So, I placed an order for a zp3, as an afterthought when I ordered the mk5 and csp3. Wasn’t sure I was going to go down the vinyl route. Have a Cambridge streamer modded with tubes from ModWright and a CD player. I got the call from Decware that the zp3 is on the bench! Called to confirm and sure enough, someone who ordered one with the exact mods cancelled. Now I’m receiving the phono stage before any other Decware equipment. Not really convinced I want to start listening to vinyl. I tentatively settled on the Rega Planar 6 with the Exact 2 cartridge. A couple of questions;
1. Anyone familiar with this unit and how it pairs with Decware gear?
2. Does vinyl add “enough” to justify the cost? I know worth it is very subjective.
3. Does anyone enjoy vinyl so much more than streaming and cd through a quality dac unit?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions or feedback.

if you have never ever dipped your toe into the vinyl pool ?? be aware ( dont fear) that there are alot of bumps in the road with vinyl lp's . Along with the joy of a good play can also bring some disappointments as well like surface noise ( various degrees ), inner groove distortion , jumping/skipping grooves for whatever reason etc etc ....oh and the cost . I just bought a mfsl kind of blue from a friend who bought it new and was frustrated that it had numerous loud pops n ticks . I agree it is kind of hard to listen to but then again my ears can adjust to noisy used soul , country records ( that i play on lesser gear) so......  alot of heartbreaks as well as joys in collecting/listening to vinyl. Just be accepting of a few moments of ugly to go along with all the analog beauty.

I have thousands of lp's and at least 8 turntables but still every day I wonder if I should just stick to cd play ( i dont stream) . So far ? well I am going crate digging today  :)

Pretty sure you'd have no problem reselling the zp3 if you changed your mind.

adding to CAJames , thats also a fun bonus finding cheap lp's so its always nice to have a table around. you never know when you're going to stumble upon a nice little score for not much money then all of a sudden you have alot of new music to listen to.

Thanks guys.
It’s nice to hear Lon when others use the same or similar equipment. My buddy is one of those who prefer vinyl. He’s trying to suck me into his world!
Kahuna Jack you addressed one of my concerns. I’m sure I will enjoy the positive attributes of vinyl. The big concern is the pops and hiss that comes with the territory. It makes me want to deal with “near mint” only which drives up the cost considerably. Which parallels CAJames’s comments. I have no vinyl so would be starting from scratch.
I do not want to be one of the guys who buys Decware and sells it during times like these, long wait times and growing popularity. I suppose if I sell I would sell for cost or less.
I appreciate the advice gentlemen.

I'm a vinyl first listener that just recently added a DAC for file listening. I don't own a CD player! Digital is getting really close. For me there's just something about the "air' or "space" of vinyl playback that tickles my soul and ears just right, I have not heard that with a DAC yet.

I've found that vinyl playback with my Decware amp will expose the slightest of issues in regards to turntable setup. If something is out of whack, it will come through on playback. When I first got my SE84 I thought the amp was just not a match for my setup where as with other amps everything sounded ok. After spending time re-setting up my table it's been very rewarding.

Be honest with yourself, do you have the patience to spend time making minute changes with delicate items? Good eyes? Steady hands? Dialing in arm height, tracking force, anti skate, overhang, azimuth, etc...

Then comes the media itself. Not ALL records sound good, some are horribly pressed, rushed, not mixed great or come from some crap record plant in the EU. Dust, pops, clicks. I've rebuilt a wrecked VPI record cleaner and have an ultrasonic cleaner setup. While these aren't necessary, if you have OCD like me it's just one more added expense.

Can't answer your first question, but for 2 & 3 it's a resounding Yes. Not trying to scare you out of it, this has just been my experience. IMO vinyl requires more setup and patience and getting up to change records every 15-20 minutes, but the juice IS worth the squeeze for me.

Quote:


Agree. The better your cartridge/arm/table are the more music it will dig out of the groves and the better the signal to noise ratio. Which is what really bums me out about current production records: brand new they sound way worse than my 40,50 even 60 year old LPs that have been played 100s of times.

If I read the original post correctly, there are two (and perhaps three) very different questions embedded in it.  They generate three very distinct answers.  I have 7 turntables, including a Rega, and a variety of digital sources from mundane to high quality. I will add to the discussion what I can.

1. Does the ZP3, and other Decware gear, pair well with vinyl generally?  In my experience, the answer is "Yes, beyond doubt." I've used the ZP3 with multiple turntables, including most recently, two Thorens TD124s and a TD125, all with excellent results. The ZP3/TD125 combination delivers the best sound I've ever gotten from a truly outstanding table, particularly when it's coupled with the Caintuck Audio Lii F15s. The same was true for a decidedly more modern ClearAudio Champion. The ZP3 also performed well with the TD124, though I ultimately replaced it with a battery powered Dodd Audio phono stage that was more forgiving for MC cartridges.

2.  Does Decware gear pair well with the Rega RP 6?
While I don't have an RP6, I have tried the ZP3 with other Rega gear and would echo others that the Decware gear does perfectly well with it.

3.  Most importantly, should you make a bigger investment in vinyl?

From your description and your comments, probably not.  

For my own part, I love vinyl.  No matter how I've tried, and what digital sources I've used, I have yet to find digital sources that can do for me what good vinyl does.  The presence, the clarity, the holographic soundstages, the feeling of having the performer right in the room with you, and the sense of the original performance venue itself materializing around you--I have never gotten that from digital sources in the way I have from vinyl, even when everything else in the signal path is the same--or is ostensibly optimized for digital.  As a result, and despite constant experimentation, vinyl is the medium that makes me happiest.

But it is also a constant pain in the ass. Getting vinyl right means worrying not only about phono amps, and tubes, and speaker placement--just like everybody else--but about tonearm resonances, cartridge matching, step up amplifiers, overhang, alignment, vertical tracking force, vertical tracking angles, headshell and tonearm connections, and the endless quest for ever better cartridges.  Then you add the process of keeping both the records and the stylus clean--more machines, solutions, and (surprisingly endless) debates about gear and techniques.

The sound can be spectacular. But getting and keeping it right can become expensive and time consuming very quickly, and can play to the most OCD aspects of audiophilia, if you aren't very careful.  

So, if you were at the beginning of your audio journey and considering experimenting with vinyl, I'd say go for it.  There's nothing to lose but time and money.  But if you've been at this for a while already, and are already a bit hesitant about taking the leap, my guess is your instincts are right.  Vinyl will add more costs, more headaches, more obsessions, and maybe (just maybe) at the end of the day, a little better sound. But in time you take getting somewhere truly new, you could have just been listening to music.

My two cents as a true vinyl lover.

Thanks for the response cmdc. I am hesitant. I blow money on all sorts of hobbies, so it’s not that. It’s just the timing. I have spent a considerable amount recently on equipment and was planning this for a year or 2 from now after the dust settled. I was not prepared for the pre amp that I ordered just a month ago to come so soon! Good problems I know but between the preamp, turntable and various other pieces of equipment, I’m looking at 5-6 grand. I could wait and let that beautiful preamp sit in the box for a year or so. Not very likely! I know myself. Sell it or use it is my speed. Patience is an attribute I struggle to exhibit.

Sounds like good advice SameOld DD. Thank you. I think patience is the most prudent choice right now.

I think that turntables and vinyl can be a money pit if you don't approach it in a certain way.
I am running a Rega Planar 9 with Rega Exact into a ZP3. That nice .6mv output elminates the need for a SUT and extra set of cables.
The Rega is a plug and play turntable with the Exact, so that eliminates a lot of setup hassle and purchasing of setup tools.
My floor is concrete, so vibration is no real concern.
There are tons of so-called audiophile lps out there for cheap. Don't fixate on the new and shiny 180 gram audiophile reissue stuff. They can be good, but there is a whole world of great sounding recordings to be had for under ten bucks. They still aren't in demand, and that's to your advantage.
I will say, the Decware really reveals all the good in bad of lp pressings. The good ones sound great and the bad ones sound like turds.

1. Yes the two are a pair in heaven.
2. Yes, but very subjective as you noted.
3. I don't.

You seem to have a very good setup now for digital. As many have noted it will be a big undertaking to start from scratch. From the cost of equipment and time finding good vinyl, an audiophile would need a good bit of determination to begin and substain a course of success.

My 2.
Vinyl puts the actors in the room; an intimate setting. Digital puts the listener at the venue at a loss of intimacy.

John

That’s an interesting way to put it JBZen, in the room vs at the venue. Makes it more tempting now! Thanks

metropolis7 says" I think that turntables and vinyl can be a money pit if you don't approach it in a certain way."

thats a fact , Ive worked in record stores and a regular scenario is customers accumulate a stack of records while digging to the sum of maybe $300-400 ?? by the time they are checking out at the register they have maybe 1 new lp and a couple used $30-50. Now the cd shoppers?? lol well lets say $50 can buy you alot of music out of the used bins.

I guess it comes down to disposable/liquid cash situation and passionate heat for the vinyl hobby

I did a local search Kahuna Jack and found a few record stores quite close to me. I figured I’d check it out and see the prices. I have an inexpensive turntable my buddy gave me to start if need be. Will have to do some more reconnaissance!

I didn’t take it that way Same Old DD. I appreciate the response and I try to learn from everyone’s input. Cheers

Jackpot John! I wasn’t as lucky as you but was pleasantly surprised at a local shop. Found many good records but put on a Sonny Boy Williamson double lp that was in fantastic shape for $20, which was negotiable according to the owner. Place had a nice vibe and the owner said prices drop at the register! Only drawback was sound was through one very tiny bookshelf Klipsch, the other being on the sidewalk outside. All in all a good time. Enjoy those new records.

The ZP3 was my first Decware "pill".
It was a revelation. Grain-free sound for the first time. Slowly but surely, piece by piece, I ended up building an entire system around Decware. It just happens when you get a taste of the good stuff.

For records, great sounding classical can still be found in the dollar bin. A lot of mass produced 70s-80s pop and singer songwriter has fantastic sound quality and can still be found cheap.

One of the features about the JVC QL-F4 turntable is it's ability to repeat an album up to 6 times or infinity. This is a very usable feature with Decware or tubes in general. With CDs, the sixth track will start to bloom after tube warmup. With the JVC the second play of an album signals for my return to do some serious enjoyable listening. I'll usually set it on three repeat plays giving me some time to finish up what is at hand and be seated for the third play.

Ebay has a listing for a QL-A7 at the moment that I almost pulled the trigger on but it is a semi automatic player without repeat. It has a heavier platter and a little different antiskating setting but the same tonearm/suspension. I think that 1978 JVC turntables with quartz lock are some of the best direct drive turntables ever made. The QL-A7 is listed at 299.00 plus shipping. It has a heavier platter than the F4 at 2.7lb as compared to the 4.4lb on the A7. The listed F7 has some issues that seem to be minor as compared to the claimed great condition.

I added 6 bars of boxed Dove hand soap on top of a magic eraser speared by the spindle on the F4. The startup to stabilization only slowed by a small fraction of a second and stayed rock solid as normal. I will have to carefully add some weight when finally doing a revamp on this gem. All the '78 QL series used the same motor and platter suspension but with varied enhancements to other features.

I have no connection with the ebayer that lists the A7. Just wanted to bring it too light here for someone looking for a turntable and likes to tinker.

John

Thanks Kamran. My use will probably be a bit more limited as yours. My plan is to focus on jazz and blues for records. I’m glad you get some joy from the records.

Quote:


Well, not all shiny vinyl plays well! This was one of the $2 albums in my purchase the other day.



It looked to be in excellent shape but is almost unlistenable with all the pops and hiss. No skips Could just be embedded dirt in the grooves. Will try a good cleaning before pitching. Another part of the vinyl experience! Win some loose some in the used record search

The KAB EV 1 is $149, now and very good investment I think. I've had one for about two years.
Before that I used a DIY thing made from a crack attachment and a couple of carbon fiber brushes hooked to a vac. It worked well, but it was clunky!
This one is so much easier to work.

As Joe says, any new or used LPs get a good cleaning and vacuum before I even try them.
That's an old lesson re-learned a few times.

I have been looking at cleaning devices as well during my turntable search. I figured I’d use the spinning through the liquid one, sorry I forgot the name and a vacuum device. Glad you mentioned the Kav EV 1 Same Old DD. Will look into it. I also came across the service wear you mail in the records and they clean them both physically and sonically. Seems like a decent idea if you have a limited number of records. I thought it might be a good way to get the best out of older records and then I could just maintain after that.

Earthbound, I think you're talking about the Spin Clean. It was invented about 15 miles from where I'm sitting. The big knock on them is you spin the record back through dirty water.

A couple friends have this one and seem to like it:
https://squeakycleanvinyl.com/products/squeakycleanvinyl-mk-iii

Once upon a time I built one. I used an old turntable platter and spindle, bunch of old shop vac fittings, etc. It worked ok, but after some time I found having to spin the platter manually with one hand and all the cleaning with the other was a bit clunky.


Through a local forum I found all the parts to a VPI record cleaner, the box was destroyed from not drying it off. I rebuilt it and use it way more than the ultrasonic cleaner.



And then there is this guy: He even shows you how to delete a track.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZBwyVXJRdI

I needed a good laugh today and the last link in Sean's post is hilarious 🤣

Hey Joe, (Where you goin with that gun in yo hand?…)

I kid  

Seriously though, I have a KAB modded SL-1210, and did not know about the record cleaner they offer. Thanks so much for posting the link! I just ordered one.

Very best,

Geno

This guy uses a $30 vinyl vac as a core for a production level DIY cleaning machine. Lot of good ideas in this video.

https://youtu.be/U1Au-WFeWQ8

Hmmmm, there is an old disco ball motor laying around in my stash somewhere and maybe that old lazy susan used on a old platform that held a tubed kitchen counter TV has not been discarded. And...that one gallon shop vac in the motorhome....here I go

I like the box he built for the vac! Adding something similar to my project list. I have the exact same Armour All vac I use. I originally bought it for my fine sander.

BJ, how do you address static elimination?
I still have a forty year old Zero Stat I have kept. I have a more modern one I bought wondering if my old one was wearing out and they seem to both work a bit, about the same.

I also tried a drop of Rain-X in my rinse when deep cleaning for the first time. Read about it somewhere online, but it seems to help for about two plays in conjunction with the Zero Stat. Whereas the Zero Stat alone sometimes does not last a whole play, especially in winter here when you get shocked just getting up out of your chair.

I worry about a product NOT designed specifically for vinyl, though. Rain-X is for glass.
I have also used Rain-X on CDs with decent results, not really worried about the polycarbonate layer, but my buffing them back to a mirror sheen works better on iffy CDs.
We're not talking about CDs, though.

I have done the spritz the floor with fabric softener thing, which helps some for about twenty minutes, maybe.

How do you eliminate static on your LPs?

Yes, I have felt that charge.
In fact, I have actually had fun turning the system up and playing with that charge as if it were a Theremin as a nonsense distraction/demonstration at times.
It makes some interesting Doppler noises I use to demonstrate static to friends at times, helping them to understand where some of those crackles come from.

And my cat! If she even approaches my table stand and rubs against the rack, you can hear it. As far as I can tell, everything I have is grounded well. But the charge is between the ground and the air, the way I understand it all.

You can also "play" the static sometimes by just lifting your tonearm and allow it to sit above your spinning disc and you can hear what nightmares are embedded in your reproduction, especially in winter here.
You can also clearly hear the effect of the Zero Stat, just energizing it near the table.

Static can be troubling.
So you don't "stat" the table? Curious.
I find that the Static Guard type products on the floor help quite a bit, but the effect does not last long.
We carry a tremendous charge with us every move we make. I don't know if it's a positive or negative build up and discharge, but noticing it all is quite common.

Have we talked everyone out of using vinyl, yet?

I'll check out the vid.

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

Quote:


Found mine at a flea market 20 some years ago. Use it dry before and after plays as well as brush the needle. Still in very good shape.

Quote:


Glad you clarified that. My chin growth is about half as long as his

Will add the zero stat gun to my short list. Something that costs 4Xs more and needs held in one hand while being rotated 5mm above a record held with the other hand seems haphazard.

Going back to the static questions for a moment ... I have tried three platter mats that are supposed to eliminate static issues, but I really don't notice much difference between them and the stock platter mat that came on my Duals.
I'm using an accessory mat now, but mainly because my old original one was getting old.

Has anyone found one that helps with static?

The JVC F4 12" thick matt is heavily ribbed on the back side and seems to totally eliminate ringing of the machined platter when in place. After 44 years there is no sign of deterioration. We have hard wood floors and a central humidifier for winter use. Along with summer AC the house stays between 45 and 50 percent relative humidity all year. My listening room does have commercial indoor/outdoor carpet with a felt pad. Static is not a problem in my space. Sure some is generated and stored with album stock paper sleeves of which I have a plan to address.

It might be a mistake to change a factory engineered matt on a turntable. Unless of course it is damaged or wore out from abuse.  

 

 This is an interesting thread. I bet every house can have different static 'triggers'. For example, I have wood floors, but when I wear my shoes (rubber sole) and walk across a 2 foot wide area rug, the static is incredible! Barefoot, no problem. Then there is the fact that probably everything has some sort of charge to it. Distances, combinations, humidity and so much more will have an effect. Seems endless. All in all, I am fortunate in that the static doesn't pop as I play vinyl. I will say though, as soon as I take the record off of the TT, dust races to the surface of the record. I do own a Zero stat but have been using it improperly. I forgot about not using it with the record on the TT. Rats. Too many rules.
In those days where a ray of sunlight shows the dust in the air, you get a better idea of what you are up against. I like the idea of a vacuum record cleaner, but wonder just how much dust is stirred up by the exhaust.
You guys remember the white paper written, something like aquas cleaning of vinyl records or something like that? It is over 40 pages long and goes into the microscopic process of really cleaning the vinyl. I go for part of that stretch, but won't take it all the way.
I actually sent a few albums to PVF (Perfect Vinyl Forever) to have them cleaned beyond any ability that I have here. The result was good, but I think it is beyond my wants.

I can understand his point with an all-in-one front end feeding the amp. The Cambridge CXVn2 with the ModWright mod fed into the SE84UFO25 would fit well into his idealistic banter. The formentioned along with a set of HDTs or DNAs would be great for a renter or condo owner and sound pretty darn good.
His view fits well into the the millennium crowd.

Vinly has that unmistakable ability to bring intimacy into the listening experience without unnecessary or excessive cost. Vinyl is a regimented practice that must be embraced to be successful.

Variety is the spice of life. We look at screens all day long. So, it is nice to pick up an album, go thru the routine of spinning it, and sit down listening while reading/looking at the old school media

What grit sandpaper will you use?

check this out

TEAC TN-5BB MANUAL BELT-DRIVE TURNTABLE
A high-performance belt-drive analog turntable with XLR outputs, the TEAC TN-5BB turntable delivers precision sound for your favorite records.


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Prp-Ject X8 True Balanced Connection  $2499
https://youtu.be/0rjVMVewcM8
We’re launching a whole line of new “True Balanced Connection” components that feature a balanced connection for your phono setup. The X8 is our first turntable to feature this new phono technology.

Turntables look back on a long history. Over time, many things have changed, not only from technical possibilities, but also from the environment. Wireless networks are omni present and countless electronic devices make your home „smarter“. This means there are now a lot of additional electromagnetic fields, which could interfere with your turntable‘s signal. This was simply not the case 30 years ago. To ensure the best connection to your phono preamplifier we designed our „True Balanced Connection“.


Pro-Ject X8 True Balanced TT WHAT'S TRUE BALANCED?

Balanced audio connections are usually known from the professional sector like recording studios or live concerts. It is very important to have a stable & interference free connection, as these signals will be highly amplified. The same applies to the connection from your turntable to the phono preamplifier. The big advantage of a balanced connection is its ability to remove picked up noise and interferences. And best of all, cartridges by nature are already balanced signal transducers! With True Balanced your are simply using everything, literally everything, that your cartridge is picking up from the record groove. You are not throwing away half of the usable signal, like is done in typical single-ended RCA phono connections.

The X8 comes with a 5pin output jack and with our standard semi-balanced Connect it Phono E 5P -> RCA cable. By upgrading it to our fully balanced 5P to XLR version (available separately) and using a balanced phono stage, like our Phono Box DS3 B or any of our RS/RS2 phono stages, you are fully set-up for the True Balanced experience. This leads to increased dynamics, less noise and improved signal to noise ratios. You can imagine it, like hearing parts of your music that literally were not there before.

"Pro-Ject is hanging its X8 hat on “true-balanced” connectivity, all the way from the cartridge to the phono stage. According to Pro-Ject, any pre-mounted moving coil cartridge – including the factory-fitted Ortofon – will dispatch a balanced signal via the Austrian company’s 5-pin output jack when adapted to XLR with a 5P/XLR cable (sold separately). In the box, we get a semi-balanced Connect-it E 5P/RCA fly-lead.

Wanted to get this thread back in sight. Spent yesterday working on this project collecting dust! It's been setting on the radial arm saw nawing on my mind every time pulling in the garage with the car. Maybe I'll get her done today






John

Ah yes the joy of vinyl. Found that the Zrock can enhance some of those old earier releases guite well.

100 done....200 to go. This setup really does clean and improve the sound well!

Thanks Sean.

100 albums took a very long day with enough time to piss and eat! It takes about 9 minutes each doing both sides and slipping into Hudson sleeves. Not a night and day difference in sound, but the cleaning does dramatically reduce background noise.

John