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Show us your favorite CSP3 / CSP2+ Tube Combo! (Read 12268 times)
JOMAN
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Re: Show us your favorite CSP3 / CSP2+ Tube Combo!
Reply #50 - 04/25/22 at 12:22:30
 
Works fine in the ZROCK2 without an adapter.  The 5963 that is supplied with the ZROCK2 is in the 12AU7 "family".   I have the Cryotone 12AU7-WCL Long Plate in my ZROCK now, without an adapter.
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DancingSea
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Re: Show us your favorite CSP3 / CSP2+ Tube Combo!
Reply #51 - 04/25/22 at 19:18:33
 
Cool.  I'm on the books tomorrow for a 2 pm CST (9 am HST) consult with our fair tube guru and shall report back on the latest tablet from on high....
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DancingSea
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Re: Show us your favorite CSP3 / CSP2+ Tube Combo!
Reply #52 - 04/26/22 at 20:53:58
 
Aloha,

Had a nice long chat with Steve. †For the CSP3 he said the most impactful tube is the center tube, followed by the rectifier, with the two other tubes last.

He said Wathen is creating a new website that will have specific Decware recipes posted.

He recommends 3 of the ECC88. Can start with just one for the center tube to test the waters. The CSP3 is designed for 6 volts and he said the ECC88 is the only Cryotone tube that will work properly. He was very unenthusiastic about using an adapter to allow the use of other tubes. †He said only do that if you happen to have them laying around, but that it is not the preferred route.

For the rectifier he recommends the 5U4.

We compared notes on discs vs streaming. †He is using a Roon Nucleus for the Roon core instead of a Mac.

Interestingly he said the recent success is giving him more buying power with suppliers to make parts the way he wants rather than him having to modify them later.

He also HIGHLY recommended a Cryotone 12AU7 for the ZRock 2.

And now you know.

Smiley
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DancingSea
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Re: Show us your favorite CSP3 / CSP2+ Tube Combo!
Reply #53 - 04/26/22 at 22:08:06
 
Because I am a "toe in the water" sort, and based upon Steve's advice about which tubes in which positions would offer the most impact, I placed an order from CryoTone on the Wathen website for one 12AU7 and one ECC88 (for the center input tube). †The 10% off code "DECWARETUBES" worked for the discount.

Shall see how that goes before ordering the other 3 tubes.

As an aside, I asked Steve about which rear switch position (up or down) on the ZRock2 is which EQ curve. †Just like us, he had no idea which is which...

Grin

...only that one attenuates the treble, and the other does not....
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Lon
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Re: Show us your favorite CSP3 / CSP2+ Tube Combo!
Reply #54 - 04/27/22 at 00:02:13
 
Personally I think he was humoring you and knows exactly how it works, as it works as is explained in the manual! Smiley

Works that way on the three I have in three systems, and also the one I sold to will.
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DancingSea
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Re: Show us your favorite CSP3 / CSP2+ Tube Combo!
Reply #55 - 04/27/22 at 00:16:22
 
Haha. He actually didnít know off the top of his head, and said as much.
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jec3504
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Re: Show us your favorite CSP3 / CSP2+ Tube Combo!
Reply #56 - 04/27/22 at 00:41:10
 
DancingSea,

Good luck with your tube rolling adventure.
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JOMAN
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Re: Show us your favorite CSP3 / CSP2+ Tube Combo!
Reply #57 - 04/27/22 at 01:10:55
 
I've been doing some additional research on using the 12AX7 and 12AU7 type tubes in the CSP3 and simply stated as long as a good adapter is used it they will work provided that you expect to and are prepared to do some gain riding.

In a way the idea is similar to to using a rectifier that is not rated for a 47uF first cap but it works within reason.  Like yourself I prefer to stay as close as possible to what's outlined in the manual.  I rolled is as outlined.

Does one have to go to to the lengths that I am? No.  Using the ECC88-WC made a positive difference.  When I rolled it into the input position in the UFO25 the difference between it and a TF PCC189 was immediate.  I had similar results with the ECC88-WC in the CSP3-A.  First with the input or driver and then with the output tubes, in fact the the EC88-WC are still in the output positions.

When I rolled the 12AU7-WCL Long Plate in the input position in place of the ECC88-WC I did not expect to have the results that I did.  Honestly I think that it was a fluke.  This maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but it's like looking for buried treasure, like the guys on Oak Island.  So now that I've found this bit of treasure I'm compelled to dig further.  The 12AX7-WCM Long Plate along with the additional 12AU7-WCL Long Plate and the additional adapters are on the way.

To be clear, I'm not saying that what I'm doing is a must for everyone.  I'm quite sure that the stock equivalents will produce as Steve said "a profoundly different" result.  I've experienced that.  

So why am I doing what I am???  I'm a bit of a treasure hunter and the adrenaline is flowing, and part of the fun of that journey is sharing.

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DancingSea
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Re: Show us your favorite CSP3 / CSP2+ Tube Combo!
Reply #58 - 04/27/22 at 01:30:00
 
Rock on Brother!
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jec3504
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Re: Show us your favorite CSP3 / CSP2+ Tube Combo!
Reply #59 - 04/27/22 at 01:58:24
 
JOMAN,

I know where your coming from. Having a blast with my preamp riding the gain on my mono SS. Rock on for sure. Would love to play around with a CSP3.

DancingSea,

Make sure you have a flashlight for the rabbit hole your about to fall into.
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DancingSea
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Re: Show us your favorite CSP3 / CSP2+ Tube Combo!
Reply #60 - 04/27/22 at 02:15:27
 
Haha!  I havenít been above ground for decades.  To infinity and beyond!
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Archie
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Re: Show us your favorite CSP3 / CSP2+ Tube Combo!
Reply #61 - 04/27/22 at 02:36:30
 
Quote:
I havenít been above ground for decades.


Dead man walking! † Cool
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DancingSea
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Re: Show us your favorite CSP3 / CSP2+ Tube Combo!
Reply #62 - 05/10/22 at 06:58:43
 
Well, you know, I let the CryoTone burn in all day. And I realize 8 hours is not a lot of burn in, but my initial impression is not great.

I was using a 1960 Mazda 12AU7 in the ZRock, and the stock CSP3 6N1P tubes.  For me, the CryoTone push things in the a bit more bright and excited direction than I prefer.  Granted, Iím using a Marantz Model 30 class D (Bruno Putzey!) as the power amp, which is 200 watts into 4 ohms and not a 2 watt Decware - but in my rig, the CryoTone were off putting.

I also tried the CryoTone just in the ZRock, and then only in the CSP3, but no matter how I sliced it, the CryoTone were too bright and edgy.

My tube experience is limited, but with the tube rolling Iíve done so far, I always liked what Brent Jesse recommended right out of the gate.  Perhaps I need to give the CryoTone 400 hours to break in?  Not sure I have that much patience.  Especially given Iím spellbound by the Mazda in the ZR2, and the stock tubes in the CSP3.

Perhaps the grass ainít greener, and the wine ainít sweeter?  Perhaps I prefer a warm, slightly gooey-er sound?

A tad disappointed.  Dang these dark rabbit holes!
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Lon
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Re: Show us your favorite CSP3 / CSP2+ Tube Combo!
Reply #63 - 05/10/22 at 12:27:23
 
I have about three times the hours you have on my Cryotone pair used as inputs in the Monoblocks and I will say I had the same initial impressions but the edge is wearing off. A bit more bass has arrived and the treble is smoother. Still, these are brighter than I like tubes to be--as is the JJ "house sound" in my experience when using untreated JJ before--and I've been able to alleviate some of this with gain riding between source, preamp, ZBIT, ZROCK2 and amps.

I will say though that I hear decided improved sound--better dynamic contrast between soft and loud and loudest, buried micro-detail. The process certainly DOES †benefit the overall sound for me.

I can think of 50 overwhelming reasons why Crytotone is using new production tubes. . . but can only imagine how amazing an RCA Gray Glass 6SN7 could be if it were given this treatment! Right now I'm torn between these and the RCA. . . one gives a bit more of important factors, the other has the fantastic tone I've come to love.

More time on the Cryotone will be the deciding factor. In the past there are tubes, even cryo-treated ones, that took a few hundred hours to "be all they can be." Perhaps these will too.
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DancingSea
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Re: Show us your favorite CSP3 / CSP2+ Tube Combo!
Reply #64 - 05/10/22 at 17:53:23
 
Great insights Lon!

I think the CryoTone are more transparent, a more desirable to some audiophile sound. †But the tone, compared to my 1960ís Mazda and RCA, is not to my tastes.

I have been digesting the latest Daveís Picks 42, four discs. †In my DirectStream days (and prior to tube gear) the additional level of transparency wouldíve made such a live 1974 Dead recording almost unlistenable. †The DirectStream sent many of my long time favorite CDs to a similar fate while making my A+ recordings sound amazing.

Iím, for better or worse, only recently an audiophile. †In 1999 I researched and bought a decent stereo. †Meadowlark Audio speakers, YBA integrated, DH Labs cables, and an Ah! Tjeob 4000 CD player (about $4000 in todayís money). †For 17 years I never once explored an upgrade of anything. †I had yet to contract the virus. †It was just about playing music with the only critical thought being whether or not I liked the music. Zero attention was applied to the gear. †

In 2016 I wanted to know what a DAC was. †That led me to the crackheads at Computer Audiophile and within 6 months, I was smoking along with them.

The gear upgrades began. †By the time I got to the DirectStream Junior, I had crossed into an uncomfortable level of transparency that substantially narrowed the type of recordings I could listen to, while elevating the cream to new levels of wonder.

But I wanted to find my way back to a modern version of where I was before. †Where most recordings sounded really good.

My current Marantz (SACD 30n, Model 30), LRS, CSP3 (stock tubes), ZR2 (NOS Mazda or RCA) brought me there. †With great joy I play my old CDs. †And the recently arrived Daveís Picks 42 sounded incredible.

But when I put in the CryoTone, it took me back to those more transparent days. †Daveís Picks 42, the only recording I used for evaluation, was unpleasant. †Put in my old tubes, and ah, so much easier to listen to. †

From CryoTone I bought one each of the 12AU7 and ECC88. With the 10% off I paid $222 delivered. †What do you think would be an appropriate price to sell them both?

Iím convinced that NOS is the place for me.  Iíve learned that Iím tone centric. If the tone is not to taste, the rest doesnít matter to me, even if the ďrestĒ has its virtues.  The tone creates the emotional connection in my brain, and in that regard, the NOS Mazda and RCA is a better personal match.

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Lon
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Re: Show us your favorite CSP3 / CSP2+ Tube Combo!
Reply #65 - 05/10/22 at 18:10:54
 
Well, I love my DirectStream DAC and never had the same issues with its sound that you had. System synergy is so important a thing, and it's hard to know without trying differing things. We're all different. We were right about you liking the ZROCK2 and the CSP3 so . . . . Decware's pre and the ZROCK2 are part of what makes the DSD DAC indispensable for me.

Just as an FYI the tone on the Cryotones has changed somewhat for the better. I'm a tone-head too and the edge is gone and the tone is becoming less bright.

Don't ask me about selling prices--I always sell things far too low just to save myself the hassle of constant hawking of things and to give someone else a break as so many have given to me.

I only changed the input tubes and now after another five hours of use and my acclimation to them I think they are quite something--much more detail, instrumental separation and the whole presentation has become more relaxed. And I accomplished some of this today by changing the tubes in my ZTPRE to tubes that sounded duller to me before the Cryotone live-wires arrived. Overall I now have a better sound which I am enjoying. My next and probably only other Cryotone purchase will be the output tubes that Steve has had them process.

Have you tried putting the Mazda in the ZROCK2 and leaving it there and trying out the Cryotone in the preamp input? And then trying the Cryotone in the ZROCK2 with the original input tube in the pre? †To see if using just one Cryotone in either place makes a positive difference and still retains some tone (and the tone will improve on the Cryotone with more hours). Because I just replaced one per amp and it was a really positive change, and the ZROCK2 really does provide an all-encompassing flavor to the system. . . .
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DancingSea
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Re: Show us your favorite CSP3 / CSP2+ Tube Combo!
Reply #66 - 05/10/22 at 19:00:20
 
Yes, I tried both Cryos.  Just one in the ZR2.  And then just one in the CSP3.  No matter how I sliced it, the "live wire" effect was too much for DP 42.  Now granted, DP 42 is not an A+ recording.  But my theory is that it's best to evaluate gear with how they make the B grade stuff sound rather than with the A+ recordings.  Thus if tubes make DP 42 sound off putting, then out they go!

But maybe I should give them more time?  Right now the sound is far away from being relaxed, it's like a punk rock show!

True, in my DS days, I did not have any Decware gear in the chain.  It's quite possible that with the ZR2 and CSP3 that I'd have a very different impression of the DSJ.

I do think the Marantz is inherently more forgiving though.

Part of my challenge is that I only listen to 1 to 2 CDs per day, mostly while cooking.  I've literally never sat down in a chair and just listened to music.  But my kitchen is in the middle of the soundstage, so it's not as bad as it might seem.

But I can't easily just let music play all day to break gear in because it will make me sick of listening to music, unable to digest it.  If I go beyond that 1 to 2 CDs per day, I have to take days off.  Just my own personal weird psychology.

Does any breaking in happen if I just leave the CSP3 on without music playing?  I could manage that and see if the punk band transforms into a jazz ensemble.
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Lon
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Re: Show us your favorite CSP3 / CSP2+ Tube Combo!
Reply #67 - 05/10/22 at 19:26:38
 
Okay we're very different! 1 or 2 cds is like coitus interrupts for me. . . always has been. . .  I can listen for a full eight hour shift and still want more.

Hopefully you'll listen to more than just DP 42 to draw an opinion. Listen to something very familiar . . . that is my best tool for evaluation.

Yes, if you just put a cd on repeat and let it play trough the CSP3 that will break in the tubes. They do "break in". . . They sound much different today than they did for the first session.
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DancingSea
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Re: Show us your favorite CSP3 / CSP2+ Tube Combo!
Reply #68 - 05/10/22 at 19:30:38
 
Is that ZR2 + CSP3 on. †Marantz disc and amp on with disc playing. †But volume turned all the way down so I don't have to listen to music while it's happening?

If the volume is turned all the way down, does the disc music still pass through the Decware gear on the way to the amp? †Can I just leave the amp off and do the rest?

If the tubes can't play DP 42 satisfactory, then they gotta go!

Thx
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Lon
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Re: Show us your favorite CSP3 / CSP2+ Tube Combo!
Reply #69 - 05/10/22 at 19:32:25
 
Spin a disc on repeat with the ZROCK2 plugged in and the CSP3 on. You can leave your integrated amp off.
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jec3504
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Re: Show us your favorite CSP3 / CSP2+ Tube Combo!
Reply #70 - 05/10/22 at 19:43:44
 
Lon and DancingSea

Wish I had a CSP3 so I could join in on this conversation. That being said, last year I have purchased 6 different new production 6SN7GTB's . Would say 80% start out the way you described. Mostly bright and edgy. Not really trying to make a point. Just relating to your early descriptions.
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DancingSea
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Re: Show us your favorite CSP3 / CSP2+ Tube Combo!
Reply #71 - 05/10/22 at 19:57:38
 
Alrighty, I shall give it more time. Have a disc on repeat with the amp off. †Will give a good go of 4 days of break in with periodic breaks for the equipment. †Aiming for 16 hours per day. †That will put me at about 70 hours. †Then we shall see!

I can say that on the ZR2 that the Mazda and RCA NOS both sounded fine from the first moment, and got better over time. †But I realize the CSP3 is a different affair. †And the Dave's Picks 42 is a tough test.

I take solace in knowing that if the Wathen don't transform to my liking, that I can put back in my usual tubes and be happy as a clam. †

Why do we think clams are happy? †What about a clam spells happiness??? †
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Lon
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Re: Show us your favorite CSP3 / CSP2+ Tube Combo!
Reply #72 - 05/10/22 at 20:03:25
 
jec3504 wrote on 05/10/22 at 19:43:44:
Lon and DancingSea

Wish I had a CSP3 so I could join in on this conversation. That being said, last year I have purchased 6 different new production 6SN7GTB's . Would say 80% start out the way you described. Mostly bright and edgy. Not really trying to make a point. Just relating to your early descriptions.

Thank you.
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JOMAN
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Re: Show us your favorite CSP3 / CSP2+ Tube Combo!
Reply #73 - 05/11/22 at 04:44:41
 
I finally received my 12AX7-WCM Long Plate and out came the ECC88-WC and the 12AX7-WCM Long Plates went in the output positions in my CSP3-A (with adapters).  In the input is the 12AU7-WCL Long Plate (with adapter) and the Rectifier is the 5AR4-WC.

You want bass, tight, resolving authoritative bass??? Drop a couple of these bad boys in!  But that's not all.  

The key here is the synergy between all of these tubes. Especially the 12AU7-WCL (which I now consider to be special) and the 12AX7-WCM Long Plate.  The sound stage, layering and separation is excellent.  Although they're tight and resolving at the same time they are oh so smooth.  Vocals - the best yet period, very expressive with obvious nuance that reveals the emotion of the vocalist .  Not necessarily syrupy or old school warm/slow, just smoooth and revealing.

The highs are quite dependant on the recording but I've yet to have them piercing, brittle or hard to my ears.  However I need to give this set up another 10 to 15 hours as I only have 2 hours on the 12AX7-WCM Long Plates.  Yet the differences and characteristics are that obvious.

One thing that I will say for a certainty... I'm off the NOS wagon.  I hope that Don continues doing what he does so well, because I really don't want to go to back to NOS tubes as it's getting so hard to find good ones at "reasonable" prices.

My UFO25 has the 5AR4-WC, EL84-WC (another tube that I consider to be special) and the ECC88-WC.  I don't know if I'll roll the ECC88-WC in the amp yet.  

So am I saying the Wathen Cryotubes are better than non cryo treated tubes? I think that Steve hit the nail on the head when he said that the results were profoundly different.  I consider the difference the best yet for me.




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DancingSea
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Re: Show us your favorite CSP3 / CSP2+ Tube Combo!
Reply #74 - 05/11/22 at 04:51:04
 
JOMAN - wow, amazing. I want some of that!
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