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Thinking of Switching from a Fisher 500c Receiver (Read 1587 times)
Itube
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Thinking of Switching from a Fisher 500c Receiver
01/16/20 at 16:41:56
 
I have a pair of Klipsch Cornwall speakers that I'm powering with a Fisher 500c receiver.  The Fisher is a different kind of amp than say a SET based amp.

I wonder what kind of differences in sound I would hear with an SET amp, perhaps a Rachael.

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Lon
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Re: Thinking of Switching from a Fisher 500c Receiver
Reply #1 - 01/16/20 at 18:01:46
 
Well, a Decware amp will not have that classic tube sound the Fisher has, it will have a more modern, perhaps even described as "solid state" like sound with the best that tube sound offers in body, imaging and soundstage. The way I think of it is the Fisher will be a "Mrs. Butterworth" in comparison to the Decware as real maple syrup.
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JOMAN
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Re: Thinking of Switching from a Fisher 500c Receiver
Reply #2 - 01/17/20 at 01:31:14
 
I found this question to be intriguing.  Not having a Fischer 500c to listen to anything I would say would be at best a guess.  I came across a review of three Fischer receivers, the 500c being one of the three, and I took a quick read of it.  Of note was that the receiver was “restored” or “reconditioned“:

https://6moons.com/audioreviews/fisher/fishers_2.html

In the conclusion a notation was made that when the original tubes that were used were once again installed there was a noticeable improvement in sound or performance.  The tubes that were installed were NOS Telefunken 12AX7 - ouch!  

So to get as close as possible to the original sound of the Fischer 500c one is going to have to spend lots of $$$$$$.  Even then one can’t get all the original parts that were used.  There are other considerations as well, this is a receiver after all, and it would be an interesting project if one is so inclined.

However if it’s strictly about sound or performance, a new Decware Amp would have all new high quality components and you could roll tubes to get the desired sound.  If the budget is there to work with NOS tubes, I think that the end result would be nothing less than stellar.


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Itube
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Re: Thinking of Switching from a Fisher 500c Receiver
Reply #3 - 01/17/20 at 12:55:16
 
Thanks for the replies.  The Fisher I own was restored by NOS Valves, which has a solid track record for high quality restorations of Scott and Fisher receivers.  I'm running RCA black plates in the preamp section which sound fabulous.

I've never heard a SET design with my Cornwalls, and I wonder how the sound would differ with that design from what I have now, which is a push pull type amp.

Interesting comment about the SS type sound of newer designed tube amps.  Has me wondering if a contemporary tube amp might be too bright for my horn based speaker.


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Don Vito
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Re: Thinking of Switching from a Fisher 500c Receiver
Reply #4 - 01/23/20 at 11:48:15
 
With the right speakers and once burned in, you will have a system that IMHO is really hard to beat at any price. Transparency. spatial cues, timbres, dynamics, frequency range and speed are all there from one set up.

I have an old Conrad Johnson PV5 that is perfect with the SE84UFO... adds just a tad of warm tube sound to the recipe but all of the micro detail coming through continues to amaze me on a daily basis. Cool

Don Vito,
"Leave the gun, take the cannoli" ...
Clemenza, The Godfather.
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Don Vito
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Re: Thinking of Switching from a Fisher 500c Receiver
Reply #5 - 01/23/20 at 11:54:47
 
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Geno
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Re: Thinking of Switching from a Fisher 500c Receiver
Reply #6 - 01/23/20 at 17:39:19
 
Thank you, Don Corleone. Have you seen Fredo? He seems to have disappeared...
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JOMAN
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Re: Thinking of Switching from a Fisher 500c Receiver
Reply #7 - 01/24/20 at 11:50:34
 
Thought I would chime in about the SS sound of newer designed amps... I don’t think that would apply to the UFO25 or for that matter the SE84UFO2 that I had.

In my UFO25 and CSP3 I am running tubes that were made in the late 50’s and early 60’s.  On that basis you might expect the sound to be “warm”.  It is not.  Yet it is anything but SS like.  Key attributes are that of liquidity and decay that reveal textures and timbers of voice and instruments to a degree that make the end result very real, at times startling so.  The character of the sound could be described as cool or not as “warm” but in no way SS like.

If I want to get some of that “warmth” that is sometimes connected to tubes all I have to do is change the input tube to a National/Matsushita 7DJ8/PCC88 and voila... there it is, but with a trade of that is not to my liking... I loose some of that liquidity and decay.

I would describe the Decware amps that I have had as being very versatile and very revealing.  I was able to achieve the character of sound that I wanted to a degree that surpassed my expectations.  No matter how much I spent on rolling tubes it is a lot less than rolling components.
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Don Vito
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Re: Thinking of Switching from a Fisher 500c Receiver
Reply #8 - 01/24/20 at 13:26:11
 
Hey Geno... Mama Mia...Fredo now "sleeps with the fishes" , destined to listen to an old Sanyo SS receiver played through Bose 901's at FULL VOLUME for eternity! Now THAT is hell!

Your Don....
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Lon
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Re: Thinking of Switching from a Fisher 500c Receiver
Reply #9 - 01/24/20 at 14:01:13
 
My intent with my reference to "the best of solid state" is that a Fisher receiver represents the classic old school sound of tubes. I encounter on other boards many who think that modern tube amps are like this. They therefore think Decware amps share a looser lower end, a limited higher frequency response and a midrange heaviness, and they think only solid state or hybrid designs can bring truly deep lower frequencies and transparent crystalline highs.

But Decware amps can achieve these factors and keep the liquidity and sustain of notes and harmony and texture or as you note you can tailor the sound to favor certain characteristics with tube-rolling and cabling and power management and isolation and other factors.

I truly believe that the echelon Decware amps provide all the benefits that others think are the provenance of solid state alone, and also can be free of the limitations of classic tube designs of the pre-transistor era.
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JOMAN
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Re: Thinking of Switching from a Fisher 500c Receiver
Reply #10 - 01/24/20 at 18:58:28
 
Some clarification... Lon my response was not with reference to your comments, rather to the following from Itube:

Interesting comment about the SS type sound of newer designed tube amps.  Has me wondering if a contemporary tube amp might be too bright for my horn based speaker.

IT appeared that your analogy was not understood as as it was meant and so I wanted to reinforce what I believed was meant by your comments .  There can be a tendency to generalize and stereotype which can skew the meaning of comments.

I have heard SS amps that sound like pre transistor tube amps, some of the early Jeff Rowland and Naim products and I have heard tube amps that sound like SS amps, late Audio Research with the 6H30 Tubes.

I just about didn’t buy my Philips GZ34 Metal Base because there was a comment in a review about the bass being much like SS in reference to the tightness and density of the bass.  Even though I understood the intent I was still a little put off by the statement but not enough not to try one.  When I did put one in my UFO25 it was tight, dense and resolving but nothing like SS and I felt that even though the comment was well meant the reviewer should have qualified the comment a little more.  I ended up buying a second for my CSP3.

Hope this clarifies what I was trying to do.

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Lon
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Re: Thinking of Switching from a Fisher 500c Receiver
Reply #11 - 01/24/20 at 21:05:38
 
That's clear John. I think we were both trying to explain the sound and the nature of the sound to anyone who hs not made comparisons.

I too have heard both tube and solid state that sound the way you described. Generalizations are hard. And really. . . I feel for someone who is trying to get a handle on the Decware sound without hearing it. I know that I wasn't quite sure what to expect when I first heard my Zen amp #27, and that it was far more interesting than a sound than I expected.
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JOMAN
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Re: Thinking of Switching from a Fisher 500c Receiver
Reply #12 - 01/24/20 at 21:17:30
 
Yes, definitely on the same Decware page!
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Borge1n
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Re: Thinking of Switching from a Fisher 500c Receiver
Reply #13 - 05/13/20 at 11:56:22
 
Volume controls-on/off switches come up more often than you might think.
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Will.T
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Re: Thinking of Switching from a Fisher 500c Receiver
Reply #14 - 05/27/20 at 21:17:39
 
Did you end up buying the Decware with your cornwalls? I'm currently thinking of buying the 6 wpc SET amp to use with my cornwall I speakers and I actually am also currently using a fisher 500c so I'm very interested.
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Steve Deckert
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Re: Thinking of Switching from a Fisher 500c Receiver
Reply #15 - 05/28/20 at 05:06:06
 

Earlier the comment was made:

Quote:
I've never heard a SET design with my Cornwalls, and I wonder how the sound would differ with that design from what I have now, which is a push pull type amp.


The differences from biggest to least are as follows:  

1) Negative Feedback.  A SET will not need or use it, at least not a Decware.  Negative feedback smears the sound, destroys super depth in the sound stage, which is the most noticeable part if you have a real listening room because the amps with negative feedback will have a soundstage that doesn't go very far behind the speakers.  On the other hand the amp without negative feedback can go back as far as 30 feet behind the speakers.

2) Class A operation with one less stage. SET runs in class A for it's entire power band. It is a single tube doing everything so it never shuts off.  Because it is a single tube it does not need a phase-splitter (the additional stage) so there are less parts in the signal path.

Push pull amps are almost always set up as pentodes because the whole idea of push-pull is to get some power. Pentodes are not linear. They require lots of negative feedback to force them to become linear unless cleverly designed by Decware which is the exception not the norm.  

What does this mean to the sound -  With SET, especial ours, you will hear deeper into the music, it will become more dimensional, have more layers.  

Layers in a sound stage are a lot like bits in a recording. CD's have 16 bits where the least-significant 4 bits are discarded from the 20 bit masters. Negative feedback is like this. It simply kills (smears) the ambience that is in those 4 bits so you don't hear any real difference between the two.  

That said, when you take an amplifier with only two stages, one coupling capacitor, and two resistors with no negative feedback and use a 20 bit master -- you will hear those layers with the complete signature of the recording space in tact. If you're like me, the first time you experience this you get almost pissed, feeling like you've been getting robbed all this time.

So using these examples, worse case you will hear better liquidity, less smear, more openness. Best case you might see God. Your room, speakers, wires, source and ears combine to create potentially hundreds of handicaps that themselves smear the sound as we only hear it get as good as the weakest link in that long complicated chain.

This is why the difference on the street between the two amp topologies is minimized or missed altogether. Many listen to 16 bit digital, in their home with no room treatments and have the speakers and listening chair where they look good instead of where they sound best. Also, if they're set up for push-pull that often means the speakers need some power.  Then they try SET and find it lacking in grunt... which all combine to formulate a lot of the consensus on the internet which is never actually... spot on.

The Klipsch Cornwall are actually well suited to SET amplification.  That's what Paul Klipsch used as his own amplifier during the development of the entire original Klipsch speaker line.  His was 4 watts.  He called 100 watt solid state amplifiers, stoves.  


Steve




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