Thanks for posting this Steve.

For me, I keep the -20 Ref Level all the time (as you eluded to and demonstrated). I find adjusting the INPUT Volume Level at 0.0db, or -.5db or -1.0 to my benefit.

My other constant besides the -20 Ref Level (7 or 8 volts of output as you stated), is having my CSP3 adjusted as listed below in my signature.
10 of 10 for Input tube & 8 of 10 voltage for Output tubes.
It make my CSP3 sensitive to Volume SPL increase between 20 an 40%.....but it oh, sounds so good....deep stage and density!

Also, listed in my sig below....note: Volume output SPL adjustment for my ZMA....very important for riding the gain!

Good example is Lee Ritenour's 6 STRING THEORY. 15 Songs of varied recordings/Artist's. Thank god, recorded by my favorite DON MURRAY (Recording Engineer-not the Actor).  

Using the -.5 an -1.0db decreases the INPUT volume from my Transport and I use 60 to 70% of usable Volume on ZMA (-20 REF/ZDSD & 20 to 30% Vol SPL CSP3).......songs 5 an 6 of Neal Schon & Slash and Lee & Neal respectively, are all so right in timbre and dynamics! Just that -.5 or -1.0 decrease takes care of the "hot" presentation to shear beauty!

Then, back to 0.0 INPUT Volume (taking all in from the Transport) for the delicacy of George Benson on track 7 and swinging it with Joey DeFrancesco on track 8. Because, these tracks are even better recorded.
ROCKING the ROOM at 86db to 94db SPL....all so good (my Adagio's are freakingly good)!

I find as mentioned above and listed below (why I put it in my signature-because it is so important to use)...................indespensible.

So, once again Steve, thanks for your Output Stage Transformers on this great adjustable DAC and your Voltage Output on my CSP3 at 10 and 8.......and adjustment to ZMA.

Impedance matching you CAN'T GET with other GEAR!

http://www.amazon.com/String-Theory-Lee-Ritenours-Six/dp/B003K025TQ
....this disc.....every song is a masterpiece....you just press PLAY.




Listening Room:
Room Treatments from Michael Green & Home Brew

Sony as Transport (DVP-NS57P)/Sandwich weighted for Isolation
Illuminati D-60 Digital Coax IC

Shunyata Ztron Alpha Digital power cord
Decware ZDSD DAC / Recorder (@ -20 Ref Level, 0.0 Input volume and @ 16/176.4)
{also @ kept/-20 Ref Level & -.5db or -1.0 Input volume Level}

WBT-0102Ag RCA Kimber Select KS1030
Decware CSP3 w/Jupiter Caps (NOS/Platinum/Telefunken 6922/E88CC .....for Input Tube)
**********************************************
10 of 10 for Input tube & 8 of 10 voltage for Output tubes
Volume adjustment used at 0 to 50%
**********************************************
WBT-0102Ag RCA Kimber Select KS1030


Decware Zen Mystery Amplifier
***NOS/Platinum/Ediswan's CV2492/6922 in my A12 an B12 positions***
ZMA adjusted at 50% to 90% of Volume

***************************************************
Kimber Select KS6063 Speaker Cable 8ft WBT-0681-Ag Spades
***************************************************
Acoustic Zen Adagio - Black Pearl (Modified)


Acoustic Zen Adagio's x-over's Modified/Full Range with Mundorf MCap Supremes-single Cap to each Tweeter/4.5k cross
(Gutted: 3kHz/18dB/Octave, Linkwitz/Riley Crossovers....with all crappy parts = gone)

XLO Pro Power Cords to CSP3 an ZMA
PS Audio P3 Power Plant / Pangea AC-9SE from wall to P3
(Transport, ZDSD an CSP3, Regenerated/120 ~ Multiwave off...ZMA on High Current Output)

To further elaborate (Decware ZDSD & Recorder):
......adjusting the INPUT Volume Level at -.5db or -1.0db, takes you out of the RED ZONE on the GRAPH (that to "hot" up top I mentioned above), when needed.....what a wonderful tool!

I've said it before: Pro Audio meets Steve's Output Stage = match made in heaven.

This post provided to the lurker's out on the www! If this DAC with this output stage, could be beat, by higher price spread up to 8k,......I'd own it! 'nough said.

Steve, I couldn't imagine not being able to manipulate the gain structures. I will never go back. Thanks again for your great Gear! I look forward to reading about the new Preamplifier.

You bet Pal!

I'm confused a bit by what is being called the CSP3 Input controls.  I have mine set on 10 like Stone and my Output on 8.  I sort of gravitated to the later more by chance.  However, I am under the impression (I read it in the CSP3 guide literature) that the "Input" calibrates the Master Volume knob -- mainly so when listening through headphones that we don't inadvertently blow out our ears!

If this is the case, why would we ever want input less than 10 so long as we have the Master volume control?  I don't know much about electrical systems.  Does volume control work through changing voltage or by putting resistance in the path?  Does the Master volume control work on a different principle than the Input and Output controls?  Do the Input and Output work similarly or not?  I think Steve alternately calls the Input controls as the Headphone controls.

Or am I just adding confusion?  

i just love my CSP3!  couldn't imagine life without adjustable input and output gain!  i continue to try to explain this to my audio buddies... but they don't get it yet.  however, when they sit in my listening chair they do!  one other benefit i find with the left and right input/output gain is i can tweak the balance a bit for recording or room acoustics.

stone thks for the 6 string theory recommendation.  got it on the way!

Lon,  I don't have that luxury.  I play mostly vinyl and by my calculation I get only a little better than .5 volts out of my ZP3 which doesn't drive my ZMA loud enough in my room.  So, I need my CSP3 and stay blind to whether it gives me my absolute best sound.  This is along the lines of "ignorance is bliss!"

Mark, I bought a simple device that pads down the speaker cable output of the Torii and allows a headphone jack connection. I haven't tried it yet, but I think it will work admirably and I can imagine that driving the Oppo headphones with a Torii Mk III will be pretty awesome!

After a lot of experimenting I find the ZP3 straight into the Torii Mk III sounds best to me. . . but it sounds great with the CSP2+ as well. I just got tired of trying to find the perfect complement of tubes for the CSP2+. . . I weary of tube-rolling after a while.

I only use the CSP3 as an OTL tube stage between source and amp. I solved any transparency issues in my very revealing system with power cleaners, tubes, cables and feet.

I adjust the CSP3 pots for the best sound. I look at it as the front pots adjusting the front input tube, and the back pots adjusting the back/output tubes, the master volume then adjusting the whole with whatever balance I have created with the pots. Depending on the characters of the tubes I am using, the best balance can vary a bit.

With the original caps, I ran the outputs lower (I think it was 6), but with the Jupiter caps I have always liked them higher, giving more dynamics and tonal density that would have been too much with the original caps.

I typically like the front pots at 8-9 (-2 to -1) usually 9, and the back at 7 or 8 (-3 to -2). With the input pots on 10, I lose something with most tubes...have not identified exactly what, but 9 sounds more natural to me. Especially with powerful input tubes like the Telefunken E88CC I am using now, the CSP3 gets overstated and strident if the input is on 10. Likewise, if the outputs are too high, the mysterious OTL sound becomes too intense, again unnatural. On the output tubes there is the tube character of the pair I am using to balance, but also the OTL character the CSP3 design brings into the sound. The OTL output sound adds spacious lucidity, tonal density, dynamics...To a point, it is beautiful, but after, it can get a little overstated.

Once I balance the input and output tubes for the sound I like, then the master volume is the gain riding tool for balancing with the Torii MKIV master volume for the best tonal character for a specific recording.

My typical CSP3 range on its master is in the 1 - 2 o'clock range, give or take a little, this sounds best in this setup. Then if a recording is too dense/dark, I "ride" the CSP into the lower end of that range while "riding" the Torii up to keep the volume I want. At the same basic volume, with this method, I can adjust any recording to sound best. Put on a recording that is leaner, or so well recorded that more tonal density is helpful without making the sound too dark or mirky, I ride down the Torii while riding the CSP3 to the higher end of the range I like...say 2:00 or a bit more...or anywhere in between depending on the recording.

So, here, I get the most from the CSP3 by creating a balance that sounds right between the input, the output, and the master. Then by adjusting the master a little either way of this best-case neutral balance, I can get more or less tonal density to balance a recording to my system/room and tastes.

Syd, Archie, I think those calculations are a bit above my head.  I use a Rega Exact 2 MM Cartridge with an output of 6.8 to 7.2 mV.  Everything seems to work fine, even with the 5751 tubes at 70% the gain of 12AX7s in the ZP3. This with the Torii MK IV (24 WPC), CSP3 and HR-1 speakers with efficiency of 92.5 dB. Mark.

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-7436-rega-exact-2-mm-phono-cartridge.aspx

So Archie, since you have a calculator with a log function, could you calculate the dB required of my phonostage to amplify a cart with 7 mV output to 1V...as per the article. Mark

Mark,Syd, I did the calculation and came up with a 43.1 dB gain needed for my Cart from the phonostage...pretty close to the 42 dB Steve states for the ZP3.  I found a scientific calculator on my computer. Mark.

PS...so I guess if I wanted to, I could run the ZP3 directly via the Torii MK IV since additional gain isn't needed from the CSP3.  I'll leave the CSP3 in the chain anyway...I like it.

Archie, the dial on the MC1 isn`t to adjust the turns ratio but either capacitance or resistance, more like capacitance I would think. tbh it doesn`t sound like it does anything until it gets near max when something starts distorting.

If anything I would think a bigger turns ratio than x20 would  deliver more voltage to the CSP2+ and then be comparable to other sources.

However, when delving into the complex world of step up compatability there is no definitive answer. The ZMC1 uses Sowter coils and their comparable model for .34mV ( they quote .28 and thats right because Benz use a different cps figure for their carts) is a 10:1  or 12:1...or 20:1 http://www.sowter.co.uk/phono-cartridge-transformers.php

I dont get any distortion as things stand and am extremely happy with the Benz cart. It`s capable of what you would expect for the calibre of the lps model.

It`s just one of those horrid inklings you get when you wonder if I jumped in too quick because of a x20 calculation and that maybe, just maybe I should have gone for the ZMC2...or 3 with lower ratio`s. Who knows, in the whacky world of SUT`s they might be louder.

I turned the pre/in down a notch during a session just now and turned the master volume down a little and it`s surprising how much power still comes out. I noticed the bass had more grunt.

I liked my Ortofon Archie, I remember it was really good at tone/timbre.
You not tempted by a  MC Archie ?

I cant help you with any science on MC SUT`s Archie. A lot of these audio people will have several SUT`s to swap around....

My view is that mc carts have more range & the highs have more sparkle....cymbals are clearer and music sounds better and more musical and natural with mc carts.  I have 3 tts and switched to two denon carts that use mc step ups and have no humm issues into my 2 decware pre's....The other tt runs into my decware zp3 into the mm input but since it's a high output mc cart no step up needed...it's a denon 110 mc cart and sounds far better than a same priced mm cart imho...also from what I read mc carts have more longevity than mm carts and seem better made...more rugged.  I noticed big improvement in all my vinyl sound since I changed to mc carts..I wanted to hear the difference and to my ears they are worth the sometimes more expense and the extra cable and sut....
Dave
dla405j

Guilty as charged!    

Syd, My reading comprehension needs a SUT!  I just saw where you are getting about 7 mV out of your SUT which I was reading as 7 V.  That makes a lot more sense now  Physics still holds!  

Dave wrote:
"The CSP3 allows you to squeeze the voltage down from the DAC (input control), similar to pumping the same volume of water through a smaller pipe, which would increase the velocity of the water, allowing for a more dynamic stream.  You can then increase the size of the pipe at the CSP3 output (w/30V of gain) in order to feed that into the amp.  Is that correct?

Stone, from what I gather from your settings you are keeping the size of the pipe large at both the input to the CSP3 (Input at 10/10, therefore taking all 8V from the DAC) and at the output (squeezing it down very slightly out to the amp, 8/10).  Is that correct?  You leave the volume constant on the ZMA and control it with the CSP3?  

Do your settings suggest that the ZMA likes a lot of gain?  Can you get to louder volumes without clipping by pushing more voltage to the ZMA?  

Also Stone, to clarify, the -0.5—1.0 decrease is on your Sony transport?  Or is that also a control on the ZDSD"?




Hi Dave:

First paragraph = correct, mostly, it does not increase the velocity from the DAC/ZDSD...it turns the INPUT Volume down, coming from my Transport, with the -.5 or -1.0db. Then, it does the rest as you stated through my CSP3.

Second paragraph correct, except for: I do adjust the ZMA between 50 to 90%, in conjunction with adjusting the Volume SPL of the CSP3, between a very sensitive 20 to 40%.....on any given recording....to maximize it.

Third paragraph, that is correct Dave and the Beauty of my Gain Structure Adjustments! I can get VERY Loud without clipping....drive the CSP3 higher Vol SPL in to my ZMA and bring the ZMA Vol down to 50 or 60%...depends on the Recording I'm spinning. Once again, for maximum blow your mind fidelity.

Fourth paragraph, the -.5 and -1.0 I use, are on the ZDSD DAC INPUT Volume, tampering down the Input coming from the Transport.

Dave wrote:
"Do your settings suggest that the ZMA likes a lot of gain"?

Knock ~ knock ~ who's there? GAIN

I'm not suggesting the ZMA likes GAIN. It's a fact. Steve designed his Output Stage Trannies to work in conjunction with the -20 Output Volume of the ZDSD, to drive the ZMA Direct (sans CSP3 ). I prefer the better performance of the Gain Structures with the CSP3. The Transparency & Ferocity are there....in my System. ....and of course, the Stone of Tone....and all that entails.

You bet Dave. Yes, Will's Reply #17, mirrors my experience in a lot of ways. So, nice to have a backing 2nd Opinion. Different settings: Will has the IV and I have the ZMA.

Well Friday I put my favorite CSP2+ back in the chain between the DirectStream (one input) and the Denon universal player (the other input) and the Torii Mk III.

Played around all I could this weekend with input and output settings, the preamp in the DirectStream, and the input gain on the Torii. Enlisted Lucinda's ears and opinions as well. Got it sounding really nice. This morning I took the CSP2+ out of the chain for the DirectStream, running the DirectStream straight into the Torii. . . and I have to say I prefer this set up. The preamp in the DirectStream is very very good, and it has a balance function. . .and to me everything sounds best with the Torii at 9/10s full volume and using the DirectStream to alter volume between sources. So I'm sticking to it. This is the most transparent sounding to me without sounding thick with natural compression, and sounds most realistic to me with the reference materials I use (mostly recordings I made myself and recordings I've listened to twenty to forty years).

So I'm sticking with this combination and just enjoying the music!

I'll use the CS2+ for the ZP3 (sounds great either with the CSP2+ or directly into the Torii) and the Denon (for SACD playback --scrumptious-- or some video content). For most of my listening the bit of gain riding I do between DirectStream and the Torii, and the clear and open sound, just those two together are a joy.

Stone,

I agree although I have a CSP2+.  The ability to fine tune the sound often leaves me in awe.

JD