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Tube Tots development thread (Read 13443 times)
Tommy Freefall
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Tube Tots development thread
10/04/21 at 22:25:05
 
Ok, so how was the reaction to the Tube Tots at this years DECFEST?
Are they likely to be added to the Decware speaker lineup?
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #1 - 10/05/21 at 02:04:54
 

The Tube Tots were well liked, but I already knew they would be so we went into production before the fest even began. Look for them on the site this winter.

Steve

You can listen to them here:  https://vimeo.com/619572344  
as I had them going the night before to warm up for the show...

You can also watch the show and see for yourself what people thought:

FRIDAY: https://vimeo.com/620013088

SAT: https://vimeo.com/620865295





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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #2 - 10/16/21 at 20:45:45
 
Was interested in trying something different with the A/V system.  Had to be bookshelf size.  Followed this thread with great expectations.

Oct. first beat feet to Decfest.  Listened to the Tube Tot's in the main room and the wood shop.  Did not take long to be convinced that Steve has done it again.  The check book came out.

I just might be the first to have a pair in home.  Steve said the 2WPC might not be a good match but in my small (10' x 12') room the SE84 sure sounds great to me.

If anyone has a need for a smaller size speaker these are the real deal.

Dennis
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Tommy Freefall
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #3 - 10/17/21 at 17:40:31
 
Generally I much prefer floor standers over stand mounts, but these Tube Tots are on my very short list of my next speaker purchase.
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Brian
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #4 - 10/18/21 at 03:06:11
 
Steve said:  "Ohno Continuous Cast Copper is a whole new game.  Being able to draw a single crystal hundreds of feet long vs. OFC copper that has 100's of crystals per foot is a serious game changer from what I am hearing."

It sounds like this Ohno stuff might be a choice for winding a next generation of output transformers.  Interstage trans too if you decide to build an IT amplifier.

Brian
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #5 - 10/18/21 at 12:43:52
 
I'm sure it would be great as I find it excellent in every application I've experienced it in.

But. . .that would be expensive!
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #6 - 10/29/21 at 21:59:52
 
Go for it!

Show us what you can do!
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Tommy Freefall
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #7 - 10/30/21 at 02:30:24
 
I guess I should go ahead and put in my order now for the 60 watt monos so I'll have them in time for the release of this forthcoming speaker!
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #8 - 10/30/21 at 04:15:50
 
A most interesting project!

Brian
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #9 - 11/02/21 at 03:00:56
 
Looking foward to see and hear to outcome of those! Love that innovation never stops with Decware even with so much work to do!
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #10 - 11/16/21 at 09:58:41
 

Tube Tots are making good progress.   Paint next week and then final assembly.



It's really some ambitious cabinet work to create this wave guide shape, otherwise these could be done ages ago.

I hope to have them tested and on the site in January 2022!






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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #11 - 11/16/21 at 14:12:34
 
Having lived with a pair of these for a month now I think anyone in need of a speaker this size should be saving their money up….

After hearing a pair at Deckfest, I was more than impressed and begged Steve to sell me the prototype pair…..  He relented.

Nuff said
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #12 - 11/18/21 at 15:37:56
 
Speaking of paint, in what color(s) will the tots be offered?
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #13 - 11/19/21 at 22:01:05
 
I may have missed where Steve discussed this already, but what will the dimensions/weight of these speaks be??

Is there a particular speaker stand that should be considered?

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Steve Deckert
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #14 - 11/20/21 at 04:50:28
 

The Tube Tots will only be available in the figured burl wood / black finish.  There will never be options.

I've been doing a lot of re-visiting the design as I look forward to 30 pair of cabinets to arrive soon...  this is normal last minute second guessing because it's my balls on the line...

Anyway, the Tots are simple... dual 4 inch drivers running full-range with no crossovers.  The jumpers between the top and bottom drivers are gold plated copper rods which have been tested against fancy wiresand are like having only set one of binding posts for both drivers.  That's what you normally want when you use conventional speaker wire.  However, when you bi-wire you need posts for each driver.

Naturally there are other possibilities, such as running a single driver with the second acting like a passive or shorted across a resistor to damp resonance.  Also there is connecting them in series with the positive either starting with the top or the bottom driver depending on how you want to tilt your sound stage.  The tilt comes from a 15 degree phase shift from the voice coils being in series so you can stage one behind the other.  

But tonight I did another round of measurements and certainly there are some issues with running both drivers full range as you get into the top end and in an effort to improve it I got into some Tesla moments with coils.  Started with a .5 mH and measured and unwound it and measured again, and repeated until I got down to .4mH and a lot of things happened.  Putting it on both drivers tilted the response a bit but left it unchanged except we lost almost 2 dB of efficiency.   Putting it on a single driver was a whole different story, and between setting it on the positive side vs. the negative side of the circuit, the negative side measured and sounded best.

So basically we have a small coil of wire replacing the negative jumper on the speakers binding posts.  Below is the standard measurement with both drivers full-range (BLUE TRACE)  vs. adding the coil to the top driver (RED TRACE) .


Click to Enlarge


What is interesting are the results.  Two things happened... the SPL increased by almost 3dB and the imaging is far more focused and the sound stage is noticeably deeper.  It's a great improvement I think, so I will ship the speakers with coils as well as the gold plated rods so you can have either response.

Steve


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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #15 - 11/20/21 at 04:56:10
 

They're around 12 inches tall and meaty but not heavy.

Stands I have been testing them on are worse-case scenarios from eBay for $60... glass top and bottom, thin metal tubes.  I didn't try to fill the tubes.


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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #16 - 11/21/21 at 00:59:34
 
Is there a recommend stand height relative to ear height at seated position? Thanks
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #17 - 11/24/21 at 10:27:01
 
Decware is turning me from an "I like audio" person into an art collector.
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #18 - 11/25/21 at 02:08:31
 

Here is a JAZZ sound demo of the Decware Zen Tube Tots...

https://youtu.be/TAH8bSAc2bo

No longer a concept, will be available soon.

Today I got the Jensen coils with the wax coating for the top driver and it made a noticeable difference over the mismatched combo I used in prior tests.

So we will ship these with both the gold plated rods and a coil for each speaker so that you can configure it's sound to your own liking.

Price is still on target at $1200/pr.





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Steve Deckert
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #19 - 11/25/21 at 03:26:54
 
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #20 - 11/25/21 at 04:05:54
 
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Tubecan
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #21 - 12/24/21 at 23:25:00
 
My tiny radials for the past 8 months haven't moved...one is sitting atop a dinning room cabinet that's 7 feet tall.the other tiny radial is 11 feet away sitting on a 4 foot cabinet..the imaging is crazy..the sound is spectacular,if someone started walking off with these i'd toss a ls3/5a or a p3esr at them!Ohhh and they can get loud.i tried posting a photo but can't from this computer.
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #22 - 01/01/22 at 03:40:22
 

After listening for several weeks now and measuring the Tube Tots with and without the crossover I have decided to add the crossover to the design. The crossover is a single coil placed on one of the drivers to roll it off around 5K.  This improved the frequency response and added nearly 3dB to the sensitivity of the entire speaker so they will now have my blessing for use with our 2.3 watt amplifiers.

I have been evaluating the differences between perfect lay inductors, fancy braided types, and pure copper foil and in this speaker it is critical to use the very best because it has to match a driver that uses nothing and both matching full-range drivers are doing the mid-range and bass.

I ordered the copper foil inductors tonight, so as we do the final inspections on each pair we will also be installing the coils and putting everything back together for a final QC.



click to enlarge


While it does measure considerably better and pick up some efficiency, the sound is far better focused and more relaxed and dimensional with this update. When you listen to both the original design against this latest improvement, the difference isn't subtle.

The first 4 pair of speakers are already here, the rest are on the way by boat. As you may or may not know I am having these custom built by some of my friends in China and the final assembly and testing is being done here at Decware.

And yes we could make them here but I only have two cabinet makers and both are buried with orders so deep they can hardly breath. So when you order some of our speakers on the web site it can take nearly a year to complete your pair while other models may only take a few months. Plus it would cost more and we couldn't make them any better. The specifications on these cabinets are serious. Cabinet walls are 2 inches thick at the front, the baffle is double thick, the noiseless rear port is hugely flared both inside and out and the exotic real wood veneers have A1 finishing, just like we would make them here.  They are like picking up a bowling ball. 

As I have mentioned earlier in this thread, we're going to start things rolling with 30 pairs of inventory and then complete & test each pair as the orders come in. This should drop the wait time to 30 days while we have inventory.

I'm shooting for Feb/March.








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Brian
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #23 - 01/02/22 at 03:11:19
 
Thank you, Steve for the update.
"While it does measure considerably better and pick up some efficiency, the sound is far better focused and more relaxed and dimensional with this update. When you listen to both the original design against this latest improvement, the difference isn't subtle."

This is what makes these build reports so much fun - the subjective listening comparisons.  

Merry Christmas, Brian
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #24 - 01/02/22 at 03:55:09
 


Interesting back story behind this update to the Tube Tots...  As you all well know I have been in love with these speakers since I first hear them. They have great bass weight and texture in such a tiny package! Of course the midrange is to die for. They build on my love for full-range crossoverless drivers with the added thrill of even more speed as is only possible from 4 inch drivers. They imaged on the better side of the scale compared to all the competition in the Decware listening room and I just didn't hear anything that was really worth improving.

Then I got the Decware house speakers done and the razor sharp focus and placement they offer was no different than getting an audio firmware update in your head.  After that update I couldn't hear the Tot's quite the same way despite trying for several evenings... it was becoming obvious that something had to be done.

Now with the new reference for focus the Tot's sounded just slightly blurry to me and since they have two drivers running full-range it might be possible to make some changes. Since Tube Tots are so small and the 4 inch drivers are next to each other -- there isn't a real problem with timing like there would be with say a pair of 8 inch drivers spread further apart. It really sounds no different than a single 8 or 10 inch full-range design... but here lies an opportunity because we have dual 4 inch drivers.

Once I measured the speakers and saw the rise in treble response around 7kHz-15Khz I knew that rolling of that second driver just before that rise (around 5K) would probably fix a lot and it did. The frequency balance got better, but that wasn't off enough to be noticeable or even a real problem.  It was the imaging that transformed. The phase angle on these speakers seems to me to be just about more than one could reasonably expect, and the rise in efficiency is a nice surprise.

I am now a really happy Tube Tot guy because they are no longer sounding inferior to the Decware house speakers and frankly the fun sound that they have and the textures... OMG the textures are fabulous... I crave these speakers when they're not in the system.  

So yea, hearing something better than the Tots created a better sounding pair of Tots in less than a week and made it suddenly compatible with our 2.3 watt amplifiers.  Another gift.

I had the speakers made with a mortised circle to receive our logo which was 1/2 mm too small to fit our round speaker logo so I am having some made a little smaller to fit.  When those arrive this coming week I'll be able to take the official product photos and then get started on the web page.

 



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Brian
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #25 - 01/03/22 at 02:44:56
 
A wonderful story!
You have a lot of fun. I am glad for you.

Brian
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #26 - 01/06/22 at 22:02:22
 

One giant step closer!

The first pair of production model Tube Tots have been completed.  Now we can start working on the web page and then we'll begin to take orders.











Steve


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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #27 - 01/06/22 at 22:21:46
 
Friggin' Awesome, Steve.

HK
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #28 - 01/07/22 at 03:33:06
 
It's a Beauty!

Brian
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #29 - 01/07/22 at 18:07:57
 
Gosh, those are gorgeous!!!  With their style, size and price point, I’m sure they will be big sellers. Do I remember correctly that they will be $1400 a pair?
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #30 - 01/08/22 at 06:15:26
 
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #31 - 01/08/22 at 21:38:41
 
Beautiful . Are they available for sale now ?
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #32 - 01/08/22 at 23:38:45
 
Drew T. not yet. Steve will put on the product list when they get the page info set up. Check his post w/ picture above.

HK
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #33 - 01/09/22 at 06:00:41
 
Sounds good . Thank you HR
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #34 - 01/11/22 at 00:41:53
 
Steve:  very interested in the tots.  I also very much appreciate how you post measurements.  I’m not a speaker designer (strong understatement).  I’m curious about the dip in the brilliance region in terms of cause (curiosity) and how it influences the tot’s’ character?  Any interest in sharing your thoughts?  How do the measurements and sound stack up to your new 945 (am I getting that number right) prototype?
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #35 - 01/11/22 at 02:35:57
 

To answer your question about the top end response:



click to enlarge


This graph above has no smoothing and the room is gated out.  The room will fill in a lot of those dips, but to get a better idea of what you would hear from just the speaker, I pulled up the same measurement and applied 1/6 smoothing to it and unwrapped the phase response.




click to enlarge



So to explain as I see it what I hear is two things happening simultaneously: Frequency Response and Phase Response.

Phase response has a lot to do with imaging and sound stage front to back depth and where things are placed.  As the number drifts away from ZERO on the chart, the image location at that frequency moves back in time which moves it back behind your speakers in a relative amount.

So if we look at the where it starts in the bass on this chart, we can imagine the bass is forward and then as it gets in the 200Hz to 400Hz aka the thick zone, it backs off and gets out of your face which is nice. Then just a nice bump forward in the lower midrange to separate vocals from everything else followed by a honest straight line of decay that stops and begins to rise at 3200Hz pushing that frequency forward in the stage while at the same time the frequency balance is softening it. Then by 4K both are in agreement and gently push forward right into the presence zone. Similarly the same thing happens at 10K. Then in the brilliance region the peak in response is offset by the hard dive in phase response. That would create even more depth for ambient harmonics.

So I don't really perceive the dip, nor would anyone else I suspect. Remember the highest note on a piano is  4186 Hz

-Steve


The new concept speaker of the 945 has not been measured as of yet.  It is a different animal though, with less midrange presence and higher overall sensitivity.

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Brian
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #36 - 01/11/22 at 04:33:26
 
I thank You so much for that explanation! I have never understood anything about Phase.

Brian
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #37 - 01/11/22 at 13:45:47
 
Thanks so much for taking the time to post this response.  It really peaks my interest and prompts even more curiosity and questions.
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #38 - 01/12/22 at 21:50:51
 
How tall do the stands need to be? Buying the speakers and want to be sure stands are available when they arrive. (Buying as soon as they can be ordered)
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #39 - 01/13/22 at 04:15:16
 
Hi Iazb, I'm new to this forum, and I'm also very interested in the Tube Tots.  Steve posted a link to the Owners Manual for these speakers on 1//08.  In that document, he states the recommended height for speaker stands as being 24".  Hope that helps.
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #40 - 01/13/22 at 06:50:49
 
Hello, trombonium.
Welcome to the forum.

Brian
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #41 - 01/13/22 at 16:42:05
 
Thanks, Brian.  I'm looking forward learning more about this amazing equipment.

Larry
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #42 - 01/18/22 at 01:56:44
 
Appears the tots are on the speakers page.  4th from the top. And the webpage for the tots is active. And with the new website theme, no less.

https://www.decwareproducts.com/zentubetots
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #43 - 01/18/22 at 11:04:45
 
Drew T,

I believe Steve mentions back in this thread that the TTs will load a small room well with the 2 watt Decware offerings.

John
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #44 - 01/18/22 at 19:54:13
 
I have a pair of Tube Tots for about four months now.

I use them with a SE84C+ or an older Taboo for a A/V setup..  The room is small..

I have absolutely no plans to replace them.  Even for movies I find no need for a sub.

Well worth the investment
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #45 - 01/23/22 at 03:21:51
 

I have been working on trying to design some stands for the Tube Tots...

Here are some pics of what I have done so far.  Then I will get into the science of stands and how it can destroy the sound of any speaker.



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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #46 - 01/23/22 at 03:23:22
 



The holes are for large black knobs that have yet to arrive.





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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #47 - 01/23/22 at 03:27:57
 

 

OK, so you noticed the Tube Tot on the floor laying on it's side...  Would this be a perfect monitor for your console... if you mix audiophile recordings? Yes... extraordinary if your wanting high res without clinical -- assuming the reference tube gear driving it is free of colorations... you will be very  happy with results if not astounded!

Anyway this is where this design is currently at.  I am seriously tempted to paint the inside vertical board black.  We'll see what happens..  I don't have to really worry about it, because those urges I can't control or predict.  They just happen so we will see.  Again, just taking you into the design process for better or worse.




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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #48 - 01/23/22 at 04:02:56
 

OK, So let's talk about stands...

My first experience with the horrifying effect of ruining the sound of a speaker with a stand came in the early 1990's with a pair of PSB Alpha bookshelf speakers that I had on some weird triangular columns that I stood up on a board and set the Alphas on top of.  These hollow columns were part of some retail display from a store that I scarfed up along the way.  Setting them on a flat board floating on the carpet decoupled from the floor and the speakers directly coupled to the top of the hollow triangular columns -- the sound was glorious.  I enjoyed it for many months, but the stands were easily tipped. They were a balancing act and even my cat could launch one into the wall.

So one day I grew a pair and purchased some hi-end steel stands that I filled with lead shot and spiked to the floor and spiked to the speakers...

Yea, that was probably it right there.  

Anyway, I turned on the stereo and the magic sound I had grown to love was completely gone.   I had this hatefully dry, etched, tipped up sound that had almost no bass and no imaging. I was so stunned I didn't know how to process it frankly.

The stands were quickly donated to friends that weren't really friends.

Fast forward 30+ years to today and in wanting to see how these things looked before the rest of the parts arrived, I had to use make shift spikes and cones to see what the final look would be close to.

I had the stands firmly spiked to floor through the carpet, and the speaker spikes installed resting in magnesium disks that were hard coupled to the top of the stand - a way to get coupling without scratching the wood.

I turned it on and the magic sound of Tube Tots was completely COMPLETELY C O M P L E T E L Y gone.

The sound stage went from 16 feet wide to 5 feet at best.  The highs were shot.  The midrange was totally f'cked.  Bass was well I don't really know because I was so distracted by everything else that was broken.

See, these speakers are presently set on the inside of the 3-way house speakers so they are only 5 feet apart.  Despite this odd placement, they have a sound stage that is literally 16 feet wide.  It sounds like the speakers are placed well outside the 3-ways.  Suddenly spiking the speaker to the stand which is spiked to the floor which is concrete slab on dirt... made them sound like a boom box with a sound stage that was 5 feet wide.

I'm not kidding.

So the solution to get the sound back is to remove the spikes from the bottom of the Tube Tots and set the speakers on rubber 0-rings with the following specs:  Hardness 70 SHORE A (NBR 70) AS568 (#-210) 1/8x3/4

See picture:



This TINY little change restored the full glory of the Tube Tot sound and image and stage.  Literally.  The original stands that cost $60 on Amazon made from glass and thin aluminum were in fact perfect as well because they had shallow rubber pads between the speaker and the stand. These are at least as good if not better in sound but several notches better in looks I hope.  I can already hear the way they punch music into the room has gotten better.  Immediacy.

Steve











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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #49 - 01/23/22 at 04:10:23
 

I am also hearing a real improvement in the sax lower notes.  WAY MORE fleshy, breathy, dense.  Thank GOD because it was hard to accept  the $60 Amazon glass stand was as good as it was going to get.

Right now the bottom of the stand is decoupled from the black part spiked to the concrete with the same o-rings.  Yet with this stance is is very firm and does not rock or move.

Fleshy tones are better and projection is more immediate compared to glass Amazon stands.

I will see if I can find the model of the Amazon stands for people on a tight budget, and for anyone else I don't want to leave the stand to chance because it would HORRIFY ME to come to your home and hear these sound like they just did tonight when I improperly coupled them to the earth.

I also want to explore the same design in steel like the 3 way stands that inspired this design... so this could end anywhere...  If there is time I will create a cad file of the stand so that DIY guys can build their own.

Have a good night!

Steve





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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #50 - 01/23/22 at 11:58:35
 
Good morning!

Very interesting observations. I am going to try the "O" ring decoupling on my setup. My Crystals are set ontop of 8/4 oak slabs that are pegged to the cement floor. I've been shock in the past on what little things can do to give very noticable improvements...this may be one of those.

John
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #51 - 01/23/22 at 21:45:16
 
I tried the o rings and ended up with mixed results. The bass improved with better definition. Better tactical display of instruments. Vocal and detail seemed a bit smeared.

Win some-lose some, the trick is finding middle ground? I only had enough rings on hand to place one at each corner of the speakers. Going to try more rings in line with the bottom front back panels in an attempt to better stabilize while still isolating. Right now the weather here is not to inviting for a run to the hardware store Smiley  

John
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #52 - 01/23/22 at 23:51:34
 
I've built platforms on springs for my speakers to sit on for really good isolation.  I doubt the O-rings really isolate much.  I've found speaker isolation versus floor coupling to be speaker dependent.  I liked my HR1s isolated but not so much my F15s.
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #53 - 01/24/22 at 03:53:53
 
Yes. Painting the center board of the stand black will relieve the cluttered appearance. I think that is the right choice.

Brian
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #54 - 01/24/22 at 09:45:43
 
Archie don’t be so quick to underestimate the power of a o-ring.

The weather did me a favor yesterday by delaying the trip to the hardware store. I found a couple of plastic organizers full of o-rings tucked away in a parts cabinet. It took a night’s sleep to jog the old noodle of its presence in my shop. It’s a bitch getting old!

Anyhow, the rings that were used yesterday, found in a loose assortment drawer, are 3/8” x 1/8”. The ones that are going to be used today will be 1” X 1/8”. This makes the ring’s outside diameter 1 1/4” which will fit completely under the 1 1/2” front and back panels that serve as legs on the speaker cabinet. When placing the new rings under the cabinet it was noticed that I forgot to replace a shim that was used to compensate for a slight warp in one of the oak platforms. This is most likely the cause of smearing mention in my former post here.

After your comment about the o-ring not having good isolation it got me thinking that maybe your right. Basically a o-ring is just a piece of 1/8” rubber that seems to be fairly hard but the bass and attack improvements were real and got me excited until the slight loss in vocal clarity was apparent. So, I got my trusty stethoscope out used many times to isolate noise in machines, replaced the o-rings and started to play doctor on the speaker cabinet.



One speaker was without o-rings and the other with (4) 1 1/4” o-rings each placed at the outside corners. The cabinet without the rings was tapped on the side with my index finger knuckle and the diaphragm of the stethoscope placed on the oak platform with light pressure on the stethoscope’s bell with the other index finger. A ringing sound was produced and could be clearly heard through the stethoscope. The other speaker with the rings, performing the same scenario, eliminated the ringing sound and became more of a muffled thug sound.

I will definitely do some serious listening later today after the system is thoroughly warmed up Smiley

John
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #55 - 01/24/22 at 15:55:49
 


Direct Coupling or Isolation....

Why does it have to be one extreme or the other?

The O-Ring strikes a nice balance between the two.

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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #56 - 01/24/22 at 17:03:39
 
I was just commenting based on the "mixed result" from the O-ring.  Look at it from the perspective of solid coupling passing ALL frequencies, complete isolation passing NO frequencies and then everything in between by tuning with "soft coupling/isolation" devices.  I typically concern myself with keeping all vibration out of my amps and TT.  Speakers are completely different but with an understanding of how the materials might affect vibration isolation, tuning won't be hit or miss.  I've been amazed at how poor certain "isolation materials" such as Sorbothane really are at isolation.
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #57 - 01/25/22 at 02:20:59
 

Archie,

I too am amazed at how bad everything that isolates really is at isolating.  

I made a plinth using magnetic levitation when I was developing the Zen Audio Focus platforms to see if it was viable. By the time I got the field stiff enough to hold any real weight, it was also able to transfer some vibration too! That's when I gave up on the idea of perfect isolation.

Oddly enough, even if I could create an anti-gravity bubble around a component and have it just suspended in the air, sound in the air would collect in it until it began to fill up with vibrations that would have nowhere to drain.  Might be worse than having it setting on something.

Steve
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #58 - 01/25/22 at 02:35:46
 
Well, if isolation is the goal there is good enough.  lol  

It's like the old joke of the mathematician and the engineer being told they can only approach a beautiful woman by halving the distance each time they advance.  The mathematician says it's impossible to reach her and gives up while the engineer says he'll get close enough for practical purposes!
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ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #59 - 01/25/22 at 09:52:14
 
Well, eight o-rings struck a good balance in my system. What baffles me is why-o-why was it not realized until now! There was every indication that the concrete floor was conveying a mixture of feedback to all the components. It was so obvious when the amps were placed on the isolation stage I built a couple of years ago. But, when the speakers were built and pegged to the floor?!, oh my!

To sum it up in one word; presence, has improved a very noticeable notch in the Chariot. This revelation will most certainly push me to finish the Crystal’s cabinets built last year.

Pennies is all that will be needed for remarkable improvements when striking the right balance. I just replaced the diodes in the ZKIT1 with ultra fast ones. The new diodes unveiled yet another layer of detail in music. Combined with the o-rings the Chariot changed it’s character for the better. The $5 or so investment reminds me of days pass when five dollars could fetch a half tank of gas, pack of cigarettes, and nine pack bag of Schlitz bottles. That is all I needed to be set for a fun full evening then and now Smiley

Smiley

John

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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #60 - 01/25/22 at 10:50:21
 
When I first looked at the TT stands a build up corner of a framing wall came to mind. Have to agree with Brian that darkening the center of the post would be beneficial.

On the other hand a swell from all corners of the base tapering towards the center of the post then transitioning up to the platform towards it’s corners would be exotic.

John
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #61 - 01/29/22 at 17:07:50
 
I'm waiting to see what else you come up with Steve. Bookshelves are a great value, easy to ship, easy to move from room-to -room/system-to-system...I REALLY wish these were closer to 100db sensitive to work best with the lowest wattage tube amps. Smiley
Yep, keep at them, every post adds more desire, once I hit "BUY" I want a whole package, speakers, stands and even cable...hmmm...thank you. Smiley
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #62 - 01/31/22 at 20:34:42
 
Townshend Seismic Vibration Isolation Platforms

They use springs wrapped in semi sealed envelope with a pin hole to control the dampening.  

Springs need to be sized accordingly like Goldilocks not to firm not to soft.

There are also some companies that use pods and removable springs to control the weight.

Interesting article IsoAcoustics Testing at the National Research Council of Canada

https://isoacoustics.com/isoacoustics-testing-at-the-national-research-council-o...
f-canada-nrc/




Have you tried Blue Tac?
Any update on O rings being tried on the 3 ways?

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And the newspapers were fooling,
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The piano has been drinking
The piano has been drinking,
Not me, not me, not me, not me, not me
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Re: Decware 2021 Concept speakers
Reply #63 - 03/05/22 at 02:47:50
 
Steve, any update on the stands? I had the ladies add me to the que for the second batch of tots and now i have nothing to set them on based on your musings…
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Re: Tube Tots development thread
Reply #64 - 07/30/22 at 18:39:13
 




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