Dave Elledge, now retired from PI Audio, planned a treatment package of their 4 piece diffuser set and the rest I diy’d that is relatively similar to that room, just more bare bones comparatively speaking.

Also wall to wall carpeting with the magic of the heavy rubberized waffle padding underneath (a bitch to find for non commercial use) that you, Steve, strongly recommended.

And I can say it all made my 12x10 room sound 20 times that, I shit you not. The soundstage exploded.

Plus it’s fun to stare at the front wall that’s like 80% covered with diffuser panels that I painted like 8 coats (what a pain in the ass that was) mixed with Elmer’s glue and framed in stained / lacquered wood for kicks.

A+++

I can’t wait to find out how the Torii MK 5 (should be maybe 2 weeks away) will mate with the newly acquired HR-1’s

Brad

so you're saying my wood paneling , shag carpet and faux fur beanbag chairs aren't gonna cut it??? so hard to get ahead of this game.

When I get this far, I feel like my dilemma will be:

Acoustically near-perfect music room that is emotionally sterile and solitary

VS.

Acoustically adequate music room that is inviting to myself and others, facilitates social listening in addition to the solitary experience, and feels good to sit in.

I'm very sensitive to my environment, so I need to resolve the dilemma in a way where my music room will first and foremost allow me to love living this life and let me listen to music as opposed to worrying about perfecting each area of my listening experience.

In this sense, I also question my own need to upgrade my equipment from my current setup I'd describe as...Normie-plus? But then I hear about people's experiences with the separation of instruments, the lifelike experience that makes you want to (need to?) listen for hours on end, and I'm like, I want that.

This is more my own thought process than anything that's universal (I don't really believe in universals). I don't want a room that is fighting my pursuit of great sound, but I also, if I'm being honest, don't really want a room that looks like the one posted above, either. I want some place where I can listen to music alone, but where I can also introduce the newest, little members of my family to the joys of great music and great music reproduction. What are the solutions?

ET, I am in your same exact mental spot. Mine is a 35 long, 12 wide, 7 high basement rec room/guest room/family room. I just purchased a huge area rug and am installing with a wood "cleat". I am still trying to figure out exactly how to do that.
I do want to keep this looking somewhat like a living space as opposed to mausoleum. So, the area rug for absorption and strategic placement of furniture. I can position my Lii OBs about 5 feet from front wall, so that helps.

The less the correct treatment employed, the more you leave the capabilities of your audio equipment left untapped and on the table.

Your choice, your gain or loss.

In my case, I spent about $1,100 which included carpet/padding. Quite a dramatic transformation.

Lots of observational questions for sure.

I am wondering what is going on with the ceiling. I see it is wood and wood can be a little forgiving at times.

All those spectacular diffusion and absorption panels encircling the entire room and the bare wood ceiling gets a couple of rags stapled up and that's it?

Must be a work in progress. For the $$$ I would have thought a ceiling treatment might be included.
You don't just have four surfaces to address and improve; you have six, at the very least.

Kahuna Jack wrote Quote:


It's funny you mentioned recycling bin because that's what I use pallets to build in community gardens, usually eight pallets for three section recycling compost bin. Those pallets are rough but they are fire treated wood. I used to have a log splitter when I lived upstate. Right tools for the right job and you could knock it out 123. Before the pandemic I was heavily involved in urban gardening.

See all the pallets top right? They became a privacy fence inside the razor wire fence

OK, for the poor guy who drug his matteress to the recycle bin... let's talk about corner trapping.  First lets look at the wrong way to do it.



In this example, the wavelength absorbed will be up to 4 times the distance from the rear corner to the front face. So if that distance is 12 inches, the wavelength it can absorb is 1/4 of 1125 hertz or 281 hertz.  That's not even really bass.  It's mid bass.

By increasing the size of this triangle to a front to back depth of 18 inches or so, it would drop to 750Hz/4 or 187 hertz.  Still mid bass.

By replacing the fiberglass with denser material like Rockwool in 2 inch thick bats spaced 1 inch apart from front to back the same 18 inches in the free standing container the same size can absorb down to 25 Hz or so.

The container must be an air tight box with no internal bracing made from plywood or MDF or particle board.  Shape is not important, but since we are discussing corners, a triangle or diamond shape is the most effective for the smallest footprint.

This would be called a diaphragmatic bass trap.  Most rooms require at least two, many require three and some require all four corners to contain one.

These must be free standing with about a 2 inch air gap between the wall corner and the device.  This way energy can be absorbed from all sides. The energy is turned into heat.  This design is linear.  It absorbs all bass frequencies evenly.

Remember a 30Hz bass note is a wave that is 37' long.  You would need a sponge or fiberglass trap like the picture to be 9' thick to work to 30Hz.

Mjmalon wrote on 08/08/22 at 20:59:44:


Manny, I was actually being a little serious, with my tongue in my cheek.
I have to assume that this pic was taken during a midway point of the install. It's a beautiful thing!

Surely no one alive can forget that they have a ceiling with which to contend when attempting to temper a small room like this.

Roof and ceiling is the first reason we have an inside, right?

Glad you had a laugh.


I would love to see the finished product. Ceiling is next for me in my room.
Not sure which way to go.

I would love to hear more about the diamond shaped corner traps or maybe, since I have shallow 8' celings, maybe some truncated diamond shapes for my needs.
I did curved front panels in my front vertical corners, instead of diamonds, and it helps a lot.

Quote:


And this is why I ask the questions. Thank you for this. It gives me a starting point once I have the components lined up and found a house.

I will never have 70K to treat a room, but am wondering what can be done with 5-10K.

There are two problems with it.  One won't be obvious until you compare it to a non corrected -- but treated room. That would be the DSP itself.  On many DAC's and computers using the DSP portion of the DAC diminishes sound quality.  But if your room is too bad to hear that and many are, then the DSP will make it sound better than not using it.

The first of the two problems is that DSP correction only works for the speakers and the listener being fixed in one position.  Moving either, even just a little bit will mess up the correction.  If you hot glue your speakers to the floor and put your head in a vise there would be no way to mess it up.

That said, when your speakers are fixed in place and you're strapped into the chair, a microphone driven system that time aligns both speakers and finds the flattest response can really be mind blowing.  A system like this should be fully active so that the computer has control over the tweeter and mid and bass drivers separately.  A really advanced program could even adjust the crossover in real time based on SPL and the dynamic content of the recording by measuring the drivers response at different SPL, the distortion of that driver, phase angle, etc,. and then with a good algorithm find the most linear and lowest distortion playback possible on a second by second basis.  What's really amazing is when you can make this incredible feat sound bad with even more advanced technology.  This advanced technology is realized by using a single driver speaker with one voice coil and no crossover and a single amplifier in a treated room without a computer and minimal restrictions on where you listen in the room.

The reality is that when we listen to music in a room, we actually listen to the room with a touch of direct sound in it, but it's mostly the room.  This is why a treated room sounds better because the room itself sounds good and sounds this way with any speaker placed wherever that speaker sounds best.  Sound takes on the signature of whatever the last surface it touched was.  So it is the speaker cone and the material it is made from until that sound hits a wall and then it exchanges the signature of the speaker cone for the signature of drywall or plaster or wood.  When those surfaces are large and perfectly flat the signature rings across the surface of the the whole wall and becomes dominant.  To hear what I'm talking about listen to YouTube videos of speakers playing at audio shows or speaker demos by people in their homes.

Sound quality is diminished in rooms that have parallel surfaces.  Having furniture and bookcases and hanging tapestries, plants, and anything you can to break up the flat plane of your wall is critical.  What is on the left wall should always be different than what is on the right wall directly across from it.  So if you have a rug on one wall, a bookcase on the other directly across from it rather than another rug.  The surface of the wall is in this way ever changing so many signatures are introduced rather than one dominant one.  Also the varied refraction and absorption for these random placements will improve the imaging and focus.  The exception to this is when you start using quadratic diffusion on the walls, and even then it is staggered so that the wells within the diffuser are never directly across the room from each other.

The biggest change you can make to any untreated room is wall to wall carpet with a thick pile and a thick pad.  Getting specific about the type of pad, one that has large air pockets, will turn your floor into a diaphragmatic absorber that works clear down into the midrange.  It is exactly equal in absorption to those 2 inch thick foam tiles you see in amateur studios. How many foam tiles you ask?  Two of the four walls completely covered from corner to corner and from floor to ceiling.  Word of warning... having even a 12 inch border of hardwood around the room will diminish the effect of the carpet by what sounds like at least 50% or more!  So giant rugs are no where near as effective.  I know this by putting carpet tiles with an integrated thick pad into a room with speakers playing music the whole time.  Starting from a center line in the room and working towards the outside I was able to hear no change even after 90 percent of the carpet was installed due to that reflective right angle border.  Then as the border was filled in the entire space started to change radically.  Also, for the record, a low pile carpet glued down to a floor does absolutely nothing below 13KHz.

If you want something that anyone can do this week, carpet or not, to make the midrange of your speakers sound better, smoother, with better focus and clarity, place one of these rugs directly in front of your speaker so the short edge of the rug touches the base of the speakers front side.  The diagonal pattern and lines are a large part of why this works, but also reduces the pressure wave that stands on the face of your speaker the whole time it is playing.




You can find them on Amazon.  You can expect a similar improvement to what you experienced with your first pair of good interconnects.



Steve

These?

https://www.amazon.com/Door-Mat-Welcome-Entryway-Burgundy/dp/B08JCZDZXZ/ref=sr_1...

Great addition, Groovy. Opening questions some do not know to ask is always beneficial.
Lots of good points.

Back to the rubber backed rugs for a moment; is it the diaphragmatic property of the thin rubber backing that makes these effective for the mid frequency range?

I have ceramic tile on concrete for a floor and I added jute pad and poly wool over it, centered between the walls, hoping for an old school fix used in the '70s and '80s.
Should I pull the rug forward a foot or so, nearer to the speakers, and add this rubber rug over it? Or just make a path to the existing rug?

I'm all in. I want to try anything that helps. I've improved my room dramaticallly from where I started, but I'm nowhere near "there" yet.

Same old DDSteve mentioned that the borders make a significant difference
Quote:

Thanks Met for the above link.

While they would work Steve indicated even if you went wall to wall say 14'x15' = 16 pcs x $23 = $368 it would only be good to 13K hertz

STEVE Quote:


Brad Tempest 62 Quote:
Brad have you got a link or source for the commercial waffle padding and carpet. I spent some time looking for it yesterday.

Quote:


Another absolute with faithful reproduction inside a room.

Great run of words Groovy 👏

Thanks 😊 your Dire Straits story in a different thread prompted a search for the disks on my shelf. It was like listening for the first time all over again with the upgrades of late!

Have a great day 😀

BLo-Fi,

You will find the expense of shipping due to weight is exceedingly expensive. I tried that same route….and went another by contacting about 10 local carpet vendors and found 1 of them that was able to provide the rubberized waffle padding at a little above cost and delivered free. None of the carpet folks carries this stuff, but that 1 of 10 I found locally knew of a commercial contractor that purchased it on large contracts once in awhile since it’s only installed commercially these days….and hopped on that contract with my small order. Pure luck.
 
As for the carpet itself, you just need a decent quality 1/2-3/4” pile. It’s mostly about that padding.

As a side note, I very much dislike wall to wall carpeting. For my listening room a critical exception was made so that this padding would be employed.

Good luck

Brad

Good grief, I feel for you.

No offense to you, is there any way you can get out of that hell hole up there? These days I can’t come up with a single thing that outweighs the long list of unbelievably outrageous negatives that is NYC on every level, not to mention the absurd leadership. And you have to ride around on a bike? It must be suffocation. I’m sorry but I really hope you get out of there asap.

I've lived all over the world. New York is not the greatest city in the world but it is an exciting place to live. I have everything at my fingertips and yes I rode my bicycle near and far but mostly leaving the city and then returning to it. You're entitled to your opinion. My last residence was a home in the Adirondack wilderness Keene Valley New York. Somebody told me variety is the spice of life. Cycling is one of my passions.

So I got a quote $400 worth of padding and rugs would cost me $530 to ship. They can go truck themselves.

Surely that's not the only place in the country that sells that type of commercial padding.

We basically need some padding that is made up of little bubbles that don't pop when you step on them, right?

I would estimate that within fifty miles of my location, there are at least twenty or more fiercely competitive carpet companies. There are five in town, here.
Might be worth a trip to a local installer to see what they have to offer for high traffic areas, besides that foam stuff.

Yup, it’s not expensive.

But it’s really heavy. Thus, freight shipment which is incredibly expensive.

Thanks for that advice. I think most everyone is sensitive to certain chemicals.
Formaldehyde is everywhere!
My daughter orders a nice shirt and opens it up and I insist that she not even try them on before she washes the things.
Back to our rooms.


So what is the best ceiling treatment plan?

I also notice that the "properly treated room" is completely symmetrical in its design. Even the front wall has the diffusion panels flipped to be more perfectly symmetrical.

I have read where you and others advise a more asymmetrical approach to room treatments.

I am curious, if this was your room, would you switch some panels around?

On Sale "Free Shipping" recycled rubber tiles 20"x20" x2"
https://rubbermulch.com/collections/tiles/products/playsafer-elevate-plus-tile-2...
?variant=42503379386603

Great find, JBz!
That L&P Solano product looks very simlar to the Atlanta based company product.


They say it's 90 oz/ sq. yd. That seems fairly dense.