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SE84CKCS Owners (Read 20754 times)
SE84CKCS
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SE84CKCS Owners
03/02/15 at 02:38:58
 
Poking around on the site, I am not seeing much (any) discussion... I guess owners are really happy with their purchase? I am totally digging mine.

I am interested in connecting with other owners. What upgrades did you get with your amp, and are you tube rolling?

Peace,

Mike
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ProggRob
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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #1 - 03/05/15 at 21:10:28
 
Hello SE84,

I am a long time lurker here, but I saw your post and decided to finally create a profile!  I purchased an SE84CKCS in April of 2014 and had it outfitted with the upgraded attenuator, balanced inputs and Jupiter caps.  A Schiit Gungnir DAC runs into its balanced inputs.  I absolutely love it.  I had a few amps in house and to my taste, the SE84CKCS is better than all of them according to my sonic priorities (tone, fidelity, realism, clarity).  Of course, the sense of space and dimension is excellent as well.  Here's a list of amps I owned before I settled on this one, in reverse chronological order:

- Coincident SE34 Dynamo
- Atma-Sphere M60s
- Red Wine Audio Signature 15
- Rega Brio-R

It drives a pair of Hawthorne SSI Trios with authority.  Never wanted for any more volume except maybe once when I had company over and we were jammin' Mastadon at concert levels.  Anyhow, glad to hear you like yours!

Rob
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Baetis Revolution II -> HFC CT-1E Digital Cable -> Denefrips Terminator -> Black Cat Setsuna XLR -> LTA Ultralinear Integrated -> Black Cat Setsuna SC -> Betsy Alnicos
Bass: 4x Hawthorne Augies w/ 2 Rythmik amps
Power: TWL 7+ and Digital, UberBUSS, Furutech Outl
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ProggRob
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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #2 - 03/05/15 at 21:17:38
 
Also, I have tube rolled with the input tube.  Had a really $$$ Miniwatt Dario 6922 on hand that I bought when I had the Red Wine Audio amp, put it in in place of the stock and I didn't like the signature it left.  While it has some obviously great qualities it just made the music to "thick".  Midrange was far too dense.  My system is built around tone and midrange already so it just didn't work out.

Also, I am receiving a Valve Art 274B in the mail today from Cryoset to swap out with the stock tube.  Look forward to hearing the cryo difference, if any.

Rob
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Baetis Revolution II -> HFC CT-1E Digital Cable -> Denefrips Terminator -> Black Cat Setsuna XLR -> LTA Ultralinear Integrated -> Black Cat Setsuna SC -> Betsy Alnicos
Bass: 4x Hawthorne Augies w/ 2 Rythmik amps
Power: TWL 7+ and Digital, UberBUSS, Furutech Outl
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SE84CKCS
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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #3 - 03/06/15 at 00:44:44
 
Hiya Rob. Thanks for coming out of the shadows! I went all-in with mine: balanced inputs, stepped attenuator, and v-caps. I am running an Oppo BDP-93 to the balanced inputs (putting some custom cables I've laying around to use).

For the input tube, I replaced the stock 6N1P-EV with a NOS Amperex 6922, and made things worse. The 6922 had more grunt and LF presence, and was otherwise very ho-hum.

I swapped the 6922 for something I've used before elsewhere, a NOS GE 6DJ8: Fantastic detail and soundstage. There is a touch less LF present, but nowhere near being a deal-breaker. From swapping email w/ Steve, he made me aware of the 7DJ8. So, something else to look into.

Please let us know how things go with the cryo tube. I've been looking at doing the same thing, along with looking for some NOS 5U4.

Peace,

Mike
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ProggRob
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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #4 - 03/06/15 at 01:39:30
 
Hey Mike,

I'll look into that NOS GE, thanks for the tip!  Installed the cryo'd 274B a couple hours ago, letting it run a bit and then I'll do some A/B/A to confirm changes.  If you come across good 7DJ8 to try please let me know.  I'm so happy with the 6N1P-EV though I think any new tube has to be stellar in order to dethrone it.  Steve did a great job selecting tubes for this amp.

I've got some other 6922/6DJ8 to play with as well: Matsushita-National and Russian Type 3 from Upscale Audio.  I believe both of those were cryo'd.  I'll swap these out after my rectifier project is over.

Rob

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Baetis Revolution II -> HFC CT-1E Digital Cable -> Denefrips Terminator -> Black Cat Setsuna XLR -> LTA Ultralinear Integrated -> Black Cat Setsuna SC -> Betsy Alnicos
Bass: 4x Hawthorne Augies w/ 2 Rythmik amps
Power: TWL 7+ and Digital, UberBUSS, Furutech Outl
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SE84CKCS
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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #5 - 03/06/15 at 04:24:20
 
Rob,

Specifics on the GE tube...

Date Code is 62 43 (43rd week of 1962),

Manufacturing code / EIA number is 188-5 (GE - Owensboro KY plant).

Will let you know about any 7DJ8 I move on.

Mike
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ProggRob
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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #6 - 03/13/15 at 23:32:15
 
Hey Mike, I'll be swapping out the cryo'd rectifier and doing comparis with the regular this weekend.  More to come.
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Baetis Revolution II -> HFC CT-1E Digital Cable -> Denefrips Terminator -> Black Cat Setsuna XLR -> LTA Ultralinear Integrated -> Black Cat Setsuna SC -> Betsy Alnicos
Bass: 4x Hawthorne Augies w/ 2 Rythmik amps
Power: TWL 7+ and Digital, UberBUSS, Furutech Outl
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SE84CKCS
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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #7 - 03/22/15 at 07:03:40
 
Hiya Rob,

I've gone deeper into my record collection, moving away from jazz and blues, into rock.

The loss of LF response in the 6DJ8 has become unacceptable. I am throwing difficult material it: Early CD pressings of Tull, Hawkwind and Motorhead. However, The Wilson remasters of various Tull, on DVD-A had better be near-perfect. The 6DJ8 simply takes too much LF off the table. Of course, YMMV.

If you are interested in hearing it, I don't have a problem sending one to you. We can PM re: mailing address.

I tried out an early-50s GE 5U4G over the last couple of days. No Joy. It had the same effect as when I put in the 6922: More bottom at the expense of detail, soundstage, and clarity.
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Lord Soth
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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #8 - 03/22/15 at 12:16:43
 
Hi Rob,

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Before I got my present Torii MK4, the amps from Coincident (Israel Blume) and Red Wine ( Vinnie Rossi) were on my short list.

With the new upcoming UFO transformers, I might get one of these mini amps just for the fun of it.

Hi Mike,

If you are interested in the 7DJ8 / PCC88 tubes, I highly recommend hunting down the pinched waist PCC88s made in holland with the ^ factory etch mark.
The market price is USD150 a piece.

They have wonderful mids without any sonic compromise.
These are comparable with the Pinched Waist Amperex Tubes highly recommended in Joe's tube lore.
I am currently using a pair in my Torii Mk4 amp.

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SE84CKCS
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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #9 - 03/22/15 at 16:55:01
 
Hi Lord Soth,

Many Thanks for the pointer/recommend on the 7DJ8. I have become a little leery on the 7DJ8 for now. From what I have read (so far), it would appear that the sonic improvement(s) come at the expense of LF response, just like the 6DJ8. Since I am running at 1/10th the power of what you are, LF response is not something where I have any give.
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SE84CKCS
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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #10 - 05/29/15 at 21:15:10
 
I have stopped tube rolling for now. It turns out the HT Truth-Link cables (unbalanced > balanced) are part of a problem causing a loss of LF response. I'll be purchasing an Oppo BDP-105D later this year, allowing me to go balanced > balanced, and also solve a couple of other problems.
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ProggRob
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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #11 - 06/04/15 at 22:25:00
 
Hey Mike,

I'm still rolling!  I've settled on a 6922/6H23N Russian Type 3 on the input, and have now moved on to the rectifier position.  Tried an RCA 5U4G but it's too romantic for my tastes.  Even messed around with a solid state rectifier which has pretty good dynamics!  Hoping to get my hands on a Brimar 5R4GY to try out Wink

Rob
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Baetis Revolution II -> HFC CT-1E Digital Cable -> Denefrips Terminator -> Black Cat Setsuna XLR -> LTA Ultralinear Integrated -> Black Cat Setsuna SC -> Betsy Alnicos
Bass: 4x Hawthorne Augies w/ 2 Rythmik amps
Power: TWL 7+ and Digital, UberBUSS, Furutech Outl
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SE84CKCS
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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #12 - 06/04/15 at 22:57:26
 
"too romantic"... You got me rolling on the floor with that one Grin
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SE84CKCS
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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #13 - 12/31/15 at 06:12:29
 
Finally got my audio problems sorted: Took delivery of an Oppo BDP-105D today. Using the balanced outs w/ some old Monster silver AES/EBU cables...

It is all there: The missing bass response, more detail, sound stage, and depth. Volume is a lot more stable, and I can go further than previously before the meters start dancing (Now 2 o'clock position). It gets stupid, leave the room loud when using all 2.3 Watts.

I might mess with the interconnects. The improvements are so significant, I have to let things settle a bit while I get reacquainted with my (yet again) new music collection. Currently, my only tube rolling interest is with the input tube.

Good Grief, Steve sure knows how to make a great sounding amp.
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DBC
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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #14 - 01/07/16 at 20:17:57
 
SE84CKCS,

I have a Super Zen with recent UFO upgrade connected to the Oppo 105D but do not have balanced inputs to take advantage of the Oppo's balanced outputs.

Sounds like the Oppo 105D was a big sonic upgrade over your Oppo 93? Were you running balanced into your UFO with both? I had an Oppo 85se and the 105D was a good sonic upgrade over that using conventional interconnects.

I know the stand alone ZBIT (Balanced to Unbalanced Transformer) allows the user to adjust output voltage between 0-10 volts. Is there the same ability on the SE84UFO2 when ordered with Balanced Inputs? Or is your only option to reduce the Digital Volume at the Oppo if you want less than 10 volts into your amp?

Thanks.
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Main System: Oppo BDP-105D, SE84UFO amp, Omega Super Alnico Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 15's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
Room #2: Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CS amp, Omega Super 3i Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 12's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
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SE84CKCS
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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #15 - 01/08/16 at 22:29:42
 
Hiya DBC,

Yes, the 105D is a huge sonic upgrade over the 93. I attribute it to a few things: Continued evolution of Oppo's players; moving to the balanced outputs on the separate, dedicated stereo signal path; the 105D weighs about twice as much as the 93...

I was running the 93 with a pair of custom made TruthLink unbalanced > balanced cables to the amp. There was some sort of the impedance mis-match going on (or something). Things sounded better when using the unbalanced outs on the 93 than with my mutant cables mentioned above. The 105D balanced definitely beats the 93 unbalanced.

Not that the 93 sounded necessarily bad. Rather, I could tell I was still missing some stuff. The 105D gets me about 99 & 44/100 percent of the way "there." The next sonic improvement would be architectural: The previous owner of my house vaulted the living room ceiling to 16 feet, from the original 11 feet. Dumb, dumb, dumb...

My amp is about a year old, and predates the UFO mod as an option. You are correct, there is no way on my amp to tweak the input side. I have to use the digital volume control. I'm finding on occasion, moving down from 100 a couple notches on the Oppo makes certain tracks sound not just better, but "right."

Peace,

Mike
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DBC
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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #16 - 01/08/16 at 23:15:13
 
Mike,

Appreciate your input.

In my case the UFO mod was worth every penny paired with my Omega Alnico Monitors. I really like the stepped volume control I had installed at the same time.
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Main System: Oppo BDP-105D, SE84UFO amp, Omega Super Alnico Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 15's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
Room #2: Oppo BDP-83SE, SE84CS amp, Omega Super 3i Monitors, Twin Custom SLAB 12's (Low Frequency Open Baffle).
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SE84CKCS
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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #17 - 01/21/16 at 21:57:14
 
With this newest bit of audio kit (Oppo BDP-105D), it certainly stays interesting. Some of this is a bit of a rewind...

Started with a pair of Monster Cable Prolink Studio Pro 1000 Silver Digital AES/EBU, and went from the stock input tube (Russian Military surplus 6N1P-EV) to the GE 6DJ8. The loss of LF response from the 6DJ8 was more noticeable than previously, and issues of sibilance became more pronounce (Most notably on the 24/96 DAD of the Ellington/Armstrong records). So, my first observation about the Oppo: The BDP-105D makes shortcomings more apparent.

This isn't the first time I've had a problem with a move to silver (coated or solid) wire for interconnects or speaker cable. Yes: By changing wire and tube at the same time, I changed two variables. So, I swapped out the Monster Cable for Cardas Audio Quadlink Five Series. The move to copper wire took a lot of the edge off, but there were still issues of sibilance on some recordings. The LF response improved some, but nowhere near enough.

I then moved back to the stock input tube. Still better LF response (but still lacking), and solved more issues of sibilance (but not all). There was only one move left immediately available to me, and I was very curious to hear how it was going to play. Previously, I had swapped in an Amperex 6922 for the input tube in other setups, and it was very disappointing. While I did get more LF response, it was soft and muddy, with a lot of bloom.

Not this time. This time, I got all the LF response back. Overall presence is better than ever before, all the bottom that came back sounds like it should. The one odd thing with this change is in regard to soundstage. The width is now physically matched with the speakers, as placed, but now I have a couple more feet in depth than previously. I'm also noticing better definition on studio chatter, and more of it, that I had not heard previously.
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SE84CKCS
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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #18 - 02/12/16 at 19:44:33
 
I see on Decware's tube list, they sell 6922s. Anybody know manufacturer, vintage, etc?
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Steve Deckert
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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #19 - 02/16/16 at 02:11:05
 
We sell the Russian 6N23P (6H23N-EB), the Russian equivalent of a 7DJ8.  I hand select and test them for our ZMA, TORII MKIV and TORII JR.  I find it sounds better than current production 6922's.  JJ's and EH 6922's I've had hit and miss results with so I don't sell them. Of course the 6N23P works in any Decware amp that uses 6N1P's.

Steve
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SE84CKCS
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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #20 - 02/18/16 at 20:41:36
 
Thanks for the explanation Steve.

Mike
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busterfree
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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #21 - 03/04/16 at 01:47:24
 
I am really enjoying my SE84CKCS daily. It has the UFO upgrade. I think it is amazing what this amp can do with efficient speakers. I seem to prefer it with no preamp in the path right now.

Steve,
Have you thought about an EL84/6P15P tube amp with ZMA type power supplies? Or applying any new insights from Torii Jr? What about a 6SN7 or 6SL7 input tube? Or limited runs of a special edition? Just curious about where this amp can go next. Until then, I will keep enjoying what I have. Happy listening.
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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #22 - 03/08/16 at 08:46:13
 
Busterfree, I couldn't agree more with what you said about the SE84CKCS/UFO2.  I've always thoroughly enjoyed this amp but my respect for it went up to another level all together after I auditioned this amp at my friend's house.  

To remind everyone, my amp is essentially the SE84UFO2 but with upgraded Jupiter Copper as coupling caps.

My friend's speakers are pretty efficient at 95db ( 8 ohms) but with a major crossover to blend in the 4 drivers ( 1 tweeter, 1 midwoofer, and 2 bass woofers in the back).
The reason he asked me to bring the little Zen over? He had heard it in my room with various components and speakers and was pretty impressed and wanted to see if it could drive his speakers. He is currently using a true balanced push-pull 60 watt tube amp based on the KT88 tube. He really likes this amp but its on the warmer side and he prefers a more neutral presentation. Another issue he had with his amp is the unrefined bass control of his speakers. Now this could easily be break-in issues as he had upgraded all of his coupling and input caps on his amp to Jupiter and Dueland.

When we took out his amp and inserted the little Zen into the chain, we were both in shock. What we were hearing was the essence of a great SET: the gorgeous midrange and the immediacy of the music. What we didn't expect was the superior bass control compared to his push-pull amp. The bass was tighter, faster n more coherent with the rest of the music. I was left speechless. How could a little 2 watt amp produce better bass and have better control than a monster 60 watt push-pull? Especially on a speaker with 4 drivers and a major crossover.

My first thoughts were that the UFO transformers are a major upgrade. This combined with the Jupiter Copper coupling caps were the major reasons for the superior bass control. But then I remember reading that most amp's bass characteristics are greatly correlated to its power supplies. If this is true then the power supplies on the SE84UFO2 is very underrated indeed. The other thing I remember coming across reading is that the power supplies on a push-pull amp is a lot more important to the sound than the power supplies on a SET amp. Maybe someone can correct me here but one thing's for certain: after this audition, my respect and love for this little amp is at a point where I'll probably never sell it. It's simply that good!
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busterfree
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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #23 - 03/09/16 at 00:56:38
 
Good to know that the Jupiter Copper caps fit in the SE84UFO2.

Great story.

My speakers are a three way with crossover and 24 years old.
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fidelity71
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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #24 - 03/09/16 at 23:18:44
 
Hi My apologies this has come up earlier, I have not read about it here so I'm going to ask.
I have just received the se84 kit 1 pcb,(not ready for point to point) very much looking forward to building this amp! When complete I'll rebuild a point to point, I hope???
Question is (Steve) why was the rectifingr tube left out of PCB?
Second question are there plans to release a diy version of the phono stage? Or a DAC?
Sorry one more..... I've also read that Decware has teamed up with edcore to produce a special opt for the se84 are they available and what are cost?
Whew... I think that will do it....for now he he he Smiley
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Steve Deckert
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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #25 - 03/10/16 at 03:46:10
 
Quote:
Steve,
Have you thought about an EL84/6P15P tube amp with ZMA type power supplies? Or applying any new insights from Torii Jr? What about a 6SN7 or 6SL7 input tube? Or limited runs of a special edition? Just curious about where this amp can go next. Until then, I will keep enjoying what I have. Happy listening.


Easily I could hop up a zen amplifier with more power... but the price would be the amps ability to drive nearly a dead short... which is what is at the heart of it's bass performance. Not to mention the clipping would change from wonderfully forgiving to ugly and the midrange would get harder. You can apply the ZMA power supply approach, albeit properly tuned for the 2 watt amp, with good results, but then you loose the ability to voice the signature with different rectifier tubes not to mention that the rectifier tube protects your amp from basically anything serious enough to hurt it, like nearby lightening strikes, etc. That means that your amp will likely never fail since you can replace the rectifier tubes as needed yourself.  

If you compare the ZKIT1 circuit board version which uses two UN4007 fast recovery diodes in place of the rectifier tube, the sound is still good but different. The highs are more sparkly, and the amp has more power due to less voltage drop, and no issues with the bass. Probably more consistent since you can't change it like you can with rectifier tubes. Still, the midrange potential in a good rectifier tube is priceless. I can remember many occasions when auditioning headphones for example, where the choice of rectifier tube was profound enough to be the make it or break it factor that determined if I liked a particular set of phones or not. Put better, it determined how good I perceived a particular set of phones, changing some phones from a 4 to 8.5... you get the idea.

With the UFO transformers which have scary flat and ridiculously wide frequency response, there is little else that could be done to improve the sound. Replacing the 6.8K 2 watt resistor feeding the input stage with a vacuum diode such as the VR75 would probably improve things a bit, as it did with the Zen Triode Mono's that we sold for a period of time. So we'll see, maybe I'll revisit this on the SE84UFO2 someday and see if it's worth the effort. As I'm sure many can relate to... when things sound this good, the motivation or drive to make it better is barely there. If someone came in here with a competitors 2 watt amp that spanked our Zen Triode for a similar price... that would certainly create the drive, but it just hasn't happened... and it's been 20 years and counting.  

Hell, it took 20 years to push myself into the UFO territory (which is competitive with the most expensive boutique
transformers ) because I thought we were at that point of diminishing returns already. Clearly I was wrong, and when being wrong sounds this good, you have to wonder what happens when you're right?

Despite what the world loves to say about the octal input tubes, there is an advantage to the 9 pin dual triode. The advantage is having a relatively exactly matched signature on each channel when the circuit uses each triode section for the left & right channels as is the case with the Zen Triode SE84UFO and UFO2. A single tube does both channels so it is impossible to ruin the precision of the Zen's imaging with miss matched tubes. Instead the certainly of a single tube doing both channels make tube rolling a very productive and cost effective experience. The output stage can not be improved upon with different tubes... just make sure they match. There is nothing better than the military top grade 6P15P-EB with plated pins and gold grids. I would rather have one of those than a WE300B in the wood box for the same price as a Zen amp... and that's the beauty of this hobby, getting more from less.

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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #26 - 03/10/16 at 03:50:48
 
Quote:
When we took out his amp and inserted the little Zen into the chain, we were both in shock. What we were hearing was the essence of a great SET: the gorgeous midrange and the immediacy of the music. What we didn't expect was the superior bass control compared to his push-pull amp. The bass was tighter, faster n more coherent with the rest of the music. I was left speechless. How could a little 2 watt amp produce better bass and have better control than a monster 60 watt push-pull? Especially on a speaker with 4 drivers and a major crossover.


This might be my favorite quote of all time regarding the Zen Triode Amplifier.  

I'd probably pay good money for a video of that Smiley

God Bless you and happy listening!

Steve
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busterfree
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Re: SE84CKCS Owners
Reply #27 - 03/11/16 at 02:40:42
 
Great insight and commentary Steve - it helps me appreciate the current design even more.
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