Hello all. Apologies for the long post to start. For various reasons I’ve had a somewhat erratic hi-fi journey of late. My original aspiration was for an all Naim CD based system. When I got there the limitations of my Epos ES11 speakers were surprisingly exposed (rolled off top end, one note bass) so I started a three year long journey towards new speakers. None of the traditional matches worked for me. Too much hi-fi. Not enough emotional involvement. I happened across Zu and was able to demo at length. A year further along I took possession of the first Soul Superfly in the UK.

Where I’m currently at is that I have moved from CD to streaming using an Innuos Zenith 3 into a Chord Hugo TT2. The streaming is locally only at present i.e. about 1,900 CD rips stored on the Innuos. This all goes into Naim amplification i.e. 200/202/HCDR/NAPSC and that in turn feeds the Zu.

This came about from increased dissatisfaction with my Naim CDX2/XPS2 source, which nobody has been able to resolve for me. That was allied with a general irritation at the sheer number of boxes and cable faffing involved in a Naim system so the problem if there is one is likely to be me. The CDX2 rocked but getting it to do that consistently post the move to Zu became a PITA and it became obvious that the impedance mismatch between amp and speakers was as much of an issue as the cable spaghetti management etc.

So, CDP has been sold. Accompanying power supply will go the same way once I get it back from my dealer (lock down means it’s been there nearly 15 months). No regrets at all moving to streaming but big decisions needed to be made re: speakers and amps. One has to go. My conclusion is that the speakers are great and my Naim journey is over. I now need to source an amp to do justice to my source and speakers. Obviously difficult with shops shut in a pandemic so I’ve been doing a lot of reading and… here I am.

I have never owned a valve amp in my life. To some extent I fear them. I’m visually impaired and dealing with anything involving detail can be difficult. I’m not your man for DIY etc. I thought Mrs. H. was implacably opposed to valve solutions but it turns out she will accept if it’s not going to explode, boil us to death, take up significant space or prove overly complex. Hmm.

So, the living room is 15.5 x 11.5 with the speakers less than ideally placed either side of a not in use fireplace. 50” Pioneer Kuro plasma above the fireplace and between the speakers. 3 seater sofa down one wall to the right as you face the speakers and 3 seater facing the speakers on the short back wall. Window on the long left wall. Hi-if currently on 2 columns of Hutter RackTime at the end of the sofa on the long wall i.e. between the right speaker and the sofa on the long wall. Household musical tastes are wonderfully eclectic. Aphex Twin through to Zappa with jazz, folk, blues, metal, classical, pop, hip hop, soul and much more in between. I’ve found I can cope with a much more relaxed sound than the Naim source but at present the Zu don’t come to life until cranked up and the whole thing, thanks I suspect to the impedance issue, can sound great on some stuff and anaemic on other stuff. I want some mid range warmth; the full detail from the DAC (ugly looking thing but very good) and a lot more presence/power on things like drums and brass.

Everything I read is pointing me towards a Decware single amp solution. Some newbie questions then:

1 - does anyone have experience with an Innuos/Chord front end and how it might sound/work with Decware/Zu?

2 - I have read a number of reviews suggesting Decware for jazz/classical but not for rock etc. I’m not going for earth shattering volumes as my tinnitus would object but is there going to be enough to satisfy me at lower volumes? Not low, just moderate listening levels.

3 - I know which amp I’d like but given the room size etc. what do people think would be the best fit? A 2 box solution is not where I want to go and ideally I’d like to move to one column of Hutter not two.

Your thoughts are welcome.

I agree with Geno, the UFO 25th is wonderful and worth the price of admission and then some.  It is definitely the last amplifier I will ever own and should work well with Zu. My space is about the same and with Klipsch speakers the volume is more than enough.

OK, I'll throw a wrench into this thought process.

How about a Torii Jr for more or less the same money and the knowledge that you would never run out of power?

Oh by the way, welcome to our little family here.

I'm kinda the left handed, red headed, step child-black sheep of the family.

   Re the second question,  low level rock and roll with sound great.  My experience is with the mini torii, the Rachael and the SE84UFO25th and all three will do it, but the 25th anniversary digs deeper into the recordings and tightens up the imaging.  It lifted another veil for me.  The torii jr. will give you more power but IMO, the UFO will sound better and you shouldn't need any more power than that.  At least that has been my experience and I am an audio lover, not an audiophile but it's hard to go wrong with any of the Decware products!
 Can't help with the first question, but I don't see why it wouldn't work well together.

I listen to all kinds of music - at present it’s Jethro Tull. Earlier it was Fairport Convention, and this morning it was Art Blakey and Saint-Saens. These amps do well with all kinds of music.

Eventually you might consider one of the Decware preamps (I have the CSP3). It can take it to yet another level (and an extra bit of gain)

My partner, she likes to watch Youtube music videos on our TV via a Marantz DAC into the SE84. Works well. I've never run them analog to analog, I've always had optical to a decent quality DAC first and I haven't had any issues. Sounds surprisingly good, even with Youtube audio quality. And definitely loud enough.

Again, good to know. I have a nagging suspicion that this sort of issue could arise and it would, potentially, be a deal breaker. Is your input into the amp pure analogue to analogies or is there a DAC en route?

Should I forget to say so may I take the opportunity to thank you all for your replies so far. It’s really helping me solidify my thinking on an amp better matched to the system as a whole.

I use a bluray player to stream content which has been plugged into both a Schiit Bifrost 2 and a Border Patrol SE-i DAC. The buzz is there using both DACs and is present on the Border Patrol with and without the tube engaged.

@morp yes that’s really good to hear thanks. I’m familiar with the Qutest having auditioned one before settling on the TT2. Latter us a little more laid back but also even more detailed.

With the Decware/Zu combination I’m acutely aware how both show what’s going on upstream so I want to be confident my source can withstand that kind of analysis and… it’s sounding good.

I did have a fair old hum on my system at one point. Tried solving it with a filter, which is probably still there now I think about it. I took the headphone amp out and that largely sorted it.

So, in terms of the 25th anniversary edition, what sort of heat does it generate bearing in mind that in the Winter we don’t need the heating on in the living room when the TV is on and in the Summer we can’t risk watching the plasma given the heat already in the room?

Also, am I missing something? The sure suggests it only has 1 set of inputs. I need 2.

Good job selling me on the sound there abd feel free to throw in what you want. I’m not a massive metal fan but it gets played occasionally and goodness knows there’s plenty of electric guitar in my music collection generally.

One input would be a non-starter. Does that mean I need a switch or just a different Decware amp?

Mike.. just wanted to chime in here as a newbie to the tube world. I received my SE84UFO in Jan 2021 to replace a NAD integrated and couldn't be more happier. I did have speaker hum while my REL sub was powered up. I did the extension cord outlet test among many other troubleshooting attempts. Rest assured when I called into Decware, Steve was able to provide a fix within 10 mins or so. He had me run a ground wire between the negative posts on the amp.. problem solved.

I also had a more difficult issue where the amp was lit up but no sound. Called in again and Steve immediately knew it was a fuse. I replaced the fuse (it was very easy to do).

 Just trying to put you at ease that Steve was wonderful to work with and after I got through these two minor blips all has been wonderful since. l also have tinnitus and the SE84UFO provides plenty of power for my needs.. best of luck !  Bob

Hello Mike.

You say that two inputs for the amp is a requirement, but you also say this:

Quote:


At which point you would then need only one input for the amplifier, the Chord providing for your two digital inputs. The waiting period for a new Decware amp should provide ample time to obtain whatever connecting cable needed for TV digital out to the Chord.

Another consideration (another wrench) is that the Chord Hugo TT2 manual states that in 'DAC Mode' the output is a fixed 2.5V (RCA), so then no volume control from the Chord, remote or otherwise. The SE84UFO25 has separate volume control for each channel, the other similar SE84 amps having a single VC. Remote VC is available on the Chord only in 'Amp Mode', which goes through the internal digital preamp, but this would run counter to purpose of highest sound quality. (Source selection would still be available by Chord remote either way.)

If two inputs for the amp are still needed regardless, in consideration of the SE84UFO25: If you could somehow find a way to fit in a 6"W x 2.5"H box somewhere, it would certainly increase flexibility and options. More faffing with cables at the outset, true, but that is a one-time event, and possibly saves further fuss in other ways for everyday operation. The ZSB (switch box) has option for a remote control, so then not having to deal with dual volume, e.g., or manual VC at all, after setting them manually at first.

After all that . . . Either the SE84UFO or SE84UFO2 (both w/two inputs, one volume knob) with 25th anniversary power supply mods are said to be a noticeable step above the stock versions in sound quality, the consensus I gather as their being closer to the SE84UFO25 than to their respective stock versions.

I hope it all works out for you in the end.

Thanks both. Yes, an obvious point and I still managed to miss it. Easy enough to feed a digital out from my Kuro or my Sky Q box to the DAC and then, as you say. One input is fine.

The point about the Chord modes is an interesting one. I started in DAC mode into my Naim pre. It was fine but the 2.5V reduced the travel on the volume so it was overly sensitive. 2.V is on the hot side for the Naim but otherwise okay. I moved to AMP mode and tried 1V, 1.5 and 2. 1 was awful, 2 gave me reduced travel once again and 1.5V is a nice balance of sound quality and sensible control over volume. At no point have I had any sense that using the Chord in AMP mode into the pre has reduced sound quality. The issue is more impedance mismatch between 4 Ohm amp and 16 Ohm speakers.

That then leads to me asking why you think using AMP mode might be less than optimum with the anniversary edition? Is it not in effect acting as a pre?

I should add that volume control and remote control are of little concern to me. I’ve no problem setting manually from the amp or DAC.

Following on from, that what range of voltages will the amp accept? I’m not sufficiently knowledgeable with regard to electronics to be able to necessarily deduce from a spec sheet.

Yes to all mods by the way. Lockdown has been kind to me and working from home has enabled regular saving for the first time in years so if there’s any restriction at all I guess it’s me imposing a broad £4,000 limit as that would then be comparable to speakers, amp and DAC expenditure.

Can’t say I’m bothered about controlling the volume from the DAC. I am told there is a sweet spot but my volume desires change from album to album and the design of the Chord could be politely described as not especially user friendly. I’d rather fix and forget and then control from the amp as I currently do.

Currently working my way through the full 17 pages of the anniversary build thread. Interesting. I suspect the position of my Superfly within my room will give me more 2D than 3D but I can live with that given the many other apparent gains.

Thank you all. Just a case of continuing to put money aside then until I hit the magic figure. I have a shortlist of both solid state and valve amps. The Superfly does work with solid state but was designed for valves and I have to say that in terms of my shortlist it’s eased out ahead for me - bearing in mind that I’ve not been able to listen to anything in lockdown and may not be able to do so for some time. I’ve some persuading of Mrs. H. and the 16 year old in terms of both valves and looks but they’ve let the Chord into the house and acknowledged it’s worth so…

Some further practical questions:

- I’m assuming you don’t keep your amps on all the time from various things I’ve read? This will be new to me as a Naim owner where there is active encouragement to do the opposite. So, do you power down your sources at the same time?

- I’m assuming power up would be amp first then source?

- no-one has, as best I recall. answered mine of my earlier questions about heat. Any clues?

- bearing in mind the joys of Brexit and a pandemic, any known issues shipping to the UK?

Quote:


To avoid this I always turn my amp volume to zero before powering up or down.  With all the capacitors on everything, I'd have to take half a minute to turn on/off everything slowly, in sequence, to avoid all pops and pulses.

BTW, I know a lot of people leave their equipment on 24/7 but the power waste (and cost) is significant.

Yeah, so pretty much as I expected then in terms of order. Surprised anyone leaves a valve amp on all the time but then most non-believers are surprised the Naim is on all the time.

Given the likelihood of a hike in electricity costs I’m inclined to put the amp on maybe at the end of week each day - like many others I’m currently working from home - and my guess is that powering didn’t the source (server/streamer) is going to be no issue compared to a noisy CDP etc.

Mike - Just saw your posts regarding the heat issue from Decware tube products. My .02 cents worth, I was concerned when I sold off all our previous gear and bought the Decware gear since it all lives in the coat closet in our living room (when your wife is an Interior Designer / Space Planner a rack of electronics isn't going in the living room). I was concerned about heat, but my other gear lived in the same space so I figured ''How bad can it Be??" I ended up with a digital thermometer mounted in the closet (just like the ones in our QC room at work). At the worst, in the Santa Cruz mountains on the hottest days (3 digits) it never went over 8° above the ambient temp of the living room (no AC, mid-80's) so I stopped worrying about it. Sources & pre-amp on first, amp on last with all master volumes down and turn off is all masters down, amp off first, pre-amp and sources next. No noise, no thumps just glorious music all the darn time. Love our Decware/Omega gear. Happy listening, Chris.

@ Mike Hughes

If you click on the Show More link in Andrew Robinson's review, it shows he is reviewing the SE84UFO2

Sam

Mike,

Off the top of my head, you will be well served with the 25th Anniversary. It has separate power supplies for all the gain left, right, and pre tubes which will provide clean power from even dirty mains. Sperate channel volume controls will work well in your difficult listening space. Get the tube complement option and you will be set with the tools to acquire a wonderful audio experience in your space.

When I eventually move to a condo this will be my go to amp!

John

Not more difficult than most normal living spaces. The window on one long wall and sofa on the other will tend to mess with balance a bit. The fireplace might be a plus and TV not.

John

Both amplifiers have the same rated output power and the same basic circuit. The UFO25 is a 'souped up' version of the stock amplifier and the UFO2, primarily by way of a super hotrodded power supply, with capacitor bypass mods and then separate supply each to the gain tube and the two power tubes, and with addition of voltage regulator tubes.

In daily use, the only functional difference between the two is that the UFO2 has a single volume control for both channels, whereas the UFO25 has separate volume control ea. for L and R.

The listening experience is however, by almost all accounts, something quite apart-- the UFO25 being "in a different league", as they say.

If you haven't yet, you should avail yourself of the SE84UFO25 sub-forum, wherein a number of current 84UFO25 owners who have previously owned the stock 84UFO or 84UFO2 amplifiers speak of their impressions concerning the difference between the two.

Here is a 'starter kit' thread within that sub-forum:

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1531362294

And a thread with your inquisition in the title:

https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1565277619