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Speaker Wire Upgrade? (Read 26183 times)
Archie
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Speaker Wire Upgrade?
12/15/14 at 01:13:16
 
I started looking for a nice upgrade for my speaker wires and then I found this link:  http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#thetruth

It throws a real challenge at me given the reasonableness of his science.  It's also kind of humorous.  Now I'm thinking that nice heavy gage stranded copper wires might be fine.  I don't know if Steve's amplifiers are sensative to wire capacitance or not.

Can anybody refute this?  I know that there are bound to be strong opinions about this.  I'm mostly interested in his opservations about speaker wires.  I would think that the use of power conditoner/regenerators answers his objections about house wiring.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
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will
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #1 - 12/15/14 at 01:58:24
 
I did not read the article. My ears tell me what I need to know and I trust my ears more than ideas, especially those of naysayers who say things that are simply not true based on my experience. On the other hand, I find I can often trust the pointers of folks with inquisitive and articulate minds.

My system is transparent and very revealing, but I hear a real difference in every speaker cable I have tried. Some are more close than others, but all are audible in how they individually present the music, subtle sometimes in some ways, but not subtle in other ways. It has always been clear in choosing one or another for a given system/room.

These different tendencies are notable enough that the same set may or may not be my favorite with the system modified by a new Decware amp, or a new source, or speakers... since in a revealing system/room, each part effects everything else.

In these things, I think the revealing thing is critical though. In many cases where one cannot hear system changes, the sound is either incomplete or unbalanced by the room altering the tonal range, by weak system links, or by physical or emotional issues. Any of these can modify the results of tests.

I only try stuff vetted by listeners that make sense to me, and returnable...That said, since I like to do the research, I rarely need to return things.

I guess that with our complex and highly variable systems, rooms, ears, and listening skills, "science" and "listening tests" can only be pointers. I have heard too many of the naysayer reports that are not relevant to my experience, and noticed too much similarity among them in their tone and need to prove themselves for me to even use my time reading them anymore.
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Archie
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #2 - 12/15/14 at 16:37:03
 
I suspect that there are mainly two camps, Objective and Subjective.  The two don't seem to blend well.  By nature I am more of an Objective and get swayed by the science.  I can't handle too many variables and like the simple and direct explanations.  This is not necessarily correct!  I have a lot of respect for people who can experience things beyond my perception (53 year old ears and not pampered!).

I've put my system together based on recommendations found on this Forum and I have no regrets.  However, as I get further into the nitty gritty, I start seriously wondering if my money wouldn't be better spent on vinyl.  

I am hoping that some will comment who will have read this article.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
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Lon
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #3 - 12/15/14 at 16:49:48
 
I read the article. I don't agree with many of its points to be honest. Guess I'm a subjectivist. Like Will I trust my ears and my experiences listening with others. Listening with others has been instructional, especially with my late wife and with my best male friend, neither of whom are audiophiles or like to spend money on things like audio equipment. That I can hear differences and that they can hear the same differences, whether to the same extent or not, gives me some sort of feeling that there is a science to what I hear, or better a reality to what I hear.

Synergy is the key. I can't live in a treated room or building, so I have tuned with cabling and tube and power and isolation components and different sources and amplifiers. It's been fun. It's been exasperating. It's certainly been expensive. It draws me into the hobby and roots me there.

I can agree with you in your final statement. As long and hard as I have worked at getting digital to shine in my systems, money may have been better spent on an all vinyl system. For the 'nineties and 'naughts I was in a constant search for music, and so much was available on digital that was not on vinyl at all or easily or affordably on vinyl that I centered on digital playback. But vinyl is so easily and relaxedly good sounding, and as time to listen diminishes I could be happy spinning albums when I have the time for listening and shed some of the quest for great sound and experimentation that digital sort of forced on me. . . .
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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Archie
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #4 - 12/15/14 at 17:15:45
 
Lon, I very much appreciate your insights.  I find that you seem to have a good balance between the technology and the pleasure of listening.  I've been influenced by some of your earlier experiences with the Silver Ref wires that Steve sells.  I am currently using OFC interconnects and speaker wires (and stock power cords).  I don't have the inclination to experiment and I'd like to be able to just settle in for the long haul.

One or two points that I seem to be seeing general agreement on is the need to "refresh" connections occasionally and the desirability/superiority
of bare wire terminations for speaker wires.  I guess that I am less interested in wringing out every last detail than not having any "blocks".

One reason that I like to get at "why" science says one thing while we may hear another is to make sure that I understand what's going on enough to ensure the simplest or more efficient solution.  Time and money are always factors.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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hdrider
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #5 - 12/15/14 at 17:27:16
 
I trust my ears more than any claim by a manufacturer. But I do believe in a synergy in using IC and speaker cable from one manufacture (and AC cords to but I haven't played with those yet). Early next year I will replace the Tributaries silver IC's that I am using with ZP3 and Rachael and start with Steve's cables. The whole reason I went down the Decware road was what I heard with my SE84CS and read on Steve's site and this forum.
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Lon
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #6 - 12/15/14 at 17:43:53
 
I don't dispute the science of things, I just think that the science is incomplete. We haer things that measurements don't easily account for, I don't think we understand the natures of all the materials and methods as well as we think we do. In time the science may catch up and have better conclusions to offer. . . .

That may seem arrogant or ignorant but it's how I am beginning to think . . . .
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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JD
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #7 - 12/15/14 at 18:18:11
 
I'm a big fan of using silver in my speaker wire and interconnects. Love Decware's speaker cables although they took a long time to break in.  Heard an immediate upgrade when using those silver Xhadow connectors on a couple pair of my IC's, wish I didn't because they are pricey but for you DIYers out there you can get em cheaper via the web.

my two cents

JD
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Lon
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #8 - 12/15/14 at 18:28:38
 
I've stopped the cables search with VooDoo cables which use both silver and copper conductors (not silver-plated copper). Just right for me, like having both silver and copper. I'll probably try their speaker cables at one point though I'm very very happy with the Mapleshade Double Helix Plus.
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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4krow
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #9 - 12/15/14 at 21:09:11
 
Lon, I have to second the Mapleshade cables, though I have only used the basic model. For a hundred bucks, nothing can touch them. I do also use a basic model of Kimber cable, and like that they have a softer sound. Anyway, it's been a gas trying out all kinds of products over time. I wouldn't trade the experience for another.
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Archie
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #10 - 12/15/14 at 23:28:42
 
Wow, after reading up a little on the Mapleshade wires, a new question emerges.  Stranded versus solid core wire!
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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4krow
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #11 - 12/16/14 at 00:02:59
 
I gotta say that the jury went home all frustrated on that one. The Kimber Kable that I often use is stranded, and has a smoother sound in general. This is good because my ZOB speakers tell all...sometimes too much. Then there is the Mapleshade wire. I like for the opposite reason. In my system it provides detail and good depth. So there you have it, and that's why I use banana jacks on both sets of wires---quick change.
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Decware 34I.3 integrated amp/Forte' 3 bass amp/Velodyne SMS-1 bass mngmnt system/Decware ZOB speakers/Audio Nirvana 8" bass drivers/Xiang Seng DAC/ LR Audio Computer/Rega Apollo R CDP/Emotiva ERC3 CDP/BPT 3.0 power cond.
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Donnie
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #12 - 12/16/14 at 00:36:59
 
I sure do like my Mapleshade stuff. But I am stone deaf.
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will
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #13 - 12/16/14 at 08:29:49
 
Sorry I couldn't stand to read that article after I got the gist of it. I too like science, and it is interesting in terms of wires. For most good cable makers (to me good value is part of "good') the theories are based on wire chemistry, how they are drawn, stranded or not, total gauge, individual wire thickness, insulation values, geometry (one wire, or aggregates of twisted/braided)...it all has a basis in science. But finally, like Decware, it is usually refinements from listening that bring cables to life.

Then there are connectors, the solder, the total gauge and materials, and how they work for higher power versus lower power, more warmth or more transparent, neutrality, more or less bass or high extension....on and on. But after all, I guess following good design and technique with sound exploration for refinement, this is science in action, working to quantify what does what and why so that we can make cables that sound better.

A lot of folks say straight wire connection is best, and this may be true as long as the wires are kept clean and are in optimal condition. But I have heard good connectors put on after listening with straight wire connections and I think this can sound very good too and is a lot more convenient if you change stuff around. I have heard it several times... clean connections can really make a difference. I like deoxit for cleaning and then Deoxit Gold for conditioning the connectors. I find with the Gold that it sounds best if it is put on, and pretty much immediately polished off.

Very generally speaking, three main design things seem consistent with the cables I have tried...I tend to prefer stranded over solid wires, the solid tending to be a little more rigid and hard sounding; and a combination of smaller wires twisted or braided seem more resolving across the bandwidth than one big solid or stranded wire. Also, if a cable of a given design sounds lean and low on bass, a bigger aggregate gauge of the design will often solve this. Or the opposite...if it is too big on bottom, a smaller total gauge will likely lean it down.

I don't know, even with a simple cable...the known variables are vast enough that no matter how hard we try, I don't think the science can get us there in terms of love of a sound. And then there are all the things we have yet to fully quantify in terms of the science of cables as they relate to loving the sound!

That said, you may well be in a good place to buy more records! No one else can decide if our system is optimized to satisfaction. But no one can tell me that electronic readings from cables are all that are necessary for a sound I can fall in love with either.

Jeez, my 58 year old ears can hear different fuses! Speaking of which, like Lon's experiences, when I try something new, it is always interesting to hear from my wife. Often she will say from the table, or the adjoining kitchen..."that sounds great, what did you do?" Or if I am somewhat on the fence about an adjustment or change, or really excited about one, I will ask her to AB it for me, most of the time having no idea what the A and B even are. This happened a few months ago trying three different fuses in my power re-generator. As usual, in her own words, she described what I heard, and agreed with me on the best one without any indicator from me which I liked before hand. This is fun, and her views are clean as she has only an interest in the sound for the sake of the beauty of the music...no audiophile machismo...no scientific bias....no ego objective at all. And since our "tastes" for what makes real sounding music are pretty much the same, this ABing is useful "science" for us!

But I would be inclined to believe my perceptions and preferences anyway. For me the system/room is an ongoing art project, a creative process around a "living" thing. I just have a lot of fun refining the sound, and enjoying the refinements to no end. For this, I like having a small variety of great sounding ICs, power cables and speaker cables, for doing occasional reorganizing for optimal system synergy. But my system sounded great soooo many adjustments before now that I could have stopped playing around a long time ago. Had I done that though, it would not be what it is, which is spooky it is so captivating!

Its all so personal and full of variables, I don't guess there are clear answers, only pointers I suppose. But the gift of Decware and other great music making gear? Its potential is so high, it can be a mind bending tool in our personal relationship with the world of beauty...
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Archie
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #14 - 12/17/14 at 07:17:24
 
Has anybody tried pure silver, solid wire speaker cables?  Tempo Electric sells some that look interesting.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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Lord Soth
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #15 - 12/20/14 at 08:19:09
 
Hi Archie,

I'm using clearday double shotgun speaker cables.
These are pure silver solid core cables.

They have received very good reviews.
The sound is very transparent without being too analytical.
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ski bum
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #16 - 12/20/14 at 16:29:18
 
The Roger Russel article is fact based and on the level.  You can believe what the evidence supports, or you can believe what you read from those who explicitly and willfully deny the evidence.

The choice is up to you.

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Archie
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #17 - 12/20/14 at 19:07:30
 
A few days ago I ordered 14 gauge 99.9% pure silver wire and 6 gauge teflon spaghetti tubing to make my own speaker cables.  My cost for the two 11 ft cables will be under $300.  That includes the 9.4 oz of silver (currently trading at $16/oz -- hey, it's an investment, right?).  I was influenced by what I've read from Tempo Electric and others.  I'm not going to use any connectors.  There shouldn't be any "magic" to making good cables so long as they are simple and pure.  I hope!  With my HR-1s on the way, things could get exciting real soon.

After doing more investigating I am fairly sure that there is much more to all of this than the "science" admits.  As sort of a scientist myself, I know that they can be more prejudiced and faith-based in their approach than the layman.  I do think there are people with heightened senses who experience things more profoundly than people like me.  I like the science since in can offer a framework within which to narrow the variables and make informed decisions.
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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mark58
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #18 - 12/20/14 at 19:15:15
 
When I was getting back into Hi Fi and putting together my system, I read much of the Roger Russell site and others on the "Wire" debate.  I'll admit I'm a skeptic at heart and came to a  compromise with which I'm happy.  I bought "audiophile grade" wires cheap...used or via auction.

In my two systems I'm using Zu Audio Libtec 10 foot speaker cables with bananas.  My last pair via auction for about $152... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Zu-Audio-LIBTEC-10-foot-3-0m-matched-hi-fi-or-mastering-...

I use Decware Silver Reference interconnects everywhere except the ZP3 where I use a shielded interconnect...a Zu Audio Gede.

Power Cords are Zu Audio Mission in the main system except for the ZP3 where I use one of Steve's DHC-1 silver power cords.

Are these the best?  I doubt it.  Could I tell the difference between the "best" and what I have?  Don't know and don't care...Back to the tunes.  Mark.
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"The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not moved with the concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, deceptions, and spoils;
The motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Hell. Let no such man be trusted." William Shakespeare
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Archie
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #19 - 01/01/15 at 17:01:19
 
I made my pair of 10ft 14ga pure silver speaker wires and have them hooked up to my new HR-1s.  They are not bi-wired as with my previous wires.  I left long leads on the speaker ends so I use them to go to both the lower and upper speaker terminals -- no jumper wires.  Honestly, I don't hear the wires at all.  I'd describe the sound as pure, clear running water.  Certainly NOT bright.  I've read that silver's reputation for being bright could be due to the prevalence of silver plated copper which some claim is bright due to skin effects in plated wire.

While I prefer the sound to my old OFC wires, there seems to be some psychology at work here too.  Pure silver has an aesthetic quality that other metals can't match!  The better my system looks, the better it sounds to me.   Wink
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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Lon
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #20 - 01/01/15 at 17:08:56
 
Glad you are getting such good sound! I may try silver speaker cables sometime, but I'm very happy with the copper ones I have now. Frankly I'm tired of making changes! Maybe 2015 will be the year of less audio changes!
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HR-1,ZTPRE,ZBIT,ZROCK2,SEWE300B,CSP3-25mod,Taboo MkIV;Rega RP3 all GrooveTracer mods;PSAudio:PST+DSD,P15,NPC,PowerBases,AC-12 pwr cbls,Reference spkrcbls;Mapleshade SamsonV3;VooDoo:Cremona+Amati interconnects, IsoPods; headphones:Sennheiser HD800S,ZMF Ori,Oppo PM1
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Archie
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #21 - 01/01/15 at 17:25:56
 
I hear you!  Right now I'm trying to build up my baseline so I don't have to change after that.  Ha ha ha ha ha ...
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
Silver Cabling
DIY Isolation platforms under amps & TT.
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will
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #22 - 01/02/15 at 18:11:54
 
Archie ,

Your new cables sound nice...clear, but not bright.

I have heard the gamut with silver ICs from more clear/bright to clear and warm. Seems that though there are characteristic qualities from different metals, metal purity, metal combinations, strands or solid, wire shape, dielectrics, gauges, twisting or braiding choices etc, but how they are combined in different designs make for different sounds, confusing in analysis. In the end, it seems the design can overrule some expected pre-conceptions and it finally comes down to whether we like it in our system or not.

It is cool that those cables you made are more purely what they are, ruling out a lot of variables and making them easier to read. Virtually no dielectric effect, pure silver, 14 gauge. But even then, (depending on amp power and speaker impedance and efficiency) if you made a 12 gauge pair, or a 18 gauge pair, with all else the same, you would likely hear it. Or if you twisted 2 - 18 AWG to approximate a single 14 (15 actually)…….. probably would hear that also.

I have tried pure silver wires that were very clear, and seemed brightish, but I think this was likely the characteristic silver clarity combined with the tonal balance with my speakers and amp, that they were too small to pull the bass range into balance. They were also a twisted conglomerate of smaller gauge solid wires rather than one larger solid wire.

I don't know where the dividing line is with silver, but it would seem that like copper, at some size, bigger wires, and how the signal travels the wire would be different, causing odd distortions/smearing. Whereas, using smaller wires combined to make the same gauge, and twisting them can clean it up. I have heard a difference twisting a +/- pair of 8 AWG Decware cables, I don't know in this case… EM,RF? …..., but audible. This is not to say that one or the other will sound better to one person or another. Anyway with Clearday cables I had tried singles, and then shotguns with more wires, and since there was a notable increase in low end between these two, I was pretty sure double shotguns would have gotten me into a nice balance, but I wasn't willing to risk it at the time since the size cable I needed was not returnable.

I have also heard sliver plated copper wire, like the Morrows I have in now, that are relatively on the warm side of transparent…..lots of variables, and amazing how Decware helps reveal it…this I LOVE…
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All Modified: Balanced Transformer-DIY Strip/Shunyata Defender-RevolutionMacMini/Amarra-KTE Singxer/Gustardx20pro-ZBIT-CSP3-OldChen 300B/845, Torii IV, Simple Wave 300B-HR1/SVS Micro3000sub-Pi PCs-DIY PCs, ICs, USB, I2S, Speaker-SR and aluminum w ball bearing feet
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Archie
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #23 - 01/02/15 at 23:43:38
 
My problem is too many variables and either my ears or some weak link in my system (probably ears) doesn't let me tease out the nuances.  I generally pick my "experts" and go from there.  That's how I ended up with my Decware system.  I put my trust in Steve and members of this Forum.  I sort of did the same with the speaker wires.  I found a source that seemed trustworthy and piggybacked onto his years of research/listening.  Frankly, I was so bewildered and confused by pretty much everything you mention in your post.  I remember when I stated doing higher level math in engineering grad school, where to solve an equation you have to assume a solution and then see if it works.  High end audio seems to be like that.

Since I am also breaking-in my new HR-1s I am concerned by what you have to say about bass and single vs stranded wires.  However, I am hearing more base as the HR-1s season despite having pulled my multi-strand 12 ga OFC wires out of the system.

I feel way out of my league when I read what you and other's are hearing from subtle changes in their systems.  Just gasping for breath here!   Cheesy
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Lon
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #24 - 01/03/15 at 00:08:56
 
Yes, it really can be disorienting with a lot of tweaks and changes at once, especially during break-in of an amp or speakers. Your experience matches mine: the bass starts slowly coming in, stays tight but becomes fuller if that makes sense. And as Will mentioned, things keep improving as months go by, but after a few months I finally quit noticing significant identifiable changes and just eased into deep enjoyment, and that enjoyment has deepened over time. The HR-1s are just amazing speakers. They ended my speaker hunt, that's for sure, I'm glad Steve and Bob are coming out with new ones, but I'm covered!

I'll tell you Arch I thought I knew a little about sound before my Decware experience (and I did, knew about music sound, and knew vintage stereo and a bit about modern solid state) but it's when I started on the Decware journey that I began to really hear deeply and recognize subtle things. I predict you'll be making a lot of discoveries and adding to your knowledge base as time goes by. . . you've got the good stuff now!
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maddog07
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #25 - 01/03/15 at 06:19:15
 
agh... speaker wire.  if ever there was a controversial subject that's more volatile than politics or religion, it has to be "the sound" of wire.
Personally, for the objectivists.... I think perhaps there is some aural phenomena involved with hearing that humans do not fully understand and have yet to figure out how to measure.
And let us not forget that hearing is a "perception" and a personal one at that.  Though we may all be born with and retain commonalities regarding hearing.  The brain gets involved along with our pinna, ear canals numerous other small delicate organs, and "nerves" and perceptions that are formed over time.  This all impacts exactly how each individual interprets sound.  And because it's a perception... if you think you hear it - then you do - end of story.  No one can argue or tell you what you hear or don't hear.  Just because one person doesn't hear some particular sonic trait, doesn't prove that somebody else can't.
For those of us classified as subjectivists... we clearly hear differences in at least some wire.  
In over 30 years I have tended to find stranded wire, for the most part to be kind of hashy, sizzlely, spitty, etc.  Kind of unnatural sounding.  And in general, wire insulated with the various types of insulation, each  tend  to sound a certain way too - IMO and perception.    
After listening to and owning meany different brands and "types" of wire, both metallurgy, wire shape, insulation and weaving geometry over the years I have formed some "opinions" that tend to hold true "for me"... most of the time.  One can always run across an exception every now and then.
Me and my group of audio buds conduct, as best we can, ABX testing of gear, especially wires.  We can only change wires so fast, but we use a volt meter to set volume measured at the speaker binding posts using white noise and do not change volume between wires.  We conduct the tests on each other without the listeners knowing which wire they are listening too.  We simply assign A, B and X to the trials.  Only the guy swapping wires knows what is connected.  The listeners only know A and B.  The conductor of the test is the only one who knows what X is for a given trial.
Most of the time, in fact nearly ALL the time, all of us can detect "differences" in the sound of the cables in a more than statistically significant manner.
What I find really fascinating, actually more interesting than the fact that we do in fact hear differences in "wire", is that even though all of us hear the differences, and all of us almost always agree on what the differences are... we don't always all prefer the "same" cable!
So... what does this tell us?  You have to listen to the wire, the amp, the DAC, etc., in your room, with your equipment and with your ears to see if "YOU" like the way it sounds.

Now having said all that.  There is a wire that I have been using for about 7 years now that I think performs the best across more combinations of gear than anything I've ever owned before - Goertz Audio copper and solid silver foil speaker wire and interconnects.  I thought... perhaps a few months ago that it was going to be unseated by something else for a bit.  But this was before my high-efficiency full rangers were fully settled in.  And while I was still tube rolling a bit and breaking in tubes and experimenting with my Torii.  After the dust settled... I put the Goertz back in the system... and once again I quickly crowned it king again.

I own both silver and copper versions of both IC's and speaker wire.  Goertz doesn't even offer the silver speaker wire anymore - cost prohibitive I suppose.  
But I gotta tell ya... in my crossoverless full-rangers, which are the most revealing and resolute speakers I've ever heard... there is not a huge difference between the copper and silver Goertz speaker wire of the "same approximate gauge".  The silver is slightly more resolute and open sounding up top.. but the recording has to be top-notch before you can reliably hear this difference.  The copper is slightly less "clear" sounding overall... but its something I find desirable on anything but pristine recordings.  The copper presents all the detail that the silver does, its just not quite as "noticeable".  But we are talking subtleties here.

I actually hear bigger differences between the copper and silver Goertz IC's than their copper and silver speaker wire.  I have no explanation or even speculation on this.  Differences between the two metals in the IC's are consistently distinct.  The copper is characteristically a bit warmer, slightly more forgiving, a little laid-back as compared to the silver.  Pick the flavor to best suit your system and preferences.
The Goertz copper IC's are not expensive even new, but can be had for nearly nothing used.  The silver one's are cheap by audiophile wire standards also.  All my Goertz IC's are the "purl" versions that have the foils twisted inside a polymer sheath.  There are some flat IC's too, but I have never owned any of these.  They call the 25 gauge versions micropurl, while the heavier 21 gauge are called Triode Quartz(TQ2).

The copper speaker wire is generally pretty inexpensive used as well.  The silver speaker cable is pretty rare used and not available new to my knowledge.  I still have an 8 ft. 9 gauge silver(model AG-2) pair, but I listen to the copper MI-2's(10 gauge) most of the time.  Goertz even has 7 gauge models, but I've never even seen a pair of these.  I also have a pair of their biwire Python model, which is copper in the twisted form like the IC's. I don't believe they make this model anymore.

If you ever get a chance to try some Goertz wires(foil) in your rig - don't pass it up - I think you'll like it.  It got me off the wire merry-go-round... and I'm still off.
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #26 - 01/03/15 at 10:55:59
 
maddog, there is a pair of Goertz alpha core veracity sp cbls on e-bay and they remind me of my own Townshend Isoldas but without the sheathing. Townshend say theirs are the best in the world and when I was hunting for sp cbls I wanted something to last forever. So many manufacturers sell a sliding scale of cbls depending on how much you have in the pot for a  pair, so you drop in somewere along their line. I couldn`t be doing with that, I`d be wondering all the time what the next pair up sounded like. So, like the Decware ZP3 research, but pre my Decware, I ended up buying a pair of Isoldas ( the only sp cbls they make ) and have been very happy with them. They turn up for sale and aren`t v/expensive. It turns out that I should have bought a 2mtr pair as 3 mtrs have to be draped which can be awkward.
So I was wondering, maddog, if you`d a/b`d the Isoldas or think that the `ribbon` type cbls have something going for them that wires dont.
I think also that the Isoldas have two layers or ribbon instead of one.
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #27 - 01/04/15 at 00:49:52
 
Yes, I agree with Lon Archie, good equipment lets us hear more! It is a learning experience, but how can we get articulate with listening if it is not there to hear! But as you suggest, weak links hobble everything else and if you feel you have them, I think it is well worth sorting out in time.

Sorry to set up a step into confusion. I think the main thing is that if we get what we like, we got the right things. And as you say, if you trust excellent sources like Decware and your cable folks, then it is really good material for tuning your sound to tastes, system, and room. Then we can likely learn to love it because it lets the music out.

I think how much bass the gauge of various designs will let through is the thing more than whether they are solid or a group of twisted smaller wires. In fact, in my experience, speaker cables with more "skin effect" have a sense of more bass in some ways, sounding bigger from being more mushy... less articulate. Silver being such a great conductor, it would seem 14 gauge may well be enough for your speakers, but I bet your guys you got them from would have good opinions from their tests. The twisting or braiding of smaller wires (compared to the same total gauge of one bigger) just seems to tighten things up if there are noise or distortions from skin effect with bigger wires of the same type. The greater articulation gives more clarity to the bass, but also elsewhere, and can get a little chilly in the mids and highs (or not) depending on the design.

I have not looked at this in a long time, but it seems less silver can be equal to more copper AWG in terms of transmission, and I don't know at what point the silver "skin effect" becomes noticeable. But if your bass is tight and clear as the speakers and wires burn in, it would seem all is well relative to "skin." Perhaps another question for your cable guys?

I get it…this is serious business, the potential of amazing music in the home. And we want to spend our money well! Sounds like you are getting really good sound as things burn in!
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #28 - 01/04/15 at 01:17:52
 
Will,

I made my own cables using wire purchased from a precious metals place and PTFE tubing from McMaster-Carr.  The cable guy I am referring to both sells ready made cables and maintains a DIY sight:  http://www.laventure.net/tourist/cables.htm

I followed his advise for the silver wire gauge and oversized insulation jacket (14 ga and 6 ga respectively).  He also said that the wire hardness was a bigger factor than purity.  I used 99.9% pure and dead soft.   As I said, there are just too many variables and his seemed like a reasonable approach.

The sprung speaker platforms I just added might be much more controversial!
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ZLC
Technics 1200G TT w/ Ortofon Jubilee MC cart
ZMC1
ZP3 (25th A Mods)
ZR2 (25th A Mods)
CSP3 (25th A mods)
ZMA (25th A mods)
Homemade Big Betsy Speakers (F15s)
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maddog07
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #29 - 01/11/15 at 05:06:34
 
Marky...

I have never heard of, seen or heard Townshend Isoldas speaker cables.  But of course being an avid audiofool of over 30 years... when I read your post, I of course had to go check it out.
After some research and anlaysis, I would have to say the Isolda's and Goertz cables are more alike than different.
the Goertz flat foil cables also have two foil conductors per cable, stacked on top of each other very closely, same as the Isolda's - one for the positive lead and one for the negative.  This makes for a low inductance design.  Both Townshend and Goertz advertise 4-6 ohm impedance for their speaker cables.

Goertz is a subsidiary/division/etc. of Bridgeport Magnetics.  This company makes specialty transformers, inductors and other high precision electrical products including flat magnet wire.  If I were speculating, I would guess that one of the owners/execs of Bridgeport Magnetics is an audiophile, and decided to create a division to cater high performance interconnects, speaker wire, isolation transformers and balanced power supplies to the high-end audio market.  I have spoken to them on the phone a few times over the years and they have been very helpful and customer service oriented and seem to be "in to" audio.  I could not say for certain that Bridgeport actually manufacturers their own foil wire, but they may.  I don't know if they buy raw copper ingots and then heat, draw and form the wire themselves or what.  Everybody knows the Kimber family owns copper mines, or used to anyway and sourced their own copper - who knows. But at a minimum I think Goertz/Bridgeport Magnetics is making their own flat foil wire.

On the Townshend website, on the Isolda page
--> http://www.townshendaudio.com/isolda-speaker-cables
there is a cut-away picture of the Isolda. Where I'm heading here.. is that I'm pretty sure that Townshend does not manufacture their own wire that they make the Isolda from... I'm speculating that they buy it somewhere... and judging from the Isolda cutaway... I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Townshend buys the wire from Bridgeport Magnetics.  If you look at the Bridgeport product they call Laminax..
--> http://www.bridgeportmagnetics.com/laminax.html
particularly the C-series or EC series... it looks nearly identical to the Isolda cable.  Townshend also specifies that their foil is insulated with "polyester".  You can specify Polyester, Nomex or Kapton insulation at the time you order the Bridgeport Laminax flat wire.  Hmmm... similarity continues.  Goertz advertises that their cables are insulated with "polyester terapthalate".

Anybody can call up Bridgeport Magnetics and purchase Laminax.  Which you can get darned near anyway you want.  You can specify a specific overall awg/current rating you need, and the width of the foil you want, and they will tell you what thickness it needs to be.  Or you can specify a thickness and they will tell you what width it needs to be to reach the target AWG.  

So... what's the gist of all this?  Whether Townshend gets their copper foil from Bridgeport Magnetics or somewhere else is irrelevant really.  But nobody can deny that the Isolda and Goertz speaker cables are very, very, very similar.  It looks like Townshend solders on a regular round wire pigtail to the foil.  Goertz makes a spade and a banana that connects directly to the foil.  Goertz also sells a tool that will notch the foil so that you can connect it directly to a binding post with no spade or banana.  As a lot of designers will tell you, raw wire, no spade, banana or pin is best - bare wire is best.  Just like the best insulation is "no insulation"(air).  The best crossover is no crossover, etc.  You can also buy Goertz's spades, banana's and RCA jacks by themselves.  I, like you, have found... long term satisfaction and contentment with the flat foil speaker cables.  I also use Goertz foil IC’s.  Several of my audio buds do too and have for years.... I think there is something to the flat foil wire/conductor thing..... at least to my ears and several guys I know.  For the members of this forum, I think the flat foil cables are certainly something worth hearing if they never have.
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Decware Torii MK3, Wyred4Sound DAC2, Theta Digital Miles, Emotiva XMC-1, Emotiva XPA-5, Aesthetix Calypso, Wyred STP-SE, Martin Logan Vista, Audio Nirvana 12" Alnico's, PS Audio PW P5, Goertz, Kimber, Nordost and DIY wires, PSA pwr cords, Cary SLI-80, DM945's.....
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Dave1210
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Re: Speaker Wire Upgrade?
Reply #30 - 01/11/15 at 13:18:08
 
MG Audio also makes foil cables that get very good reviews.  Significantly more expensive than the Goertz cables though.  

http://mgaudiodesign.com/speakercables.htm

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