Forums - Who is runing Pure Audio Project Trio 15 Horn

Kingrex

Verified Member

Posts: 22

Who is runing Pure Audio Project Trio 15 Horn
03/26/20 at 17:47:31

Is anyone using Pure Audio Project Trio 015 Horn speakers. I am interested in Super Zen Triode. Would like to hear some users achieving good results. These are pretty large drivers. I have been using a push pull kt77 amp with good results. But, the amp is very noisy. Lots of hum. I cant stand that. Looking for a change. I don't usually play loud. I really look for the accuracy of sound. I want to hear into the instrument. Feel its presence. Im not a muscle head looking for volume. I probably play in the mid 80 db max. Usually in the mid 70s.

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Palomino Seasoned Member Posts: 2507	Re: Who is runing Pure Audio Project Trio 15 Horn Reply #1 - 03/26/20 at 21:24:01 What's the overall efficiency rating on those? I built a PAP clone and it has about 94 DB efficiency overall, but not the same mid range drivers as the yours. I run it with a Rachael or a Zen. Fine on both for the volumes you are looking at. My room .is not particularly big 16 X 12.
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Kingrex

Verified Member

Posts: 22

Re: Who is runing Pure Audio Project Trio 15 Horn
Reply #2 - 03/27/20 at 00:52:21

They state 94 to 96 db. Who really knows. What is known is there are 4 quite large paper cone 15 inch drivers. It take energy to stop and start that mass. Not sure how much is really required.

I have never used a flea power amp. I am also considering the Audion Black Shadow. The tone is what I am really seeking., Not slamming bass. But, I do like a nice rich, warm organic glow to my music. Not analytical and winter clear.

I am also interested in the Whammerdyne DAM amps. 2A3 with 4.5 watts. Super quiet. They show with the PAP speakers. I hear they sound great. But the one person who tells me they sound great prefers Pass 200 watt monoblocks with the Trio 15.

Would love to hear from a Decware owner who has the PAP Trio 15 horn chime in on performance. Would love to hear real world experience. My room is 18 x 20 x 9 and open to the rest of the house.

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Keith

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Posts: 44

Re: Who is runing Pure Audio Project Trio 15 Horn
Reply #3 - 03/27/20 at 06:00:07

Hi Kingrex
I have the PAP Trio 15 with the horn. I'm using the ZMA to drive them. I'm probably using a tenth of the power, and my room is small compared to yours. The speakers are about 8 ft. from the couch. I love them, the bass doesn't slam but is rich in texture, detail and tone. It's very dependent on the recording, if its there you get it. I didn't like the stock capacitor so I tried a Mundorf MCap Supreme EVO aluminum oil. It was an improvement, but the Horn could be a little sharp at times. So I took the plunge and bought the Duelund Mylar, and Duelund carbon resistors. Really happy with the sound now. I think the magic is in the crossover and the ability to easily change the parts.
As to the amp, If I was to do it again, I would try two SE84UFO25 strapped for mono. Its an expensive option but the Whamerdyne (SP?) isn't cheap.
The rest of my chain is the ZTPRE and a Hugo for a dac. The ZTpre expands the sound stage and I don't think my room is big enough to really appreciate it. With the Hogo running straight into the ZMA it is more focused between the speakers. The ZTPRE pushes the stage forward. In a big room it would be the ticket. Both ways are good, just different.
As to the woofers, the excursion isn't big for the sound you get. They aren't like the boxed woofers that seem to jump. But I don't get the slam. don't need it. the tone is magic. I usually play about 70db.
Hope that helps.
Please keep us posted as to where you end up and any mods or impressions
PAP has started a Facebook for owners, I'm allergic to Facebook, might be some good there.
Cheers Keith

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Kingrex

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Posts: 22

Re: Who is runing Pure Audio Project Trio 15 Horn
Reply #4 - 03/27/20 at 20:50:09

Thanks Keith. If I knew how to post a pix I would show you my speaker setup. I had a big chunk of 9" thick glue lam left over from building my house. It spanned my garage door. I chopped it down and laid it on its side as a stand for my trio 15. In essence I raised my speaker by 9". Holly cow if that wasn't a huge improvement. Much better focus and the bass jumped in energy. I have been telling Zeev and Thomas they need to make a stand that bolts into the existing base. Neither have replied to me.

I also have a better mundorf cap and Jensen air core chokes on my crossover. I have the crossover on a remote stand mid way up my speaker and the cables lashing the crossover to the speaker are all 18" long. I have a mix of high quality copper and some of the Verstar Silver Gold. The cables are huge in getting smooth clean tone. Remote mounding the crossover gets rid of all the fatigue.

I am considering monos, but monos are only 2 watts. I get buying two amps and running them as bridged for 6 watts.

How much better is the 25SE is also a Hmmmm. 2 x SE84UFO is $2K. 2 x SE84UFO25SE is $6.4K.

You have been running 40 watts into your PAP. I have been running a KT88 pentode amp too. Its plenty of power. Dropping to 2 watts is a big drop. Would love to hear another member who has a SE84UF amp successfully running these speakers.

Thanks for your input.

FWIW, I won't do facebook so I won't be on the owners forum. I told Zeev as such.

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Keith

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Posts: 44

Re: Who is runing Pure Audio Project Trio 15 Horn
Reply #5 - 03/28/20 at 00:43:52

Kingrex, Sounds like a great setup. A couple questions:
I've thought about raising the speakers, do you think getting the bottom driver off the floor is what improves the bass?
Do the aircoil chokes make a difference? I was looking at some foil chokes but they get expensive fast when the inductance and resistance are matched to the original. My crossover is still evolving, I have the caps on a maple board, but haven't settled on a final setup, still pondering the choke.
Do the foil speaker cables make that much difference? I'm using the tinned copper from Duelund and often wondered if my ears are good enough to hear the difference. Often thought about buying a copper foil inductor and making cables out of that. How do you run the cables? I read some where that it makes a difference if they are laid flat on each other or separate. One way raises capacitance.
I Know there are a couple people running Steves amps with PAP, be good to hear from them.
Fun stuff!!
I was disappointed that Ze'ev chose Facebook for the forum. Refuse to use it. Probably good for advertising though.

Cheers

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Kingrex

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Posts: 22

Re: Who is runing Pure Audio Project Trio 15 Horn
Reply #6 - 03/28/20 at 02:00:26

I don’t know why the bass improved. I don’t have tools to measure. It was just a happy result. I was really just looking to get the horn more up to ear level so I did not feel I was looking down on the performance. I got both from that change
I bought my PAP Trio 10 voxativ new. I bought the Trio 15 Horn used. The horn came with Deulund, Western Electric and the Verstar silver/gold cables. The Deulund and WE were both to thin and brittle anywhere I put them. The Verstar was way to hot on the horn. I also had on hand a set of speaker cables a friend made from 24 strands of high purity copper tone arm wire, bundled together and coated in Teflon. I also had some budget Inakustik in wall speaker cable. In the end I found the Copper wire with Teflon was smooth and clean on the horn. All around nice. The woofers ended up with the positives feed by the Verstar and the negative fed by the Inakustik. The woofers liked that little bit of kick the silver brought. It seemed to balance the energy of the horn to the more soft nature of the paper cone. The blend of the Verstar and Inakustik was really because I had limited supply and it filled the need. But in all, I think it was a great balance.
My trio 10 are fed by a blend of Graditech and PAP speaker cable. The stock PAP cable is too blaaa. To veiled. With the Graditech paralleled, it lets through all sorts of information. Cables make a huge difference. Way more than the Choke. The choke is a small gain. The stock Choke is not that bad. I would put my money towards good cables. The remote mounted crossover is absolutely necessary. It brings a level of east to it all. It seems to just flow when the violent shaking of the frames is lifted from the crossover. It will allow you to turn the volume up way louder and not have fatigue. That is a $0 change you have to do. I put mine on a stand so that all my cables are the same length and much less expensive to purchase.
I don’t hear any difference bundling the cables or letting them flop. The quality of the cable is far more important. The Verstar are good cable. They will set you back some $. And they are sold by PAP to be installed to a crossover on a bread board on the ground. Not a good way to do it in my mind. They end up different lengths. I lied on the length earlier. They are 34” long. Call Verstar and say you need some cables. You don’t have to be specific on the speaker. He's not suppose to sell them direct to PAP customer so plausible deniability gets him our of it. Copper to the horn and silver/gold to the woofers. Or some combo. They are much better than the deulund. 1“ tape would work to the horn. 2“ tape to the woofers. Try getting away from the tined wire. Tin is brittle sounding. IMO.

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Brian

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Posts: 903

Re: Who is runing Pure Audio Project Trio 15 Horn
Reply #7 - 03/28/20 at 03:49:57

Does somebody know enough about logarithmic taper potentiometers to say what percentage of the maximum available power is being used at each number setting of the volume control of an amplifier?

I would think that unless it is turned to 9 or 10, most amps are playing less than 1 watt. The power does not go up with the numbers in an even or linear way.

Anytime a 90 dB speaker is fed 1 watt of power, it is blaring 90 dBs of loudness.

Brian

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Kingrex Verified Member Posts: 22	Re: Who is runing Pure Audio Project Trio 15 Horn Reply #8 - 03/28/20 at 15:36:25 Please not here Brian. I could care less the math and science. I would like to hear from owners. What's working in the field. FWIW, I watch the digital display on my friends 94 db amp/speaker combo dance between 3 and 16 watts.
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Donnie

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Posts: 2342

Re: Who is runing Pure Audio Project Trio 15 Horn
Reply #9 - 03/28/20 at 17:33:46

This brings up the question of who is wrong, the speaker manufacturer's 94 db rating or the amplifier's power display? Either that or you were listening with 106 db peaks. I do like music loud, but that loud makes my ears buzz.
More than likely a combination of both speaker and amp designers.
There seems to be a lot of optimism in speaker designers ratings, more = better. And then how are they measured? 1 watt at 1 meter or at 2.83 volts at 1 meter, big difference.
Now the power output display is probably something that was stuck on as a sales feature, something shiny and sparkly, more than likely not any sort of calibrated instrument.
I do wonder about losses between the amp output and the actual driver(s). Crossovers eat quite a bit of power and I figure that there are some parasitic losses through the cables.
Hmm, I guess the engineer in me is starting to show. 6 years at MIT* does that to you.
My advice is that if you don't think that a amp is going to drive your speakers, it never will. It will always be stuck into the back of your mind that you should have gone bigger. Save yourself the heartache and just get a more powerful amp to begin with and sleep better at night.
Though I know for a fact that the Zen will drive your speakers fine I have a feeling that it will just drive you nuts thinking that you should have went bigger.

*(Mississippi Institute of Truckin')

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Kingrex

Verified Member

Posts: 22

Re: Who is runing Pure Audio Project Trio 15 Horn
Reply #10 - 03/30/20 at 19:55:41

I could not find any anecdotal users here with PAP trio 15 using a SE84UFO. I reached out to some other sites and users of PAP speakers. Trusted sources in the industry using SET amps advise large paper 15 inch open baffle drivers would be better suited to mid to high 20 watt amplifiers. 2.5 watts would of course move the cones. Would they have the presence to provide a rich full level of playback at moderately high volumes is another thing. My concerns that efficiency and watts are not such an easy formula seem to be validated by deeper science and user experience. Other people with PAP amps seem to be utilizing 40 watt amps. Such as the ones I use now, or that Keith uses.

If anyone does pop up using a SE84UFO, let me know.
Thanks

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Kingrex Verified Member Posts: 22	Re: Who is runing Pure Audio Project Trio 15 Horn Reply #11 - 04/12/20 at 18:19:40 FWIW, I bought Audion Black Shadow. 24 watts with 845. Stunning compared to my KT PP amps. For my speakers, I'm glad I got the extra power. I can still tell where PP amps have more headroom. The BS are just enough power. If K decide to quad amp one day I might circle back to Decware.
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