleaners I use here.

Plugged into another of the Uber's receptacles, is my modified PSAudio P5 that I use for amps, etc, these tube amps in particular benefiting from steady voltage that is adjustable. For tuning the sound some voltages sound better in my setup than others, and other than that, the phase adjustment I find very useful here. My typical settings are 117 for voltage, and -7 for phase, creating a lively, resolving, open/spacious, and relatively fast and solid sound balance, at least in my room.

Finally, my little SVS sub is plugged into the last of three Uber receptacles, also with a specially made fast power cable.

I will have to take a morning or day, or week, to test it in various configurations one day, but for now, this power has a nicely smooth, but also a sweet aliveness, resolving everything down to the subtler space and fine detail information pretty nicely, so I am enjoying it... Just can't say yet if the Uber will stay, or if I will have to pursue more modifications on it, or if I will end up with a different arrangement or combination of these things. But these explorations show what we always notice in resolving systems, that it all matters, and how all the things go together matters!
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #30 - 04/05/23 at 01:03:05
 
Well it appears that my innocent post is being helpful to folks in ways I did not anticipate.
:-)

a.

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My modest system:
SE84UFO2.(2).
Quad mono 303 (x2) + 33 + FM3.
Marantz 2235.
Schiit Mani.
Technic SL23.
Thorens TD160 MKII + SME III tonearm. Ortophon OM10.
Oppo CD/DVD.
Celestion Ditton 66 studio.
Lii F15 in Betsy type OB.
ATAUDIO 12TC Pure OCC.
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #31 - 04/05/23 at 17:45:11
 
I found an article on 6moons.com about dirty power and the use of a plug and play mains noise analyzer have a company called Blue Horizon.It has an LED display showing you numerically how dirty your lines are, and provides audio feedback, it was even picking up radio stations. Interesting read. My first thought was, is that I need one of these. What an easy way to see what areas in your power feed need to be addressed. Is it my outlets, PC, power conditioner? Just plug it in to each of concern and it tells you the good or bad. But- as nice as this device is, it cost a whopping $995. I found one on the Cable Company website and it looks like Iso Tek bought them out. I found a similar device on Ebay for $35 and bought it. I'll play around with it and let you know if this works.

I totally agree 100% that our ears are the final judge on the how something performs. Not only are we looking to take our dirty power. We are looking to improve on things like tonal balance, attack, and sound stage. What we introduce into our power feed has an effect on those qualities. But- if t a device like this actually works, it could allow us to find what the weakest link is and address that first.

In order for this to work on a PC I have to order an adapter as well.

https://6moons.com/audioreviews/bluehorizon/3.html
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #32 - 04/06/23 at 18:00:01
 
I like this idea, and have explored similar with an old Stetzerizer dirty power meter I got years ago to identify how many of their plugin filters might be needed to clean up EMF/RF emanating into living spaces from our house wires. I am pretty sure it is designed to measure higher frequencies, but not sure the range, just that it is focussed on those considered more harmful to our health than 60 HZ or 120 HZ, and these being some of the much lower frequencies that seem to often plague transformers. I am guessing a lot of these dirty electricity meters are similar, more of the less expensive ones being focussed on starting in the 5kHz to 10K range and higher???

So who knows how accurate these measurements will be for common noise issues in audio gear, how well the criteria of each of these meters relates to our audio. But an interesting idea to me too, so I wanted to see if it might be some point of reference.

I pulled mine out along with my airborne EMF/RF meter and did some tests.

On the Stetzer meter, under current conditions that are variable depending on the time of day, neighbor's uses, uses in this house.... with all things audio plugged in and running, the my receptacle my power filtering/regenerating stuff is plugged into read about 32. And this would be a lot higher if I did not have a bunch of the Stetzer filters plugged in all around the house, our power all connected, and those filters being cumulative in effect. They are supposed to filter from about 2 kHz to about 150 kHz, and Stetzerizer says that a meter reading generally below 35 is best, with a range of 35-50 acceptable for folks not as sensitive to electronic pollution. Right after the receptacle, out of the Balanced Transformer Supply, read 15. And out of the Uber, plugged into the Balanced supply, also 15. Then plugged into the Uber, the PSAudio P5 high power regenerated receptacle read about 31, increasing whatever was read by this meter back to wall power noise levels more or less. And the Brickwall for my front end stuff, also plugged into the Uber, was about 17.

Not sure exactly how these numbers relate to other meters, and there is no sound on this meter. Also can't guess  how much the measured increases in the actual power units that feed the turned on audio gear are influenced by the gear or perhaps self generated in the case of the regenerator..

So I found this is intersting, but I still have some transformer hum, and have good measurements according to the meter maker for solving the worst frequencies of "dirty electricity."

And finally, from many experiments, though the Uber modifications are still waking up/burning in and not AB tested, it was not worse putting it in green, more different but also compelling. And something is sounding a little better in time with it being the main thing burning in... more solid, dynamic and smoothly resolving than when I first put it in... seems more "not there."

So I am thinking all these are pieces in the chain have positive effects on my overall sound quality, and therefore don't quite know how to more articulately interpret this meter more than broadly.

EDIT:

Forgot the TriField mainly EMF and RF Meter. Reading stuff in the air, it reads extremely high near the gear, especially the Balanced Power Supply transformer and less, but still bigtime, those on the amps. This gets into a more so called acceptable zone at around 3 feet, reading under 3 milligauss. And it reads nicely lower from about 4-5 feet out, less than 1 milliguass and dropping with more distance.
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #33 - 04/06/23 at 18:59:21
 
 Man, I just remembered that so many years ago, we were given THD meters at the phone company. I know. Somebody sold something and made a profit for something that we really didn't need. Maybe it was intended for data or something. Dunno.
 Meters in general should fit the intended purpose of your needs. What I mean is that a certain meter may be intended for a rougher measurement or different environment. It may work ok for its intended purpose, but without more proof, you may be getting another gadget that doesn't measure up to what it is being sold as.
I am thinking just how many times we were given new equipment when the old equipment was actually better.
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Decware 34I.3 integrated amp/Forte' 3 bass amp/Velodyne SMS-1 bass mngmnt system/Decware ZOB speakers/Audio Nirvana 8" bass drivers/Xiang Seng DAC/ LR Audio Computer/Rega Apollo R CDP/Emotiva ERC3 CDP/BPT 3.0 power cond.
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #34 - 04/06/23 at 22:27:55
 
Quote:
Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #30 - 04/04/23 at 20:03:05   Well it appears that my innocent post is being helpful to folks in ways I did not anticipate.
:-)


Oh Coyote….you have no idea how helpful. Not that I didn’t know about conditioners or not have one already, but this thread led to a very interesting alternate discovery that I’m still trying to wrap my head around.  Probably need another day or two to share more details.  Stay tuned…
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #35 - 04/06/23 at 22:52:47
 
Kamran... Smiley

a.
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My modest system:
SE84UFO2.(2).
Quad mono 303 (x2) + 33 + FM3.
Marantz 2235.
Schiit Mani.
Technic SL23.
Thorens TD160 MKII + SME III tonearm. Ortophon OM10.
Oppo CD/DVD.
Celestion Ditton 66 studio.
Lii F15 in Betsy type OB.
ATAUDIO 12TC Pure OCC.
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #36 - 04/06/23 at 23:06:14
 
Greetings everyone,

So, of course, like everyone else on this tread I have started doing some research of my own.
I even came to my own theories...

Here is my latest:
Unless you have a huge stable power supply that provides clean power in your amps and other components then every power fluctuations, noise in the line stresses you PS and can transmit RF noise, delays, Voltage sag, etc downstream.
Good power supplies are expensive and the first thing a manufacturer will cut on.
So put a decent PS in front of your equipment and you are not stressing anything downstream.
Let your equipment make the music and have a separate PS in front making clean power and taking the stress out of dealing with noise and dirty power for the rest of your equipment.

Now, I am an expert you know, I have Googled this all night last night... Trust me.
"Now, I'm the Master!"
That, at least, is my theory. L

""Now, I'm the Master!"' Bonus point if some one can post that famous wave file from the 1990s!

Cheers!

a.
Grin
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My modest system:
SE84UFO2.(2).
Quad mono 303 (x2) + 33 + FM3.
Marantz 2235.
Schiit Mani.
Technic SL23.
Thorens TD160 MKII + SME III tonearm. Ortophon OM10.
Oppo CD/DVD.
Celestion Ditton 66 studio.
Lii F15 in Betsy type OB.
ATAUDIO 12TC Pure OCC.
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Kamran
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #37 - 04/09/23 at 03:13:20
 
So, this one’s a doozy….

Thanks to Coyote’s thread, I started reading and getting obsessed with the rave reviews of the UberBuss.  Got a lot of pearls of wisdom from Will offline and out of nowhere, after buying a TWL PC, and chatting with the seller, learned that he was about to sell his MajikBuss Rev B.  Considering, I had already bought one of his PC’s (10 Plus), he gave me a hard to resist deal on his MajikBuss Rev B (with special sauce upgrade) and TWL 7 Plus combo and I was like—here’s goes another leap of faith!

So what is the MajikBuss Rev B (with special sauce upgrade)?  I compiled something for Will based on various old threads of Dave explaining the differences between his conditioning units, that I will share below:

“The original MajikBUSS was discontinued last year (2010).  The RevB is a considerably more effective device.”

“The RevB came about as a unit that was initially going to be called the SuBUSS.  It has a slightly upgraded Brick and the PFC network from the Uber.  This unit is very dynamic like an Uber and works well for all around use.  The Uber is still superior for heavy duty work as well as being the best unit to use for digital sources.  The EMI/RFI blocking and dissipation that it does makes digital circuitry happy, happy, happy.”

“The RevB has the same PFC network as the Uber, but with a smaller (lower mass) EMI/RFI brick.  I have worked long and hard to make the BUSS series as sonically neutral as possible retaining the natural timbre of the original material - just mo' betta'.”

“It works really well as an all around performer.  Amps and subs love it.  This is not to say that digital doesn't benefit from it, far from it.  Digital sounds amazing through it.  The Uber, is like its' name, Uber when it comes to SOTA performance in all aspects.  Digital reproduction with power supplied by the UberBUSS really has to be heard to fully understand what I am talking about.”

“It is that classic choice of three:

MajikBUSS - very good
SuBUSS - better
UberBUSS - best”

Comment from Triode Pete:

“I had a chance to personally audition your Rev. B Buss on my SET monoblocks. I can honestly say that this is the first "power conditioner" that did not rob any of the dynamics away from my Western Electric 300B's. It did no harm; in fact, it improved the soundstage, made things quieter. Noises and other nasty anomalies that aren't normally detected, appeared to be removed. Dynamics appeared to be improved!! “

“What is the Special Sauce Upgrade:

It has an EMI/RFI brick that is much larger than a normal RevB.  It is as big as I could cram into that size enclosure.  It also has additional HF filtering dedicated to isolating digital nasties.  Also, all of the parts were cryoed, broken in and then cryoed again.”
——————————————————————————————————————

I’ve been testing the MajikBuss in my rig for almost two weeks now.  One of the reasons it took longer for me to come to any sort of definitive conclusion is that early on during the testing, I was plagued with intermittent tranny hum that I think I have resolved now and will explain in a separate thread.  Now what about this thingamajibby?

Based on my research, I was conditioned to use it with my Dennis Had amp on it’s dedicated circuit.  The difference was subtle at best.  Not the dramatic veil lifting experience I was hoping.  So, I decided to change things around and disconnected my AQ PowerQuest 3 conditioner and plugged in all my source gear in to MajikBuss Rev B and connected the amp straight in to the wall.  Well, shit.  Now the difference was unmistakeable.  Definitely veil lifting, where I can hear more in to the background (in other words blacker blacks, allowing me to hear more details on some familiar tracks), the timbre is more truer and carries more energy (on some tracks to the point that I’m considering toeing the speakers out a tad), the bass seems to have gained more heft, and an increase in dimensionality and holographic nature of the presentation.

So I can’t explain why the difference wasn’t as stark with my Dennis Had plugged in, considering the MajikBuss Rev B was targeted towards amps, but I’m still a happy camper with this outcome.
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Innuos Pulse-Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE R2R-Ic0n4 Autoformer Passive Pre-Sarah 300B SET Amp-ZBIT-Project Carbon Debut TT-Schiit Mani Phono-GIK Room Treatment-Caintuck Audio Magnum Baffles—Li Audio Fast 15 Drivers-P.I. Audio MajikBuss & Puritan PSM 156 Conditioners
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will
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #38 - 04/09/23 at 03:55:39
 
Interesting Kamran,

So you removed the  AQ PowerQuest 3 conditioner altogether right. Makes me wonder how much of the improvements you heard were from getting it out of there, or were they more from adding the Buss to the frontend. Wondering if you tried your front end straight into the wall for comparison... using just the dedicated circuits and no conditioning?

It is fun to experience your system/room evolution.

Will
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #39 - 04/09/23 at 04:58:33
 
Hey Will—the AQ conditioner is practically out of the system. It’s not connected to my dedicated 2 channel circuits anymore. The only reason I am using it now is to add to the length of my Ethernet run to my streamer.  I have a 15 ft run of Supra Cat 8 that was falling a foot short, which I could have solved by swapping places on the shelf with my Holo DAC, but was too lazy.  The AQ Conditioner has a network (RJ 45) in and out. So I have a short Supra going in, giving me enough length to get the longer length Ethernet cable comfortably to the streamer.  The AQ is now being powered by a non-dedicated circuit.  

Haven’t tried connecting source gear to the wall for a variety of reasons including (in order or importance): the PC’s that I have now for my source gear are too short to reach the dedicated outlet and need either the AQ or Buss for power.  Secondly, even if I had enough longer length cables, I could have only plugged in 2 of the 3 source gear on the Shunyata duplex outlet.  Thirdly, it sounds too damn good for me to change anything, lol.

I am not saying that the Buss to amp didn’t change it for the better.  It did, but I really had to listen carefully over days and the difference was not nearly as earth shattering compared to the Buss connected to source gear.  Go figure.
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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #40 - 04/10/23 at 23:48:08
 
Meant to post pics:


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Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #41 - 04/14/23 at 00:22:36
 
I’ve actually developed a good relationship with the seller of the MajikBuss (he’s been at this game for decades) and have received some great advice and feedback.  I shared my experience with the MajikBuss with him and wanted to share an excerpt from his response:

“Thank you for getting back to me with such a comprehensive and detailed sharing of your experiences.  Frankly, I am not "so" surprised at your findings given the work that I know Dennis puts into his amplifiers.  What it sounds like to me is that you have two personal discoveries which, for me, are the best ones since not based on reading, salesmen etc just your own experience in your own systems.  For me, those are the most exciting ones.

First learning tells me that the Inspire amp has a very well designed power supply and seems to actually benefit from going straight to the wall outlet.  Both are good results and Peter Quvortrup , head of Audio Note has been saying for years that all amps should be plugged straight into the wall. A bit of an "overarching" comment but clearly true in your case.“

What he said about the impact of the MajikBuss on the amp (or lack thereof) makes a lot of sense in retrospect.
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Innuos Pulse-Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE R2R-Ic0n4 Autoformer Passive Pre-Sarah 300B SET Amp-ZBIT-Project Carbon Debut TT-Schiit Mani Phono-GIK Room Treatment-Caintuck Audio Magnum Baffles—Li Audio Fast 15 Drivers-P.I. Audio MajikBuss & Puritan PSM 156 Conditioners
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Carlsbad
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Posts: 200
Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #42 - 04/18/23 at 03:35:41
 
Here is the power from my untility and out of my PSA PP10 Regenerator.  Taken this afternoon.  They had a maintenance outage today and I had hoped they would improve the product.  No joy.  

https://photos.app.goo.gl/kzxgRQdPXr2roAHH6

https://photos.app.goo.gl/BBHbjUEbaTSg1KLo7

https://photos.app.goo.gl/CeXgRCSCX83s23KY8

Jerry
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Decware SE84UFO w/20th mods
Grimm MU1 Streamer
Lampizator Golden Gate 3 DAC
Tekton Encore Speakers
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JBzen
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Posts: 1344
Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #43 - 04/18/23 at 10:34:20
 
Now that is a good looking wave Jerry!

How is the fuse replacement thing-a-majig coming? Very interested in what you come up with.

John
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Carlsbad
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Posts: 200
Re: So... Power conditioner...
Reply #44 - 04/18/23 at 13:20:42
 
Don't want to hijack the thread but the fuse is also about power so I'll give you a short answer.  First breaker I bought, I didn't like the design.  The bimetal strip used to break current still heats up and is a resistive load.  I need to find a minature magneticly actuated breaker.  I'm busy right now moving the crossovers out of my speakers into an external cabinet.  I'll get back to it soon.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/oPrZbcuECRnRbcWNA
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Decware SE84UFO w/20th mods
Grimm MU1 Streamer
Lampizator Golden Gate 3 DAC
Tekton Encore Speakers
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