Forums - Decware + Magnepan

Dave1210

Seasoned Member

Posts: 959

Decware + Magnepan
02/22/15 at 21:13:36

Anyone out there driving Magnepan speakers with their Decware amplifier? If so, what's your experience?

Steve got me thinking about Magnepans after his white paper on the Torii mk5 (see Triode/Pentode section)

https://www.decware.com/newsite/MK5GUIDE.pdf

Maggies are pretty close to a purely resistive load (4 ohms throughout the entire frequency range) vs. dynamic speakers, which tend to vary (sometimes greatly) in impedance as frequency changes.

In theory, wouldn't a purely resistive load work great with tube amps? I realize these speakers are pretty low in efficiency, but as long as you don't listen too loud, the pairing could be a good one.

Looking forward to your thoughts!

Back to top

IP Logged

beowulf Seasoned Member Posts: 1447	Re: Decware + Magnepan Reply #1 - 02/22/15 at 21:54:07 While I've never heard them myself, most of the stuff I've read about them say they are tough to drive and require many watts ... like 200-300 seems to be a good starting point from what I've read. I realize SS watts aren't the same as Tube watts though ...
Back to top	IP Logged

Dave1210

Seasoned Member

Posts: 959

Re: Decware + Magnepan
Reply #2 - 02/22/15 at 22:39:08

I have heard Magnepans on a number of different occasions. They are great speakers...no boxy sound, coherent, detailed...project a great soundstage, especially depth. They always seem be powered by SS amps, and just like any speaker, the amplification makes a big difference. I have heard SS that sounds good and SS that sucks with these speakers. Quality, not quantity?

So they need a great amp and Steve makes great amps. Therefore I am curious. Decware with Magnepans?

BTW...I recently had the KEF LS50's in my listening room and the ZMA can drive them to listenable volumes (84 dB efficiency).

Back to top

IP Logged

Lon Seasoned Member "Love without guts is worthless!" Philip K. Dick Posts: 23496	Re: Decware + Magnepan Reply #3 - 02/22/15 at 23:04:21 If I remember correctly in the past there was a Torii owner who just couldn't be happy with that amp and Maggies. I bet the Torii MONOs or maybe the ZMA would do the trick.
Back to top	HR-1,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod; Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD, DAC Mk II, P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls, Reference spkrcbls; Mapleshade SamsonV3; VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones: Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1 IP Logged

mark58

Seasoned Member

Posts: 5647

Re: Decware + Magnepan
Reply #4 - 02/22/15 at 23:20:28

I once had a pair of the 3. something, 6 foot monsters until they were stolen 6 months later. I was running them with a 200 WPC SS Amp. I never got them dialed in though. After this question was posted I did a google search and if you can be happy with very low listening levels, 25 WPC would just work. They have a Sensitivity of 86dB/500Hz /2.83v, Impedance 4 Ohm. Below I've copied what is said on the company site. I agree with Lon...ZMA or Torii Monos would work. Mark.

How much power do I need? [top]
We are asked this question every single day. We wish that we could be of more help, but individual tastes vary. If someone tells you that you need an amplifier with ___ watts, how can they be so sure if they are not listening with you in your room?
You can get a lot of free advice in the chat rooms on the internet. Most of it is of very little value (or misleading). Often, their power recommendations are influenced by their listening habits and room conditions. If they have a strong opinion of what you need for power, take it with a grain of salt.
Personal tastes are "all over the map". We hear of customers that are perfectly happy with 50 watts and others using 1000 watts. Without the option of listening with you, we have no way to give meaningful advice. The most reliable way to answer this question for your particular needs is by visiting a dealer or arranging to hear a pair of Magneplanars. If you listen to your music at your normal volume, in a room that is approximately the same size as your room, with an amplifier similar to what you plan to use, an accurate power requirement can be determined for your listening habits. This is a lot to ask, but it is the only reliable method of determining the power needs for a specific individual.
There is a persistent impression that the larger Maggies require more power. It is true that most customers with the more expensive models have more powerful amplifiers. But, the popular assumption is not correct. They typically have a larger budget. If and when you upgrade your electronics is a separate decision.

Back to top

"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare

IP Logged

Dave1210 Seasoned Member Posts: 959	Re: Decware + Magnepan Reply #5 - 02/23/15 at 00:45:32 Mark...what did you think of the speakers?
Back to top	IP Logged

mark58

Seasoned Member

Posts: 5647

Re: Decware + Magnepan
Reply #6 - 02/23/15 at 00:59:12

The Maggies were impressive in the store but I never had mine set up correctly and I don't think the Adcom Amp I had did them justice. They were too close to the couch...I had them in the den. I don't think these 6 footers can be used for near field listening like I was doing. I planned on putting them in the living room then they were gone. Go take a listen in a store where they can be judged fairly. Mark.

Back to top

"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare

IP Logged

Dave1210 Seasoned Member Posts: 959	Re: Decware + Magnepan Reply #7 - 02/23/15 at 01:21:22 Hi Mark. We have the 3.7's at a local audio shop and I have listened to them a few times in that environment. The main room is different than mine, but I have heard them sound fantastic in that room. I should just bring the ZMA there. Again, just looking to see if folks have experience with the combo on this forum. Best, Dave
Back to top	IP Logged

mark58 Seasoned Member Posts: 5647	Re: Decware + Magnepan Reply #8 - 02/23/15 at 01:33:19 Dave, that sounds like a great idea. You might sell a few Decware Amps after they get a listen to what the ZMA can do. Mark.
Back to top	"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils; The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare IP Logged

maddog07

Seasoned Member

seeker of truth

Posts: 585

Re: Decware + Magnepan
Reply #9 - 02/23/15 at 18:57:01

Magnepan's are incredibly inefficient/insensitive, like 84db or less I think and tend to respond best to lots of voltage. Torii mono's with 60 watts might be acceptable, but I'd bet good $$ that the speakers would sound very lethargic and slow.
I have a friend w/maggie 1.7's which sound pretty darn good with lots of watts from a class D amp with a linear power supply. And I have another friend with Magnepan 3.6's that uses the same ClassDaudio sds-470c amp, and the sound is more than acceptable, approaching as good as it gets if realism and life is your thing. The sds-470c really brings the maggie's to life.
We have never strapped my Torii to either of my friends Maggie's. I suppose I should try it sometime just to see how it sounds. However, I have hooked my Torii to my pair of Martin Logan Vista's, which are a couple of orders of magnitude higher sensitivity than maggie's at a stated 91db. And though the Torii will drive them. It's not the best synergy by any stretch of the imagination, basically just a smidge above background level volume and pretty slow and "dead" type of sound overall. I also have a Cary SLI-80, which when run in pentode mode will get the Vista's up and sounding acceptable, but they still respond to lots of sand amp watts the best. But still for "they are here" or "I am there" realism, the Torii and high-sensitivity, full-rangers with no crossover are the king.....

Back to top

Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva XMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Wyred STP-SE, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, Cary SLI-80, DM945's.....

IP Logged

Dave1210

Seasoned Member

Posts: 959

Re: Decware + Magnepan
Reply #10 - 02/27/15 at 12:04:12

MD...the 3.7's at our audio shop were being driven by a McIntosh MC-452 and sounded excellent (pre-amp was a Primaluna, can’t remember what model). Obviously that amp is a SS beast, but if you believe the meters on the Mac, we were only rocking about 40 watts on average for reasonable listening volume. Peaks were higher, but I think most good amps have considerably more power available before clipping (e.g. ZMA may be 100 watts).

I think it’s fair to say that 40 watts is 40 watts (on paper). As a guitar player who has owned both SS and tube guitar amps, 40 watts of SS always seems to sound different than 40 watts of tube (output impedance?, harmonics?, distortion?, transformer?). My experience tells me tubes sound louder.

While I don't think it would be a good scenario to run any amp at max all the time, I think it is feasible that the Torii Mono’s could drive Maggies, and maybe even the ZMA (although a pre-amp would likely be very helpful in both situations to get some juice behind some recordings), assuming you didn't want to listen too loud. Probably not the synergistic combination you are referring to though, but I suppose you never know until you try.

Back to top

IP Logged

jsm71

Seasoned Member

Posts: 134

Re: Decware + Magnepan
Reply #11 - 03/03/15 at 18:57:53

I had Maggie 1.7s prior to stepping up the JansZen zA2.1s that I have now along with the ZMA. My amp at that time was a Sanders Magtech, a SS beast @900 w/ch 4 ohms. That amp is also hailed as super for hard to drive full range ESLs. The JansZens (87dB) are easy on the amp becuase of a very narrow impedance range. Even still the ZMA's 40 watts is just enough for good volume, but a glorious match. I am aware of one other JansZen/ZMA owner. We talk off forum on occasion. He is pretty happy as well. The Torii I first bought from Steve played ok up to a point, but the ZMA sings in full glory.

Maggies, like a number of speakers, need to get into their happy zone to come alive, and the Magtech took them there with ease. They played thinly at low volumes. I love that the JansZens don't change character as volume levels change. They just seem to swell in size as you raise volume. I often have to listen while others are sleeping so it is great that low volume listening brings no penalty. The ZMA is also happy at all levels.

I think the ZMA can provide adequate current for Maggies but the wattage would limit volume too much. Their stated sensitivity is 86dB IIRC, not horrible but they are much harder to drive. Roger Sanders told me he designed the Magtech for Maggies and has sold a lot of them. He also designs a similar amp just for ESLs (the ESL amp - of course) that can absorb wild impedance swings. A tube amp would need to be quite above 100 watts/ch I think to get the Maggies into their happy zone.

Back to top

Decware ZMA, Cary SLP-98P preamp, JansZen zA2.1 speakers with JansZen speaker cables, Marantz TT 15S1 turntable, Lyra Delos MC with Bobs Devices SUT, Marantz SA8004 SACD/CD player, Morrow level 4 ICs, Decware and Shunyata PCs.

IP Logged

lLance

Seasoned Member

Posts: 164

Re: Decware + Magnepan
Reply #12 - 03/04/15 at 00:31:38

I am the other JansZen zA2.1/ZMA owner that JSM71 spoke of and yes I am very happy with this combo. There is good synergy here. I finally am modded, tweaked out and really enjoying the sound in my room. If you're considering electrostats you should try to find a pair to listen to.

I'm not familiar with Maggie's but my understanding they are somewhat room dependent. The JansZen zA2.1s sound phenomenal in my 13"x13" room. Zygi once told me that Steve really like these speakers a lot.

Back to top

ZMA, ZTpre, VPI Scout 1.1 & Soundsmith Zepher Cart, Janszen zA2.1 Speakers, PS Audio DSD, Berkeley Audio Alpha USB, PS Audio P10, Win 8 & J River app, Morrow Cables Triode Wire Labs #7 & Lessloss PC, voodoo AES

IP Logged

Dave1210

Seasoned Member

Posts: 959

Re: Decware + Magnepan
Reply #13 - 03/04/15 at 17:28:02

Ah yes, getting the panels to come alive. Thanks for the reminder on that front. I recall that in multiple listening sessions with Maggies, listening at lower volumes was just plain boring. The music wasn’t engaging at all. As you said, ‘thin’ might be the perfect description (i.e. lacking body/weight). I often wondered if the thinness was a result of the speakers, amp, or both.

With my higher efficiency/crossover-less speakers and a 2 watt SuperZen, turning up the volume slightly produces full bodied sound with great clarity (ZMA is the same way). And in reality, I do a lot of my listening at lower volumes too.

I suppose what I was poking at with the resistive load was what you mentioned with the JansZens. There isn’t a wide range of impedance across the frequency range, which should be an easier load (especially for a tube amp).

I have heard the JansZens once (at an audio show) and I was both impressed and disappointed at the same time. I think it came down to the SS amplification that was being used, and David was playing quite a few MP3’s, which really sounded awful (I think he was trying to show that the speakers could ‘rock out’, and weren’t just for jazz/classical, but with the bad source files and loud volume it was actually hurting my ears). That said, I could definitely hear the potential. The midrange had excellent presence and clarity, and the bass was very tight and articulate (I think I have an aversion for speakers with traditional ports, and the sealed bass on the JanZens was a breath of fresh air).

Back to top

IP Logged

jsm71

Seasoned Member

Posts: 134

Re: Decware + Magnepan
Reply #14 - 03/06/15 at 13:39:20

I was so happy when a friend brought over his Torii III and turned me on to Decware amps. I had been curious about a tube amp but never had the guts to bother to even try one. The Magtech amp, while outstanding with Maggies, was like tasting chalk paired with the JansZens; no charm whatsoever. In fairness to the Magtech, it was barely on becuase the JansZens don't pull much current so it wasn't in it's sweet spot.

David JansZen understandably limits the efforts needed at shows because it's just him, but I believe he does himself a great disservice not including a quality vinyl setup or partnering with high end tube gear. The playback of analog and tubes is what people need to hear. Another friend with the JansZens runs some nice Manley amps. Tubes baby! Smiley

Back to top

Decware ZMA, Cary SLP-98P preamp, JansZen zA2.1 speakers with JansZen speaker cables, Marantz TT 15S1 turntable, Lyra Delos MC with Bobs Devices SUT, Marantz SA8004 SACD/CD player, Morrow level 4 ICs, Decware and Shunyata PCs.

IP Logged