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Open Baffle Room Interaction (Read 2028 times)
Kamran
Seasoned Member
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Posts: 945
Open Baffle Room Interaction
07/30/22 at 00:49:09
 
Hi All,

I’ve been contemplating getting in to open baffles with Lii Audio F15 drivers but wanted to gauge the opinion of current owners of either the Caintuck version or Decware’s Zen Master series, how susceptible either option is with respect to the symmetry of the room.  My front stage is 3/4 covered by a wall and the space to the right of the right speaker is open space as that is the staircase leading in to my basement.  I was speaking to a GIK Acoustics rep recently and he was trying to steer me away from Open baffles since my room is asymmetrical and to stick to a traditional cabinet design.  I’d love to hear thoughts from other members whether this is an acoustics expert being extra cautious and not having personal experience with open baffle designs or is there some serious merit to this guidance.
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Innuos Pulse Streaming Transport and Phoenix Net Switch-Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE DAC-Ic0n4 Autoformer Passive Pre-Sarah 300B SET Amp-ZBIT-GIK Room Treatment-Caintuck Audio Magnum Baffles—Li Audio Fast 15 Drivers-P.I. Audio MajikBuss & Puritan PSM 156 Conditioners
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Mannytheseacow
Ex Member



Re: Open Baffle Room Interaction
Reply #1 - 07/30/22 at 01:18:41
 
Hi, Kamran. I have some DIY OB’s built to Steve’s dimensions. I have a 14 x 28 room, with the baffles on the right half of the long wall, and the left half of the room opens to another 14 x 28 going the other direction. I’ve had several speaker types in this room- planars, boxes, radials, horns… these Lii’s sound the best of what I’ve tried.
I’m sure it depends on user’s preference, with a fair amount of prestige and nostalgia sprinkled on top.
Having had these OBs in several rooms in my house now and listening long to many styles of music I certainly wouldn’t steer anyone away from them. No disrespect to the GIK rep, but in my experience these OB Lii’s are much less particular about placement and phasing issues than something like a Magnepan, Martin Logan, or Carver ribbons.
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Doug
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Posts: 274
Re: Open Baffle Room Interaction
Reply #2 - 07/30/22 at 01:36:47
 
Hey Kamran,

I’ve used three different OB speaker systems in two different rooms during the past 11 to 12 years.  My current listening room is very similar to yours, and slightly smaller than Mannytheseacow’s space.  The three OB speaker pairs were all quite different from one another, but all three worked very well in both rooms.  My personal OB experience has led me to believe that OB speakers have a magical way of making themselves at home pretty much anywhere.  Though I am not using either Caintuck or Zen Master speakers, I have no hesitation in saying Go For It!
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Jay’s CD2T-Mk3
Denafrips Pontus II
ZROCK2 25th Mods
CSP3 25th & Custom Mods
PAP Quintets with Voxativ 1.6
First Watt J2 or Cary 300SEI
driving Voxativs—no crossover
LFD NCSE driving 15” Woofers
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Kamran
Seasoned Member
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Posts: 945
Re: Open Baffle Room Interaction
Reply #3 - 07/30/22 at 01:59:21
 
Thanks Mannytheseacow and Doug for your quick feedback! I’m breathing a sigh of relief after reading about your respective OB speaker experiences.  I wonder (to play it safe) to start with Randy’ at Caintuck’s OB speakers and if they work good in the room, perhaps think about upgrading to the Zen Master series.  The one thing I like about the Zen Master is the size.  Besides making a sonic impact, I’d like the speakers to make a visual impact in the room—a statement piece if you will.  That said, the Zen Master series is many times the price of Caintuck.  Can’t wait to attend Decfest for the first time and listen to these speakers in person and meeting some of you guys there!
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Innuos Pulse Streaming Transport and Phoenix Net Switch-Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE DAC-Ic0n4 Autoformer Passive Pre-Sarah 300B SET Amp-ZBIT-GIK Room Treatment-Caintuck Audio Magnum Baffles—Li Audio Fast 15 Drivers-P.I. Audio MajikBuss & Puritan PSM 156 Conditioners
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Same Old DD
Seasoned Member
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Posts: 1062
Re: Open Baffle Room Interaction
Reply #4 - 07/30/22 at 04:22:25
 
One BIG thing about open baffle presentation that is often alluded to but rarely followed up on is that a large part of normal room nodes are not as much of a bother, because they are not even created to begin with.

I have been using open baffle speakers for over twenty years now.
I have lost my fear.
I still have some boxes around, but those are not what I listen to on a daily basis.

I am having a really tough time stopping listening to my cheap-ass particle board mock ups long enough to make progress on building them out the right way.
I need to buy some big wood and re-do what is working for me, using proper thick hardwoods.
I don't have simple planar OB set up, but a compiled mix of two opposing designs and it sounds really great to my old ears. I need to do it up right. I will be even happier.

I have found some oak I can use, even some green walnut really cheap, but other things are in the way of fun these days, as always.
The fresh cut walnut will take a couple of years to be ready to shape. Oak is more expensive, but seasoned and ready to cut.
Waffling a bit still.

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SE84Cs Mono'ed, Lii Audio F15 OB, W15 "H" Frame Subwoofer, McIntosh MC2500, Lazarus Pre, Dual TT, Ortofon, Kleenline Iso Power, Revox, Crown R-R, Pioneer Elite Digital Source
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Doug
Seasoned Member
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Posts: 274
Re: Open Baffle Room Interaction
Reply #5 - 07/30/22 at 04:42:17
 
Same Old DD,

Are you using four 2235’s per side or two per side?

I know what you mean about not going forward with proper buildout.  I had a pair of Decware FRX2 drivers thrown up on two 24” x 48” pieces of plywood, along with a pair of Eminence Alpha 15A woofers, and they sounded really good. They were in my family room for months, until my incredibly patient wife finally asked me to remove them.

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Jay’s CD2T-Mk3
Denafrips Pontus II
ZROCK2 25th Mods
CSP3 25th & Custom Mods
PAP Quintets with Voxativ 1.6
First Watt J2 or Cary 300SEI
driving Voxativs—no crossover
LFD NCSE driving 15” Woofers
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armstdav
Seasoned Member
****




Posts: 177
Re: Open Baffle Room Interaction
Reply #6 - 07/30/22 at 05:25:54
 
Kamran,

I have a very asymmetrical living room with 10' from right speaker to wall and a dining area behind, versus 1' from left speaker to wall, and it's very shallow with our seating position 6' from the speakers.

Between Merrill Zigmahornets, home built Decware DNAs, and Caintuck Lii 15s, the Caintucks are the easy winner. Better soundstage and better overall tonality; the Ziggies sound pale in comparison, and the DNAs are great but need a bigger room to shine.

I haven't heard the F-15 driver in a bigger baffle, but I can only imagine it's even better, and will definitely be more visually impressive than the Caintucks.

David
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Same Old DD
Seasoned Member
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Posts: 1062
Re: Open Baffle Room Interaction
Reply #7 - 07/30/22 at 05:46:10
 
Hi, Doug,

I have four of them I got as blown out driver baskets over the years, two from eBay and I re-coned them, not to JBL specification, but to be a little more usable as open back drivers. Raising the Qts spec and lowering the Fs were my goals. It worked OK. I have Qts in the .46 range (near as I can figure) and Fs at 16Hz (easy to measure).

I use two on each side, but I have recently re-done my baffle in a new way. Partly to lower the full range driver height, but also to take advantage of the fact I now have a tile on concrete floor in my new home. Solid surface to exploit.
I finally have my own room!! Not shared.

I have one driver on each side facing the floor at an angle, firing downward which I have seperated into subwoofer duties with a seperate amplifier and crossover.
The other 15'' on each side is positioned just below the full range 8'' bringing the 8'' to ear level at my seated position.

I had them going as 2x15'' vertically stacked with an 8" full range above on each side for several years.
I felt the need to lower the 8'' down to ear level a little better and the new home and solid floor, I came up with this idea and I am pleased so far.
It allows my monos to work just under 4 Ohms and an additional amp to handle the bottom presentation.

I should mention that I have the two 15'' drivers' magnets connected physically in each baffle. I used a rubber donut at first to make them one source of low frequencies, but I have made a solid wood "adapter" to connect the two magnets. They are basically seeing the same signal, just that one has more power and doesn't respond as high. That subwoofer 15'' is crossed at 48Hz. I'm still working on getting that crossover point right.

It sounds great, but I have bricks to add mass to the set up, due to my dodgy particle board mock up, third trial after errors. I have the angles right, finally, but I need to build something I would be glad to show my friends and my mom.

I hate the bricks!
I want all good wood! I want it sanitary! I want it like making Mr. Clean proud sanitary!

I am not there yet.
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SE84Cs Mono'ed, Lii Audio F15 OB, W15 "H" Frame Subwoofer, McIntosh MC2500, Lazarus Pre, Dual TT, Ortofon, Kleenline Iso Power, Revox, Crown R-R, Pioneer Elite Digital Source
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Kamran
Seasoned Member
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Posts: 945
Re: Open Baffle Room Interaction
Reply #8 - 07/30/22 at 06:38:16
 
Thanks for sharing your experiences armstdav and Same Old DD. My confidence in OB is building by each successive feedback!
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Innuos Pulse Streaming Transport and Phoenix Net Switch-Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE DAC-Ic0n4 Autoformer Passive Pre-Sarah 300B SET Amp-ZBIT-GIK Room Treatment-Caintuck Audio Magnum Baffles—Li Audio Fast 15 Drivers-P.I. Audio MajikBuss & Puritan PSM 156 Conditioners
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Same Old DD
Seasoned Member
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Posts: 1062
Re: Open Baffle Room Interaction
Reply #9 - 07/30/22 at 07:47:07
 
Kamran, If I was starting today trying open back designs for the first time, I would take a simpler approach.

My pleasure has come about over a long time and began well before many had even tried to hear the differences using speakers without a box.
My eye opening phases came in my youth from fixing old radios with my dad, many of which had large speakers in an open back semi-enclosure.

I have not heard the Lii 15s, but I have heard enough from some folks I respect and trust to not steer me wrong, to make me just get some and live with them for a bit. Just to see for myself.
That is the only way I can assess things like speakers. I have to have them in my own hands and hear them my way.

I can not recommend the Lii drivers personally, because I have not heard them, but my curiousity is so high, that when I can, I plan to own a pair and see for myself.

That is how and why I bought my first Decware product. I finally just said, OK, what's all this noise about?  ... and bought one.
Now, it's impossible to go back. So I got another and another.

If you can find a way to hear some of the gear you want to try, do so. If not, that Leap Of Faith thing comes into play or as the old horrible saying goes, "suck it and see" ... or consider that the entire process is like going on a date. How much have we all spent on dates?

You don't have to pay alimony if you decide a speaker does not do what you want.
The best part of that quip is that you are the Judge!

Grin
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SE84Cs Mono'ed, Lii Audio F15 OB, W15 "H" Frame Subwoofer, McIntosh MC2500, Lazarus Pre, Dual TT, Ortofon, Kleenline Iso Power, Revox, Crown R-R, Pioneer Elite Digital Source
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Kamran
Seasoned Member
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Posts: 945
Re: Open Baffle Room Interaction
Reply #10 - 07/31/22 at 01:48:15
 
Same Old DD,

I really appreciate your counsel and laughing out loud at the alimony quip.  ;D
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Innuos Pulse Streaming Transport and Phoenix Net Switch-Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE DAC-Ic0n4 Autoformer Passive Pre-Sarah 300B SET Amp-ZBIT-GIK Room Treatment-Caintuck Audio Magnum Baffles—Li Audio Fast 15 Drivers-P.I. Audio MajikBuss & Puritan PSM 156 Conditioners
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