I have a loaded MKV on order with a csp325c ZP3, zrock2 for record play only with efficient speakers.

After reading a hundred glowing reviews on the UFO25, I'm wondering how the MKV might compare to two UFO25s used as monoblocks. I enjoy weight to my music, listen to a lot of rock, and like a decent hitting bass. But the liquidity of the UFOs are also quite appealing.

If anyone might have any pros or cons to offer on the variations between these two systems, I'd sure appreciate it! I'd love to drive over for a listening session, but that's not possible in the immediate future.

Thanks!

I do listen to a fair amount of jazz. To be honest, I'm kind of all over the board. Aren't you running mono UFOs, Lon? How would you describe their bass presentation with an album, such as Steely Dan's Gaucho? I'm curious if a track such as "Hey Nineteen," will shake the room as it will on a 20WPC amp?

I'm not a basshead by any stretch, but I do enjoy a full frequency presentation with a meaty low end.

Decisions are hard, but these are decisions I'm most thankful to have!

the Torii is a push-pull design, where the SE84 variants are single ended.  The Torii is more dynamic - period.  This especially becomes more important as the efficiency of partnering speakers goes down.  I have owned both and I kept the Torii, it just sounds more like "live" music to me - especially at low volumes.  The SE amps definitely have their charms too.  You choose your priorities and you makes your decisions - or you just get/have/keep both and have more "toys" to play with to match your mood at any particular point in time.  I go through "periods" of time where I listen predominantly to one type of music and I adjust my system for the best synergy for whatever type of music I'm listening to at the time. 

I have owned the Decware 945's, I currently have two variations of the Betsy Baffles, and I have custom Hawthorne Audio Trio's, which I have run the Hawthorne 15" coaxial in the middle(full range) position of the baffles.  And I replaced the coaxials with Audio Nirvana SCF-15" ferrite drivers.  And I have recently replaced the Audio Nirvana's with Lii Audio 15's.  The AN drivers are very sensitive, in the 99 db 1w/1m vicinity, and the Torii driving these brings the performers "into the room" like no other speakers I've ever owned.  The Lii's are a little more refined sounding in the upper mids and into the treble (as far as they go) but seem to be a bit less sensitive than the Audio Nirvana's.

For a comparison, I also have a pair of Martin Logan electrostats, the Vista model.  These driven by 100's of watts of class A/B or Class D amplification do not even begin to compare to the OB Trio's w/Audio Nirvana or Lii Audio drivers driven by my Torii. when it comes to just about everything, resolution, dynamics, low-volume liveliness, etc.  In fact, one of my audio buddies, nicknamed my electrostats "slow-gans" after hearing the Torii and Trio OB's with the AN drivers.  The electrostats will "get it done", but you have to really turn up the volume to begin to approach the Torii and modified OB Hawthorne Trio's.  But they never quite make it all the way "there".

You just need to try and hear combinations of both, and choose what you like best.  Nobody can tell you, what you will like best.  We can only share our "subjective" experiences and opinions.  YMWV.


P.S. my Torii is a MK.III.  it has the output cap upgrade and stepped attenuator.  I have A/B'd it to a MK.IV - and I like the III better for crossover-less, full range, high efficiency speakers.  I don't anticipate ever parting with my Torii III.  I have a friend who also has a Torii III, and he recently told me that he planned on "having it buried with him"..
He pairs his Torii with Betsy Baffles with the Wild Burro Betsy W.O.W. driver and the Dayton OB AMT tweeter.  This is one of best speakers I've ever heard - cost not considered - though they are dirt cheap by audiophile standards.  Sub/s required IMO.  
And my Trio's have two 15" Hawthorne Augie's per baffle - 4 total = mid-bass weight, space and presence you can feel - even at low volumes.
Get the highs and mid's where you like, and then add bass if you feel the need.  But there is a reason "they say" bass is the foundation.  I don't know that I necessarily agree with that 100%.  I think you need a "balance" that floats your own boat across the entire frequency range.  After all we are all "individuals" and we each hear and perceive sound a little differently and place different priorities on the various aspects.

Whatever blows your hair back - is all that should matter to you.

So I haven't heard the Torii either, but I have a pair of UFOs (with with anniversary mods, not the UFO25) configured as balanced mono blocs. And for me in my smallish room with Omega Super AlNiCo Monitors the bass is everything I need for Zeppelin to Bruckner to the Buddy Rich big band. But truthfully I'm not really a bass head and the speed and transparency of the amps is what I value the most. They are so good that I ordered a pair of UFO25s 5 months ago because, I guess, I want to see if I can get even more of the speed and transparency and maybe even more LF extension thrown in.

As long as your speakers are sensitive enough to work well with the UFOs (mine are advertised as 94 dB in a smallish room) I don't think you can go wrong with either.

I think "the well is dry" because as of yet there aren't too many of the Mk IVs out there yet. Give it some time. . . .

As others have said. There are people who prefer the SET sound and people who prefer the Push-Pull sound. I suggest you go with your first instinct, the MKV.

I love my Torii MKIV and I have a Torii MKV on order. The MKIV is going into a second system. I’m looking forward to learning the differences between the two versions. 

As I write this, I have an UFO25TH on loan and my Torii is sitting next to me, enjoying a different perspective.

I’m still rolling tubes on the UFO25TH. I’m waiting on a OD3 which might be the magic ticket. Once I get the OD3 and tweak it a bit more. I’ll report back.

When you say emulating SET characteristics, I’m not sure what you mean by that.

Bluemage makes a great point and after reading this thread I am compelled to make a comment.  When people at the Decware family table say they like the push pull sound vs single ended I think it means the feeling of headroom and a touch more bass slam with many speakers.  This makes sense because it is 10x the power.  BUT, at a particular listening volume with 94dB speakers on up, I don't notice a big difference in dynamics, weight, speed, or anything else between our SET amps and the Push Pulls... at least not enough to make me want to switch from on to the other.  Now, when I listen to the less efficient speakers, even though I am VOLUME MATCHED between the low power and the higher power push pull I gravitate towards the push pull because it manages the higher moving mass and crossover components better.  On crossover-less stuff that is 100dB it's incredibly hard to tell any difference between the two amps until you start to turn things up loud.  I call it the 1dB per beer equation where you increase the volume by 1 dB after each beer, which takes about an hour.  Makes for a short night with 2 watts since you likely started near max power.

So back to Bluemage's point, this is why when you have dynamic 100dB speakers with no crossovers, it is so hard to tell the amps apart, and when you have higher mass drivers and crossovers the additional leverage of push-pull becomes useful.


BTW, twin UFO25's in fully differential balanced mode is very compelling.,    and again, on 94dB on up that combination sounds as good or better than a ZMA or TORII.  

This would be a completely different conversation if the harmonics of all these amps were wildly different, especially the Push Pull amplifiers.

Also, the Decware amplifiers are all pretty much designed to drive real world impedances without getting their panties in a bunch every time the impedance drops really low.  This gives a good sense of drive at low volume with most speakers.

-Steve

For me the choice between a MKV and monoblocked UFO25s is a once in a lifetime decision. Once made, that's the system, and after that I'll be listening to the music, not to other gear (mixing and matching gear and "listening critically" instead of just listening drove me out of my first audiophile phase years ago...just as working for Hollywood mostly killed my interest in filmed entertainment, since it's hard to enjoy content when I'm "screening" it, noticing the random mic boom in the frame & etc.).

W/o access to demo units, I made my decision (second- and third-guessing myself along the way and probably driving Sarah nuts in the process) by spending a lot of time reading the forums and Steve's development blogs.

His very lucid comment above the lack of difference between MKV and mono UFO25s notwithstanding, I have to say, I get the distinct impression from comments he has dropped here and there that he would regard monoblocked UFO25s with CSP325 preamplification as the pinnacle, at least on points. With 6 watts/channel and the benefits of short-short speaker cable, I think there will be enough "there" to work with.

Short speaker cable length thanks to monoblocking is a major factor in the decision. I read something by Nelson Pass years ago where he more or less said that 6 inches of zipcord is probably just as good as 8 feet of high-end speaker cable, but even better is to eliminate the cable entirely, and it's a difference anyone can notice.

This is why I keep my Class D powered speakers. The sonics are not to die for, but the amp/driver connection is very compelling. The watts are THERE, right at the surface of the driver.

Powered Decware speakers, Steve?

A lot to think about, Burger. And I'm with you. When I buy this system, I plan on it being my lifetime system. I've researched for years, settled on Decware, saved the coin, and I just want to enjoy the pinnacle and stack records to the ceiling. I'm not one to replace systems every X number of years. I just want to make sure I make the right choice for me within the Decware family.

I'm trying to keep them closed, but they keep snapping open!

Could someone kindly explain fully balanced differential mode? If one were to order twin UF025s to be used as monoblocks, is there something different that needs to be done to them--as opposed to a single UFO being used traditionally? Like, would one need to specify this intent upon ordering because some additional mod needs to be accounted for, or is it an inherent option within the standard design?

Are there special connects needed for such a setup, and does Decware sell them?

Quote:



Happily, it is the reason I bought 2 UFOs, and have a pair of UFO25 on order. The details are on page 11 of the UFO25 manual (or 17 of the UFO manual, it is the same for all versions of the UFO amp). Basically you need to get a custom made XLR -> 2 RCA jumper that breaks out the + and - phase of the balanced signal. Then you use the L and R channel of the amp for the + and - phase of the balanced signal.

Steve mentioned in another thread that Decware was looking into offering these cables but until then you need organize them yourself. I actually tried making them, but around the office I'm what is called a "software guy" and they turned out pretty rough. Originally I got "starter" cables here:

http://www.signalcable.com/

And then nicer ones here, when I was sure this a keeper:

https://www.ebay.com/usr/filipash4ever?_trksid=p2047675.m3561.l2559

He has a wide variety of cables and connectors to choose from.

If you have any other questions let me know. There are a few other posters who are doing the balanced monobloc thing, and we are all very happy.

And I'm seeing XLR connections. Does utilizing this method require the addition of XLR connections on the amp?

Very good advice, Brad, and it truly is helpful.

I enjoy a nice amount of headroom, and while I do hope to have Cornwall IVs sometime around the time I get my Decware amp--whichever model it is--I do have a fairly large room as it is, with a 20ft ceiling.

Are you still running the same amp, or did you upgrade to something with bigger balls?

Very helpful, James! I'm glad you're enjoying your system so much, and I'm sure the 25ths you have on order will just take everything to a whole new level!

After all of this new info, I'm going to have to do a bit more forum crawling. I've got a good bit of time to change my order if I need to. If money was no issue, I'd just get the MKV rig for the living room, and a UFO25 with tube tots for the bedroom!

I started reading it last night, and am about 7 pages in!

Which problem are you referencing? An increase in power?

I think you make a good point Burgermeester. I don't have a PP tube amp, so can't say from experience what tonal and power sound difference is like between SE and PP. I have a mini Torii and SE84C+ and both are fantastic for normal listening (probably mid 70's db for me.)

When I want significantly more volume, I use SS because in this mode I am not generally listening as intently and so am not so focused on tone. Besides that, the SS I have sounds great. No, it's not equivalent to SE tube, but it is still very enjoyable and has power for higher volumes. I can meet both needs and not break the bank.

If had no gear at all and wanted the one amp that would be a lifetime amp, I would probably seriously consider PP, but I am not changing what I have now. I am quite satisfied and don't want to chase after something I have never experienced.

It's quite beautiful too. I'm thinking its pairing with the csp325, the ZP3, the Zrock2, and likely the Rega Planar 10 will be a quality experience. Might even rip open a wormhole and suck me into some kind of audio Nirvana vortex!

Very cool. Yes, as my order stands, it's a loaded MKV, a CSP325, a ZP3 phono stage, and a Zrock2. Oh yeah, and a Decware power conditioner. All of this will be pushing a pair of Norman Lab model 9s--and I'll most likely, have some Cornwall IVs by the time it all arrives.

I'm still sorting out what power cables and speaker connects to add to my order.

Ever in search of that perfect magic, I asked myself if bridged mono UFO25s would be the better amp choice, but now I'm leaning back to keeping with my original order.

Thanks man, I will for sure!

Yeah, man, I've been studying systems for years. I'm currently cruising along with a 1963 Sherwood S-5000 II tube integrated amp, and it's nice, but it was time to go to the next level. My wife and I have been buying tons of records lately, and she gave me the green light, so I just went for the glory.

From all of my studies, Steve is the man. And not only do I love his designs, but I also dig his ethos, that his products are made in the USA, and that he gives blow-by-blows on his wild listening/design sessions. Products become far more compelling when there's a palpable connection to its architect. I'm sick of buying things without a face associated with them, ya know?

Thank ya, kindly!

Quote:


no sweat my man.

1. click on reply button
2. scroll down, identify the text you want quoted -- then highlight and copy it.
3. scroll back up to the message/post area, click on the 12th icon from the left [a folded piece of paper with a blue arrow facing to the right].
4. paste the quoted text in between the set of quote brackets created in the message area when you clicked on the quote icon.

Wow. Steve may be a circuit master, but that's some message board wizardry if ever I've heard it! We're all pecking along at our chess boards whilst you're playing 9d quantum chess! Haha.

Great thread and Steve’s response was very educational.  I posted a similar question recently trying to understand whether I should stick to my Rachael (on order) or move up to to the Torii Jr.  One other perspective I received from a Rachael owner (though not on this forum) is to factor in the number of tubes that I’d have to manage if I went up the line and that did give me some pause given the current tube crisis.  So, have I made up up mind? Not necessarily, though its heavily tilted towards the flea watt amp.

As I now ponder whether I should switch my UFO25 monoblock order to a MKV (ha ha), I know that if I own the 25s, I'll always wonder how the MKV would've compared. If I own the MKV, I'll always wonder how the 25s would've compared.

But I also know I'll wonder a lot less about the former than about the latter, which for a lifetime decision is important to me.

All my inferences, absent the ability to do an actual A/B comparison, are based on statements that Steve -- The Designer -- has made in his UFO25 development log and elsewhere (comments like "these XYZ speakers are unbelievable with the Torii Junior -- only monoblocked 25s would be better," etc.).

I'm sorry, but when someone says things like "the audio gods made their will manifest through me" or statements to that effect, they don't get to take them back, that's it!

Yeah, I know (sigh). Here's more.

When I think back to all the reviewers who have flatly stated things like "I heard no limitation at all with the UFO's [not the UFO25, but anyway] ability to drive my 88dB speakers to very high levels" I'm kind of wondering, seriously? I mean, because reviewers. They don't generally diss on their reviews.

I recently bought a headphone amp, after reading many reviews, and it fell so short of expectations I was astonished. It wasn't all that expensive, but still. Maybe there was a reason it sounded so blah, but these experiences scar the soul.

Going for 14 extra watts/channel as insurance, so to speak, and not worrying too much about possibly missing the finer points of the 25s might not be a bad strategy after all. I tend to listen to music pretty near field, so that's another reason I'm nervous about missing out on whatever it is about SET -- in the form of monoblocked 25s -- that causes Steve to stay up all night listening.

OTOH, I notice that UFO owners have been relatively quiet on this thread. Again, they may not be in a position to compare, but are concerns about the UFO as beautiful, but possibly falling short in the power dept, valid? Are the reviewers only saying power's ample because they don't have 20 watts of Decware push/pull to compare it to?