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Tube voltage regulation (Read 25065 times)
Fireblade
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Tube voltage regulation
02/09/15 at 12:15:19
 
I was wondering if the different Decware amps which feature Steve's  idea of input and output tube voltage regulation used to achieve noise filtering, are still able to regulate voltage?

I know Steve uses the principle to eliminate most of the noise imbedded in the power feed to the amp by forcing the incoming signal to 'jump' through the vacuum of those tubes, where most of that noise cannot make it, if I understand this correctly.

My question is, if that circuit arrangement is still capable of voltage regulation aside from noise filtering. If it does that, we probably won't require additional Voltage Regulation assistance if one already has an Isolation Transformer, for example.

Thanks for any inputs.
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Lon
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #1 - 02/09/15 at 12:42:56
 
I don't know specifically from the engineering and electrical standpoint, but my own experience with three amps that use voltage regulation and one phono preamp, all from Decware, and two different power regeneration components from PS Audio, is that power regeneration does improve the sound, considerably, from just using the amp connected straight to the wall.
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Fireblade
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #2 - 02/09/15 at 12:56:58
 
I'm sure that is correct, Lon. I'm just wondering if a middle of the road approach could be useful also, maybe combining my IT with a VR from TrippLite. I have asked TrippLite people and I'm still waiting for their reply, but they are not necessarily sound experts.

If you think adding a VR, as was earlier suggested by DBC, would more than likely improve things around, I'll give that a try. I just don't want to put more stuff in the system that may be redundant if Steve's tube voltage regulation circuitry (input and output) is already doing that. If not, adding the VR device from TrippLite (if they agree this is compatible with the concomitant use of the Isolation Transformer) would be a no-brainer.

Thanks for your thoughts.

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Lon
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #3 - 02/09/15 at 13:01:44
 
I was not a fan of the Tripp Lite isolation transformers in my system. . . . Ultimately I discovered they were adding a hash to the sound that was my biggest beef with the system. I was using two (one for digital and one for analog) and thought perhaps one was defective but when just one was in use I still got the treble edge I was hearing. It's possible something else was contributing that edge but I couldn't locate it. That went away when I got my first PS Audio regenerator. . . .

So. . . I don't know what to think about a Tripp Lite VR, no experience with that and I have become leery of Tripp Lite. It could improve the sound, but I don't know which way the result would actually be.
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Fireblade
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #4 - 02/09/15 at 13:08:50
 
Lon, please look at my last reply ... We missed each other there.

I follow your view, but I have not had any issues with my TrippLite IT. In fact, my system continues to be as quiet as ever, even if I put my ears an inch away from the speakers (which I did again the other day, making sure the new speakers were working fine). So my experience with this brand is different than yours.

I think I can always risk USD 150 (including shipping) easier than trying to accommodate the finest solution on hand. At the end of the day the sound improvement will depend on how variable is my incoming AC voltage, which is something I frankly don't know.

I just need to see if I can combine both devices in series, without drawbacks. TrippLite will reply to that.

Thanks again
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Lon
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #5 - 02/09/15 at 13:13:44
 
I didn't miss your reply's intent. I didn't have a noise problem per se with the Tripp Lite, I had a problem with the presentation of the higher frequencies that was fatiguing and I couldn't ease with tube rolling or cable swapping. If you want to risk the money on the voltage regulator, fine. I am unsure you'll get a desired result, but a lot of my own experience has been just that, trying something out. I wouldn't try it myself as I'm not sure it would improve the sound the isolation transformers were delivering. For me the isolation transformers were an unfortunate dead end and hampered my musical enjoyment a few years, but I am not surprised that others have had different experiences, that is the way of this hobby. But my experience has led me to not buy Tripp Lite products, rightly or wrongly.

I'm not telling you to buy a power regenerator, I wouldn't tell you to do anything, just offering that in my experience the power regenerators have made a significant improvement to the sound of the Decware products with voltage regulation.
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Fireblade
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #6 - 02/09/15 at 13:17:38
 
I agree, Lon. Thanks again!
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Lon
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #7 - 02/09/15 at 13:24:15
 
I'll add this more on point: On paper it seems to make sense and if I had been/were happy with the Tripp Lite isolation transformers it would make sense to try if it's an acceptable price point for risk as it seems it is. (I imagine it could always be tasked in another location as well). And you could experiment with it before and after the transformer, would be interesting to see if there were differences both ways.
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Fireblade
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #8 - 02/09/15 at 17:43:40
 
Sure. I think the real risk involved is if this device will eventually contribute to increase floor noise. That's something neither TrippLite nor anyone who has not used it in this particular 'sound' context can determine beforehand.
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Fireblade
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #9 - 02/10/15 at 12:38:45
 
I came across this interesting viewpoint on the whole power conditioning issue. I tend to agree with what is stated but realize the solution may not be as easy as just plug and play a power conditioning device.

Essentially, power conditioners may make things even worse if not carefully assessed. I think I may need to bring over an electrician and check my ground circuit and maybe create a dedicated circuit for my system.

Your thoughts are welcome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyI85XOKzZ4
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #10 - 02/10/15 at 17:58:27
 
I thought the video was a bit daft. The presenter seemed to talk a lot of nothing.
A good power conditioner will supply your amps with 120/240 vlts and with an ample power resevoir, see model rating  spec. They come in price ranges as to how much cleaning up they do and quality of parts. And a common/star earth.
Having a dedicated power line sounds fine and is fine as your household appliances wont add to the work your power conditioners filters carry out. Thats assuming your mains outlets do carry things like fridge noise whatever that may be.
The main excersise is to clean the stuff off of the mains which has been travelling miles.
If my mains fluctuated + or - enough then power regen would be considered as the answer.
The video presenter says high end audio equipment doesn`t use power conditioning, or less and less, I think he is, well, being daft.

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Fireblade
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #11 - 02/10/15 at 19:44:35
 
I'm considering mixing a Voltage Regulator along with my Isolation Transformer. Theoretically, both should take care of noise and other disturbances, plus the voltage regulation.

I'm just hesitant as to the possible increase in floor noise by adding yet another (VR) device in my AC path. Other than that, in paper at least, it seems a plausible conditioning setup.

On the video, I think the guy is taking it to the extreme, assuming the best solution for AC power problems is already imbedded in sophisticated audio components. Although it may be the case with some expensive designs, most components don't go that far just to remain competitive in price, plus the conditioning cannot be that substantial inside an already limited chassis space distribution.

The take home message for me is to assess any power conditioning addition before assuming at the outset it is going to improve AC power issues ... Problem is, it becomes more a trial-and-error thing than anything else.
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #12 - 02/10/15 at 21:23:34
 
Fireblade - I my experience, I would first start with  one or two professionally installed dedicated power line and have a new ground installed. I did this when we added a second story and the difference was obvious. Have them use good quality AC recpts. (I used hospital grade) and had a new 8 foot copper ground installed. I have a Tripplite HG500 ISO transformer on my new system (Rachael and ZP3, Oppo and TT) and the HG version of the 500 is silent and any mechanical hum is not present. But I am also the only house off my power transformer in my remote area. Good luck and happy listening, Chris.
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #13 - 02/10/15 at 23:33:53
 
FWIW, I also use the Tripplite HG500 but mine has an audible hum.  I put it on an isolation platform so the vibration doesn't go anywhere and it is inside a closed cabinet so I can't hear it.
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Fireblade
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #14 - 02/11/15 at 11:36:30
 
A dedicated line must be the perfect measure to take. I'm seriously considering it.

It seems any noise coming out of these Isolation Transformers is more a function of its surroundings/ground than an issue within themselves. Mine is not Hospital Grade and it has never made any noises.

Still waiting for the TrippLite people to confirm if it is a good idea to combine their Voltage Regulator with my IS 500.  Thanks!
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #15 - 02/11/15 at 16:06:25
 
I recently added a dedicated line.  I already had a PS Audio Power Plant Premier in the system and there was a noticeable difference with the dedicated line.  Unfortunately, that difference highlighted the inadequacies of my source, but I have taken steps to rectify that.

Pre-dedicated line, when I did an A/B with as PS Audio P10 in and out of my Triplite 250/Rachael based system, the impact and slam differences were quite large with the P10 in the system.  I did not hear the same differences when the ZMA was plugged into the P10.  I think it has to do with the large caps and power reserves of the ZMA.  So I don't know if this advances the conversation, but there is more to regen than just cleaning up power.

If I had to do it over again, I would begin with the dedicated line, then outlets/power cables and when I could afford it, go with some other treatment like regen as budget allows.

In my case, I think I ended up treating symptoms before addressing the primary cause.
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #16 - 02/11/15 at 17:02:58
 
Again, FWIW, I tried plugging in my Triplite HG500 using a cheater to cancel the ground.  It hummed in the same way as with the ground.  When the unit was new I opened the case and tightened everything.  Nothing seemed loose but the hum was slightly reduced when I put it all back together.  I suspect that even with the quiet units there is mechanical hum but it is somehow damped out better than in the noisy units.  I have no idea if the mechanical hum translates into the sound from the speakers.  I sure can't hear it.
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Lonely Raven
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #17 - 02/11/15 at 17:12:20
 
Mechanical hum is from vibration in the coils and possibly the laminates of the transformer. The only way to resolve that really is potting the transformer. That is, dipping it in something liquid that will harden once cool/dry and lock all the wrappings in place.

On guitar pickups we pot them in a wax bath, as the vibrations translate to high pitched squealing by the time it gets to the amplifier. But those are low voltage and pretty much zero heat devices. Knowing that pickups will...well, pickup the noise and send it down the line, I'm betting vibrations in a power transformer sends distortions on down the line.

Transformers can be ordered potted, but since our Triplite stuff is for general use, not hospitals or recording studios, they don't care about the humming transformers.

The Triplite I picked up is a hospital grade one, so it's much quieter. They must use a better transformer in it.

Typically potting compounds are epoxy or resins. It needs to be a pretty thin viscosity to really get into the coils and laminates. It helps if it's thermally conductive so you aren't encapsulating your transformer in an epoxy blanket. LOL

http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?Cat=1179754&k=potting%20compound

http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=potting+compound

I hope that helps some. I have a transformer I'm thinking about doing this to...I'm just too busy/lazy to get around it to.  
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Archie
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #18 - 02/11/15 at 17:29:41
 
LR, You've just increased my knowledge of transformers by an order of magnitude!  Given that I have relatively clean power (I think) would I be better off without the Triplite (Hospital Grade) to avoid the vibration?  Since you seem to be saying that it gets transmitted through my power cords into my amps.
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #19 - 02/11/15 at 21:15:55
 
I'm happy I could help in some way.

I'm not 100% sure that it gets transmitted to the amps in a form that would effect anything, but it makes sense that it could. (I don't have the tools to measure if it's true or not). Just like the guitar pickups squeal due to internal vibrations, I could see the windings in the transformer vibrating, which would cause fluctuation in the magnetic field, which IMHO would come down the pipe as distortion to your amp. Garbage in Garbage out as far as power supplies go.

I was saving my Hospital grade isolation transformer for my guitars for when the guitar room gets rebuilt, but if you don't find a deal you like on one, I'd be happy to loan you mine to see if it helps you or not. You'd just have to cover shipping and return it in a timely manner...or make me an offer on it. I'd hate for you to waste money buying one on my speculations, but I can say it did clean up my power a bit, and it much quieter than any other isolation transformer I've had in my listening room (note most of mine were industrial stuff that worked well, but noisy!)
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #20 - 02/12/15 at 01:24:59
 
LR, Was your Reply #19 aimed at me?  I have a Triplite HG500 that I've been using since I got my Decware amps a year ago.  It has always hummed.  I have a hard time understanding how that hum could be transmitted through the power cords but who knows?  I live with a relatively significant hum on my ZP3 channel and a barely discernable hum on my digital channel (at full volume, ear against speakers).  Before I got the HR1s and installed Decware Silver power cords and interconnects, the digital channel was dead quiet.

I'm not sure what the Triplite even does.  I don't hear a difference between using it and going straight from the wall outlet.  However, my circuit is essentially a dedicated one with HG outlets.  I also think that the rural power that I have tends to be cleaner than that in more heavily populated areas.  But that's mostly an assumption.
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #21 - 02/12/15 at 17:09:11
 
After posting the above about my Triplite HG500, I decided to see if it was really the case.  I discovered that there is now a discernable hum at higher volumes that is made much worse by having my ZMA plugged into the Triplite!  My CSP3 is still dead quiet using the headphones.  Further, when I plug the ZMA straight into the wall, I can still hear artifacts from just having the Triplite plugged into the same circuit and turned on.  My conclusion is that in my current configuration, the Triplite needs to come out.  Consequently, I will be plugging everything directly into my dedicated circuit.

One thing that I noted this morning is that the ZMA hum seems to be related to the Decware Silver ICs that I recently started using.  If I remove the ICs, the hum stops (barely audible).  It could be that the ICs are picking up the Triplite transformer and adding to the noise when the ZMA is NOT plugged into the Triplite but since the noise is much worse when the ZMA IS plugged into the Triplite, I am thinking that the Triplite transformer noise is being transmitted through the power cords.

I tried one further test.  With the Triplite plugged into either the same circuit as the ZMA or a different circuit, there is still a subtle increase in noise when I turn on the Triplite.  I think that the ZMA ICs are almost definitely picking up the Triplite transformer noise.  Whereas, when the ZMA is plugged into the Triplite, there is a 50% to 100% increase in the volume of the noise and a definite change in the pitch.  Moreover, the increase in noise is still there with the ICs disconnected.  Conclusion:  My Triplite HG500 is contributing noise to my ZMA both through the ICs and the power cord and will be coming out entirely.
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ZLC
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ZR2 (25th A Mods)
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mark58
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #22 - 02/12/15 at 17:40:03
 
Sounds Like the Triplite needs to go.  From reading posts on the ZMA, it would seem a conditioner/regenerator isn't needed.  But for your other components you may need one.  I like the Running Springs Audio Conditioners and own both a Jaco and a Haley.  My two cents. Mark.
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #23 - 02/13/15 at 01:07:07
 
The funny thing is that my CSP3 with headphones is absolutely quite, with or without the Triplite.  How can you tell if a Conditioner is needed?
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ZLC
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mark58
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #24 - 02/13/15 at 01:24:02
 
That question's above my pay grade.  Doesn't everyone need power conditioning?  Unless you have huge caps like the ZMA.  Do some research and when you read reviews, check out the Running Springs Audio line of conditioners. These links will get you started.  Mark.

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/tested-running-springs-audio-dmitri-ac-...

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-o65N31PKxAi/learn/the-power-conditioner-challenge.h...

http://www.howcast.com/videos/483777-Benefits-of-a-Power-Conditioner-Stereo-Guid...
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #25 - 02/13/15 at 12:19:57
 
Bummer ... Here's TrippLite reply:

"The products are not designed to be used in tandem and all Tripp Lite line conditioners and/or isolation transformers are only designed to be plugged directly into utility power with nothing in between."

So, the VR idea is off the window.  I think a dedicated line plus my existing (quite) IT are my best affordable choices ...

Then there's Furmann and Running Springs's Power Conditioners at several prices and capabilities ...

And then there's the PS Audio P3 Regeneration Plant.

Once I have a quote on the dedicated line, I'll decide which way is better bang for the buck.

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Archie
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #26 - 02/13/15 at 17:39:19
 
That reply from Triplite sounds like standard Industry CYA.
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ZR2 (25th A Mods)
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ZMA (25th A mods)
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #27 - 02/13/15 at 18:15:49
 
Archie wrote on 02/13/15 at 17:39:19:
That reply from Triplite sounds like standard Industry CYA.


Ditto that.

If a voltage regulator were plugged into the wall and then an Isolation Transformer plugged into the VR this would be my take (coming from an industrial manufacturing background).

I would be sure the voltage regulator was rated for at least two to three times the capacity of the Isolation Transformer. I would also be sure the draw on the Isolation Transformer was about half it's rated capacity.

1500 watt VR > 500 watt IT > 250 watt nominal load

Problem is most people don't follow these guidelines. We have all seen overloaded power strips. Thus the CYA on the part of the manufacturer.
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Fireblade
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #28 - 02/13/15 at 18:53:52
 
The proposition sounds good to me, that is why I seeked for the manufacturer's blessings ... I guess they don't know any better.

I'm still not discarding the idea altogether, as my amp has a mere 70 watts nominal power draw and my IT is 500 Watts. They sell 1200, 1,800 and 2,400 watt-rated VR's, so I had agreed with your take on the 1,200 choice even if it is not three times but 2.4 times  the IT max.

I'd hate to discard my IT, as it has worked flawlessly so far, but it would not correct for voltage fluctuations. Thus, Palominio's and others suggestion of a dedicated line seems the best choice. It will of course depend on the costs involved and the hazzle.

Am I correct in assuming a power conditioner would still perform its pretended task even when connected to one of my Isolation Transformer's outlets?
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #29 - 02/14/15 at 00:58:20
 
Before spending possibly thousands on power conditioning/isolation, what would it take to measure the actual voltage variation and noise on the line?  I'm asking the question not for a Tripplite solution but if one has to go to say, PS Audio.
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ZLC
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ZR2 (25th A Mods)
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ZMA (25th A mods)
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #30 - 02/14/15 at 12:55:49
 
Good point. The problem is that voltage fluctuations may have a distribution with different values throughout the 24 hr cycle. I suspect drops are more common during peak demand hours, but these may also obbey other circumstances. One would need to register a 24-hr plot over several days, including week-ends, to really assess the situation.

Since the Isolation Transformer in my case presumably filters noise, the voltage issue may be prevented inexpensibly with a decent Voltage Regulation device.

I just need to find out if these two devices can work together, and the configuration sequence suggested as best.
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #31 - 02/14/15 at 18:41:16
 
Fireblade, I agree with your approach.  Unfortunately for me my Tripplite IT was adding noise to my ZMA (but not my ZP3 or CSP3) so I had to take it out.  Now I need a different solution -- if there is even a problem!

Palomino, you posted above:

Quote:
If I had to do it over again, I would begin with the dedicated line, then outlets/power cables and when I could afford it, go with some other treatment like regen as budget allows.


Do you now think, with your dedicated line, the the PS audio equipment isn't needed?
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #32 - 02/14/15 at 20:06:19
 
Archie,

With those humongous CAPs in your ZMA, chances are you would not be too far away from clean and stable power. I would keep the IT for the digital components instead (since it is not creating noise in that context), as digital components are very vulnerable to AC pollution and disturbances so de-coupling that unsafe environment from those components is a step in the right direction, IMHO.
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #33 - 02/14/15 at 23:20:56
 
Problem is that even when not plugged on to it, the ZMA DSR ICs seem to pick up the Tripplite transformer.  I don't know why the same (well, half as long) ICs on the CSP3 don't.  The ZP3 ICs are shielded.  And that was with a fair distance between the IT and ZMA plus 1 1/2 inches of wood.
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ZLC
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ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #34 - 02/15/15 at 16:18:28
 
Looks as if the IC's are working as antennas to whatever the IT is emmitting. This is probably why the shorter (1.5 feet is the max limit) and shielded IC's on your CSP3 and ZP3, respectively, do not present that problem.

It's a shame you cannot have use for the IT, unless you get yourself new shielded IC's.

In my case, the DSR IC's are only 1.5 feet long and even though the IT sits exactly beneath, with a wooden slab between them, there's not a hint of noise or hum.

 

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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #35 - 02/15/15 at 20:14:20
 
Just something about the ZMA that doesn't like the IT.  I like what the DSR ICs do for the ZMA so I think I'll keep them and I need the 1m given the ZMA topology.  Like you, my CSP3 with the 1/2m DSRs was dead quiet around and plugged into the IT.

I'm thinking that I'll just stick with plugging straight into my dedicated circuit for the time being but I've also been looking at a PS Audio P3.  I'm not sure what a "might as well" buy point would be for one given that they list for $2500.  That would pay for a lot of source material or a better digital front end!
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #36 - 02/16/15 at 00:41:39
 
Yep, thats how I look at it myself. For me, aside from the IT, it is some voltage regulation and possibly a dedicated line. I could not spend that much in a P3, especially considering the current cost of my gear is relatively modest.
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #37 - 02/16/15 at 01:07:05
 
I think a P3 might be had for half list if used is okay.  I was corresponding with someone who has one for sale.  He made me realize how relative our investments in our systems are.  His is a $300K system including his $200K Wilson XLF speakers!  I guess if money really were no object ...

Let's see:  House or stereo?
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
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Re: Tube voltage regulation
Reply #38 - 02/16/15 at 03:15:08
 
Used is ok, but you know what? I just get such personal satisfaction and appreciation with every small but tangible sound improvement I can manage within all my constraints ... and that does not have a price!
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