Has anyone heard these?  They are expensive but I think I found something like this on Amazon that could do the trick.

https://theaudiophileman.com/super-tweeters/

Interesting.

I found these on AMAZON.

https://www.amazon.com/Aperion-Audio-Tweeter-Theater-Speakers/dp/B07NPDBVR4/ref=...

Raven has talked about the importance of super high frequencies before and I'm curious, what causes them?  In a live performance, as you mention, where would they come from?  I've always thought it was interesting that my Ortofon Jubilee cart specs out to 60 KHz at -3 dB.

It's amazing that those frequencies can be reached at all.  I assume they've been measured and found "significant?"  Not super rolled off, if that's the right term.

Jeff, those AMAZON Super Tweeters have a crossover built in from what I can see.  Do you think that would help to reduce the lower frequencies.  For a cash-strapped guy like me this could be a viable solution.  Some of the other products out there are really $$$.

Jeff,  As I mentioned, my cart is spec'd up to 60KHz.  Given an all Decware chain, would you say I would get any benefit from super tweeters?  If so, what might I expect?

This is by Avantages Audio. Doesn't cost a bomb.
I'm getting a pair in next few days for trial.

You may read the review here; https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/avantages2/

Thanks Jeff.  I'll look into those.  I can't stack them on my HR1s given the top driver so finding a place for them would be my biggest challenge.  Do you think they'd still integrate properly if they were shifted a couple feet from each speaker?  Or should they essentially stack?

I couldn't find specs on the ZMA response but I did see the Torii IV goes to 20kHz and the Zen UFO to 80kHz.  I guess Steve has been extending the range as he's gone to linear and ultra-linear transformers.

BTW, the link you posted above shows the top range of your tweeters at 150kHz.  Did you change your ZMA transformers?


Edit:  I just learned that my HR1 tweeters extend to 40kHz at -10dB.  So something is going on up there already!

I remember asking Steve about a UFO option for the ZMA but he liked how the ZMA sounded so much that he wasn't going to mess with it.

With the HR1 design it would seem the only option is to mount them on a wall above or off to the side.  I would imagine that anything off axis could hurt imaging, especially if the crossover is low enough.

With the HR1 tweeter good to 40kHz (albeit 10dB down) I'm not sure this is worth doing with my other givens.

I didn't more than scan the review but the single driver might change the equation since there is no tweeter to integrate with and his high cut-off was relatively low.  Trying them might be the only real way to tell.

I am intrigued as well.  

I have read that these do not have as prominent effect if your speakers already utilize a ribbon tweeter.  However mine roll off quite a bit over 14Khz if I remember correctly.

did any of you guys hear Randy's Betsy Baffle version with the Wild Burrow W.O.W. driver paired with the Dayton AMT tweeter at Zenfest 2017?  
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-amtpro-4-air-motion-transformer-tweet...
That was one of the few "holy crap" moments of over 40 years in this hobby for me.
I'm not talking about something you had to struggle to hear.  No... I'm talking OMG in the first 5 seconds of hearing the AMT'd Betsy Baffle.

I had to have - and so did a buddy of mine.  When going from the standard Betsy with Whizzer to the Betsy W.O.W.(With Out Whizzer) and Dayton AMT... the soundstage exploded in every direction and "air" and presence increased 10x.  I could barely believe what my ears were telling my brain.
The above AMT is a proverbial steal compared to the other drivers mentioned above - at least as far as I can tell.  
You can find some reviews that say the Dayton AMT doesn't go very high.. don't believe everything you read on the www.  I am 59 years old and I can hear a dramatic effect of adding this Dayton AMT to my open baffle full-rangers, both Wild Burro Betsy's and the few Audio Nirvana models I mess around with.  I'm not talking about a "little improvement" here.  I'm talking - aint' never going back improvement.  
The only thing to be careful with here - is matching "efficiencies" of the drivers.  Some full-rangers are really hot.  This Dayton AMT is a match made in heaven with the Betsy W.O.W.

the other thing with any ribbon or AMT driver like this Dayton is "dispersion"... very good horizontally - terrible vertically.  This can be a bad or a good thing depending on your room and listening position.
Bruce Rozenblitz at Transcendent sound has a "solution" for the vertical dispersion issue with ribbon/AMT drivers.
Check out his "enhanced" full ranger speaker that uses a Tang-Band combined with AMT's - yes plural...  
https://www.transcendentsound.com/amt-tweeter-two-way-speaker.html

I have also entertained the idea of an "upward firing" driver of some kind, perhaps a full-ranger, like in the Decware ERR or HR-1 models that fires into some kind of "dispersion" sound wave scattering, deflector.  Or a dome tweeter like in the above links.
I haven't come across a good, feasible way to "manufacture" the deflector part.  I suppose a guy could get a chunk of some kind of relatively hard wood, and turn it down on a lathe to the shape desired.  
I've also investigated "casting" one with some kind of resin, but got to come up with a "mold" in the right size and shape.
Audio Nirvana has a model that simply uses another full-range driver in the top of a cabinet that fires straight up at the ceiling.
So many ideas, so many possibilities, so many projects to try.... so little time!  But retirement is coming...

Here is an inexpensive one that might be fun to mess around with:

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/ribbon-tweeters/audiopur-pla92-6-planar-ri...

At 95db it is not much more efficient than my speakers (breaking the Parts Express guy's rule) but at $23 it might be fun to play with.

I studied the various setups out there and it seems they basically have a switch that allows selection of different caps to change the cross-over point.  Some have l-pads but one has jumpers that allows the selection of different resisters to change the padding if wide open is too much.

I am pretty confident I can build on for less than $75-$100 if this tweeter is any good.

It only goes to 35khz but I have noticed that a few of the commercial offerings go this high (or a little higher to 40Khz).

IMHO, Soundstage is about timing. The more drivers you have, the more smearing you're going to have of that timing. That's why we are so often attracted to single driver or two driver crossover-less setups; they are better at retaining that timing.

Try some crazy placement with the SuperTweeters; backwards, firing off the ceiling, in front of the speaker bouncing off the baffle etc. At those crazy high frequencies, I'm betting that millimeters of movement can affect the timing, and finding the right focus point is going to be challenging...so you might as well go crazy and see what happens.

Mentioned above, why I feel SuperTweeters can add something:
I'm a firm believer that there is more than just the 20hz-20khz that we can sense. I don't believe modern science (and by modern most of this work was done in the early to mid 1900s mind you) has really given our senses a proper shakedown and measurement. Some things they can't fully explore with current science - for example, we don't fully understand how animals navigate/migrate 1000s of miles, or how a baby kangaroo knows to crawl up and into it's mothers pouch seconds after being born.

We are taught we have 5 senses right? Every grade schooler knows that!
But that's wrong!
What about your sense of time? Sense of balance? Sense of location and space in a room (kinesthetic sense)?  Do we have Magnetoception? I believe we do, as I've been able to sense magnetic pulses in extreme situations.

So, how do I feel this relates to audio?
In my home theater, I've had a subwoofer that would go down below 10Hz. Everyone scoffed at this - "there is no material down there" "I bet you can't even hear below 30hz" etc.  But I have seen a room full of people have a panicked "Fight or Flight" response to really deep bass during movie nights - nobody heard a thing, but everyone's eyes got wide and hearts were pumping with the Adrenalin dump.

At the high end of the spectrum, I believe the instruments projects microdetails and have harmonic information that informs us of timbre, size, and location. That's why people feel the bass is better when you do something in the upper frequencies - no acoustic instrument produces sound in only a narrow frequency band!

The more information we can extract, the more realistic and visceral the experience is!

I agree with LR on "senses" not being measured yet, experienced(sensed) none the less!

I have to say, you guys have caught my interest in this thread. It’ll be interesting to hear how you guys come to your conclusions or a least settled feelings on these things.

Best,
Scott

I had my son give the ST system a listen this weekend.  I didn't give him any prompting, but obviously he saw the STs so he knew I had a made a change.  He said right off the bat that he thought it was "more clear."

I left him alone for awhile to listen to his music and he later added that he thought a few songs were a little intense in the highs.

I measured using REW (I am a novice) but it didn't look like I was getting much lift over 20Khz.  I was definitely getting something from 16-20Khz.  Overall, the ST system line was flatter across the full range.  I don't know how that works from a physics standpoint, but I checked it a few times.  I had the mic at the listener position.

I would love that.   I assume you will be forming a new chapter of CDApS?

Colorado Decware APreciation Society? Or DDApS - Denver Decware APreciation Society?

Last time I was over Donnie, I thought I saw a John Denver cassette tape and a tie dye shirt in his truck.  Assimilation may already have begun.

We dare not challenge El Presidente's audiophile wisdom.  As he has told me many a time, he is never wrong.

OK, after a little time in the system, I am keeping the super tweeters.  

We'll see what the CDApS crew thinks when they give them a listen.  El presidente has dog ears.  He may start to howl.

Pal,

Are you using them with your open baffle single driver speakers?  I'm wondering if some of the benefit is due to putting a tweeter into the mix since I would guess that the single drivers don't quite go there.

I see.  Do you have any idea of the roll-off?  Bob told me the ribbons in my HR1s extend to 40KHz but are 12dB down by then.  I'm trying to get a feel for the numbers since some of these "super tweeters" don't really extend further than what I've already got.

Thanks.  Just what I WANT to hear.  I'm trying to resist more changes for the moment.

That was a nice test you did turning off everything but the super tweeter.  I'll try that sometime with my HR1s by disconnecting the lower speaker terminals.