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Issue with loose tube sockets on Torii MkIV (Read 7362 times)
PipHelix
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Issue with loose tube sockets on Torii MkIV
02/06/21 at 20:15:27
 
I just today received a gently used (8 months per the seller....from the May 2020 date on the warranty sticker until January) Torii MkIV and put the tubes in. Smooth sailing but for the fact that one of the 5u3C rectifier tubes fits very loosely in its sockets. It doesn’t pull out easily but it dances around quite a lot and doesn’t seem like it’s making good contact. I tried swapping in the other rectifier tube but no change. The fit is tight using either tube on the left side of the amp and loose using either tube on the right.

If this was my air cooled VW, I’d just open it up and gently pinch the sockets a little tighter with pliers to ensure better contact. Is that recommended in this case too once I discharge any stored voltage?

It seems odd that a tube that wouldn’t be rolled out would have loose sockets but it does!


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will
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Re: Issue with loose tube sockets on Torii MkIV
Reply #1 - 02/06/21 at 23:43:18
 
Hey Pip,

Welcome!

If you look around the forum at tube threads, you will see that many of us roll rectifiers, one of the most rolled tubes these days for me. So much a part of the beginning of it all, in these simple circuit/revealing amps, it really can make big sonic differences.

One thought.... the socket connectors are by design not tight in the ceramic socket spaces. So as I wiggle out a rectifier to pull it, there is some side to side movement even though the pins are held tight by the socket connectors.

Looking at some pics of the inside of my MKIV from below, the solder part of the connector is not perfectly straight, but is twisted/turned some causing its metal edges to overlap the ceramic slot edges. Guessing this twist snugs it a bit in the ceramic slot, but might also assure it can't be pulled through the top. I can imagine that how this was done could possibly leave one side feeling "looser" than the other without the tube connection being weak. Maybe.

Might want to check with Steve on this, especially with consideration for warranty and him being the expert, but I will give you my take.

If your sockets are like mine, you could probably tighten them from below, but I am thinking working from below may not be the best way. Most of what I see from underneath is the soldering parts of the metal connectors going right down into the ceramic slot. I can see bits of the spring part of the connectors that tighten on the tube pins, but not much.  

I have tightened mine before, and I am pretty sure I did it from above. There you can easily see both sides of the socket "spring" parts that tighten on the pins, and can likely gently bend them with more finesse using small enough tools.

Though I either go in cold, or shut the amp off with music playing to drain energy, to be assured, I tried to make a habit of always draining caps, or in this case, power connections with my alligator clip/wire/resistor rig to ground to be sure.
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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PipHelix
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Re: Issue with loose tube sockets on Torii MkIV
Reply #2 - 02/07/21 at 14:28:21
 
Thanks for your thoughtful reply, Will. Can you tell I don’t know much about tube amps yet? I thought that people really only rolled output tubes, but now I know that’s not the case.

I can take a video and put it on YouTube to show the movement. It seems like the kind of thing that’d happen after decades of installing and removing tubes unless it’s also something that can happen when a user installs or removes them aggressively and incorrectly. The original owner was also new to tubes and the pins on one of the smaller tubes are bent so this might have happened when they were getting ready to ship the amp. The power cable is also incredibly loose though I’m not sure if it’s the original one.

I found a YouTube video of someone tightening sockets from above and it seems very doable though it begs the question of whether or not I’d be messing with the warranty even though it’s not yet in my name.

In any case, I’ll get a video up so I can show what I’m seeing on my end.




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PipHelix
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Re: Issue with loose tube sockets on Torii MkIV
Reply #3 - 02/07/21 at 14:59:23
 
Okay, this link should work and will show what I’m talking about.

https://youtu.be/3ecsH3jpYL0
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will
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Re: Issue with loose tube sockets on Torii MkIV
Reply #4 - 02/07/21 at 16:45:26
 
Hey Pip.

With your Torii, all the tubes make notable sound differences, so if you are inclined to get into experimenting with tuning your sound, you have amazing potential there with 5 tube types!

That rectifier does look loose, but when you pull up on it, it seems pretty well connected. Is the tube base still glued on the glass, or is that all socket play?

Does the amp seem to work well? Are both rectifiers lit up evenly and the amp giving good sounding channel balance? Any noise warming up, or sound or tube glow changes with gentle movement of the rectifier base while playing (don't touch the pins!)?

I wiggled my tubes in the sockets, and they are not all uniform in tension side to side...like my right larger voltage regulator wiggles easier than the left. Also the rectifiers, voltage regulators and inputs are all easier to wiggle than the power tubes. I have changed all the tubes lots of times since I got my amp...one of the first Torii IVs. But none of mine seem as loose as your right rectifier, which I agree, looks unusually slack. Question being, is it just a loose electronic connector fit in the ceramic socket spaces.

I suspect it is possible that you could have a good pin connections, but unusually loose metal connectors as they fit the ceramic socket spaces. The metal parts sort of float in the ceramic socket, lateral tension on top connecting to the pins, and the bottom soldered to wires. So though yours looks worse than it would be ideally, they are not meant to be totally snug, and if the tube pins are well connected, I think it will sound fine.

The previous owner hitting the rectifier with the tube in, hard enough to stretch the socket connections seems possible (and maybe break the tube in process), but can't say! Have you looked carefully comparing the sockets on either side. You may be able to see something different with the looser one.

If the pin connections are loose, yes, with care and some mechanical confidence and dexterity, tightening tube connectors, especially the bigger sockets having more space, is quite doable. The little socket connectors are more difficult being harder to see in detail (without help) and having less space to work. But if used to "tuning" things, are sure you know the stored power is drained from the caps!!!... and with some nice little tools around, I for one was successful tightening mine.

That actually does look like an aftermarket cable, and could well sound better than the stock cable. Don't know if you are used to removable power cables, but IEC inlets on the amp are notorious for loose seeming fits, the outside plastic "connection" being so spacious. But we still tend to get good contact with the internal metal connections, power cable to amp. And it looked on the video like yours had good grab when you pulled it. I arrange power cables for the best looking symmetrical connection and tend to leave them alone. But if it drives you a little crazy, I have wrapped the power cord IEC end with teflon tape just so, or thin damping material like Herbie's grundgebuster, and making the plastic parts fit more snuggly can make it more stable.

As to warranty, probably should check options with Decware. The way it has worked in the past, to get the warranty transferred, you send the amp to Decware, they put in all new/stock tubes they know do not have issues, and then test it. With all new tubes, and the checkup fee, it adds up, but you have had the amp looked over, have an extra tube set, have a lifetime warranty, and have gotten verification that all is well with it.

Alternately, not sure how Decware feels about this, so I would check it out, but I have heard folks suggesting waiting, and if a problem shows up with a need to send it in for repair (pretty rare for most), then could be the time to consider the warranty transfer checkup. I have had a Blue Torii for a few years without the warranty transfer.

Hope this helps!

Will
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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Archie
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Re: Issue with loose tube sockets on Torii MkIV
Reply #5 - 02/07/21 at 17:25:01
 
Wow, looks like the whole socket is loose.  But I guess you eliminated that possibility already?  The loose IEC might just be how your cord "doesn't" interfere with the socket sides?  You can always bend the male (I know, we aren't supposed to use gender terms anymore.   Roll Eyes  ) prongs out a bit.
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PipHelix
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Re: Issue with loose tube sockets on Torii MkIV
Reply #6 - 02/07/21 at 17:40:03
 
Hi Will,

I actually haven’t powered up the amp yet at all in anticipation of having to tighten the sockets. I figured without current running through the amp in over a month my chances of getting an unpleasant zap are close to nil.

The ceramic base isn’t loose at all and you’re right that the pins seem to grab okay as it’s not easy to pull the tube out. Both tubes fit fine on the left side but both fit loose on the right side, so it’s clearly those sockets.

Interestingly, these are not the 5u4 tubes that the amp would ship with so the previous owner may have had a mishap at some point that he chose not to tell me about. Or maybe it was configured with the 5u3c from the outset?

I wiped out my audio budget when buying this amp so the cost of shipping it both ways, paying 10% of a new unit to transfer the warranty, and a new compliment of tubes isn’t in the cards right now. Plus, I don’t know if warranty transfer involves getting in the same queue as those ordering new amps, etc. I suppose a call to Decware might be in order!
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Archie
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Re: Issue with loose tube sockets on Torii MkIV
Reply #7 - 02/07/21 at 17:49:47
 
I haven't read this thread carefully but have you opened the amp to have a look inside?  I'm kind of a button pusher so that's what I'd do just to look for the obvious.

A few years ago Steve gave me a technique for chasing down a bad individual pin socket but it takes a sacrificial tube.  He said to cut all the pins off except one and to use that to test each pin socket tension individually.
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PipHelix
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Re: Issue with loose tube sockets on Torii MkIV
Reply #8 - 02/07/21 at 17:56:44
 
Hi Archie,

I haven’t opened it up yet. I figured that would be a move of the last resort. I’ve narrowed the looseness down to 3 of the pin sockets. The front 2 grab tightly as I lower the tube in place but the rear 3 drop in with little to no resistance. A sacrificial tube would actually be perfect for this case so I could tell if it’s really all 3 sockets or just 1 or 2 of them. Too bad I don’t have a spare tube.
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Archie
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Re: Issue with loose tube sockets on Torii MkIV
Reply #9 - 02/07/21 at 18:27:52
 
If you have any skills at all, don't worry about opening the amp.  It will give you a better appreciation of how thin Steve's fingers must be to fit all that stuff in such a tight space!

The way I look at it, if I try and succeed in fixing something, I save $300 in shipping and if I fail, Steve can still fix it.
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ZLC
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ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
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will
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Re: Issue with loose tube sockets on Torii MkIV
Reply #10 - 02/07/21 at 18:32:28
 
That Russian rectifier is a 5U4G-ST variant, so not requiring any special setup. The Torii MKIV is actually exceptionally tolerant of notable tube variations in all positions, but this tube is a pretty standardly used 5U4 variant, so likely not an issue.

4 of the 8 rectifier connectors are wired, and since some are notably loose, sounds like you may have verified the problem.

With the warranty transfer out of the equation, if you decided you are comfortable with tightening the connectors from on top and that does not resolve it, then it might have to be opened to check to see if there is a problem with the ceramic socket from below, and/or see if the metal connectors could be tightened in the ceramic spaces a bit.
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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Archie
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Re: Issue with loose tube sockets on Torii MkIV
Reply #11 - 02/07/21 at 18:38:50
 
Do you ever soldier?  Ultimately, if you have to replace the socket, it might not be too hard.
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ZLC
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PipHelix
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Re: Issue with loose tube sockets on Torii MkIV
Reply #12 - 02/07/21 at 18:47:47
 
I’ve poorly soldered a few things in the past but not anything important or expensive!

Also, I just busted out my multimeter to check for residual voltage (found .245 VDC in a few sockets.....not enough to hurt!!) and think I found the issue. It’s not about the tightness of the sockets. Rather, 3 of the sockets just dance around in the ceramic. They’re really really really loose. I just don’t know if it’s so bad that they’ve become disconnected from the wiring beneath the top plate! I can take another video later.
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Archie
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Re: Issue with loose tube sockets on Torii MkIV
Reply #13 - 02/07/21 at 18:57:43
 
If the sockets are so loose in the ceramic then the pins might not be engaging in them.  I think a look inside will answer many questions.  If you decide to try, first remove all of the tubes, all the perimeter screws and lift straight up  -- I lift my ZMA by the big transformers.  Ideally, you can rest it upside-down and supported at the plate edge but a very soft cushion will work.
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ZLC
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ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
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will
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Re: Issue with loose tube sockets on Torii MkIV
Reply #14 - 02/07/21 at 19:07:19
 
Quote:
I just don’t know if it’s so bad that they’ve become disconnected from the wiring beneath the top plate!


On the inside rectifier tube connectors, the transformer wires are quite heavy, making a serious solder joint, so I would guess solder joint disconnection from below is very unlikely.
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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will
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Re: Issue with loose tube sockets on Torii MkIV
Reply #15 - 02/07/21 at 20:19:22
 
Not to suggest there is not an unusual issue with how loose that tube acts, but since 4 of the 8 rectifier pin connectors are not wired to anything below, those 4 would be even looser feeling.

My Torii looks quite full now, with lots of caps, etc added or changed, so I found one of the first images I took that was closer to stock, then realizing the modifications would go on for some time, and wanting a record. I guess a few hundred photos later at this point, I just made a few changes yesterday, so ongoing indeed!

Anyway, I am attaching an image after some early modifications in 2016 that shows the rectifier socket pretty well. Yours is likely to look pretty close to this. The big socket more toward the middle of the plate is the rectifier, the one with the heavy red and yellow twists of wires. And as you can see, with good skills and ability to do it safely by assuring the caps are not loaded... as Archie suggested, it would be a relatively easy socket to replace. The others are obscured more with caps and resistors connected to them, so a little more challenging if those sockets needed replacement.

But since your amp is pretty new, I would hope yours won't need replacement, adjustment top and/or bottom likely making them act more normally. Fingers crossed anyway.

I have not gotten down posting pictures, so it might take me some messing around, but with luck, this will work.

" alt="" title="" border="0" />
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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PipHelix
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Re: Issue with loose tube sockets on Torii MkIV
Reply #16 - 02/08/21 at 00:18:28
 
Wow! Thanks for this pic! You’ve got those cryo Beeswax caps and everything in there! Nice!

This shows that it’s very very unlikely that a wire has become unsoldered from a pin socket connector and also that even if it did, it wouldn’t explain the looseness I’m seeing.

I tried to do a video but I need daylight in addition to my room light to get it to come out well enough, so I’ll have at it again tomorrow in the morning or afternoon to show what I’m seeing on my end. I’ll also ensure that the loose connectors are ones that are actually wired and take a pin!

Thanks for all the help and insight so far!
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will
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Re: Issue with loose tube sockets on Torii MkIV
Reply #17 - 02/08/21 at 01:05:54
 
You are surely welcome. I feel for you!

I thought I recalled all MKIVs having Jupiter HT coupling caps as stock.... if I am remembering correctly, guessing you have them.

At the point of this pic, over four years ago, I had changed the coupling caps from Jupiter HTs to Jupiter Coppers (the longer beeswax caps on the right front), while also replacing an Audiophiler 3.3 film cap with Mundorf Supremes in the power supply (the big black one with a gold M on it to the right of the line of gray and black IC labelled electrolytic caps). All the little ones bypassing these bigger power supply caps, Jupiter HTs (that had been my coupling caps), Obligattos (gold), and the small black ones, Mundorf ZNs, were early experiments with power supply bypass caps.

Though it sounded extra amazing then, all of these caps you see in this pic have been replaced at this point, except the little blue one on the far right of the power supply, and I do still use all the Jupiter HTs (the shorter Jupiters), some in different places, along with others not pictured as bypasses.

Sorry potential issues have put a damper on your dive into a tube amp. I don't expect that you have any big problems to solve, it just might take a little adjustment of the sockets while adapting to how tubes work (the sockets inherently a little loose) in order to dig in without worries. I doubt that your IEC power cord concern is anything to worry about, likely just the usual for most IEC connections.

It can all be so alive once tuned, I am guessing it won't take long to forget all this and enjoy exploring the potential of deep musical beauty with your new amp!
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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PipHelix
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Re: Issue with loose tube sockets on Torii MkIV
Reply #18 - 02/09/21 at 18:54:46
 
Well, I took some time to think through it all and I reached out to the seller. Of course he said of the loose tube “it was fine when I had it” which wasn’t much help. He was also new to tube amps and shipped one of the 6922 tubes with bent pins so clearly he wasn’t the best at removing them from the amp. I figured why continue to press that case.

Then, I narrowed down which sockets were loosest and tightened one of them with a dental tool. It made no difference at all in terms of wiggle so I decided to stop worrying. I figured if the job of the rectifier tube is to convert AC current to DC current then it’s either going to do that or not, that there wouldn’t be an in-between. So I plugged everything in and decided to listen to some music and WOW!!! Further impressions to come but right now I’m very very happy!!
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Blueone302
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Re: Issue with loose tube sockets on Torii MkIV
Reply #19 - 02/09/21 at 21:24:43
 
Hi!

  I've been following your thread.  I think it grabbed me because I had a similar issue with my first amp.  It was a Torii MK IV.  I had a rectifier tube that just didn't seem to connect as I would have liked.... a bit of wiggle.  I worried over it and like you tried to figure out ways to get it to tighten up beyond sending it back to the Mother Ship.  That said, it worked and sounded great.  So, in the end, I just decided to let it play out.  It never stopped working or gave any other issues.  Hopefully you're on the right path.  Enjoy!

Jim
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will
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Re: Issue with loose tube sockets on Torii MkIV
Reply #20 - 02/10/21 at 00:12:12
 
Hey Pip.

Glad you went ahead and tried it and that it works fine and sounds great!

A thought I had.... though pins that are straight are easier on sockets, I figure part of why socket connectors are a little loose is to give some tolerance. And many small signal tubes come from sellers with bent pins. Then, if not noticed and straightened, they can work fine. Just imagining that bent input tube pins may not necessarily imply the seller contributed to the looser rectifier socket per se.

Sounds like all is well in terms of power in and out of the rectifier. But, barring taking it to a tech or sending it to Decware, if at some point you wanted to go further, I feel pretty sure the top and bottom tightening methods I described, on all the connectors in the socket, could make the tube hold tighter. This could perhaps help insure your connections are as complete as they could be, and/or that there is not some sonic degradation from excess tube vibration due to the tube being extra loose.

Tightening just one connection on top may not be that noticeable a change with eight total. And even then, it may well be that the of intensity of the looseness is further into the socket.

So if it were mine, and I wanted to try to tighten it up some, caps drained, I would start by tightening all the top connectors that seem loose, just a little. Then, if that did not do it, I would open the amp, and again check to be sure all caps are drained, remembering getting zapped can happen touching many connections in there, and a charge is not just voltage, but current (and spec voltage on these rectifier sockets is only 5 Volts). Then gently, with smooth and/or protected pliers (to avoid damage to the connectors), I would try slightly twisting while pulling just a little, slowly and carefully twisting/bending the bottom of the connectors a little more than they already are. I think this could tighten the metal connector shafts in the ceramic socket a bit, while also tightening the top connector parts by drawing them down just a touch, adding tension to how they meet the interior shape of the ceramic grooves... It has been so long since I did this, I can only point to what to look for, but I think the thing would be to snug them up a bit without making them tight in the ceramic socket. I imagine you could find a way to support the amp top plate so that you could test a tube fit before closing it back up.

As you said, rectifiers are a part of the conversion from AC to DC, but as you will find if you experiment with different tubes, how smoothly, musically, and powerfully each rectifier does this clearly effects the sound.... Beyond things like different amperage ratings, depending on how the many variables of the tube's design and materials create its specific electronic flow and character, these variations can influence the qualities of the power the rectifier helps supply to other tubes, effecting their sound.

Also connections that are strong enough to "work," may be, but are not necessarily fully clean connections....possibly not giving the most complete and noise-free sound. To help illustrate this, consider how good contact enhancers can improve sound by filling subtle surface inconsistencies with good conductor material from the enhancer. In these revealing amps, I find they can sound really great regardless, but can sound even better if all connections are relatively optimized.

Not to say you have any meaningful issue....it sounds like all is well....just to offer more of the story in case you ever take a mind to explore further.

Anyway....it is good to hear all is up and running and sounding great! Have fun exploring your settings and all on your new MKIV!

Will
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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Re: Issue with loose tube sockets on Torii MkIV
Reply #21 - 02/13/21 at 00:15:09
 
A few more days in and I can’t believe how incredible this amp is!!! Somehow it sounds like I have speakers all over my room and imaging is insane!!!

Whoever said that single driver speakers and low wattage tube amps are only good for certain genres of music had no idea what they were talking about!! From Ellington, to Mingus, to Miles, to poorly recorded 90’s indie rock, to hip hop, to new electronic music everything sounds better than ever!! I’m really in awe!!

I had no idea it could be like this!!
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Re: Issue with loose tube sockets on Torii MkIV
Reply #22 - 02/13/21 at 00:23:05
 
Great news! Welcome to a new norm. Wink
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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Blueone302
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Re: Issue with loose tube sockets on Torii MkIV
Reply #23 - 02/13/21 at 00:45:18
 
Glad to hear you got beyond the tube issues.  I just sat down for a couple of hours worth of various genres of some of my favorites.  Everything sounded great.   It really does get better.

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Decware ZMA w/ mods, Don Sachs Model 2 line stage, Decware: HR-1’s w/mods, Cambridge Audio CXN (V2), Cambridge Audio CXC CD Transport, Ice Age Audio: Cryo Copper Power Cords, Better Cables: Silver Serpent Interconnect Cables, Maple Shade Double Helix V2+ Spkr Wire
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