Hey Manny,

For amp thoughts, I wonder if you saw this thread.... https://www.decware.com/cgi-bin/yabb22/YaBB.pl?num=1616043306

Not all you want to know, but hopefully enough about the amps you mention to be useful.

I am not up on deposits, holding a place on the bill list, and Sales these days, but hopefully others will comment.


Good Luck!

Will

Thanks both Kalafu and Will -
Your timely answers showed empathy to newcomers. I also got closer to a decision after reading the links provided. I have an upcoming appointment to talk to Steve. The name to my pain in terms of lingering doubt is the fact that my Spatials X3 open baffles require a minimum of 10 watts to show their full glory. Also, not sure how their ‘built in’ n-core sub will translate in terms of compatibility and synergy. Last resort would be to choose between a Zen TORii MK-IV with 25th Anniversary mods or the Mystery Amp.
Thanks again for the link provided.
I wish you both well.
Best regards

I can't say I understand it, not having studied SPLs in relation to speaker efficiency and amp power ratings, but I have looked at calculators, and they don't seem to make sense relative to my experience. This supports the thought that many specs/calculators can be useful, but perhaps not being the whole story, they can be incomplete.

I have tried a few Decware amps, and can say that I did notice more than loudness differences comparing lower wattage amps (SE34 and its later iteration, a Rachel, as well as a Taboo MKIII), and higher wattage amps (Blue Torii, Torii MKIII and MKIV) in my system/room.

In this particular complex, my feeling from listening makes me think the headroom from 12-25 watt Toriis allows them to push the drivers of my HR-1s harder, seeming to effect the sound experience more than the SPL range. Quite dense and dynamic ...bigger/deeper/fuller, I am guessing part of pushing the speaker drivers harder is from the power hungry lower frequencies being more present with Toriis than lower power amps I have tried with these same speakers. Tricky to equate without direct comparisons at measured volumes, but I am guessing the density and the low end presence of the Torii can be big power drains that may not necessarily show clearly with SPL measurements.... And with these speakers, power pushing the drivers harder seems more like music to me, more impactful, alive and complex.

Using SPL calculator theory, seems any of the lower power amps I have used in this room could have worked, but this was not really true. I guess some part of this is that my room and openly connected spaces add up to be a pretty big volume. Also the HR-1 radial drivers have intended dispersion effects. And, in this space, with my speaker placement, I prefer a slight toe out, and a slight angle up, so the front drivers are not pointing directly at my ears, but this room integrates more completely with the speakers this way, giving a pretty amazing, alive seeming soundstage.

Also my Torii MKIV is toned down volume/power-wise due to VRs and rectifiers that push the signal tubes in less than max ways, and I prefer input tubes that are not max power for the amps. Along with using a few active pre stages in series with my DAC, this particular combination and use also causes me to reach Torii distortion a little early.

But even reducing the MKIV 25 watt rating to 20 watts, according to SPL calculators, my 92.5 rated HR-1s should blow me out of the place. Yet I can get into minor distortion on very occasional hard notes with max peaks measuring in the higher 80s to low 90s. This is generally uncomfortably loud for me with max peaks that high, but many tunes that are pretty dynamic can go there with most of the average peaks in the 60-80 range, pretty normal serious listening levels for me. Yet using a few calculators tonight, each allowing for speaker distances from the walls, and running 20 watts, rather than 25, into 92 dB speakers, rather than 92.5, in theory I would get 100+ SPL at my seat....

Anyway, lots of variables, and perhaps I have more than some folks, but to me measurements and calculators can be quite useful, but may not be enough of the story to read like actual listening "measurements." A system/room can just be so alive to me, and amazingly complex.

How this might or might not relate to other speakers and system/rooms, especially with big, efficient drivers, I can't say, but my experience anyway.

All very insightful comments for which I deeply thank. I am 90% convinced I will be selecting the TORii MK 4 with mods accordingly and this will balance as most of my gear is PS Audio (Directsream DAC, etc). The last nail will be hard driven in after I speak to Steve. I cannot afford striking out again, 40 years and have gotten close but no cigar. This hobby can become expensive pronto.
Thanks all.

Manny,

The Torii MKiv is a fantastic amp. I've run my PS Audio DSD directly to the Torii into 91db sensitive speakers and was blow away with how good it was. Adding a quality Preamp took it to an even better place.

Will, thank you for the as usual, thought provoking posts.

Speaker sensitivity is something that is still kept as sort of a black magic in the hifi world. Yes the speaker might measure 90db 1w/1m. What does it measure at 2w/1m?, 8w/1m? The reason I suspect this would be an important measurement is I'm guessing drivers start to become less efficient with more power.

In theory a speaker measures: 1w 90db, 2w 93db, 4w 96db, 8w 99db.
In real use the speaker might measure 1w 90db, 2w 92db, 4w 94db, 8w 95db. (I made this up)

This leads to what is one of the recurring themes of new to Decware amps. "Will my speakers get loud enough with this amp?" Answering isn't straight forward as there is not a great standard to go by.

Db meters seem to be good at average SPL, max or peak they don't read fast enough to register what the peak was with a display. I ran a SPL logger in REW and watched the display. I would say the peaks were mostly 68-70db, with a few hitting 72db. Looking at the logger 74db was a frequent peak, at one point it did hit 81db! This was   pop song so not the most dynamic. In theory it needed 8x more power for that split second.



Then there is the impedance change with frequency... This all leads to there are a lot of factors at play.

Steve wrote something about 2 watts to bend your mind. Yes, it's not hyperbole once you listen on well matched speakers, there is the giggle period where you are amazed. Eventually you calm your analytical mind and enjoy the music.