Forums - Upgrading to a decware amp: DAC?

othrondir

Verified Member

Posts: 7

Upgrading to a decware amp: DAC?
01/24/15 at 22:29:55

hi All,

I'm going to buy a Decware amp and I have two choices:
- Which Decware (Mini Torii, 2x Zen Triode Specials, or the Torii)
- Which DAC (nightmare of options)

Current system:

Thunderbolt Mac Mini in the basement using cat5e (not ethernet, just the cable) to passively extend USB to a King-Rex amp powering Reference 3A mm deCapo speakers in my living room.

Mac mini provides AirPlay services for guests in the house, and there is a Mini to stereo RCA plug into the King-Rex for Ye olde random devices(tm).

I park near enough to my house that the iPod touch in my car can join the network and be automatically synced by iTunes. In addition, I occasionally use home sharing in my office to play music with itunes through some little audioengine speakers or an ALO audio 'International' USB headphone amp to a pair of LCD-2s.

I use the apple remote app to choose music and control volume.

Some observations:
-iTunes makes everything extremely convenient, and I don't want to ditch it.

-I'm aware that bitperfect playback from iTunes is only possibly with 100% volume, which means that I'm compromising quality by using the remote app to modify volume unless I use BitPerfect (the app) which intercepts those requests and does its own fancy volume modification.

-I was occasionally getting static through the speakers which required restarting everything. Rare, but annoying. I also might have solved this issue by replacing one of the cat5 patch cables which may have been damaged.

-The magical auto sync of the music in my car is f**ing awesome

-AirPlay in the house is necessary. If I'm having a party, I don't care about quality, I care about friends being able to stream from their laptops easily.
--------

Changes I'm considering:

iTunes ->
BitPerfect ->
Mac Mini w/Passive (or active if I need to) USB extended over Cat5e->
DAC (XLR or RCA)->
Mini Torii or 2x Zen Triode... or the Torii

There are two issues I see with this:
- Volume control with the remote app either doesn't work (DSD) or requires a DAC with verified digital volume control to work (google 'bitperfect volume control'). There's not a list of DACs that play nice on the bitperfect site unfortunately.

-I would need a DAC with an analog input (and thus input selection) so I can support someone with a random device in my house, or I would need to add a switcher to the system (which sucks, IMO)

Top DACs:

NODSD, AnalogIn, Emotiva Stealth DC-1 ($500)
DSD, AnalogIn, OPPO HA-1 ($1200)
DSD, AnalogIn: BENCHMARK DAC2 L $1795
(this seems like the winner based on functionality)

Other DACs:

DSD: Matrix Audio X-sabre 32b/384k DSD DAC (same dimensions as the minitorii!)
DSD: Wyred DAC-2 $2500 with DSD
DSD: YuLong SABRE DA8 (DSD) ($1200)
DSD: EXASOUND E20 DAC MK III DSD - $2,499
DSD: Chord Hugo DSD USB DAC & headphone amp: $2500
DSD: AURALiC VEGA: $3500
NODSD, PerfectWave Dac (NO DSD, but $2500 and suppopsedly awesome)
DSD: Merging Technologies Hapi + DA8P (2,500.00) (+1700 DA8P) = $4200
(I really like that this is over ethernet but it looks like I would have to abandon iTunes)
... or the Merging NADAC which at $7500 is inexplicably more expensive than their pro gear (?)

I'm surprised to think that the Oppo HA-1 and a MiniTorii might be my best bet.

I will admit that the way the Oppo looks has influenced my decision. The DC-1 and the Benchmark seems overpriced for what it is.

Opinions?

Back to top

IP Logged

othrondir

Verified Member

Posts: 7

Re: Upgrading to a decware amp: DAC?
Reply #1 - 01/24/15 at 23:01:32

Instead of updating the original post, I should note a couple things:

1. I am an idiot and didn't realize that both the torii and minitorii have 2 switchable analog inputs, so the 'analog input' requirement for the DAC just went out the window.

2. For those of you who may whinge about digital volume control, aside from the obvious advantage of convenience (I control this with my iphone), there's also ESSTech's paper. Google "Digital vs. Analog Volume Controls" - top link. With sufficient resolution headroom you're in good shape, so a DSD DAC with digital volume control that will listen to signals sent by BitPerfect should be ideal.

Thanks

Back to top

IP Logged

Kboe Senior Member God is in the Music. Posts: 77	Re: Upgrading to a decware amp: DAC? Reply #2 - 01/25/15 at 00:00:39 I can tell you Steves recomendation will be the Teac UD-501.
Back to top	NAD 516/316 - Klipsch speakers. Complete cable looks by belden, kimber, monoprice. IP Logged

DPC

Ex Member

Re: Upgrading to a decware amp: DAC?
Reply #3 - 01/25/15 at 01:01:33

I'll add a second to the Teac UD-501. The kit here uses a MacMini to the Teac then the Rachael. I see no reason to change any of it.

DAC's are like the latest movie in theaters, lots of love talk for a couple of weeks then we're on to the next one.

My opinion is that some folks over spend their audio quids on the latest DAC's. These same people will burn me to the stake for this opinion! Cool

Just sayin'

Back to top

IP Logged

Palomino

Seasoned Member

Posts: 2474

Re: Upgrading to a decware amp: DAC?
Reply #4 - 01/25/15 at 14:05:13

Your situation is very similar to mine mac-wise.

I kind of agree with dbc. I have four dacs sitting around because a new better one comes out every year. I didn't invest in a >$1k DAC until this year and there is a difference. I am already thinking about upgrading.

I do look for bang for the buck. Especially since I cycle through these.

My "2014" DAC is the chord qutehd. Now they have released the chord 2 qute. Tons of positive reviews on the chord qute and Hugo dacs. Hugo was proclaimed better than the qute but it was a portable DAC. Now the 2qute is basically the Hugo in the qute shell.

While I am not ready to shoot my mac I think I'd give some consideration to the new digital recorder/DAC Steve just released. See the sticky thread on this above.

Back to top

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers

IP Logged

Dave1210

Seasoned Member

Posts: 959

Re: Upgrading to a decware amp: DAC?
Reply #5 - 01/25/15 at 14:06:48

You have a nice list of DAC's there, including a pretty wide price range. Are you able to audition any of these DAC's in your system prior to making a decision? Something to consider (I did when making my DAC decision) is that some manufacturers offer an upgrade path for their DAC's to address obsolesce with this relatively fast moving technology.

The best way to make a decision is to get a couple in and see how they sound in your system. With the transparency of these Decware amps, especially running direct, the source is very important in my experience.

Back to top

IP Logged

Palomino

Seasoned Member

Posts: 2474

Re: Upgrading to a decware amp: DAC?
Reply #6 - 01/25/15 at 14:53:36

+1 on what Dave said. I just don't have the patience, so I read the reviews and take a gamble. My old dacs go to desktop or secondary systems.

Source is a big deal with these amps. I am thinking about putting a linear power supply and a SSD in my Mac mini. That would bring my investment in the mini I have to about a grand but I think it's important.

You might also consider a USB to spdif converter. I find this route to be preferable to the optical out on the mini.

So to summarize what I think my mac/DAC upgrade path would be:

1. Descent used DAC around a year old that sells currently for a $1k+(I also only buy used cars)
2. Good interconnects
3. USB to spdif converter (XMOS based)
4. Linear power supply
5. SSD

Back to top

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers

IP Logged

Lon Seasoned Member "Love without guts is worthless!" Philip K. Dick Posts: 23459	Re: Upgrading to a decware amp: DAC? Reply #7 - 01/25/15 at 15:37:35 And now you can also consider the new Decware DSD recorder. Nice product for those in the running for this sort of thing. (I'm not the target audience but it's nice to see that Steve is entering this arena again, and using a transformer based output,).
Back to top	HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1 IP Logged

Palomino Seasoned Member Posts: 2474	Re: Upgrading to a decware amp: DAC? Reply #8 - 01/25/15 at 16:26:30 Yes I'd agree. It would work with the mini plus the recording capabilities and balanced output. I do think addressing those upstream issues are still worth the $$. I'll probably go ahead with the power supply now that there is one available for a reasonable price.
Back to top	i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers IP Logged

Palomino

Seasoned Member

Posts: 2474

Re: Upgrading to a decware amp: DAC?
Reply #9 - 01/25/15 at 16:41:30

Btw the chord 2qute will be less than $2k. I did the conversion and it was $1500 but that seems too low.

No volume control on dsd though. I use both bit prefect and audirvana plus and no volume control. Lots of opinions out there but generally bit perfect is not one of the top two. I prefer audirvana.

On which amp I would say go with the Torii if you have the budget. I bought a used MKIII and now that I have it dialed in it is truly wonderful.

I think you need a minimum of 94db efficient speakers with the lower watt decware amps. That's my opinion. Lots depends on how well your speakers mate and how much your DAC/pre puts out in terms of voltage.

Back to top

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers

IP Logged

othrondir

Verified Member

Posts: 7

Re: Upgrading to a decware amp: DAC?
Reply #10 - 01/27/15 at 07:30:34

Thanks for the replies, particularly the UD-501, which is pretty cheap!

Does anyone know if it handles USB digital volume control commands?

I could just put a minitorii on top Tongue

Regarding Chord, I enquired directly and they do not support volume control over USB, which is a deal killer for me.

I would go for the Decware DSD if I had any CDs, but I don't... and iTunes is unfortunately such a huge convenience that I'm stuck with it for the moment.

Audirvana can't behave the same way as BitPerfect, can it? (Intercepting iTunes track/volume changes and mirroring them?)

Everyone, thanks VERY much for the advice.

Back to top

IP Logged

othrondir Verified Member Posts: 7	Re: Upgrading to a decware amp: DAC? Reply #11 - 01/27/15 at 07:36:43 I've just contacted TEAC to see if the DAC supports digital volume control over USB. OPPO has confirmed that the HA-1 does support digital volume control over USB.
Back to top	IP Logged

Palomino

Seasoned Member

Posts: 2474

Re: Upgrading to a decware amp: DAC?
Reply #12 - 01/27/15 at 11:50:31

Audirvana integrates seemlessly with iTunes. I control volume using adirvana over USB to a USB/spdif converter to the chord. The only thing I can't control is dsd volume. 99.9% of what I have is ripped redbook, high res or mp3.

Audirvana also gives a boost to the output without distortion. BitPerfect is not as loud.

I too am hooked on iTunes/Mac. I sit back and use my phone to control everything.

Back to top

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers

IP Logged

Lonely Raven

Seasoned Member

Jack of all Trades,
Master of None

Posts: 3567

Re: Upgrading to a decware amp: DAC?
Reply #13 - 01/27/15 at 15:08:34

I have the Oppo BDP-105 - I splurged on it back when I was getting back into audio a year and a half ago.

If the Oppo HA-1 sounds like the BDP-105, I feel it's a great DAC, but sounds a little etched on the high end compared ot the Teac (I've put my Oppo up against Steve's TEAC at the Decware shop). While I didn't feel one was *better* then th eother, the TEAC was certainly smoother sounding. Steve said he'd flat out take the TEAC.

Palomino's Chord sounds quite good and is for sure smoother then my Oppo. I think the TEAC is more neutral, the Chord is smoother.

I can't speak to soundstage, as the only soundstage I've really liked at Decware (lately) was when Steve was playing Master Tapes on the Otari reel to reel player.

Knowing Steve, and seeing what he's leaning towards lately - if this new DSD device can sound more tape like; I wouldn't hesitate to add that to my want list.

I've got the DirectStream DAC, so I'm heavily invested (and still paying it off). I think it does things none of the other DAC in the sub-$4000 range do. I would have to put it up against Steve's modified unit to get an idea of what I like better. My intuition is that the PS Audio way of handling everything in the DSD realm is right - but then, execution of a theory can make or break it.

Back to top

IP Logged

othrondir Verified Member Posts: 7	Re: Upgrading to a decware amp: DAC? Reply #14 - 01/28/15 at 00:28:32 @Palomino, ooooohhhhh will have to give Audirvana a try then! Regarding the Oppo, I did speak with Steve and am basically going to audition his DSD box against the TEAC and see what I think. :)
Back to top	IP Logged

Palomino

Seasoned Member

Posts: 2474

Re: Upgrading to a decware amp: DAC?
Reply #15 - 01/28/15 at 00:36:04

Audirvana has a free download. The plus version has the bells and whistles though. Others here like Pure Music. Not sure I know anyone here running amarra. Any of them are better than running straight iTunes.

I just found a page on a site for mojo music that has descent instructions on how to set up your Mac for the best music playback. I'll try to post when I am back on my laptop.

Back to top

i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers

IP Logged

Palomino Seasoned Member Posts: 2474	Re: Upgrading to a decware amp: DAC? Reply #16 - 01/28/15 at 21:37:47 I haven't tried any of these, but they seem logical: https://mojoaudiofiles.wordpress.com/optimizing-os-x-mountain-lion-for-audio-and...
Back to top	i7 Mac Mini with LPSU/SSD running Audirvana 3.5, Uptone Audio Regen on LPSU, Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, Ven Haus DIY Silver ICs, 25th Ann. Zen, PS Audio P5 Power Supply, PS Audio Power Cords, GR Research Speaker Wire, DIY Big Betsy and Crystal 10 Open Baffle Speakers IP Logged

othrondir Verified Member Posts: 7	Re: Upgrading to a decware amp: DAC? Reply #17 - 01/31/15 at 07:19:50 Track has reported that the 501 does not support digital volume control, so it's out.
Back to top	IP Logged