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what power cord are you using on your torii? (Read 17886 times)
astro-chris
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what power cord are you using on your torii?
07/04/16 at 14:38:40
 
Just wondering which power cords people have found work well with the Torii
Thanks for any thoughts Smiley
Chris
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Lon
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Re: what power cord are you using on your torii?
Reply #1 - 07/04/16 at 15:01:59
 
I've used a handful. The one I like the most is the PS Audio AC-12. I've ended up with those everywhere in my system.

Now they are cheaper. Sigh.
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DBC
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Re: what power cord are you using on your torii?
Reply #2 - 07/04/16 at 16:22:03
 
I like the Pangea Audio AC 14SE MKII:

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGAC14S2

These are affordable, very flexible, attractive, well constructed and heavy duty. They are available in a wide variety of lengths which helps to control cable clutter. I find the 0.6 meter length very useful in tighter spaces.

Just another of the many available choices out there.
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Donnie
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Re: what power cord are you using on your torii?
Reply #3 - 07/04/16 at 16:38:32
 
I'm using a Wyred 4 Sound cord. I swiped it from my DAC and couldn't tell one damn difference. Nothing, nada, sounded exactly the same.
I'm asking Ameren to upgrade the wiring between my house and the nuke up in Clinton, but they are balking with running 20 miles of audiophile power cable for me. Cheap asses.
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donovan
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Re: what power cord are you using on your torii?
Reply #4 - 07/04/16 at 20:47:16
 
Anybody have experience with the ESP line of products? Specifically the Music Cord.
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Blueone302
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Re: what power cord are you using on your torii?
Reply #5 - 07/07/16 at 04:57:10
 
I had some work done by a guy that builds custom amps and pre-amps. He also restores vintage stuff.  His recommendation was Iceage Audio. So, I ordered one just to see. It made a noticeable difference, so I ordered one for every piece of my equipment.  

Here's the testimonial part. Our power was pretty clean to begin with.  We're at the end of a service line where there are only two other homes. And for some reason, where our power comes off the main line to the house, about one third way up the driveway we have a transformer.  We're the only house feeding off of this transformer.   Plus, I had the two outlets I'm using moved to independent 20AMP breakers and hospital grade receptacles installed last July.  After I  bought the Ice Age power cord, I immediately noticed a bit better sound.  Just my 2 centavos.

http://www.iceageaudio.com/

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maddog07
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Re: what power cord are you using on your torii?
Reply #6 - 07/09/16 at 04:41:46
 
PS Audio power cords.  Do they make a sonic difference - my ears say they do - a little more rez, a little more micro-dynamics make it through.  How do they do this - quieter?  less noise?  I don't know - it's just what I hear.  But I'd buy them (used, clearance, closeout).  And I've only gone as far(ridiculous in $$) as the AC-5.  The AC-5 has a heavier gauge wire in it than your wall - unless you run 8 awg like LonelyRaven - and it has at least 3 layers of shielding.  And the PS pwr cords have the best made connectors of ANY pwr cord in existence that I'm aware of.

I'd buy PS pwr cords based just on how they're made, even if I didn't hear a difference.  
I have yet to find a PC that has a plug made with thick, and I mean thick, solid, solid copper, nickel plated and polished prongs, with the wire conductors welded to the prongs(no screw attachment) and then enclosed in an air-tight, pressure formed molded outer case.  This is how PS Audio pwr cords are made.  
I don't care if you're buying a super sonic, space modulated PC from Audio Unobtainium, Inc. with Hubbell, Marinco, Oyaide... pick your boutique brand of plug, it has stamped brass prongs with holes in them and a hollow ground pin!  Really... a $2000 three ft. piece of wire with stamped brass prongs - even if they gold plate, silver plate, platinum plate, red copper plate, blah, blah, blah... they're still light weight, stamped brass with Holes in them!  The PS pwr cords are built like no other - that I've been able to find.  If anybody knows of a better "made" pwr cord - please tell me about them.

I have noticed within the last year or so, that Pangea is now sporting pc's with solid prongs and removable ground pins  - they are probably worth a look-see.  I think a few on this forum have reported good experiences with the Pangea's.

I have messed with some other brands over the years, but settlled on the PS Audio's - and just stopped switching around.  I do still have a couple older Audioquest which I use in the HT.  I also acquired a Wire World PC a couple years ago - I can't remember the model name/numer - it's a bronze color and is flat with conductors run side by side with molded plug ends and silver plated contacts.  I bought it as "an experiment" because it is physically different than any other PC I've seen with it's conductors running side by side instead spiraled around each other.  WW also claims to have some proprietary insulation material.  
How a PC can effect a components sound still baffles me.  I don't understand from an electrical perspective, how a pwr cord could affect the sound as long as it's of adequate gauge to the carry the current drawn by the component and is reasonably shielded.  However, my ears tell they do.
The WW PC has a "softening" effect on the sound.  This holds true no matter what it's used on, a DAC, player, preamp, power amp - anything - it "softens" the sound.  Less lively sounding, less ultimate rez - a smoothing effect.  I prefer the more life-like sound the PSA's effect in my system.  
I guess ultimately it depends on which direction you're trying to nudge your systems sound?  Are you trying to increase rez, dynamics?  Or relax or smooth the sound?  The PSA's and AQ's I currently have are in the more lively camp - the Wire World is in the smoothing/relaxed camp.
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Lon
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Re: what power cord are you using on your torii?
Reply #7 - 07/09/16 at 12:43:00
 
I am totally with you on the PS Audio power cables. Work really well for my system, I started out "lowly" and now have AC-12s for my main system and my guitar amps, and a bunch of others in the closet. Bought used or heavily discounted. . . they've been worth it to me. I prefer them to the Decware, MAC, Tara Labs and a few other cables I've tried. As MD notes, the "liveliness" and the quality of the build suit my needs and taste.
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Matchstikman
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Re: what power cord are you using on your torii?
Reply #8 - 07/09/16 at 17:01:23
 
I've got PS AUDIO cables, Signal cables, Pangea cables, this and that cables, and to me, they all make no difference.  It is beautiful to have ears of tin.  The biggest difference to me is the size.  Some of the cables are huge and thick and they are very difficult to manage which is probably why I prefer the generic stuff.

Probably a young guy with excellent hearing can tell the difference but I can't.  Such is life.
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Lin
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Re: what power cord are you using on your torii?
Reply #9 - 07/10/16 at 01:25:28
 
I've never heard a difference with power cords.
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Donnie
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Re: what power cord are you using on your torii?
Reply #10 - 07/10/16 at 02:13:03
 
I'm with you Lin. I can't fathom how changing the last 4 foot of wire that has traveled many miles and through many transformers can change anything.
My guess is that if I paid big bucks for a cord I would damn well hear something.
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Archie
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Re: what power cord are you using on your torii?
Reply #11 - 07/10/16 at 18:08:50
 
Why not a home run of Romex with an audiofile plug on the end?  Seems like the connectors (plugs) must be the weak link unless the fancy wires are acting like one of Steve's Pills?

That said, I belong to the "I don't hear a difference" group.
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maddog07
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Re: what power cord are you using on your torii?
Reply #12 - 07/11/16 at 18:50:56
 
I agree, logically speaking, how can the last 3 to 6 ft. of wire going into a component make a difference?  I don't know, but I trust my ears.  And think of it another way - your PC is the First 3 to 6 ft. of wire the power supply in the component sees.  If the PC has the ability to reject some noise, hash, RFI, EMI, etc. then I suppose it's theoretically possible for the PC to have some effect on the sound.

I was never overwhelmed by PC differences, prior to having crossover-less speakers.  Now that I am full-range, high-efficiency, crossover-less, I know for a fact, that my current setup is more revealing/more resolving/more resolution, than any other system I've ever owned.  I think having zero passive components between the amp and speakers is at least partially responsible for the extraordinarily high resolution I'm getting now.  This likely contributes to the ability to clearly hear differences in PC's.  Even though I settled on the PS Audio's a few years back, I have occasionally, swapped other PC's, including stock cords back in from time-to-time to see if I hear a difference.  I've even gone as far as having audio buds swap them in blind for me in a pseudo A/B/X blind test.  So far it takes me less than 60 seconds to know when the PS Audio PC's have been removed.  In my experience the PSA PC's have a "characteristic" sound, that holds true no matter what they're used on, source, preamp, amp, etc.  

All this said... Nobody should ever spend $$ on something they can't hear though... As usual YMWV (your mileage WILL Vary)  :)
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Palomino
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Re: what power cord are you using on your torii?
Reply #13 - 07/13/16 at 22:15:08
 
+1 on the PS Audio PCs.  I run an AC12 into my Power Plant Premier and then an AC5 from the Power Plant to the Torii.

I have always heard a difference in PCs in my system.  Not too long ago, I ran some comparo's with ProgRob in my system and definitely heard a difference between cords.  We both heard the same things.  

But on Lonely Raven's system, I don't think I have heard a difference.  Not sure why.  Could be the mystery amp doesn't require as much power conditioning.

The funny thing is during the comparo with Rob, I liked (and I believe Rob did too) the DIY cord I made using vintage Western Electric 16G wire best.  I am running that now and I'm going to try some DIY with 10 ga Western Electric wire I also bought.  

So I hear a difference in PCs.  I don't think you can go wrong with PS Audio.  Buy used for sure.  DIY can be fun too (and not too expensive).
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will
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Re: what power cord are you using on your torii?
Reply #14 - 07/13/16 at 23:20:37
 
Palomino, I will be interested in your experiment with 10 gauge WE wire. I wonder if part of the 16 gauge WE sounding best to you and Rob is that it is small gauge is likely limiting low low bass, leaving the mid-bass feeling more powerful, articulate and spacious. With less bass in the balance, it has less influence higher up the frequency range, articulating and creating more space. Even without subtle muddle from the very low stuff (sound I can barely hear here, but makes my ears and frequency balance crazy) an increase of bass in the balance fills in higher up the spectrum, masking mid detail and spaciousness....Does the 16 gauge WE perhaps help create more open clarity throughout compared to the AC5???

What do you think?
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ProggRob
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Re: what power cord are you using on your torii?
Reply #15 - 07/14/16 at 01:19:59
 
Will, I can tell you that in comparison to my 7 gauge Triode Wire Labs PC, the WE sounded quick and articulate.  The TWL sounded fat and slow.  Funny thing is that the TWL sounds wonderful in my system.  There's that synergy thing again.  Want to hear something funnier?  Check out how much this dude charges for a WE power cord:

https://www.thecableco.com/Product/Vintage-WE-Power-Cord
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Palomino
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Re: what power cord are you using on your torii?
Reply #16 - 07/14/16 at 02:03:46
 
Will, I am currently running the AC5 on the crown amp feeding the augies and the WE 16ga for the Tang Bands.   I'd have to compare and report back but I do think overall the WE based wire is open and clear.

I tried the 10ga WE as speaker wire for the Augies and it was mushy.  I went back to the Styx for the augies and the bass definition and snap was back.  

So I am repurposing the 10ga for power cord.  We'll see how that sounds.  I still have about 40ft of the 16ga left but I am holding on to it for now.
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Matchstikman
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Re: what power cord are you using on your torii?
Reply #17 - 07/14/16 at 14:58:00
 
Will posted:
Quote:
Palomino, I will be interested in your experiment with 10 gauge WE wire. I wonder if part of the 16 gauge WE sounding best to you and Rob is that it is small gauge is likely limiting low low bass, leaving the mid-bass feeling more powerful, articulate and spacious. With less bass in the balance, it has less influence higher up the frequency range, articulating and creating more space. Even without subtle muddle from the very low stuff (sound I can barely hear here, but makes my ears and frequency balance crazy) an increase of bass in the balance fills in higher up the spectrum, masking mid detail and spaciousness....Does the 16 gauge WE perhaps help create more open clarity throughout compared to the AC5???


And, I'm thinking....what?
Signal comes from the source to the amp and somehow it travels through the PC where the PC acts as some kind of equalizer and then from there goes to the speakers?  So, skinny PCs for less bass and thick PCs for more bass?

You would think a manufacturer would create an amp with multiple IEC connection and allow you to switch between PCs to suit your taste.

This is confusing.
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Palomino
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Re: what power cord are you using on your torii?
Reply #18 - 07/14/16 at 15:05:31
 
It's all about power delivery to the amp.  I heard a jaw dropping difference in bass by the addition a PS Audio P10 into my system.  Lesser impact with power cords, but still significant.

Cords, power conditioners, capacitors all seem to make a difference...at least in my rig.
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will
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Re: what power cord are you using on your torii?
Reply #19 - 07/14/16 at 17:29:53
 
I can only speak from experience with the Torii on cable quality and size, as I did not do enough articulate exploring with power cables before the Tori. I definitely noticed different cables sounded different before, but now I hear what causes the differences since I have been experimenting with a lot of different cables, materials, ends, sizes.... both for the Torii, and the rest of my components.

When I needed a cable to pull more spaciousness and micro detail from my new PSAudio P5, none of the many very good cables I had quite did it for me. A PSAudio AC12 was the best, but not good enough with the P5, at least not enough to make the combination transparent enough for me. So I decided to make a cable that conceptually could open the P5 to the level of open transparency I needed.

The original 11 gauge cable was too lean whether in the P5 or Torii or DAC, but it was of multi-gauge silver plated copper with Rhodium ends, the combination intentionally making a fast and very revealing cable...not warm, warm being one the problems I had with the P5 signature.

Building it up to 8 gauge, the very same cable and materials, it became notably deeper, warmer, more punchy, now giving very good balance and openness from the P5... deeper, but tight bass, more warmth, and powerful speed without sacrifice to now very good spaciousness, micro detail, and flawless integration of frequency regions.

It may be Rob's 7 gauge TWL cable acts thick and sluggish at Pal's due to the Torii's crazy ability to put out loads of bass given the right setup. And with more bass, the whole balance shifts toward thicker/denser/murky also thickening mids and making highs feel less present. Maybe the big cord feeds the Torii enough to maximize its bass/speaker relationship...the speaker/amp impedance matching thing. And within the tuning of Palomino's system and room, it was just ugly.

I think I recall that in the Torii design, the amp rides impedance shifts very very quickly, feeding more power as needed based on what would be to us imperceptible impedance shifts, and this contributes to its amazing speed and power response...Right???

Or perhaps the massive 25 watts, at least compared to Rob's SE84, makes a difference as well.

Or it may be that the SE84 would do a similar thing, but the break point into less bass (based on cable size) could be a smaller cable for the much smaller amp....Or maybe something to do with Rob's system/room tune. It would be interesting to see what a 16 gauge WE cable would do there.



Matchstick....there are a lot of theory discussions on the web on power cable materials, gauges, geometry, grounding schemes, etc, etc, including the "ideology" that all this is BS. I say ideology in this case because, to me, even the most articulate of the naysayers can't explain "the science" to my satisfaction as to why cables do not make a difference...certainly not any better than those who can explain why it does make a difference. And many naysayers give no real explanation, just belief, often without even having tried.

Not being able to hear these things is to me clearly based on other things than theory...system and room issues, hearing issues, maybe even "belief systems."

If the revealing transparency needed to hear subtler things is not there to begin with, at the source, it will never be there. And if it is there at the source, cables, vibration, speakers, amps, preamps, room frequency buildups or combing.....crossovers, caps, wires, resistors..........all of these vary in quality and signature, any one, or many combinations of these things could tone down areas of the original information on the recording that can reveal subtler sound differences.

And none of this proves that those who do hear these things don't. I know no one can tell me I don't hear what I hear any more than I can say someone who does not hear cable effects can hear them! But I can say without doubt, that in a very revealing system/room, the differences can be heard. I hear them all the time, as does my wife, and with her not knowing what I did most of the time.

I have read up on it, and there is plenty out there if you search the web. If you want more real theory and examples of experience, I would look more at those who find it works since we have more interest in knowing why and helping others to get more beautiful sound. There is even a forum called cableasylum. Audiocircle tends to have good forums.

And there are writeups from technical folks like this: http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/powercords.html

Personally I really don't expect science to spend a lot of time on cable/sound theory, or to explain strange things like fuses making a difference, the fuse direction even being a real choice in revealing systems where fine detail is not truncated or masked by system bottle necks. Realistically, with energy, we are talking sub atomic particle flows and interactions, areas where very subtle differences can easily change things. To measure the very, very fine, sub atomic aspects and interactions of energetic flow...with noise, conductance, resistance, phase, impedance, capacitance and so on, even dielectric interactions and "skin effect" make real differences in sound.....our measurements are obviously just not as refined as the human ear at this point. Not even considering more subtle aspects of sound we are not measuring, any one of these has potential for real sound impacts, and a few together even more.

I find the "science" interesting, and sometimes useful, but I don't need to know why I hear what I hear, enjoying "empirical" evidence from listening, and then learning/experimenting with how I can tune and refine systems based on this.

Here anyway, there is very little that is not noticeable enough to make the choice valid in the whole. I have been working in the last percents for a quite a while, and it is worth it to me, though it may not be to others.
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Matchstikman
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Re: what power cord are you using on your torii?
Reply #20 - 07/14/16 at 18:48:34
 
Will, thanks for the thoughts.  They are very compelling.

I wish I was close to someone that shared this hobby and could demonstrate the sonic differences between cables.

Interestingly, I don't have any analog clocks in my house because the ticking keeps me awake at night.  I can actually hear a wristwatch that is left at the other side of the house.  But, I can't hear differences in cables and PCs and I have various kinds from years of trying this and that.  I do hear differences in amplifiers.  I have a few guitar amps and I can tell you the differences between each one.

Maybe there is a change and my sonic memory is not long enough.

Fun things to consider....
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will
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Re: what power cord are you using on your torii?
Reply #21 - 07/14/16 at 19:22:07
 
Match.

Sounds like you would be able to hear many subtle system things if they were there, maybe refining finer listening perception along the way. Since you have been playing a long time, I bet you have more articulate listening abilities than you think...may just need to have something to use them on!

Tricky part is figuring out where to start! Maybe look at the more obvious things first...are any of the main components, particularly source... noisy, dullish sounding, not revealing fine detail, not sparkly or present sounding...etc?

Do all components sound dark, mushy, smeared or dull? Power noise could be hurting you.

Is your EQ up to the rest...do you hear more fine detail and nuance with it out even though the frequency balance is not as good? Any part not up to the rest?

Is your sound dark and murky with excess low bass? I find that what comes with darkness, even when well defined, low end dominance in the balance can mask fine information. Power and vibration can contribute to the mushy/smeary stuff in difficult settings. And tubes and cables, crossovers, etc can shift a heavily bass balanced but defined frequency balance that has fine detail.

Old tubes can introduce distortions. Do you hear subtle distortions?

If you are getting good articulation and finer detail across the range, but it is too dark, too lacking in presence and detail, could some tube changes liven things up...or more open ICs.

Are any of the ICs weak links? If the sound is there to begin with, the ICs can definitely change that. Even if they are pretty good, especially with a lot of them, it can add up, and also, one set could be whacking the whole. Sounds like this could be a fun investigation!
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Matchstikman
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Re: what power cord are you using on your torii?
Reply #22 - 07/14/16 at 20:03:18
 
Will, that's a lot of good stuff to look into and I will.

I have a demo CD I purchased a few months ago that basically help you listen for specific things and I know some of the items suggested were missing in my setup.


Along with your suggestions I've got some things to try.
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will
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Re: what power cord are you using on your torii?
Reply #23 - 07/14/16 at 20:05:19
 
Nice. Good Luck!
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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Lon
Seasoned Member
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"Love without
guts is
worthless!"
Philip K. Dick

Posts: 23313
Re: what power cord are you using on your torii?
Reply #24 - 07/14/16 at 20:53:49
 
To put my political spin on this subject, here is the sign I would hold up:

ALL CABLES MATTER!
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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