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Riding the Gain - Video 1 (Read 28408 times)
Steve Deckert
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Riding the Gain - Video 1
10/13/15 at 02:13:33
 
I found this 5 minute slice of video from the 72 hours that got recorded from the fest...  It motivates me to just make a real video on the topic where it is easier to understand so with the wishful thinking I will make a second video, I have named this "Riding the Gain" video 1.

I only saved it because A) it's a common question - what the hell is it? and B) You can hear it happen in the video. So until I make something better, this may turn some people on to what it is.  Headphones are recommended since they make hearing the spoken word through the music easier.... nevertheless I have added subtitles where needed to help you follow along.

Here is a link to the video:  https://decware.wistia.com/medias/mx9wi1e47i

Steve Smiley
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #1 - 10/13/15 at 15:24:32
 
Thanks for posting this Steve.

For me, I keep the -20 Ref Level all the time (as you eluded to and demonstrated). I find adjusting the INPUT Volume Level at 0.0db, or -.5db or -1.0 to my benefit.

My other constant besides the -20 Ref Level (7 or 8 volts of output as you stated), is having my CSP3 adjusted as listed below in my signature.
10 of 10 for Input tube & 8 of 10 voltage for Output tubes.
It make my CSP3 sensitive to Volume SPL increase between 20 an 40%.....but it oh, sounds so good....deep stage and density!

Also, listed in my sig below....note: Volume output SPL adjustment for my ZMA....very important for riding the gain!

Good example is Lee Ritenour's 6 STRING THEORY. 15 Songs of varied recordings/Artist's. Thank god, recorded by my favorite DON MURRAY (Recording Engineer-not the Actor).   Grin

Using the -.5 an -1.0db decreases the INPUT volume from my Transport and I use 60 to 70% of usable Volume on ZMA (-20 REF/ZDSD & 20 to 30% Vol SPL CSP3).......songs 5 an 6 of Neal Schon & Slash and Lee & Neal respectively, are all so right in timbre and dynamics! Just that -.5 or -1.0 decrease takes care of the "hot" presentation to shear beauty!

Then, back to 0.0 INPUT Volume (taking all in from the Transport) for the delicacy of George Benson on track 7 and swinging it with Joey DeFrancesco on track 8. Because, these tracks are even better recorded.
ROCKING the ROOM at 86db to 94db SPL....all so good (my Adagio's are freakingly good)!

I find as mentioned above and listed below (why I put it in my signature-because it is so important to use)...................indespensible.

So, once again Steve, thanks for your Output Stage Transformers on this great adjustable DAC and your Voltage Output on my CSP3 at 10 and 8.......and adjustment to ZMA.

Impedance matching you CAN'T GET with other GEAR!

http://www.amazon.com/String-Theory-Lee-Ritenours-Six/dp/B003K025TQ
....this disc.....every song is a masterpiece....you just press PLAY.




Listening Room:
Room Treatments from Michael Green & Home Brew

Sony as Transport (DVP-NS57P)/Sandwich weighted for Isolation
Illuminati D-60 Digital Coax IC

Shunyata Ztron Alpha Digital power cord
Decware ZDSD DAC / Recorder (@ -20 Ref Level, 0.0 Input volume and @ 16/176.4)
{also @ kept/-20 Ref Level & -.5db or -1.0 Input volume Level}

WBT-0102Ag RCA Kimber Select KS1030
Decware CSP3 w/Jupiter Caps (NOS/Platinum/Telefunken 6922/E88CC .....for Input Tube)
**********************************************
10 of 10 for Input tube & 8 of 10 voltage for Output tubes
Volume adjustment used at 0 to 50%
**********************************************
WBT-0102Ag RCA Kimber Select KS1030


Decware Zen Mystery Amplifier
***NOS/Platinum/Ediswan's CV2492/6922 in my A12 an B12 positions***
ZMA adjusted at 50% to 90% of Volume

***************************************************
Kimber Select KS6063 Speaker Cable 8ft WBT-0681-Ag Spades
***************************************************
Acoustic Zen Adagio - Black Pearl (Modified)


Acoustic Zen Adagio's x-over's Modified/Full Range with Mundorf MCap Supremes-single Cap to each Tweeter/4.5k cross
(Gutted: 3kHz/18dB/Octave, Linkwitz/Riley Crossovers....with all crappy parts = gone)

XLO Pro Power Cords to CSP3 an ZMA
PS Audio P3 Power Plant / Pangea AC-9SE from wall to P3
(Transport, ZDSD an CSP3, Regenerated/120 ~ Multiwave off...ZMA on High Current Output)
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Room Treats-M.Green & mine
Sony TPort
Illuminati D60
Shunyata Z-Alpha DigPcord
Decware ZDSD DAC
Kimber Select KS1030
XLOProPcord
Decware ZMA/25th Mods
Kimber Select KS6063
Acoustic Zen Adagio/Modified
Kimber PK10 Palladian from wall
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #2 - 10/13/15 at 18:23:54
 
I better clarified/edited, my using of voltage output and Volume/Gain above.
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Room Treats-M.Green & mine
Sony TPort
Illuminati D60
Shunyata Z-Alpha DigPcord
Decware ZDSD DAC
Kimber Select KS1030
XLOProPcord
Decware ZMA/25th Mods
Kimber Select KS6063
Acoustic Zen Adagio/Modified
Kimber PK10 Palladian from wall
to PS Audio P3
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #3 - 10/14/15 at 16:52:52
 
To further elaborate (Decware ZDSD & Recorder):
......adjusting the INPUT Volume Level at -.5db or -1.0db, takes you out of the RED ZONE on the GRAPH (that to "hot" up top I mentioned above), when needed.....what a wonderful tool!

I've said it before: Pro Audio meets Steve's Output Stage = match made in heaven.

This post provided to the lurker's out on the www! If this DAC with this output stage, could be beat, by higher price spread up to 8k,......I'd own it! 'nough said.
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Room Treats-M.Green & mine
Sony TPort
Illuminati D60
Shunyata Z-Alpha DigPcord
Decware ZDSD DAC
Kimber Select KS1030
XLOProPcord
Decware ZMA/25th Mods
Kimber Select KS6063
Acoustic Zen Adagio/Modified
Kimber PK10 Palladian from wall
to PS Audio P3
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Steve Deckert
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If the 1st watt
sucks why continue?

Posts: 6234
Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #4 - 10/16/15 at 04:16:16
 
Well, Stone, I have to say you completely get it when comes to the delicate interplay of gain structures throughout the signal path.  Just imagine what it would be like if you couldn't manipulate the gain structures... oh yea, main stream audio, I forgot Wink  Anyway it's nice to see someone take it to it's necessary end point and dare to explain it and then succeed in explaining it.  Well done!  I think you should make video2!

Steve
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #5 - 10/16/15 at 16:26:50
 
Steve, I couldn't imagine not being able to manipulate the gain structures. I will never go back. Thanks again for your great Gear! I look forward to reading about the new Preamplifier.
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Room Treats-M.Green & mine
Sony TPort
Illuminati D60
Shunyata Z-Alpha DigPcord
Decware ZDSD DAC
Kimber Select KS1030
XLOProPcord
Decware ZMA/25th Mods
Kimber Select KS6063
Acoustic Zen Adagio/Modified
Kimber PK10 Palladian from wall
to PS Audio P3
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Palomino
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #6 - 10/16/15 at 16:56:06
 
Bring it to CDApS to demo!

By the way, love some cuts off 6 String Theory.
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i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #7 - 10/16/15 at 17:59:33
 
You bet Pal!
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Room Treats-M.Green & mine
Sony TPort
Illuminati D60
Shunyata Z-Alpha DigPcord
Decware ZDSD DAC
Kimber Select KS1030
XLOProPcord
Decware ZMA/25th Mods
Kimber Select KS6063
Acoustic Zen Adagio/Modified
Kimber PK10 Palladian from wall
to PS Audio P3
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Dave1210
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #8 - 10/17/15 at 01:25:16
 
Great discussion.  It helped to hear what is occurring on the video.  Thanks Steve!  

I want to see if I understand...if not, feel free to school me!

The CSP3 allows you to squeeze the voltage down from the DAC (input control), similar to pumping the same volume of water through a smaller pipe, which would increase the velocity of the water, allowing for a more dynamic stream.  You can then increase the size of the pipe at the CSP3 output (w/30V of gain) in order to feed that into the amp.  Is that correct?

Stone, from what I gather from your settings you are keeping the size of the pipe large at both the input to the CSP3 (Input at 10/10, therefore taking all 8V from the DAC) and at the output (squeezing it down very slightly out to the amp, 8/10).  Is that correct?  You leave the volume constant on the ZMA and control it with the CSP3?  

Do your settings suggest that the ZMA likes a lot of gain?  Can you get to louder volumes without clipping by pushing more voltage to the ZMA?  

Also Stone, to clarify, the -0.5—1.0 decrease is on your Sony transport?  Or is that also a control on the ZDSD?
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Archie
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #9 - 10/17/15 at 18:32:46
 
I'm confused a bit by what is being called the CSP3 Input controls.  I have mine set on 10 like Stone and my Output on 8.  I sort of gravitated to the later more by chance.  However, I am under the impression (I read it in the CSP3 guide literature) that the "Input" calibrates the Master Volume knob -- mainly so when listening through headphones that we don't inadvertently blow out our ears!

If this is the case, why would we ever want input less than 10 so long as we have the Master volume control?  I don't know much about electrical systems.  Does volume control work through changing voltage or by putting resistance in the path?  Does the Master volume control work on a different principle than the Input and Output controls?  Do the Input and Output work similarly or not?  I think Steve alternately calls the Input controls as the Headphone controls.

Or am I just adding confusion?   Grin
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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Dave1210
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #10 - 10/17/15 at 22:29:21
 
Archie...thinking about this further, I think I am over complicating it.  Is this simply being able to adjust the gain between 1) source/pre-amp and 2) amp.  Decware is unique and has a volume control on the amp, which enables the latter, and Riding the Gain in general?

Are the extremes:

1) High Volume on Pre/Low Volume on Amp
2) Low Volume on Pre/High Volume on Amp

Would having a pre-amp give you more flexibility on Option 1, especially if your source had a 2V output and was connected direct?

Ha...I think we need video #2!
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Tripwr1964
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #11 - 10/18/15 at 14:29:07
 
i just love my CSP3!  couldn't imagine life without adjustable input and output gain!  i continue to try to explain this to my audio buddies... but they don't get it yet.  however, when they sit in my listening chair they do!  one other benefit i find with the left and right input/output gain is i can tweak the balance a bit for recording or room acoustics.

stone thks for the 6 string theory recommendation.  got it on the way!
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CSP3 25yr, CAD 120s MKII, Sunfire Signature600, Sota Star Sapphire, SME309, Hana SL, JC3+, Schiit bifrost multibit, CXC, MG1.6QR w/ ext xo & mye stands, OB Augies. herbies iso, VH audio flavor diy pwr cords, Beden 8402 & Dueland IC's,
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Lon
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #12 - 10/18/15 at 14:57:01
 
I actually find it hard to believe, but I now prefer my system without a CSP preamp. That wasn't the case until I had a DirectStream DAC in my system for some time and moved up the chain of VooDoo Cables to the Stradivarius line. I find that the balance and preamp capabilities of the DirectStream give me an ability to ride the gain between the Torii Mk III and the DAC, and without another set of cables and another set of tubes in the CSP3 I get an open and detailed yet sweet sound that I prefer to the "natural compression" (what I suspect most are calling "density") I found with the CSP2+s that I have (I have two with Jupiter caps, one without, the two with Jupiter caps have stepped attenuators). I really enjoyed "life" with the CSP2+ but things sounded more realistic to me when I've removed it from the chain. But I think that would not be the case with other interconnects. . . I think in my case, the snyergy in my system, the Stradivarius interconnects allow me to bypass the CSP2+ and get the sound that works best for me.

I guarantee you that this result surprised me and I switched CSP2+s in and out a few times over the last months just to verify. The CSP2+ in the system does give me higher gain for my lowest output source (DVR) but in my new room I don't seem to need this as much as I did in the previous room I had, and the one fellow watcher/listener that needed more volume I can please by changing the "Audio Range" in the DVR to "Narrow" from "Normal" when they are around. So I have 3 CSP2+s and a CSP2 just sitting around at the moment as I went from four systems (two at my place, one at my Dad's, one at my fiancee's) to just one system here at my fiancee's and possibly a headphone system here in the near future (though I think I will use a Torii Mk III to drive the phones rather than a CSP2+).

Surprised me that I didn't need the extra Decware tube stage that the CSP2+ preamps provided . . . but I just couldn't get it to match completely the transparency of the excellent preamp output of the DirectStream with the best cables I have, and I just didn't find the "density" to be what my system needed. I'm happiest without it.
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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Archie
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #13 - 10/18/15 at 18:02:29
 
Lon,  I don't have that luxury.  I play mostly vinyl and by my calculation I get only a little better than .5 volts out of my ZP3 which doesn't drive my ZMA loud enough in my room.  So, I need my CSP3 and stay blind to whether it gives me my absolute best sound.  This is along the lines of "ignorance is bliss!"
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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mark58
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #14 - 10/18/15 at 18:27:36
 
Lon, don't be putting ideas in my head! I am almost there with the CSP3 in the chain.  Can't imagine what I might get myself into if I took it out...you know I'm kidding Lon.  I'm almost there with the ZP3>CSP3>Torii MK IV...just need to sort out the interconnects then my plan is to just roll the CSP3 input tube and the three small tubes in the ZP3 for variety, leaving all else alone. I'm so close...

Lon, how do you drive headphones with a Torii?  Connect them somehow to the speaker terminals?  

Archie, are you using a MC Cart without step up?  Why so low? There are plenty of mm Carts that are wonderful. Mark.
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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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Lon
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #15 - 10/18/15 at 19:24:18
 
Mark, I bought a simple device that pads down the speaker cable output of the Torii and allows a headphone jack connection. I haven't tried it yet, but I think it will work admirably and I can imagine that driving the Oppo headphones with a Torii Mk III will be pretty awesome!

After a lot of experimenting I find the ZP3 straight into the Torii Mk III sounds best to me. . . but it sounds great with the CSP2+ as well. I just got tired of trying to find the perfect complement of tubes for the CSP2+. . . I weary of tube-rolling after a while.
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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Archie
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #16 - 10/19/15 at 01:26:18
 
Mark, my MM cart is 4 mV which I thought was fairly typical.  It's an Ortofon.  The formula I have puts that at about .5 V with the 42 db gain of the ZP3.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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will
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #17 - 10/19/15 at 02:51:45
 
I only use the CSP3 as an OTL tube stage between source and amp. I solved any transparency issues in my very revealing system with power cleaners, tubes, cables and feet.

I adjust the CSP3 pots for the best sound. I look at it as the front pots adjusting the front input tube, and the back pots adjusting the back/output tubes, the master volume then adjusting the whole with whatever balance I have created with the pots. Depending on the characters of the tubes I am using, the best balance can vary a bit.

With the original caps, I ran the outputs lower (I think it was 6), but with the Jupiter caps I have always liked them higher, giving more dynamics and tonal density that would have been too much with the original caps.

I typically like the front pots at 8-9 (-2 to -1) usually 9, and the back at 7 or 8 (-3 to -2). With the input pots on 10, I lose something with most tubes...have not identified exactly what, but 9 sounds more natural to me. Especially with powerful input tubes like the Telefunken E88CC I am using now, the CSP3 gets overstated and strident if the input is on 10. Likewise, if the outputs are too high, the mysterious OTL sound becomes too intense, again unnatural. On the output tubes there is the tube character of the pair I am using to balance, but also the OTL character the CSP3 design brings into the sound. The OTL output sound adds spacious lucidity, tonal density, dynamics...To a point, it is beautiful, but after, it can get a little overstated.

Once I balance the input and output tubes for the sound I like, then the master volume is the gain riding tool for balancing with the Torii MKIV master volume for the best tonal character for a specific recording.

My typical CSP3 range on its master is in the 1 - 2 o'clock range, give or take a little, this sounds best in this setup. Then if a recording is too dense/dark, I "ride" the CSP into the lower end of that range while "riding" the Torii up to keep the volume I want. At the same basic volume, with this method, I can adjust any recording to sound best. Put on a recording that is leaner, or so well recorded that more tonal density is helpful without making the sound too dark or mirky, I ride down the Torii while riding the CSP3 to the higher end of the range I like...say 2:00 or a bit more...or anywhere in between depending on the recording.

So, here, I get the most from the CSP3 by creating a balance that sounds right between the input, the output, and the master. Then by adjusting the master a little either way of this best-case neutral balance, I can get more or less tonal density to balance a recording to my system/room and tastes.
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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Syd
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #18 - 10/19/15 at 11:42:42
 
Archie has the same volume as me from the ZP3 Mark. My ZMC1 steps the voltage up from an MC cart to around 5.6V. I get adequate volume through the Rachaels and 89 db sp`s by having the pre in/outs on the CSP2+ on 9 and master at around 70%. Now, when I use a cd player or cassette deck I  have to back the master vol on the CSP2+ down by 50% !
I always check out the THD ( total harmonic distortion ) for gear. Valve gear is always a little higher. That would be for maxing out the volumes.
So, keeping this in mind I like to imagine I`m keeping those THD figures as low as I can with the volume I need.
Also, volume, by definition, means `space taken up` Not necessarilly `loudness`. So, again with my limited knowledge I equate volume with headroom. And there is the happy medium `loudness` with volume/headroom and good THD in your/my normal goto listening sessions.
It`s a big colourful/neutral 3d picture with the Decware chain !
Smiley

btw I thought I`d add that there is now almost zero hum. I`m miffed. I try to hear a slight hum but all I get is some static coming from the stat panels. Seasoning, that must be it.
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Decware: Rachaels x 2 bridged, C. SP2+, ZP3, ZMC1, DHC-1 pw/cbl`s Michell Orbe + SME V + M.Benz LP s, Arcam CD33, Nakamichi LX5, Lowther acoustas DX2`s, WE 16g sp/cbl`s, Isotek mains substation, M & K subwoofer, Belden 8402 interconnects.
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mark58
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #19 - 10/19/15 at 13:30:26
 
Syd, Archie, I think those calculations are a bit above my head.  I use a Rega Exact 2 MM Cartridge with an output of 6.8 to 7.2 mV.  Everything seems to work fine, even with the 5751 tubes at 70% the gain of 12AX7s in the ZP3. This with the Torii MK IV (24 WPC), CSP3 and HR-1 speakers with efficiency of 92.5 dB. Mark.

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-7436-rega-exact-2-mm-phono-cartridge.aspx
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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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Archie
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #20 - 10/19/15 at 17:13:54
 
Everytime Will chimes in I change my CSP3 settings!  :D

Mark and Syd, here is the site I used to calculate my cart voltage.  I didn't read the article it refers to (maybe I did a year or two ago?) but apparrently the goal isn't to reach a max voltage on the phono stage output.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/taking-the-guesswork-out-of-phonostage-...

Syd, you said 5.6 Volts but did you mean .56 Volts?
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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mark58
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #21 - 10/19/15 at 17:43:48
 
So Archie, since you have a calculator with a log function, could you calculate the dB required of my phonostage to amplify a cart with 7 mV output to 1V...as per the article. Mark
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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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Syd
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #22 - 10/19/15 at 18:27:30
 
Archie, the cart, M Benz lps puts out .34mV, not .28 as I`d thought.
The ZMC1 is the x20 step up version. So 20 x .34mV would be 6.8mV, and from what I`ve read is in line with what a phono wants to see. Why the big difference between vinyl and cd players volumes I dont know.

I`ve read so much stuff about calculating step up`s that I`ve come to the conclusion that what I need is for someone to take pity on me and just say "Syd, you need a ........." and that a 20x step up is only half the story.
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Decware: Rachaels x 2 bridged, C. SP2+, ZP3, ZMC1, DHC-1 pw/cbl`s Michell Orbe + SME V + M.Benz LP s, Arcam CD33, Nakamichi LX5, Lowther acoustas DX2`s, WE 16g sp/cbl`s, Isotek mains substation, M & K subwoofer, Belden 8402 interconnects.
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mark58
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Posts: 5647
Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #23 - 10/19/15 at 19:29:39
 
Mark,Syd, I did the calculation and came up with a 43.1 dB gain needed for my Cart from the phonostage...pretty close to the 42 dB Steve states for the ZP3.  I found a scientific calculator on my computer. Mark.

PS...so I guess if I wanted to, I could run the ZP3 directly via the Torii MK IV since additional gain isn't needed from the CSP3.  I'll leave the CSP3 in the chain anyway...I like it.
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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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Archie
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Posts: 2731
Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #24 - 10/20/15 at 17:13:27
 
Syd,

Do you dial down the ZMC1?  I looked at the ZP3 page and it seems to say that you get a 20 to 1 increase but that seems like a huge amount since the 42db of the ZP3 ony results in a 12.5:1 increase for me.  According to that link at your gain they say you should be getting distortion.  Have you tried your cart without the ZMC1 and just the ZP3?

I'm mostly just curious since this is kind of a mystery to me.  My first phono stage was a NAD that had a hi/lo witch for MM and MC carts.  It said it gave around 35db and 65 db respectively.  If I put it on the hi setting with my current cart it definitely got distorted.

I am also toying with a cart upgrade.  I've read good things about the Ortofon 2M Black.  I want to stick with MM so I don't need another gain stage.  Any thoughts?
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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Syd
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Posts: 1534
Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #25 - 10/20/15 at 17:48:12
 
Archie, the dial on the MC1 isn`t to adjust the turns ratio but either capacitance or resistance, more like capacitance I would think. tbh it doesn`t sound like it does anything until it gets near max when something starts distorting.

If anything I would think a bigger turns ratio than x20 would  deliver more voltage to the CSP2+ and then be comparable to other sources.

However, when delving into the complex world of step up compatability there is no definitive answer. The ZMC1 uses Sowter coils and their comparable model for .34mV ( they quote .28 and thats right because Benz use a different cps figure for their carts) is a 10:1  or 12:1...or 20:1 http://www.sowter.co.uk/phono-cartridge-transformers.php

I dont get any distortion as things stand and am extremely happy with the Benz cart. It`s capable of what you would expect for the calibre of the lps model.

It`s just one of those horrid inklings you get when you wonder if I jumped in too quick because of a x20 calculation and that maybe, just maybe I should have gone for the ZMC2...or 3 with lower ratio`s. Who knows, in the whacky world of SUT`s they might be louder.
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Decware: Rachaels x 2 bridged, C. SP2+, ZP3, ZMC1, DHC-1 pw/cbl`s Michell Orbe + SME V + M.Benz LP s, Arcam CD33, Nakamichi LX5, Lowther acoustas DX2`s, WE 16g sp/cbl`s, Isotek mains substation, M & K subwoofer, Belden 8402 interconnects.
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Archie
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Posts: 2731
Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #26 - 10/20/15 at 18:03:44
 
Syd, I figured your sound was great.  I'm just trying to understand a little of the "science" so I don't feel so bewildered.  Since Steve's amps need 2V for full power, I thought that puting 6 or 7 volts into the CSP3 seemed like alot.  But I don't understand all that very well either!  I also just noticed that I missread your cart voltage and was thinking it was on the order of mine when it's really an order of magnitude lower.  So, definitely you can't go straight into the ZP3 and then into the CSP3.  I guess that we have something that works is enough.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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Syd
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Posts: 1534
Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #27 - 10/20/15 at 21:04:51
 
I turned the pre/in down a notch during a session just now and turned the master volume down a little and it`s surprising how much power still comes out. I noticed the bass had more grunt.

I liked my Ortofon Archie, I remember it was really good at tone/timbre.
You not tempted by a  MC Archie ?

I cant help you with any science on MC SUT`s Archie. A lot of these audio people will have several SUT`s to swap around....


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Decware: Rachaels x 2 bridged, C. SP2+, ZP3, ZMC1, DHC-1 pw/cbl`s Michell Orbe + SME V + M.Benz LP s, Arcam CD33, Nakamichi LX5, Lowther acoustas DX2`s, WE 16g sp/cbl`s, Isotek mains substation, M & K subwoofer, Belden 8402 interconnects.
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mark58
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #28 - 10/20/15 at 21:36:02
 
OK Syd,  here goes another Dumb question.  What is gained sound-wise, from using a MC Cart.  Seems like more expense...SUT and more cabling...not to mention more chance of hum/noise compared to just the ZP3.  Mark.
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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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dla405j
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Posts: 59
Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #29 - 10/20/15 at 22:22:22
 
My view is that mc carts have more range & the highs have more sparkle....cymbals are clearer and music sounds better and more musical and natural with mc carts.  I have 3 tts and switched to two denon carts that use mc step ups and have no humm issues into my 2 decware pre's....The other tt runs into my decware zp3 into the mm input but since it's a high output mc cart no step up needed...it's a denon 110 mc cart and sounds far better than a same priced mm cart imho...also from what I read mc carts have more longevity than mm carts and seem better made...more rugged.  I noticed big improvement in all my vinyl sound since I changed to mc carts..I wanted to hear the difference and to my ears they are worth the sometimes more expense and the extra cable and sut....
Dave
dla405j
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #30 - 10/20/15 at 23:11:22
 
gain riding sidetrack city

Wink
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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Archie
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Posts: 2731
Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #31 - 10/21/15 at 00:27:05
 
Guilty as charged!   Tongue  

Syd, My reading comprehension needs a SUT!  I just saw where you are getting about 7 mV out of your SUT which I was reading as 7 V.  That makes a lot more sense now  Physics still holds!   Cheesy
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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stone_of_tone
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Posts: 3217
Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #32 - 10/21/15 at 05:06:19
 
You bet Tripwr (Reply #11)! Great Disc!  
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Room Treats-M.Green & mine
Sony TPort
Illuminati D60
Shunyata Z-Alpha DigPcord
Decware ZDSD DAC
Kimber Select KS1030
XLOProPcord
Decware ZMA/25th Mods
Kimber Select KS6063
Acoustic Zen Adagio/Modified
Kimber PK10 Palladian from wall
to PS Audio P3
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #33 - 10/21/15 at 14:59:59
 
Dave wrote:
"The CSP3 allows you to squeeze the voltage down from the DAC (input control), similar to pumping the same volume of water through a smaller pipe, which would increase the velocity of the water, allowing for a more dynamic stream.  You can then increase the size of the pipe at the CSP3 output (w/30V of gain) in order to feed that into the amp.  Is that correct?

Stone, from what I gather from your settings you are keeping the size of the pipe large at both the input to the CSP3 (Input at 10/10, therefore taking all 8V from the DAC) and at the output (squeezing it down very slightly out to the amp, 8/10).  Is that correct?  You leave the volume constant on the ZMA and control it with the CSP3?  

Do your settings suggest that the ZMA likes a lot of gain?  Can you get to louder volumes without clipping by pushing more voltage to the ZMA?  

Also Stone, to clarify, the -0.5—1.0 decrease is on your Sony transport?  Or is that also a control on the ZDSD"?




Hi Dave:

First paragraph = correct, mostly, it does not increase the velocity from the DAC/ZDSD...it turns the INPUT Volume down, coming from my Transport, with the -.5 or -1.0db. Then, it does the rest as you stated through my CSP3.

Second paragraph correct, except for: I do adjust the ZMA between 50 to 90%, in conjunction with adjusting the Volume SPL of the CSP3, between a very sensitive 20 to 40%.....on any given recording....to maximize it.

Third paragraph, that is correct Dave and the Beauty of my Gain Structure Adjustments! I can get VERY Loud without clipping....drive the CSP3 higher Vol SPL in to my ZMA and bring the ZMA Vol down to 50 or 60%...depends on the Recording I'm spinning. Once again, for maximum blow your mind fidelity.

Fourth paragraph, the -.5 and -1.0 I use, are on the ZDSD DAC INPUT Volume, tampering down the Input coming from the Transport.
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Room Treats-M.Green & mine
Sony TPort
Illuminati D60
Shunyata Z-Alpha DigPcord
Decware ZDSD DAC
Kimber Select KS1030
XLOProPcord
Decware ZMA/25th Mods
Kimber Select KS6063
Acoustic Zen Adagio/Modified
Kimber PK10 Palladian from wall
to PS Audio P3
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stone_of_tone
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Posts: 3217
Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #34 - 10/21/15 at 15:20:06
 
Dave, in reference to your Reply# 10. Exactly, don't over complicate it. IF ZMA is down.....CSP3 is up and conversely for the two.

What matters too: Steve's Output Transformer's are Voiced for his Gear on the ZDSD. The feature of the INPUT VOLUME control on the ZDSD.....just that -.5 or -1.0db, is very significant too and a indespensable tool.

Read and understand, from my Reply #1:
"Just that -.5 or -1.0 decrease takes care of the "hot" presentation to shear beauty"!

........and quite frankly: I made it clear in my Reply #3.


Plus, with the addition of my Kimber Select KS6063 Speaker Cables in conjunction with my 1030 IC's and now the Shunyata Alpha Digital Power Cord for my ZDSD......brought my (modified, see below~now at 92 or 93db/1watt/1meter) Adagio's to a whole other League. My Ediswan Tubes are significant too.  Also, my Master and Commander Input Tube in my CSP3.    YMMV.





Cambridge CXC Transport Servo coming today....out for delivery!

Listening Room:
Room Treatments from Michael Green & Home Brew

Sony as Transport (DVP-NS57P)/Sandwich weighted for Isolation
Illuminati D-60 Digital Coax IC

Shunyata ZiTron Alpha Digital Power Cord
Decware ZDSD DAC / Recorder (@ -20 Ref Level, 0.0 Input volume and @ 16/192)
{also @ kept/-20 Ref Level & -.5db or -1.0 Input volume Level}

WBT-0102Ag RCA Kimber Select KS1030
Decware CSP3 w/Jupiter Caps (NOS/Platinum/Telefunken 6922/E88CC .....for Input Tube)
**********************************************
10 of 10 for Input tube & 8 of 10 voltage for Output tubes
Volume adjustment used at 0 to 50%
**********************************************
WBT-0102Ag RCA Kimber Select KS1030

Decware Zen Mystery Amplifier
***NOS/Platinum/Ediswan's CV2492/6922 in my A12 an B12 positions***
ZMA adjusted at 50% to 90% of Volume

***************************************************
Kimber Select KS6063 Speaker Cable 8ft WBT-0681-Ag Spades
***************************************************
Acoustic Zen Adagio - Black Pearl (Modified)


Acoustic Zen Adagio's x-over's Modified/Full Range with Mundorf MCap Supremes-single Cap to each Tweeter/4.5k cross
(Gutted: 3kHz/18dB/Octave, Linkwitz/Riley Crossovers....with all crappy parts = gone)

XLO Pro Power Cords to CSP3 an ZMA
PS Audio P3 Power Plant / Pangea AC-9SE from wall to P3
(Transport, ZDSD an CSP3, Regenerated/120 ~ Multiwave off...ZMA on High Current Output)
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Room Treats-M.Green & mine
Sony TPort
Illuminati D60
Shunyata Z-Alpha DigPcord
Decware ZDSD DAC
Kimber Select KS1030
XLOProPcord
Decware ZMA/25th Mods
Kimber Select KS6063
Acoustic Zen Adagio/Modified
Kimber PK10 Palladian from wall
to PS Audio P3
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stone_of_tone
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Posts: 3217
Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #35 - 10/21/15 at 16:13:17
 
Dave wrote:
"Do your settings suggest that the ZMA likes a lot of gain"?

Knock ~ knock ~ who's there? GAIN

I'm not suggesting the ZMA likes GAIN. It's a fact. Steve designed his Output Stage Trannies to work in conjunction with the -20 Output Volume of the ZDSD, to drive the ZMA Direct (sans CSP3 ). I prefer the better performance of the Gain Structures with the CSP3. The Transparency & Ferocity are there....in my System. ....and of course, the Stone of Tone....and all that entails.
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Room Treats-M.Green & mine
Sony TPort
Illuminati D60
Shunyata Z-Alpha DigPcord
Decware ZDSD DAC
Kimber Select KS1030
XLOProPcord
Decware ZMA/25th Mods
Kimber Select KS6063
Acoustic Zen Adagio/Modified
Kimber PK10 Palladian from wall
to PS Audio P3
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Dave1210
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Posts: 959
Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #36 - 10/22/15 at 01:50:24
 
Thanks Stone.  I  now have a clear understanding of what is going on in your setup.

Also, thanks Will.  Your post (#17) was very thoughtful and helpful!
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #37 - 10/22/15 at 15:10:43
 
You bet Dave. Yes, Will's Reply #17, mirrors my experience in a lot of ways. So, nice to have a backing 2nd Opinion. Different settings: Will has the IV and I have the ZMA.
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Room Treats-M.Green & mine
Sony TPort
Illuminati D60
Shunyata Z-Alpha DigPcord
Decware ZDSD DAC
Kimber Select KS1030
XLOProPcord
Decware ZMA/25th Mods
Kimber Select KS6063
Acoustic Zen Adagio/Modified
Kimber PK10 Palladian from wall
to PS Audio P3
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stone_of_tone
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Posts: 3217
Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #38 - 10/22/15 at 15:12:38
 
Plus Tripwr wrote, in Reply #11:
" i continue to try to explain this to my audio buddies... but they don't get it yet.  however, when they sit in my listening chair they do"!

.......my experience too, Trip!

'nough said.
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Room Treats-M.Green & mine
Sony TPort
Illuminati D60
Shunyata Z-Alpha DigPcord
Decware ZDSD DAC
Kimber Select KS1030
XLOProPcord
Decware ZMA/25th Mods
Kimber Select KS6063
Acoustic Zen Adagio/Modified
Kimber PK10 Palladian from wall
to PS Audio P3
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Lon
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Posts: 23310
Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #39 - 10/26/15 at 16:27:58
 
Well Friday I put my favorite CSP2+ back in the chain between the DirectStream (one input) and the Denon universal player (the other input) and the Torii Mk III.

Played around all I could this weekend with input and output settings, the preamp in the DirectStream, and the input gain on the Torii. Enlisted Lucinda's ears and opinions as well. Got it sounding really nice. This morning I took the CSP2+ out of the chain for the DirectStream, running the DirectStream straight into the Torii. . . and I have to say I prefer this set up. The preamp in the DirectStream is very very good, and it has a balance function. . .and to me everything sounds best with the Torii at 9/10s full volume and using the DirectStream to alter volume between sources. So I'm sticking to it. This is the most transparent sounding to me without sounding thick with natural compression, and sounds most realistic to me with the reference materials I use (mostly recordings I made myself and recordings I've listened to twenty to forty years).

So I'm sticking with this combination and just enjoying the music!

I'll use the CS2+ for the ZP3 (sounds great either with the CSP2+ or directly into the Torii) and the Denon (for SACD playback --scrumptious-- or some video content). For most of my listening the bit of gain riding I do between DirectStream and the Torii, and the clear and open sound, just those two together are a joy.
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #40 - 12/11/15 at 22:47:11
 
To further the gain riding I posted in reply 1, 2 & 3........I have my ZMA at 25% to 30% of usable volume (no longer 50 to 70%). Allows me to use my CSP3 at 25 to 35% of its usable volume. Due to break in of my Speaker cables/ability to let it all through and Digital pcord. CSP3 at 10 of 10 voltage for input tube and 9 of 10 for output tubes.

Also: NOS Tubes! The Ediswan's in my Inputs of my ZMA are top to bottom and in between stellar! .....ain't cheap....but I ain't driving this Bugatti with bald tires! NOS tubes matter!

The density, detail, imaging of those details with layered bass when there.....I could never go back to NOT having a Preamp/CSP3!

The grip and control and grace this System has on my Adagio's/I'm done...... .  Music buying only!






Listening Room:



Room Treatments from Michael Green & Home Brew

Sony as Transport (DVP-NS57P)/Sandwich weighted for Isolation

Illuminati D-60 Digital Coax IC

****Shunyata Research ZiTron Alpha Digital Power Cord****
{you need to experience the next level it can take your DAC}

Decware ZDSD DAC / Recorder
***************************************************************
W/Steve's Output Transformer's/kicking to the curb quite a few superb DAC'S!
***************************************************************
(@ -20 Ref Level, 0.0 Input volume and @ 16/192)
{also @ kept/-20 Ref Level & -.5db or -1.0 Input volume Level}


WBT-0102Ag RCA Kimber Select KS1030

Decware CSP3 w/Jupiter Caps
(NOS/Platinum/Telefunken 6922/E88CC for Input Tube~Russian 6N1P-EV's for Output Tubes & 5U4G-C Rectifier)
****************************************************
10 of 10 for Input tube & 9 of 10 voltage for Output tubes
Volume adjustment usage at 25% to 35% of usable volume
****************************************************

WBT-0102Ag RCA Kimber Select KS1030

Decware Zen Mystery Amplifier
(NOS/Platinum/Ediswan's CV2492/6922 in my A12 an B12 positions~6N23P-EV's for Inverter Tubes~JAN Sylvania 0A3's & Tung-Sol KT66's)
ZMA adjusted at 25% to 30% of usable volume

***************************************************
Kimber Select KS6063 Speaker Cable 8ft WBT-0681-Ag Spades
***************************************************

Acoustic Zen Adagio - Black Pearl (Modified)




Acoustic Zen Adagio's x-over's Modified/Full Range with Mundorf MCap Supremes-single Cap to each Tweeter/4.5k cross
(Gutted: 3kHz/18dB/Octave, Linkwitz/Riley Crossovers....with all crappy parts = gone)

XLO Pro Power Cords to CSP3 an ZMA
PS Audio P3 Power Plant / Pangea AC-9SE from wall to P3
(Transport, ZDSD an CSP3, Regenerated/120 ~ Multiwave off...ZMA on High Current Output)

PS=the: NOS/Platinum/Ediswan's CV2492/6922 /Inputs = ZMA are breathtaking.............. .

NOS/Platinum/Telefunken 6922/E88CC for Input Tube/CSP3 ~ not taken for granted neither......... .
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Room Treats-M.Green & mine
Sony TPort
Illuminati D60
Shunyata Z-Alpha DigPcord
Decware ZDSD DAC
Kimber Select KS1030
XLOProPcord
Decware ZMA/25th Mods
Kimber Select KS6063
Acoustic Zen Adagio/Modified
Kimber PK10 Palladian from wall
to PS Audio P3
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JD
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Posts: 533
Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #41 - 12/11/15 at 22:54:47
 
Stone,

I agree although I have a CSP2+.  The ability to fine tune the sound often leaves me in awe.

JD
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stone_of_tone
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Re: Riding the Gain - Video 1
Reply #42 - 12/11/15 at 22:59:53
 
So, so true JD. I don't know how people can sit and listen with involvement, to fixed Solid State Rigs? They can't customize to their Speakers!
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Room Treats-M.Green & mine
Sony TPort
Illuminati D60
Shunyata Z-Alpha DigPcord
Decware ZDSD DAC
Kimber Select KS1030
XLOProPcord
Decware ZMA/25th Mods
Kimber Select KS6063
Acoustic Zen Adagio/Modified
Kimber PK10 Palladian from wall
to PS Audio P3
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